What does ITA/ITS look like in 3-5yrs?

[tnord]

Curious about what people think ITA & ITS will look like over the next 3-5 years. What cars will be competitive that aren't currently being run right now? What cars might fade out? Will IT go national? What happens with car counts if it stays regional/goes nat'l?

Feel free to throw in a broader response of what SCCA as a whole looks like over the same time period.

[Knestis]

I still wouldn't count out the idea of IT ending up a National category. It's just too good for that program to ignore, even if some current Regional IT drivers - and a BUNCH of current National drivers in other categories - think it's a bad idea for them. I have my own hyptheses about how that will shake out but they've been discussed in depth here before...

We'll have to address the ABS/stability control/etc. question more seriously than we have to date. There will come a time sooner or later when those technologies WILL end up on the track in IT cars.

As performance envelopes of new cars inch up, expect to see brands appear in ITA that are generally considered "lower market" (e.g., the Koreans) than what we're used to.

K

[tnord]

i think i know what the utopian answer to this question is....but how will including TC & ABS vehicles into IT affect the competitiveness of non-equipped cars.

<----also anticipates IT going national within this timeframe, but still fears a similar life cycle to SM.

[Doc Bro]

I think the landscape of ITA will certainly continue to evolve into a predominantly Miata class. Our NE regional weekend ITA entries approach the 50% count, Miatas to all other ITA entries (this weekend 8 out of 20). The car is popular enough for the "blueprint" to be known or close to known, thus eliminating countless hours and dollars of independant development to the ITA newcomer. This makes the car very atttractive. I also think ITS will see a growth of Miatas as folks become more aware of the potential of the car in IT trim. It wins, its easy to drive, parts are readily available, its nicely classed:cool:, the mysteries have been discovered, and its economical....the perfect racecar, and a great place for the IT newbie to start.

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

[lateapex911]

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

I dunno about that. Leadership has shown the ability to cave to the memberships pressures and complaining time and time again. And I would bet that any "vote" on IT going national would be negative. Most National class drivers would rightly see it as a threat to their turf (be it a top 10 class run group at the Runoffs, or more classes that hasten their class's demise) and would vote against it instantly.

Of the IT guys, many will apply thought processes that will paint the sky falling, and vote against it...

Net/net, lots of negative votes will make it difficult for the BoD to go along with it. They just don't want to piss off their friends, even if they think it's for the greater good.

[JeffYoung]

I agree with a fair amount of that, but wil point out that the "fast" Miatas are coming out of top prep shops with top level drivers (Flatout/ISC, etc.).

I'll also note that an RX7 beat MVS by a nose at Daytona on Sunday, and a E46 handed it to the rest of the field that day. On a "handling" track, at Barber, MVS and an E30 had a great race running top shelf times, and the E30 (an E30!) won.

Jake, we've known each other for a while and you know I respect your opinions. I think some of the anti-national IT sentiment is sky is falling stuff, but I think some of it -- I hope my thought -- is legitimate. I'm afraid of diluted fields if we don't end the regional/national discussion all together, and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.


I think the landscape of ITA will certainly continue to evolve into a predominantly Miata class. Our NE regional weekend ITA entries approach the 50% count, Miatas to all other ITA entries (this weekend 8 out of 20). The car is popular enough for the "blueprint" to be known or close to known, thus eliminating countless hours and dollars of independant development to the ITA newcomer. This makes the car very atttractive. I also think ITS will see a growth of Miatas as folks become more aware of the potential of the car in IT trim. It wins, its easy to drive, parts are readily available, its nicely classed:cool:, the mysteries have been discovered, and its economical....the perfect racecar, and a great place for the IT newbie to start.

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

[Doc Bro]

and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.


Amen.


R

[lateapex911]

Jake, we've known each other for a while and you know I respect your opinions. I think some of the anti-national IT sentiment is sky is falling stuff, but I think some of it -- I hope my thought -- is legitimate. I'm afraid of diluted fields if we don't end the regional/national discussion all together, and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.

I hear ya man!

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

[tnord]

so....back on track and away from yet another national discussion....

will ITA/S/R strengthen over the next few years, remain the same, or weaken? and why?

[Ron Earp]

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

I agree with you that a simple poll will produce a lot of negative responses. It is simply human nature to resist changing a stable enviroment.

In defense of some of the knee jerk comments produced the last time this topic was brought up, the reason to go national was never fully explained. I think if the group asking about "National IT" will carefully back the concept with tangible benefits the outcome might be a bit different. You definitely see less irrational thought and more constructive criticism.

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITA as a Miata class depends on your definition of 'predominantly'. Of those 8 Rob speeks of (of 20) 6 are pure SM's double dipping. So in reality, only 2 are real ITA cars. Interestingly, there are just as many Escort GT's (2) and Z3's (2) as 'real' ITA Miata's in that race.

ITA and ITS look great for the future IMHO. ITA will always have a metric shit-ton of Honda choices with tons of knowledge base, the 1.6 and 1.8 Miata getting built, SM crossovers and some other intersting choices like the various Nissans. Full fields for years I would think.

ITS should stay strong as well. RX-7's are all over (parts are becoming very scarce), the 323's are fast, the 944S has shown it can win, the M2 Miata is another good choice (so few around). I think it depends on your track as to what you may build.

[JeffYoung]

Then we agree 100%


I hear ya man!

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

[JeffYoung]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

Right now, in my 4 years of racing, ITS and A are the strongest they have ever been in the SEDiv. S has several chassis that can win -- 944S, Miata, 240/260/280z, BMW E46, E30, RX7, TR8 is close! lol...Jensen Healey...not so much. Car counts are up and frankly, some of that is because the big speed shops (BWorld and SSource) no longer have cars and teams in the game.

R will eventually cut into S, I agree. Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up. R is building, but at a slower rate than I expected/hoped. Maybe in 5 years it will have fields equal to S.

But just as A has flourished "under" S with cool car choices, I think S will continue to be ok with its wide range of cars that are cool and can win. S does admittedly appeal to a different sort -- note that lack of S guys on roadrace-autox.com which is primarily a frontdriver Honda/Acura board -- than A, but I think the desire for folks to race 944s and RX7s and 240s will be enough to keep the class healthy for another 10 years.

A I know less about. In the SEDiv, while it looks healthy, it's nothing compared to what you see up North.


so....back on track and away from yet another national discussion....

will ITA/S/R strengthen over the next few years, remain the same, or weaken? and why?

[ulfelder]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

... Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up. R is building, but at a slower rate than I expected/hoped. Maybe in 5 years it will have fields equal to S.



This sounds about right. I think the main thing slowing the transition is that everything about an R car is relatively expensive, starting with the donor.

This season, I'm wrapping up my seventh and last year in an ITS RX-7. Next year it's an ITS Miata. 4 years down the road or so, I expect it'll be an ITR RX-8. :happy204:

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

[seckerich]

I am in about the same situation. I love IT and the fact you can race a car for years and it still has value when you sell it. Stable rules and large fields are what make that possible. I sold the ITS RX7 to go ITR RX8 but dumped it when the listing came out. The lure was too great so I have another ITS RX now. I will go ITR later if it gets straightened out. It will grow slowly with the cost of the cars. Too much money to build cars on chance.

[pballance]

...Stable rules and large fields are what make that possible. ....

As I relative newcomer this is what attracted me. Not only that, lower $$ than other areas for noob's. I do not want to enter into the " $$$ value" of spec classes, that is for another thread.

I am looking for another S or R car now. Parts for the <insert 25+ year old but still competitive car> are getting slimmer and slimmer and I anticipate needing to move to a newer car in the next couple of years.

As R develops and cars like the RX8 and others start to enter the equation I think you will see another jump in IT participation. It is the one thing, IMHO, that is needed to appeal to the younger entry level drivers. Our old 25+ year old cars may appeal to us but to keep the participation levels up we need an influx of newer, competitive cars that have an appeal to the younger drivers.

Just my $.02 worth........

[JeffYoung]

Paul, you are spot on, and that's why guys like Ron (did the first ITR spreadsheet), Andy, Bill M., Scott, Dick, Jake, etc. worked hard to get ITR into the real world. We all knew IT needed new "car blood" to survive, and that's the primary reason there is an ITR.

[DavidM]

I think a lot of it depends on how the economy goes in the next few years. If it gets better then fields will grow, if it stays the same or gets worse then fields are going to shrink.

It will be interesting to see how some of the recent rule changes play out in a couple years. The overall net should be faster cars, but I think the delta between the front guys and the mid-field guys will increase as a result.

I think you'll likely see the same cars running in three years that you see today. From what I've observed, it's usually guys that have been racing a while that build new cars. It's not newbies in their first season. With the glut of built cars currently for sale, somebody is going to really have to want to build a new car for a new car to show up racing. I just don't see that happening. The current list of cars will continue to be developed and get faster. I think you're looking at a longer timeframe before you start to see a significant number of new cars.

David

[Ron Earp]

It is the one thing, IMHO, that is needed to appeal to the younger entry level drivers. Our old 25+ year old cars may appeal to us but to keep the participation levels up we need an influx of newer, competitive cars that have an appeal to the younger drivers.

Right on, exactly why there is ITR as others have written. It is a good step in the right direction and I think the class will grow in the coming years.

The SCCA has a ways to go still. Forced induction and AWD cars are here to stay but have no competitive and well attended class in IT to play (yes they can run in ITE, but you know as well as I do that is because we don't know how to deal with them).

I think forced induction and AWD will have to be dealt with in the coming years. As Kirk mentions, probably about the same time ABS, traction control, and other electronic nannies will need to be considered while classing.

[tnord]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

Car counts are up and frankly, some of that is because the big speed shops (BWorld and SSource) no longer have cars and teams in the game.

who will almost certainly come back if IT goes national. but back on topic. :)



R will eventually cut into S, I agree. Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up.

i'm curious as to why this is? are there a group of people who just HAVE to be in the fastest IT class that exists?



But just as A has flourished "under" S with cool car choices, I think S will continue to be ok with its wide range of cars that are cool and can win. S does admittedly appeal to a different sort -- note that lack of S guys on roadrace-autox.com which is primarily a frontdriver Honda/Acura board -- than A, but I think the desire for folks to race 944s and RX7s and 240s will be enough to keep the class healthy for another 10 years.


what is different about the demographic in A compared to S? what do you think causes this difference? are there any cars in the works waiting to be classed that could replenish the older 240s?

[Ron Earp]

i'm curious as to why this is? are there a group of people who just HAVE to be in the fastest IT class that exists?

Yes there is. I have to say that is how I picked ITS three years ago. Not because I thought I was fast, good, or anything else. But I figured if I was going to do something then I was going "all in". I now realize that this thinking was quite, how shall I say it, stupid, but I was naive about the entire scene. And I'm not afraid to admit it. Lots of things I'd do different now but that would be quite an essay.




what is different about the demographic in A compared to S? what do you think causes this difference? are there any cars in the works waiting to be classed that could replenish the older 240s?

It appears that the ITA group is mainly the FWD cars - hot hatches, Hondas, and so on. ITA seems to be populated with folks that enjoy these cars or maybe grew up driving them. I never owned a front wheel drive car until about four years ago so I was more interested in the "old school" S cars.

My guess is ITA could be highly appealing to new young racers who are used to the FWD cars and like hotting them up, except that the average modern FWD car has more stock horsepower than can be comfortably classed in ITA.

[MMiskoe]

My two cents:

The ABS/Stability control issue is huge. So few cars now (or 5 years ago) were without it and it is becoming more intrenched in the ECU programming and brake biasing. Allowing newer cars to utilize it will make for another round of arguing about how it alters the relative merits of those with vrs without.

ITA will become even more FWD as there are only a few RWD cars eligible and the RX7's and 318 BWM's will age out.

ITS will see the same change, more FWD as there are more FWD cars w/ ITS potential than there were 10 years ago. (simple fact is that today, there are Miatas, BMWS and Mercedes as lower powered RWD cars, everything else is bigger HP).

Eventually the RX7's will go the way of the 240Z's, too old, too few parts. This will affect the north east sooner than anywhere else as we have the rust to contend with that you Confederates get to avoid.

Donor BMW E46's will get cheaper as they get older so you will see more of them, replacing the RX7s. ITR cars will get cheaper & more prevalent, stealing car counts away from ITS and ITA.

This is considering that the rule package stays pretty much as is.

Matt

[esuvee]

ITSolstice sure sounds better than ITRolstice. I am eagerly awaiting the classification of this car when it's time comes. If I were a better gambler I would build one now for SSB and be one of those IT(S?) guys with 10yrs of experience on a chassis.

The gamble is that I think it's lap times could be in the R range but from every measure of factory horsepower, weight, and tech adders it seems to me it should be an S car like the miata. I would hate for it to be a slow R car but I think it could inject new life into S as long as it carries enough weight to stay in reach of the RX7s.

The thing that SSB has proven is that the car carries weight well so a heavy weight in S might be more appropriate than a featherweight R. If someone could guarantee right now where this car will end up I would be on ebay tomorrow.

Alex

[tnord]

speaking of SSB cars....where did all the miata's go? buyers are having a hard time finding them, maybe they really aren't out there?

i'm trying to figure out timeline for a standard distribution life cycle for IT classes. if you could say that ITC is on it's last legs, how long ago did it show up? if ITA is at it's peak, how long ago was it created? are the best years for ITS yet to come? are these even really relevant questions with the great realignment not far behind us?

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITSolstice sure sounds better than ITRolstice. I am eagerly awaiting the classification of this car when it's time comes. If I were a better gambler I would build one now for SSB and be one of those IT(S?) guys with 10yrs of experience on a chassis.

The gamble is that I think it's lap times could be in the R range but from every measure of factory horsepower, weight, and tech adders it seems to me it should be an S car like the miata. I would hate for it to be a slow R car but I think it could inject new life into S as long as it carries enough weight to stay in reach of the RX7s.

The thing that SSB has proven is that the car carries weight well so a heavy weight in S might be more appropriate than a featherweight R. If someone could guarantee right now where this car will end up I would be on ebay tomorrow.

Alex

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

[tnord]

2740 seems like a good ITS weight for that car. sure look like they'd be fun to draft off of in a miata. :)

[Doc Bro]

ITA as a Miata class depends on your definition of 'predominantly'. Of those 8 Rob speeks of (of 20) 6 are pure SM's double dipping. So in reality, only 2 are real ITA cars. Interestingly, there are just as many Escort GT's (2) and Z3's (2) as 'real' ITA Miata's in that race.




Doesn't matter if they are "real" ITA cars. If they are in the class in the race then they are ITA, and they add to the car counts (thankfully). The question was what does the landscape of IT look like in the future? The car counts prove this to be true, and the car counts don't take into account real or "fake". It IS the most popular ITA car and will continue to be. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is. Saying the "real" ITA Miata's are as popular as the Escort GT or Z3 is a bit of a stretch. Is Cefalo's ITA Miata(the one that destroyed the competition at the Glen) a "real ITA" Miata?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Doesn't matter if they are "real" ITA cars. If they are in the class in the race then they are ITA, and they add to the car counts (thankfully). The question was what does the landscape of IT look like in the future? The car counts prove this to be true, and the car counts don't take into account real or "fake". It IS the most popular ITA car and will continue to be. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is. Saying the "real" ITA Miata's are as popular as the Escort GT or Z3 is a bit of a stretch. Is Cefalo's ITA Miata(the one that destroyed the competition at the Glen) a "real ITA" Miata?

R

If you mean the 'SM' with Goodyears that won at the Glen, then no it's not a 'real' ITA Miata. You will notice he was 'only' 2 seconds off the ITA track record. (Edit: Branscome had fast lap Sunday)

My point was that the double-dipping SM's shouldn't be counted in 'what is popular in ITA' because it's only an opportunistic count. In some regions, SM and ITA run together eliminating those cars from the entry list altogether. Miatas built specifically for ITA are relitively rare compared to HondAcuras.

[Doc Bro]

If you mean the 'SM' with Goodyears that won at the Glen, then no it's not a 'real' ITA Miata. You will notice he was 'only' 2 seconds off the ITA track record. (Edit: Branscome had fast lap Sunday)

My point was that the double-dipping SM's shouldn't be counted in 'what is popular in ITA' because it's only an opportunistic count. In some regions, SM and ITA run together eliminating those cars from the entry list altogether. Miatas built specifically for ITA are relitively rare compared to HondAcuras.


So if I get beat by say, Gorrorrian in his "double-dipping" "not real" ITA Miata do I get to not count that? Do I get his trophy or points? Does Cefalo's win over Joe and Jeff not count then? Pete and Darrell run VERY competetive ITA times in their (S)SM's.

If they are in the class in that race then they ARE ITA. The prep level is not the question. It adds to the car counts and it adds to the Miata count. The question was; What will ITA/S look like in the future? My answer was predominantly Miata....it already is. Undebatable.

I'm not trying to by argumentative or anti-Miata. I just don't see how you can argue this fact.

To a spectator on the hill ITA will look like mostly a Miata class in the fuutre. Is that better?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Whatever Rob. The question is 'what will the landscape of ITA look like in a few years?' from a broad stroke. Double dipping Miata from SM work someplaces, and don't work others. Assuming Trav is talking about potential pointy-enders, SM's don't weigh in on what to look for or how the 'competitive' lanscape with shape up. Heck, SM might have a rule change that puts them outside the ITA box in terms of what is acceptable for resonable corssover and be gone completely. To 'bank' on something like that isn't a good idea. Trav is trying to make sure the class he builds a car for is stable, strong and viable for the future - hense my assertion it isn't a 'Miata class'. It's actually a 'Honda class' IMO. We are just looking at it from different angles. Trav can pick through our babble and decide how it pertains to his patch.

If you are getting beat in ITA by SM's, well, that is a whole 'nother thread.

[tnord]

Whatever Rob. The question is 'what will the landscape of ITA look like in a few years?' from a broad stroke. Double dipping Miata from SM work someplaces, and don't work others. Assuming Trav is talking about potential pointy-enders, SM's don't weigh in on what to look for or how the 'competitive' lanscape with shape up. Heck, SM might have a rule change that puts them outside the ITA box in terms of what is acceptable for resonable corssover and be gone completely. To 'bank' on something like that isn't a good idea. Trav is trying to make sure the class he builds a car for is stable, strong and viable for the future - hense my assertion it isn't a 'Miata class'. It's actually a 'Honda class' IMO. We are just looking at it from different angles. Trav can pick through our babble and decide how it pertains to his patch.

If you are getting beat in ITA by SM's, well, that is a whole 'nother thread.

winner! :smilie_pokal:

of course, andy does have a little inside information as to what's going on here, so it wasn't quite a fair fight. :)

it took only three years for SM to run it's course once it went National, and if the tire rule stays the way it is, i have very little interest in it anymore. yes, predicting the future is VERY difficult, but it's what i'm trying to do. my bet? IT goes National in three years, and the game changes just as it did in SM. when that happens....i want to know what the class looks like.

are we now going to be allowing TC/ABS? what cars are on the horizon that might be coming in with a lot of support and strong following? has IT become more popular and MORE competitive? or with national will it become less popular and more competitive (the worst case scenario)?

well, if SCCA finally gets the balls to eliminate the dead classes or consolidate a bunch as they had proposed a few months ago, i think IT gets both more competitive and popular. bigger fields and better cars at the front is great for both those on the outside watching, and those on the inside playing. taking a look at what our rule structure will look like gives a little window of insight into the costs to be relatively competitive.

i think allowing TC/ABS raises that, because combined with the open ECU rule it's going to take a whole lot of tuning that i'm not sure how you develop (dyno doesn't work) to get an advantage from those systems. now, the faster the class you choose the bigger benefit there will be as a 250whp ITR 300ZX can use a good TC program a lot more than a 125whp ITA CRX. so i think the "slope" on the competitiveness/cost graph increases the farther up you move in the IT speed ranks, making ITA the better choice, but.....

as was mentioned earlier, how long of a shelf life does ITA have? has it reached it's peak of popularity and will slowly wane as those cars age, tubs rust, and parts become more scarce? ITS looks good on the level that i think it's still growing in popularity, which bodes well for resale in the 3-5yr timeframe.

[esuvee]

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

I think a 27XXlb solstice would be a quick car. It runs a 1:51.X at HPT in SSB trim (3050lbs) and I think a mid 1:50 is a good ITS time (a little hard to find times for some reason). Plus, there should be plenty of old SSB cars around when the time comes.

Alex

[tnord]

I think a 27XXlb solstice would be a quick car. It runs a 1:51.X at HPT in SSB trim (3050lbs) and I think a mid 1:50 is a good ITS time (a little hard to find times for some reason). Plus, there should be plenty of old SSB cars around when the time comes.

Alex

low 50's is a good SM time (iirc pole last year was around a 51.9, and they were doing 53/54's last weekend. a good ITA time would be in the 50's or lower, i would think putting ITS times around 45-47.

[robits325is]

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

I wish my 170hp RWD car was 2740....

Where can I find this list of adders?

[esuvee]

low 50's is a good SM time (iirc pole last year was around a 51.9, and they were doing 53/54's last weekend.

I was refering to 'mid 1:50's' as 1:50.5 rather than 1:55's but it still sounds like that's a couple seconds slower than ITS may actually run. Either way, I imagine there's a few seconds between a 3050lb SSB car and a 27XXlb IT prepped car. Maybe I should look at how other SSB cars transitioned to IT.

Thanks,
Alex

[JeffYoung]

You probably get a 35% power increase percentage v. 25% for the Solistice, plus 100 lbs for torque and maybe 100 more for suspension (aren't E-46s A-arm all around?)

Based on what Irish Mike does with his at Daytona, Sebring and Roebling, I'd say the ITAC got the weight on the 323 correct.

I wish my 170hp RWD car was 2740....

Where can I find this list of adders?

[lateapex911]

You probably get a 35% power increase percentage v. 25% for the Solistice, plus 100 lbs for torque and maybe 100 more for suspension (aren't E-46s A-arm all around?)

Based on what Irish Mike does with his at Daytona, Sebring and Roebling, I'd say the ITAC got the weight on the 323 correct.

Yea, that car (the model, not only Mike's) is a great car. It's on my "medium list" for cars to run post RX-7. Watching it sort out now.

[lateapex911]

Travis has an interesting angle on this, and is looking at history to guide him, among other things. One thing I'd toss in there is that we've thought of ITC as "dead" for awhile now, but the numbers are steady. low, but pretty steady, I think.

But ITB seems to be experiencing a resurgence.

I'd like opinions as to why on that one....

[tnord]

I'm sure you know what a standard bell curve looks like, which would indicate there will be a fairly steady # of ITC cars over a long period of time....but still slowly declining. I think ITA is probably just on either side of the peak, ITS climbing, and ITR still in the "2 std dev from the mean" category. ITR will have the longest useful life given it's stage of the cycle, but is still big $ to enter.

i think the ITB resurgance can be directly related to the realignment....and at risk of being insulting.....because SOME people thought ITB was ripe for the picking, though the overwhelming driver behind the resurgance was the realignment.

the resurgance of IT as a whole is primarily driven by the realignment, and i don't think ITB is any different.

[JeffYoung]

I agree. ITB is thriving because there are a number of chassis that can compete in it, after realignment.

I didn't expect it either, but good to see.

[Xian]

Seems to me that ITA will still have plenty of "good years" ahead of it. Over time, the existing cars classed will rust away and parts will get more difficult to find. At the same time we have fewer and fewer new cars with power levels that make them ITA material... it seems that most of the new cars will go directly to S or R. I would imagine over time, these will be the classes to be in. If I stick with racing over the long term, I can see my next move being to ITR in maybe 5-7 years. This should allow me to get into the class once it's gained some popularity and car counts while still has a good "life" ahead of it.

All of the above assumes that if IT does become "national" it doesn't get all goobered up in the process.

Christian

[seckerich]

One often overlooked reason for the popularity of IT is the ability to share a car. Enduros offer 2 drivers the chance to get plenty of track time and cut expenses in half. Very few other cars where that works. IT will become more attractive to more drivers as the economy gets tighter.

[JeffYoung]

One rule change we do need to definitely consider is to ban all guys named Eckerich from Improved Touring racing due to too much power and driver potential, not to mention too clean of a car.

[seckerich]

One rule change we do need to definitely consider is to ban all guys named Eckerich from Improved Touring racing due to too much power and driver potential, not to mention too clean of a car.

Now thats just wrong.:eek: I will have a car at VIR for Goblins Go so your year off is over!! I appreciate the compliment but the cars just make me look good.

[Ron Earp]

Now thats just wrong.:eek: I will have a car at VIR for Goblins Go so your year off is over!! I appreciate the compliment but the cars just make me look good.

You might have to step it up a bit. The TR8 just got a brand new shiny paint job! So did the Z, although it wasn't of the same quality and thus didn't help as much. Still, I'd like to think we improved (slightly) the look of ITS in the SE, at least from 50 feet that is....

[jimmyc]

there are still a few cars that should/could be in ITA or ITB.

The 02-04/5 Honda civic SI (EP3)2.0l with 150hp and 140ft/tq (with craptastic strurt suspension

the 01-07 Acura RSX (base model) 2.0l 150hp and 140ft/tq (with the same craptastic strut suspension and same motor)

07-08 Honda Fit (1.5l 109hp and 105ft/tq strut front suspension and solid beam rear)

2008 Toyota yaris (106hp and 106ft/tq no idea on the suspension)

06-07 Honda Civic EX/LX/DX (1.8l 140hp 128ft/tq craptastic strut suspension *note we built one of these and with the head design (single exhaust port coming out of the head) and this with a .20 over build only made 127hp and something like 115ft/tq this was with a custom header stock header made 119hp)

I think the cars for ITA/B are still out there and still being produced.

The Fit, Civic Si, RSX, Civic EX/LX/DX all have a pretty decent aftermarket too.

[IPRESS]

I'm sure you know what a standard bell curve looks like, which would indicate there will be a fairly steady # of ITC cars over a long period of time....but still slowly declining. I think ITA is probably just on either side of the peak, ITS climbing, and ITR still in the "2 std dev from the mean" category. ITR will have the longest useful life given it's stage of the cycle, but is still big $ to enter.

i think the ITB resurgance can be directly related to the realignment....and at risk of being insulting.....because SOME people thought ITB was ripe for the picking, though the overwhelming driver behind the resurgance was the realignment.

the resurgance of IT as a whole is primarily driven by the realignment, and i don't think ITB is any different.

Stop it with ITB, you couldn't beat Albin in a SWC car!:D
You are a budget racer at heart. You have experience with the miata. Mazda has the best support that I know of for the budget racer. Find you a cheap 1.8 and build you up a real "A" car. You will out drive me and be in good sahape to beat those crossover guys. The "S" car sounds like a neat thing to try, but in the long run I think the "S" miata would be at a bigger disadvantage in MW then maybe some other places. Might be good at Hallett, but not sure at the other spots. Besides the "S" fields are up and down at the different venues. "A" is pretty stable and probably going to grow as SM becomes more and more "cut throat National". (We are talking MIDDIV, I can't say for other areas.) Another thing to consider when talking "A" versus "S" miata is cost to build. Maybe they are close, but I would think NB in "A" would be cheaper to get to the top with over the NA in "S".
It is all about the racing, and busting chops of the MidDiv Mafia buddies you have is probably your highest goal!:happy204:

[tnord]

yeah, i am a budget racer....but for what i had in my SM i could've built an ITA car that would've finished at least top 10 at the ARRC. IT is a budget class for now, until it goes national, at which point i want to make sure i still have a car capable of being competitive.

i really think the ITS can be competitive, but if someone really wanted to build an all-out BMW, it would have an advantage at either RA. it's the same with ITA though, right now the car can do well at the ARRC, but it doesn't have the motor to keep up with the Honda down the straight.

Mazda does have the best support out there, which is why an ITS or ITA miata are still my top options. i think that's a good point about "A" continuing to grow because of the miata converts, but that's not something I can root for as if it happens, that means SM is dying.

bottom line, i agree, it is all about the racing. and right now, i can be competitive with a miata in either class...it's the future i worry about.

[JoshS]

You probably get a 35% power increase percentage v. 25% for the Solistice, plus 100 lbs for torque and maybe 100 more for suspension (aren't E-46s A-arm all around?)

Hardly. Basically the same as an E36, just slightly improved geometry.

[Weaver7]

This sounds about right. I think the main thing slowing the transition is that everything about an R car is relatively expensive, starting with the donor.

This season, I'm wrapping up my seventh and last year in an ITS RX-7. Next year it's an ITS Miata. 4 years down the road or so, I expect it'll be an ITR RX-8. :happy204:

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS


Steve just curious but why are you getting out of the RX-7??

Bill Weaver #63
ITS RX-7

[seckerich]

The Miata has a slightly better power to weight ration than the RX7. Lighter weight, low roll center, and big tires. It is one of the overlooked cars in the class.

[DavidM]

The Miata has a slightly better power to weight ration than the RX7. Lighter weight, low roll center, and big tires. It is one of the overlooked cars in the class.
Don't know about overlooked. MVS peddles his pretty damn well. I was kinda surprised that Reppert was able to beat him at Barber.

David

[ulfelder]

Steve just curious but why are you getting out of the RX-7??

Bill Weaver #63
ITS RX-7

Bill, a few reasons:



When we launched Flatout we were rotary specialists. We still work on a bunch of RX-7s, but the joint is crawling with Miatas. When in Rome ...
On a similar note, it makes sense for us owners to anticipate Mazda trends, then develop cars to show customers and prospects what can be done. The obvious example is Bettencourt's ITA Miata. I'm following in his footsteps.
My shell is 22 years old, and the newest second-gen RX-7s are 17 years old. A lot of progress has been made since then on FI, chassis stiffness, engine computers, etc. etc. And as you know, the sheer age makes parts harder to find and causes hard-to-diagnose electrical gremlins.

Having said all this, the old RX may get another season (if I don't ball it up at the NARRCoffs). Recent events on Wall Street make the prospect of building a car from the ground up somewhat unappealing! :o

Steve Ulfelder
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[VinnyV81]

Well I am new to things, but I hope that the IT class will remain around for a while. I do have a question though to ask.

Why is it that second gen RX-7's can only run in ITS? I mean looking around at the competition for when I got to start club racing, it's gonna be hard to compete with alot of guys in ITS. It would be nice if I could start off in something like ITA which is A. less costly and B. better for someone with little experience(like myself).

Just some thoughts for everyone...

-Vincent.