Door bar rules?

[ekim952522000]

Ok so I am building a ITR ITR and am reading the SCCA section "9.4.2 showroom stock roll cage" (<---THat is the right section right?)and I have a few questions?

1. The door panels have to remain in unless I run "NASCAR" style door bars correct?

2. If I only do a "X" on the passenger side am I allowed to remove the door panel and all the "insides of the door"

3. Does running "NASCAR" door bars allow you to remove all the wiring from the door, is it considered part of the window operating mechanism? (Or does it have to be relocated?)

4. I am little unclear on what the part of the rule that reads "The inner door strructual panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this type of side protection" is saying. Is that saying that if I run "NASCAR" door bars to the outside of my door that I have to leave the top of the inner door structual panel in the car?

[Speed Raycer]

Search is your buddy :D

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21934

[Xian]

Ok so I am building a ITR ITR and am reading the SCCA section "9.4.2 showroom stock roll cage" (<---THat is the right section right?)and I have a few questions?

1. The door panels have to remain in unless I run "NASCAR" style door bars correct?

2. If I only do a "X" on the passenger side am I allowed to remove the door panel and all the "insides of the door"

3. Does running "NASCAR" door bars allow you to remove all the wiring from the door, is it considered part of the window operating mechanism? (Or does it have to be relocated?)

4. I am little unclear on what the part of the rule that reads "The inner door strructual panel may be modified, but not removed to facilitate this type of side protection" is saying. Is that saying that if I run "NASCAR" door bars to the outside of my door that I have to leave the top of the inner door structual panel in the car?

Here's my understanding from prior threads and the GCR:

1. Kinda correct. If your door bars extend into the door then you can "gut" the door but I believe that the factory side impact beam would need to remain.

2. If your "X" extends into the door at all you can gut it.

3. Wiring would need to remain.

4. You can cut out as much of the inner metal part of the door panel as needed. If you do this then you shouldn't need to retain the actual inner door skin.

Christian

[ekim952522000]

Here's my understanding from prior threads and the GCR:

1. Kinda correct. If your door bars extend into the door then you can "gut" the door but I believe that the factory side impact beam would need to remain.

2. If your "X" extends into the door at all you can gut it.

3. Wiring would need to remain.

4. You can cut out as much of the inner metal part of the door panel as needed. If you do this then you shouldn't need to retain the actual inner door skin.

Christian

Thanks for the replies How do I know how much is needed? am I over thinking this....

The way I am reading is if I run nascar door bars then I am free to make the inside of my door look like the first picture.

But the other half of me thinks it should have been like the second picture with the shaded area being the inner door panel that should not have been removed.

[Speed Raycer]

Your second pic is "correct". You're only supposed to cut as much of the metal as required to allow the door to close and have it be safe. IMO, the 1st pic went too far.

[lateapex911]

I disagree...where does it tell you that?

The rule reads:
"...the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed only if the door bars extend into the cavity."

So, who is to say how much is too much?? That's REALLY going to be a mess at protest time...there is no guide...it just says "not removed".

The result is that the first picture appears to be illegal, because it sure looks like the inner panel WAS removed. Leaving a 1/2" band around the perimeter satisfies the "modified but not removed requirement, IMO. Anything more is uneeded.

Again, this is just my opinion, but this is a "trade" intended to encourage the use of doorbars that extend into the doors, as the PTB feel they are safer, and they are willing to "buy" your favor by "paying" you the best way they know how to: with an easy weight reduction.

Some cage builders feel the best solution is to extend the left side bars out most, or all the way to the outer door beam or panel on the left, but only just into the space on the right, so as to allow the structure to crush more gently on a right hand side T bone hit. There is no need to have the bars out at the edge of the right door, so why not use that space effectively?

[Speed Raycer]

I disagree...where does it tell you that?

Why do you have to modify the interior door skin? To provide clearance for the door to close. How much clearance do you need for the door to close? 1"? 2"? Surely we can all agree that anything over 3-4" is a little excessive UNLESS it's a safety hazard (jagged corners from factory holes etc).

No, the rule doesn't limit the modification so sure, you can cut everything out till theres only a hairline left of the original panel.. but is that the intent of the rule? If so, I have a SM in the shop that's losing the majority of its seat belt towers! Woohoo.. that just saved me about 3 hours of rebuilding them today (darn 6'4", 250lb drivers).

[lateapex911]

Well, I agree that I'm guilty of discussing "intent", but that opinion that I offered is based on conversations I've had with those who wrote the rule in the first place.

That said, I think it can be dangerous to assume intent. The only rule I found that "suggests' minimal modification is the dash board rule regarding allowed mods for the purpose of roll cage install.

This rule uses the words, "may modify...", and "... but not remove".

So, the limit is removal.

You are free to leave as much as you wish, but not required to leave any specific amount....you may not remove it. If they wanted you to leave a portion, they would have needed to add some phrasing to achieve that, such as: "the inner door panel may be modified to the extent necessary to allow the intrusion of the door bars" or some such.

But they don't.

As a famous IT.com philosopher once said, "if it says you can, you bloody well can".