Sep Fastrack is a dud... again

[Fastfred92]

I have not been told NO in a while now......

[Andy Bettencourt]

Oct will be chock full of info.

[dickita15]

The CRB is recommending new driving suit standards, I just do not understand the need

1. Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended. All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation. Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standard 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch.

[Dave Gomberg]

The CRB is recommending new driving suit standards, I just do not understand the need.

1. Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended. All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation. Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standard 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch. We're not recommending new standards. This is part of a reorganization of the GCR sections for annual and event inspection of cars and driver safety equipment. However, there is a problem that has crept into the section you have cited: we have a separate recommendation to reinstate the FIA 8856-1986 standard. That is not reflected here. If this set of changes is approved, it will reflect the 1986 standard when it goes into the GCR for 2009.

Dave

[CRallo]

The CRB is recommending new driving suit standards, I just do not understand the need

1. Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended. All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation. Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standard 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch.


hey Dick,

didn't they already rewrite that part this year? and what you qouted was the old text? mm... i gotta go read this

[dickita15]

The CRB recommended it last year and the BOD voted it down. While the using the FIA 2000 standard would be a disaster as it would outlaw suits that are only a few years old, I believe even adopting the 1986 FIA is a unnecessary change that will alienate many drivers.

[Ron Earp]

Whatever happened to the old Pony Car proposal for ITR? I think we submitted that back in Jan 2008. Is it dead yet?

[Knestis]

Not dead. It's just resting hard.

In a way, not having heard "no thanks" should be taken as a good sign.

K

[planet6racing]

OK, I'm a patient person, but it has been (3) FasTracks now and there is still no acknowledgement of my letter.

What can be done to speed up this process? I can see why so many members get frustrated with the "system."

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, I'm a patient person, but it has been (3) FasTracks now and there is still no acknowledgement of my letter.

What can be done to speed up this process? I can see why so many members get frustrated with the "system."

Bill,

Did you get the e-mail response that it was received? What is the topic? I have the last call notes right in front of me.

[Greg Amy]

We're not recommending new standards.
Dave, you *are* recommending new standards: driver's suits of SFI of FIA approval are not required now. By requiring SFI or FIA certification you are implementing new standards. - GA

[jjjanos]

What's the status of the VIN rule? Did the BoD every make a decision on this?

[planet6racing]

Bill,

Did you get the e-mail response that it was received? What is the topic? I have the last call notes right in front of me.

Andy:

I did get a message from them that it was received. I even know that it was supposed to be discussed at the August 5th meeting (because I've been asking). It went to the Prod AC and apparently fell into a blackhole or something.

I don't know how to make things better (because I don't know what all goes on behind the scenes). But, I do understand why many people feel the SCCA is a slow moving ship. If I were to have even received a quick e-mail stating that my letter was set to be discuss on XXX date and you will be updated on the status by YYY, I'd feel like there was progress.

Then again, maybe it is just because I have to write all these damn action plans for the work I do... :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy:

I did get a message from them that it was received. I even know that it was supposed to be discussed at the August 5th meeting (because I've been asking). It went to the Prod AC and apparently fell into a blackhole or something.

I don't know how to make things better (because I don't know what all goes on behind the scenes). But, I do understand why many people feel the SCCA is a slow moving ship. If I were to have even received a quick e-mail stating that my letter was set to be discuss on XXX date and you will be updated on the status by YYY, I'd feel like there was progress.

Then again, maybe it is just because I have to write all these damn action plans for the work I do... :D

Is this a Prod or IT question? What is it?

[Dave Gomberg]

Dave, you *are* recommending new standards: driver's suits of SFI of FIA approval are not required now. By requiring SFI or FIA certification you are implementing new standards. - GA
Please see 9.3.19.A of the current GCR. The requirement for SFI or FIA certification was to have been in place this year. It was delayed until 2009. We have asked the BoD to approve the reinstatement of the 1986 standard along side the 2000 standard.

Dave

[Greg Amy]

Please see 9.3.19.A of the current GCR.
Dave, GCR 9.3.19.A states the following:


Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended. All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation. Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standard 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch.
There's no SFI or FIA certification requirement in there.

As I recall, wasn't this proposed to the BoD last Fall and rejected? If it was approved, in what Fastrack did that happen (it would need to be on a Fastrack approval, since it's a change from the '08 GCR)?

[Greg Amy]

Update:

I pulled out all my old Fastracks. In the August 2007 Fastrack, requiring SFI and FIA (2000) suits - effective 11/1/07 - was proposed by the CRB in their July 2007 meeting. This was forwarded to the BoD for approval.

As per December 2007 Fastrack, this was passed - unanimously - during the BoD's November 5, 2007 meeting, still effective 11/1/2007.

However, in the January 2008 Fastrack, during the minutes for the November 30th, 2007 meeting, there is yet another motion, under "New Business", this one to leave the rules as-is but make SFI and FIA (2000) a requirement effective 1/1/09. This time it passed but it was NOT unanimous, with Holtz and Introne voting "NO". Yet, I can find nowhere where this was proposed by the CRB (as the minutes say), nor can I find anywhere where the prior requirement was rescinded (I suppose it was superseded by the 'change' to go 'back' to the original rule effective 1/1/08.)

I also see where numerous letters were received in opposition to the GCR change (10 letters in opposition in Feb Fastrack, 3 in March noted as "input", none expressly listed in support.)

In the June '08 Fastrack, the CRB made (in their April meeting) the recommendation to add the 1986 FIA standard. In the August Fastrack, there are several letters in support of this change (e.g., Zaslow, Ebersole, Rhea, Blethan), though some may be inferred to be in support of suit certification requirement.

And, of course, the September Fastrack has the revised rule as is being presented to the BoD, requiring SFI and/or FIA certification effective 1/1/09.

So, Dave's right: it looks like SFI or FIA certification of some level is required. What that basically means is that unless you've purchased a suit within the last 10 years or so, your suit will be illegal for use effective 1/1/09.

No more hand-me-down suits, folks, time to pony up to the SFI tax collector. This is not a good rule, and I bet that once people go through their first annual inspection a lot more people will recognize this. We're going to be turning away a lot of people at our first event next year, the annual start-of-the-year driver's school... - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thanks for the research Greg, this one is/was confusing.

[Xian]

No more hand-me-down suits, folks, time to pony up to the SFI tax collector. This is not a good rule, and I bet that once people go through their first annual inspection a lot more people will recognize this. We're going to be turning away a lot of people at our first event next year, the annual start-of-the-year driver's school... - GA

So what you're saying is that I need to make plans to show up at the Feb RRR Super School with a bunch of severely over-priced crappy (but compliant) SFI race suits for sale? :bash_1_:

Christian

[Andy Bettencourt]

G-Force 505 1-piece is $239 SFI-5 rated.

http://www.saferacer.com/g-force-gf505-one-piece-racing-suit.html?productid=916

[erlrich]

Dave, GCR 9.3.19.A states the following:

Driving suits that effectively cover the body from the neck to the ankles and wrists. One piece suits are highly recommended. All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation. Underwear of fire resistant material shall be used except with suits carrying FIA standard 8856-2000 or SFI 3-2A/5 or higher (e.g., /10, /15, /20) Certification Patch.
There's no SFI or FIA certification requirement in there.

Ok, I'm a little dense so please bear with me; doesn't "All suits shall bear an SFI 3.2A/1 or higher certification label or FIA 8856-2000 homologation." constitute a requirement for SFI or FIA certification? Help edjumicate me please.

[Knestis]

VIN rule is supposed to be voted on early this fall by the Board, Jeff.

K

[Greg Amy]

Ok, I'm a little dense so please bear with me...
Yes, you're right: I mis-quoted what I intended to. The current "updated" GCR with Fastrack updates has the old verbiage, with the 1/1/09 effective date of the changes, which many of us seem to (incorrectly) recall was unapproved later.

I'm still going through this mess of Fastrack proposals, edits, approvals, disapprovals, etc. But, bottom line: certified suit required. It's about time, too, given the rash of injuries and deaths from fire over the last 30 years. - GA

[Greg Amy]

G-Force 505 1-piece is $239 SFI-5 rated.
BTW, don't pay extra for a 3.2A/10, /15, or /20 SFI certification: it expires after 5 years. - GA

[erlrich]

It's about time, too, given the rash of injuries and deaths from fire over the last 30 years. - GA
Funny you should mention that; I was just saying the other day that they really need to do something...this problem is quickly reaching epidemic proportion :rolleyes:

[Dave Gomberg]

No, you don't have to throw away the FIA 1986 standard suits. I tried to explain above that we're dealing with two things in parallel. One is the reorganization of the inspection requirements for cars and driver safety items. The other is the reinstatement of the 1986 standard. When it all shakes out, what appears in the most recent Fastrack will be modified to include the 1986 standard.

Dave

[planet6racing]

edited- someone else already saw this and I didn't complete my reading...

Andy - It is a prod request, not IT. My comments revolve more around the system. Just a little armchair SCCAing, as it were...

[jjjanos]

VIN rule is supposed to be voted on early this fall by the Board, Jeff.

K

Danke. Is this long of a delay normal or is there something they are considering?

[dickita15]

No, you don't have to throw away the FIA 1986 standard suits. I tried to explain above that we're dealing with two things in parallel. One is the reorganization of the inspection requirements for cars and driver safety items. The other is the reinstatement of the 1986 standard. When it all shakes out, what appears in the most recent Fastrack will be modified to include the 1986 standard.

Dave

But you do have to throw away any suit that does not have a SFI of FIA certification. silly

[JIgou]

Greg, thank you for doing the legwork on this one. As a side note, are you aware that Acrobat Reader can do a keyword search through a directory of PDF files? I happen to have one folder with all of 2007's Fastracks, and another with 2008 (to date) - if I can help, let me know.


No, you don't have to throw away the FIA 1986 standard suits. I tried to explain above that we're dealing with two things in parallel. One is the reorganization of the inspection requirements for cars and driver safety items. The other is the reinstatement of the 1986 standard. When it all shakes out, what appears in the most recent Fastrack will be modified to include the 1986 standard.

Dave

Dave, do we as competitors need to be writing letters to keep this thing on the top of the list and make sure it hits the GCR / make sure no one at a higher pay grade than yours who "knows better" cuts it for our own good?

BY THE WAY: My read on this in FasTrack is that it's effective 11/1/08, not 1/1/09. (Page 5, 08-fastrack-sept.pdf)

Jarrod

[Dave Gomberg]

It won't do any harm if you send a note to [email protected] asking them to approve the reinstatement of the FIA 1986 standard.

Dave

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

If you have an inside line, why are they making this so difficult to understand?? Why do we have such a push to change it??? Who specifically is pushing for the changes???

I have sent a letter again...

Raymond

[Knestis]

Danke. Is this long of a delay normal or is there something they are considering?

A lot of the things that get changed in IT are done through "bulletins" or "corrections," so don't require full Board action. The VIN thing is an actual rule change so it has to wait for that step to be completed.

K

[pgipson]

But you do have to throw away any suit that does not have a SFI of FIA certification. silly

I don't know how old a suit that would have to be. I bought my current suit in 1996 and it has an SFI label. And I'm pretty sure my 1985 suit had an SFI label also (but I donated it to a corner worker so he could play nascar fire bottle holder).

[dickita15]

Both my suits have tags as well but when I work Tech I see plenty of good condition suits that have no tags. More importantly what incidents have been happening that demonstrates the current suit rules are not adequate. It seems like this rule change is a solution for something that is not a problem. Why on the world would we want to make it harder for some to race if there is no benefit.

[Knestis]

Because SCCA is a partner in SFI's cool restraint-of-trade and price-fixing scheme. I've raged against this for years but only about 5 of us care, so fug it.

K

[dickita15]

And that of course is the real point, now I cannot be sure of the motives, it could be restraint of trade and lining pockets, but my guess is that the CRB and the BOD have a misguided impression that using outside standards shifts responsibility and liability. You know better safe than sorry, well if you feel that way the next logical step is to pick another sport.
You know I have been around long enough to remember when SCCA used to me a leader in this sport.

[jjjanos]

Why on the world would we want to make it harder for some to race if there is no benefit.

Risk management aka Chicken Little Disease.

There are benefits to tightening the rules - reduced chance of injury from fire and lower insurance to the club. The problem with this proposal is that the cost to Topeka is less than benefit, but the overall cost probably exceeds the benefit. That's because the costs fall (in order of magnitude) on drivers, regions, Topeka (if at all).

Drivers (some) will have to fork over $$$ for a new suit and pay higher entry fees due to reduced participation.

Regions will lose revenue due to falling entries.

Topeka may lose some national dues money and whatever profit they make on the per car insurance fee.

This isn't being done for driver safety. If they were interested in driver safety, they would be looking at making nomex optional. I would hazard a guess that the number of drivers injured from overheating far exceeds the total number of fires (let alone the fires that might have injured a driver).

[Rick Starkweather]

FWIW, I can still (somehow!) get into my old two-layer Simpson Heat Shield suit -- dated early 1980. I've taken very good care of it over the years -- no fraying, no oil stains, etc. But it will have to be replaced due to the new standards.

That said, it is probably time for me to do this anyway for safety. The suit is getting a bit tight, and the lack of an adequate air "gap" I'm sure diminshes the suit's effectiveness.

Anyway, I have no problem investing in my longevity! I just hope we don't have to pony up the $$ for a new suit every 5 years.

Rick

[JIgou]

It won't do any harm if you send a note to [email protected] asking them to approve the reinstatement of the FIA 1986 standard.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. Sent my note earlier today.

Jarrod