LRP lap times old vs. new [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

BruceG

08-15-2008, 09:38 AM

Hi Dick

After going to the 3 day racing school at LRP in April(obviously, with the old surface and all the concrete strips in turns 2 and three), I went back on July 7th for a full day of lapping in Formula Skip Barber's. I think we did appr. 100 miles. All my references points in 2 and 3 were gone and the camber seems to have changed between turns one and two(seemed flatter on the old concrete strips). Turns 1,2 and 3 seemed slicker to me than the old surface:yet, the downhill under the bridge seemed to have more grip. Someone mentioned that they used a more expensive type of asphalt in 1,2 and 3(so it would last longer)which means harder.

LRP used us as test subjects for the 2 new chicanes, built for ALMS. They completely destroy the ebb and flow of the old track, in my opinion. You scrub off all your speed on the end of the back straight before the first chicane, the line after you go uphill is completely different before the last chicane, which is another 90 deg. before the bridge.

I hope there is never a SCCA race or track day(SCDA,etc) at LRP that ever has to use the new chicanes!!

Finally, there were a couple of us in racing school who thought we were pretty quick(compared to 80yr old men, people on crutches,etc). When we had our lapping day. we had a few IMSA lite drivers who were there for the race thar weekend that went in with us. They passed me on the first lap and I never saw them again!!. Gosh was I humbled.

Bruce

Dave Patten

08-15-2008, 02:08 PM

By looking at the Small Bore results from the National, lap records should fall significantly. GTL, E, F & H Prod all set new records, all now under 1:00.

The GTL new and old records were by the same car and driver Wilson Wright. The prior record was set at the '07 NARRC Runoffs @ 59.6. The new records are GTL @ 57.6; EP, Kevin Leigh @ 57.9; FP, Steve Gorriaran @ 58.5; HP, Ron Bartel @ 59.9.

GTL dropped 2 full seconds and this was by the same car/driver. With good track conditions all records should drop significantly. :smilie_pokal:

EDIT; Add that the ITR record dropped 1.5 seconds from the record set at the '07 NARRC Runoffs.

Andy Bettencourt

08-15-2008, 02:26 PM

ITR record comparison is not so valid as the class is new and realizing it is still .7 slower than the ITS record and .1 slower than the ITA record.

I think it will depend on the class. The stiffer-sprung cars will gain more than anything that had any ability to soak up the bumps. Not sure how slicks fit into this having never driven on them. I bet the SS records fall slightly and the open wheelers drop big.

maynard

08-15-2008, 05:17 PM

I Think traffic was also a big factor at the pro-it "38" cars. Also most of the cars had full fuel loads so times should be off my car came over the scales 60 pounds heavy plus i had my cool suit on because i firgued 45 minutes race in the heat , but i also think there's aleast another second or two in my car. I can't wait to go back.

Dave Maynard
ITR 325i

Andy Bettencourt

08-15-2008, 05:59 PM

RSTPerformance

08-15-2008, 08:25 PM

I think Andy is right that the stiffer-sprung cars will gain more... Lime Rock is a lot about maintaining momentum, and the Audis (ITB) are more about long tracks were they can "run". The old Lime Rock it was tough to maintain the momentum in the turns with our cars (1800lbs on the front tires) but now that the track was smooth it seemed easy and we were able to "run" down the streights... Big Bend was so much faster for us (seemed like everyone was holding me up), the left hander was so much easier to get to the apex without being loose, the uphill and west bend was the same, but maybe a bit more grip. I didn't have trouble finding my markers. The Downhill had a ton of grip without that big unsettling bump in the apex!

I think over the next year or so ITB times to fall into the 1:02's but we (My brother and I) are happy in the 3's. I had car trouble and turned "normal" lap times and Stephen was 1 - 1.5 seconds a lap faster than normal but was also running on a fresh motor.

NARRC offs will be interesting. I would say that unbroken records could fall by over a second but people will need to behaive to get enough track time.

Raymond

Doc Bro

08-15-2008, 08:33 PM

I will be dissappointed if I don't dip in the 1:00.9xx range at the NRO's, even down 15whp like I am now.

So let me get this straight.

You were 60# overweight, down 15 whp, finished 3rd overall in a 45 min race, beat EVERY ITS lap time, Beat every ITA lap time, lapped every ITA car 2x (except one:happy204:), had a fast lap speed faster than ITS and within a fraction of ITR, had a lap time within .1 of ITR.......AND you have half the seat time as last year.

Fortunately for me, we're having a baby soon and I'll be retiring from ITA racing. Unfortunately for me a Z3 will be hard to sell when a Miata can do all of that....

I expect the abuse Andy, but those ARE the facts my friend.

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-15-2008, 09:21 PM

So let me get this straight.

You were 60# overweight, down 15 whp, finished 3rd overall in a 45 min race, beat EVERY ITS lap time, Beat every ITA lap time, lapped every ITA car 2x (except one:happy204:), had a fast lap speed faster than ITS and within a fraction of ITR, had a lap time within .1 of ITR.......AND you have half the seat time as last year.

Fortunately for me, we're having a baby soon and I'll be retiring from ITA racing. Unfortunately for me a Z3 will be hard to sell when a Miata can do all of that....

I expect the abuse Andy, but those ARE the facts my friend.

R
You got the facts straight. Not sure what you are getting at. The beauty is that an Integra did it before me and a CRX before that...

It just might not be all car. Drop the Z3 at FOM HQ and I will have some new LRP timeslips in your hand by the Runoffs...

robits325is

08-15-2008, 09:39 PM

I was 115lb over at the end of the Pro-IT and my car had dangerous oversteer the entire race. I think I will get to the mid 00s once I get the set up correct - in other words hopefully I can get fast enough to finish 2nd in ITA......

Doc Bro

08-15-2008, 09:56 PM

You got the facts straight. Not sure what you are getting at. The beauty is that an Integra did it before me and a CRX before that...

It just might not be all car. Drop the Z3 at FOM HQ and I will have some new LRP timeslips in your hand by the Runoffs...

What I'm getting at is that IF that is a legal car then;

Either you are THAT good a driver or the ITA Miata needs the gift of lead or both.

Did the 'teg or the CRX do that post lead? ...no.

Did they do it pre-lead to that extent? You know +60#, down 15whp, etc.

While I appreciate the offer, Dan is the smartest guy I know. This is probably it for me (seeing how my son's due date is 9/29 I doubt I'll get to the runoffs) so it doesn't really matter, but for everyone else.....

to quote theGA......just sayin'

PS; If it's not "all car" then are you implying that the ITS BMW's or ITR BMW's are not well driven, or even the ITA BMW for that matter?

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-15-2008, 10:09 PM

For you to infer the car might not be legal ends our fun. Enjoy fatherhood!

Doc Bro

08-15-2008, 10:36 PM

For you to infer the car might not be legal ends our fun. Enjoy fatherhood!

Please Andy,

Don't take the holier than thou approach.

First I didn't imply it wasn't legal, I said IF.....meaning neutral playing field per the rulebook....ie; ITA Miata at 8-9/10ths build. You stated the facts +60#, -15 WHP Is that 10/10ths?

Secondly....YOU were the one saying [at LRP and NJMP] that YOUR head on last years motor wasn't legal, not me, so the implications of legality or illegality came from you not me. I imply nothing. It's simply not that important to me.

I was only stating the facts based on your on track performance relative to very well prepared and very well driven ITR and ITS cars. And the assumption that your car is only 8-9/10ths (because of the +60# and the -15 whp).

I never saw an 8/10ths CRX or 'teg dominate ITS cars like that. That's all.

I'm super psyched for fatherhood...especially after our struggles.

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-15-2008, 10:45 PM

Please Andy,

Don't take the holier than thou approach.

First I didn't imply it wasn't legal, I said IF.....meaning neutral playing field per the rulebook....ie; ITA Miata at 8-9/10ths build. You stated the facts +60#, -15 WHP Is that 10/10ths?

Secondly....YOU were the one saying [at LRP and NJMP] that YOUR head on last years motor wasn't legal, not me, so the implications of legality or illegality came from you not me. I imply nothing. It's simply not that important to me.

I was only stating the facts based on your on track performance relative to very well prepared and very well driven ITR and ITS cars. And the assumption that your car is only 8-9/10ths (because of the +60# and the -15 whp).

I never saw an 8/10ths CRX or 'teg dominate ITS cars like that. That's all.

I'm super psyched for fatherhood...especially after our struggles.

R

Then you really need to listen more when wee talk about my stuff. What I told you was the original head that I had built, assembled and installed out of state from 2006 (and lasted exactly one weekend because I lost the factory water to oil cooler hose and warped it) was illegal because it was improperly ported. The second head I had done was done locally and exacting specs were given. Should you like the rest of the story of my engine woes, you know where to find me.

I can't pretend to understand why some were slow that weekend. Why was Rob faster than me at last years Runoffs when I had all the power and 30 less pounds? You tell me. We have been saying that the track could be as much as 1-2 seconds faster now, yet I was .2 off my record. The numbers seem to work in my mind.

Either way, LRP is the only track up here a Miata holds a record at. CRX at Pocono and NX2000 everywhere else. Lead indeed.

Doc Bro

08-15-2008, 11:09 PM

What I told you was the original head that I had built, assembled and installed out of state from 2006 (and lasted exactly one weekend because I lost the factory water to oil cooler hose and warped it) was illegal because it was improperly ported. .

Illegal none the less. Whether it lasted one race or all season it was illegal. I don't know how much more I have to listen. I heard you say that you had an illegal head on your engine.....how do my listening skills change what you said (and just repeated)? To quote you "I guess we see it differently". I see it as black and white, how do you see it?

I guess it's a good thing that the oil to water cooler hose warped it otherwise that head would've been on it all season....No?

R

Lemme guess your reply.....We're done here , enjoy fatherhood?

Ed Funk

08-16-2008, 06:49 AM

Wish we had a twisted panties icon!! These boys both have theirs in a knot!:)

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 07:43 AM

I guess it's a good thing that the oil to water cooler hose warped it otherwise that head would've been on it all season....No?

R

It would have been on until the motor popped for sure. Since it was built in the winter of 2005 and raced for the first time at the NHIS opener in 2006, it would have been on there the whole time. As 'luck' would have it, I had to remove it and spend another $1200 on a fresh one. Would have been real emabarassing to have that head pulled at an event like the ARRC - mostly because the porting job was sloppy and extended further than 1" into the chanbers - but also because it had never been cut down to get me the .5 bump in compression we are allowed. A poor job all around really that didn't even net the most power.

If you would like to drive the car at the NHMS test day coming up, you are wecome to. I'll bring the stopwatch.

RSTPerformance

08-16-2008, 09:02 AM

Wish we had a twisted panties icon!! These boys both have theirs in a knot!:)

Ed, the great thing about ITC at the pro IT was A) you Won and B) you only could get your own panties in a bunch!!! lol Actually we have listened to some interesting data in all the classes except ITC, how did you find the track??? Faster?

Raymond "Great thing about ITB/ITC (and ITS/ITR I guess) is that none of us currently are wearing panties to get in a bunch..." Blethen

PS: Ed we still have your extra tie downs... Will you be at the RAL weekend? I will be stewarding and will try to remember them. otherwise they are in the trailer if you see it at any racesstop over and greab them if we forget to go to you!!!

StephF

08-16-2008, 11:02 AM

Doc Bro

08-16-2008, 11:05 AM

There are no panties in a bunch here, and no witch hunt. I've no bone to pick with Andy.

It's just hard to read Andy's posts about +60#, unfamiliar tires, -15whp superimposed on such a dominting performance, clearly in his words the car isn't 10/10ths. If you caught the facts then why aren't you voicing concern? Is it because parity in ITA isn't important to folks in other classes? If IT parity isn't important then why does everyone have an opinion about the ITS e36 mess?

The facts are that an ITA car shouldn't dominate ITS and ITR cars when it ISN'T at 10/10ths. Those ITS and ITR cars are 10/10ths and very well driven, by driver's who have generous amounts of seat time this year. How am I wrong here?

As for the test day, sounds good to me.....you're saying that it's all driver (and not car)?

For the test day experiment let's have you, and guys like; Driscoll, Maynard, Harding, Leverone, Henderson and even tGA, all do sessions then, and your times will be fastest. Right?

(Or is it the car??)

R

Ed Funk

08-16-2008, 11:37 AM

What about me? I'd love to be back in a rear drive car, I'm old but not dead!:shrug:

RSTPerformance

08-16-2008, 12:38 PM

Rob-

I can't base anything on this one race...

I qualified 11th with a 1:05.xxx out of 38 cars with an ITB car that wouldn't rev much past 5500rpm (it skipped the entire straight) ... The ITR and ITS cars should probably be under 1:00.000 in my opinion. I do think that some of the best ITS cars were on track but maybe they just were not perfect this weekend... My brother was turning lap times that if he didn't start from last after the first turn incident would have been battling for a top 10 (possibly 7th?) place finish. As it is he came ALL THE WAY through the field to 14th... in an ITB car???

Obviously some people took longer to learn than others, and some people had car problems (such as myself)...

Sure Andy's car is fast, real fast. Why wouldn't he be, it is a perfect car for the track and he has setup data from how many Miata's and how many laps at Lime Rock??? His car is fast at Lime Rock, but I bet Andy's car wont be as fast at tracks like Pocono, simply due to the track. I know our cars are almost untouchable at Pocono but are absolute pigs at NHIS. ITC cars are as fast as ITB cars at Lime Rock, but forget it at Pocono. My nly point is that many times it is as much about track as it is car and/or driver. When I see Andy or any Miata dominate like the CRX or Integra once did at every track then I will start questioning things further.

Sorry Rob, this probably doesn't help your frustration...

Raymond

JLawton

08-16-2008, 01:37 PM

RSTPerformance

08-16-2008, 01:47 PM

jeff- i didn't realize that... I thought he didn't race Pocono cause be couldn't stay up, am I thinking of amy with the ms or someone else???

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 01:49 PM

What I am saying Rob is simple. You get in my car at the test day and we will see how much 'car' is involved.

Again, as to who ran what at LRP, I think my numbers make sense. I honestly think the track is about 1 second faster for IT cars. I ran 2/10ths off my record - add in the second and was 1.2 seconds slower than I think the car/track/driver combo can be. Does that 1.2 seconds of estimate equate to the 60lbs and -15whp? I think you could make the arguement that it is sure close.

I have no idea why the ITS cars didn't run as fast as they have in the past. Might be a question for them. I know Steve Ulfelder has never really been close to them on time but at this race he was within 2/10ths as he ran a personal best. LRP is THE perfect track for the Miata, not to mention I love it there and have more than a few laps in.

If I held the 5 records at WGI and NHMS and Pocono, I might see it your way. I can tell you that if Hunter, Serra, Blaney etc were at the Pro IT, no lapping would have happened at LRP.

You can't measure a cars overall dominance based on one race at one track. It defines a slippery slope. If you want to quantify driver skill in this excersize, I am sure we can set something up for you and I.

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 01:55 PM

Um, Raymond...... A Miata won both races at the Watkins Glen race the other week....... And I think Andy had fast lap at Pocono last year running against Greg? And hasn't run there since.

Not taking sides, just lookin' to prove you wrong!!! :D

Come on Lawton, you are better than this.

A Miata won both races at WGI the other week, running a tick under SM times and a FULL 2 seconds off Greg's track record. Proves what? Don't make me say it.

Andy did NOT have fast lap running against Greg last year in the race, I was actually almost a FULL SECOND slower (1:53.839 vs. 1:52.919). You are remembering me being on pole that race due to a HUGE tow I got from an ITS car on the back side.

Is the car fast and well developed? You bet. As dominant in-and-of-itself as the LRP results might show? Nope.

lateapex911

08-16-2008, 03:18 PM

Where's the darn popcorn icon???

Says the guy in the RX-7 ...you know, the one that's not exactly an integra or a crx or a miata, or even a Z3! But hey, I'm working on it....

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 03:25 PM

Movie is over Jake! Time to shut up and drive.

dpc

08-16-2008, 04:17 PM

So did you put that old head on Pundo's sm or ssm.......dave

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 04:34 PM

So did you put that old head on Pundo's sm or ssm.......dave

He let me use the motor that came in his car when he took delivery. Stock from the pan to the valve cover. 110whp when we took it out. 125whp when we hit the track. Interesting that the intake, header, exhaust and some dyno time with the programmable ECU netted us about 15whp. Simple math estimates that a B&B, port match, .5 point of compression bump and an overbore find the next 14-15 if we can get back to the 139-140 dynojets we had. It's an intersting excersize in all the bolt-ons vs. all the internals.

Currently I don't own a non-warped cylinder head that is IT-prepped. :(

dpc

08-16-2008, 04:38 PM

yes that ans my question!!!!!!! dave

JeffYoung

08-16-2008, 05:51 PM

gran racing

08-16-2008, 09:31 PM

I always thought that Flatout built your own engines. Guess not?

Doc Bro

08-16-2008, 10:07 PM

Not sure why anyone is slamming Andy for admitting that he had an out of state engine builder build an illegal head (with Andy not being aware of it)......

Rob, the hardest thing for me to accept in the last 3-4 years as I have upped the prep level on the car is that some guys just get more out of their cars than me. Once the ITAC got the power/weight ratios on most cars correct, at least in ITS in the SEDiv it became really clear really quick that it was driver and prep level making the difference.

Jeff you've missed it all. Have another sip of the cool-aid. Come up to the NER and say that those ITS and ITR cars are underprepped.

Andy, it's not about me getting in your car, it's about good drivers getting in your car. Are you saying thart you'll spin faster laps in your car than Gorrorian will? No one has mentioned how an 8 (or 9) 10ths car can run with 10/10ths ITR and ITS cars regardless of tracks. I just don't buy it. Believe what you want I really don't care because I'm out but, if a legal 8/10ths Miata can do that the let me introduce you to the next class killer.

No black helicopters, no sky is falling, it's just a bunch of facts. Look at them for what they are.

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 10:20 PM

I always thought that Flatout built your own engines. Guess not?
We did some SM motors this past winter but realized its too much trouble. We don't do machining or anyting so it was just assembly. My bad luck this year had to do with a bad ground believe it or not.

We do the rotories but you can't do anything internally to them and no machining is needed.

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 10:25 PM

Jeff you've missed it all. Have another sip of the cool-aid. Come up to the NER and say that those ITS and ITR cars are underprepped.

Andy, it's not about me getting in your car, it's about good drivers getting in your car. Are you saying thart you'll spin faster laps in your car than Gorrorian will? No one has mentioned how an 8 (or 9) 10ths car can run with 10/10ths ITR and ITS cars regardless of tracks. I just don't buy it. Believe what you want I really don't care because I'm out but, if a legal 8/10ths Miata can do that the let me introduce you to the next class killer.

No black helicopters, no sky is falling, it's just a bunch of facts. Look at them for what they are.

R

I tried to explain to you how the numbers made sense - and can only think that those guys had an off day. I don't know why they didn't run any faster than they every have while many classes set track records that day. How do you explain that?

Maybe Dave Maynard can tell us how much work is done to his engine - including the ECU and dyno tuning they have into it...if you really want to find out what is 10/10ths. He wheels the hell outta that car but I don't think it makes near the power of a Dan Jones level build. I could be (and have been) wrong. Just my gut based on when he was in ITS.

(On edit) Your question about Gorriaran exemplifies my point. Trying to quantify the driver equation is impossible. Take the best driver you know and put you and he in identically prepped cars. You then have some data to work with. Without knowing how much better anyone is than anyone else, you can't say with any confidence that a car is an overdog - especially given a new track surface, a 45 minute race, one driver that holds the track record for the class vs. others from another class that do not etc. It's just not possible - especially when that car/driver doesn't stack up to any other track records in the area. DO I think I can get them? You bet, but the investment in the car and the driver is never ending in order to do so.

Doc Bro

08-16-2008, 11:12 PM

I tried to explain to you how the numbers made sense - and can only think that those guys had an off day. I don't know why they didn't run any faster than they every have while many classes set track records that day. How do you explain that?

Maybe Dave Maynard can tell us how much work is done to his engine - including the ECU and dyno tuning they have into it...if you really want to find out what is 10/10ths. He wheels the hell outta that car but I don't think it makes near the power of a Dan Jones level build. I could be (and have been) wrong. Just my gut based on when he was in ITS.

(On edit) Your question about Gorriaran exemplifies my point. Trying to quantify the driver equation is impossible. Take the best driver you know and put you and he in identically prepped cars. You then have some data to work with. Without knowing how much better anyone is than anyone else, you can't say with any confidence that a car is an overdog - especially given a new track surface, a 45 minute race, one driver that holds the track record for the class vs. others from another class that do not etc. It's just not possible - especially when that car/driver doesn't stack up to any other track records in the area. DO I think I can get them? You bet, but the investment in the car and the driver is never ending in order to do so.

As I expected refocus the arguement. "I was fast ...they all had an off day. I don't know how to explain it.....but I was +60# and on bad tires and -15whp,...but my off day wasn't as bad as all of the ITS field's off day." Uhhh huh. Sure.

It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars. It's not about Dan Jones's car. Maybe he get's more air through his M3 bumper I don't know or care. I know what I see and what are facts. The facts are the facts.

My point about Gorrorian was to prove you wrong. You offered your car and stopwatch to me. I just substituted the driver. Let's do it. If it's not the car then it must be the driver...are you THAT good?

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-16-2008, 11:34 PM

As I expected refocus the arguement. "I was fast ...they all had an off day. I don't know how to explain it.....but I was +60# and on bad tires and -15whp,...but my off day wasn't as bad as all of the ITS field's off day." Uhhh huh. Sure.

It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars. It's not about Dan Jones's car. Maybe he get's more air through his M3 bumper I don't know or care. I know what I see and what are facts. The facts are the facts.

My point about Gorrorian was to prove you wrong. You offered your car and stopwatch to me. I just substituted the driver. Let's do it. If it's not the car then it must be the driver...are you THAT good?

R

Well, it IS about Dave's car if you want to claim it's 10/10ths. I am summarily disputing that assertaion. The only other cars in the race that I suppose you are comparing me to are the Autotechnic cars. Hendo started from the back of the pack so I am not sure how valid his race results are other than he made it all the way up to 4th...if Jeff Harding was there and he wiped the track with all of us and ran 1:00.5, what would you say then? The RX-7 needs weight or HIS car 'could be' illegal? He is after all, the fastest ITS car around LRP currently.

I still haven't heard from you why you think those guys didn't run any faster than they have in the past giving consideration for the new surface when so many ran personal bests and 3 track records were set in our run group alone..Oh ya - 13 track records were set in other classes that day. THIRTEEN for a total of 16 new track records. Care to weigh in on that? I still say my lap times hold water given a new track and all the records set. You say my laps and results are the anomoly...I think it's the cars you are using to compare that seem to be in the minority - you know - FACTS?

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

I just think you are being foolish to look at these results, claim to know the 'facts', not take into account the track-friendly nature of the course, and them summarily claim the car needs lead.

I think you are looking at the deal in a very narrow way, a way we have almost all universally agreed is dangerous, if not stupid - singular race results when many things can't be quantified. We will agree to disagree.

(Edit) Love how you slip in the 'bad tire' comment. They were 'sticker' R6's. Didn't like the 'feel' as much as the Goodyears but to infer they were less than optimal is disingenous at best.

gran racing

08-17-2008, 01:02 AM

Since we're talking old vs. new....

I was there last Wednesday and absolutely noticed changes in the track. I found it a bit difficult since I used to track out pretty far after big bend, the turn onto no name and west bend. On the new track my car got very loose when doing that. While the pavement was faster, those changes will take some getting adjusted to. Could be the same things others were facing too. My lap times? For the most part they were in the 1:07s and my best was a 1:05 flat. Nothing great, although I'm hoping it is due to my tweeked rear suspension but more likely a lack of guts.

ulfelder

08-17-2008, 07:23 AM

It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars.

R

I've followed this thread from an ITS point of view. Rob, you just cannot call the Autotechnics and Maynard cars 10/10ths on that particular day. I saw Dave and Driscoll up ahead, and was right on Henderson's bumper for awhile, and it was obvious everybody was leaving lots on the table, as was I - Driscoll has said he was very loose, Hendo looked the same, I think everybody was tapping the brakes for the Diving Turn (not necessary when everything's just right), and we usually had plenty of trackout left over. The reasons are pretty clear, aren't they?

New surface
At most one test day, and most of us were seeing the track for the first time
Wet qual
45-minute race
Jeff Harding wasn't there, which (let's face it) took some pressure off everybody

To give you some idea just how much was left on the table, Matt Rooke and I each ran our fast lap of the race (1:01.8/1:01.9) on the next to last lap. That's a pretty good indicator that guys were figuring out the track as the race progressed.

The ITS & ITR guys mentioned are all faster than me, and they know this isn't a slam; it's just that on a given track on a given day, a given class will run its own pace, and it's a sucker bet to make sweeping generalizations in such a case.

When the NARCCoffs roll around, expect very low 1:00s/high 59s from Harding, Autotechnic, and Maynard.

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

robits325is

08-17-2008, 07:33 AM

Legality and driver talent aside, there is no way to make a Z3 1.9 as fast as an ITS or ITR 6 cylinder. I understand Rob"s frustration. Everyone wants a fair shot at winning.

Tkczecheredflag

08-17-2008, 07:33 AM

You The beauty is that an Integra did it before me and a CRX before that...
...
Sorry for my ignorance AB - Did what?

Andy Bettencourt

08-17-2008, 09:08 AM

Sorry for my ignorance AB - Did what?

Had individual races where they ran competitively with cars from faster clases. Remember the OMP Challenge? Serra - Blaney, etc.

Doc Bro

08-17-2008, 09:34 AM

[quote=Andy Bettencourt;271800]Well, it IS about Dave's car if you want to claim it's 10/10ths. I am summarily disputing that assertaion. The only other cars in the race that I suppose you are comparing me to are the Autotechnic cars. Hendo started from the back of the pack so I am not sure how valid his race results are other than he made it all the way up to 4th...if Jeff Harding was there and he wiped the track with all of us and ran 1:00.5, what would you say then? The RX-7 needs weight or HIS car 'could be' illegal? He is after all, the fastest ITS car around LRP currently.

I still haven't heard from you why you think those guys didn't run any faster than they have in the past giving consideration for the new surface when so many ran personal bests and 3 track records were set in our run group alone..Oh ya - 13 track records were set in other classes that day. THIRTEEN for a total of 16 new track records. Care to weigh in on that? I still say my lap times hold water given a new track and all the records set. You say my laps and results are the anomoly...I think it's the cars you are using to compare that seem to be in the minority - you know - FACTS?

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

I just think you are being foolish to look at these results, claim to know the 'facts', not take into account the track-friendly nature of the course, and them summarily claim the car needs lead.

I think you are looking at the deal in a very narrow way, a way we have almost all universally agreed is dangerous, if not stupid - singular race results when many things can't be quantified. We will agree to disagree.

(Edit) Love how you slip in the 'bad tire' comment. They were 'sticker' R6's. Didn't like the 'feel' as much as the Goodyears but to infer they were less than optimal is disingenous at best.[/

Here we go again.....questioning their cars to refocus the discussion away from the facts you reported.

My "stupid" view on this subject should play out handsomely when your 8/10ths car dominates at NHIS thisweekend. It'll be interesting to compare your ITA lap times with ITS/R. Will your excuse for your NHIS performance be that the car is now 10/10ths? I apologize for the tire comment, it wasn't disengeuous, don't question my integrity....you were the one bellyaching about them.

Again did Serra and Blaney do that with their post-lead steeds??
R

Andy Bettencourt

08-17-2008, 10:05 AM

Here we go again.....questioning their cars to refocus the discussion away from the facts you reported.

My "stupid" view on this subject should play out handsomely when your 8/10ths car dominates at NHIS thisweekend. It'll be interesting to compare your ITA lap times with ITS/R. Will your excuse for your NHIS performance be that the car is now 10/10ths? I apologize for the tire comment, it wasn't disengeuous, don't question my integrity....you were the one bellyaching about them.

Again did Serra and Blaney do that with their post-lead steeds??
R

What I am trying to get across to you is that almost everyone was faster on the new surface. Why wern't the two cars you hold up as the gold standard? It is FACT that THEY were the anomoly, not me. My numbers make sense, not theirs. 16 track records set that day. I know why *I* didn't go faster.

As far as NHMS goes, you of course know that no ITA car has even sniffed within 1.5 seconds of the ITS track record. Not Greg, not me, not Serra etc. And it's wonderful that you predict a domination when there is no Joe, no Greg, no Hunter etc. to race against. Guess when I win, I don't really win.

On the tires, you now hear what you want to hear. I told you I thought they felt greasy and were not as stable as the Goodyears...but after talking with other drivers, everyone felt the track showed those charateristics to some extent. So in impound I when I thought the tires didn't feel good, I had the ability to seperate what I felt and learn that I was not alone.

My car won't be 10/10ths for a while, maybe not all next year. No money for a new motor. Enjoy it while she is soft.

We won't agree on this so make your last point/take your last shot and I will be satisfied to let it die.

Ed Funk

08-17-2008, 10:52 AM

Ed, the great thing about ITC at the pro IT was A) you Won and B) you only could get your own panties in a bunch!!! lol Actually we have listened to some interesting data in all the classes except ITC, how did you find the track??? Faster?

Raymond "Great thing about ITB/ITC (and ITS/ITR I guess) is that none of us currently are wearing panties to get in a bunch..." Blethen

PS: Ed we still have your extra tie downs... Will you be at the RAL weekend? I will be stewarding and will try to remember them. otherwise they are in the trailer if you see it at any racesstop over and greab them if we forget to go to you!!!

Raymond, I should have gone faster at LRP on the 2nd, my personal goal was to break the itc record of 4.9, but for a variety of reasons that was not to be. I hadn't been there in 2 years (and LRP more so than any of the other 12-14 tracks I've driven pays big dividends to those with practice), I didn't have enough rear roll stifness dialed in so the car pushed everywhere, traffic was a bitch (especially for the slowest class OCIC), I was making an effort to stay out of the way, and my biggest personal problem---I couldn't find my turn-in and therefore the apex at westbend.

I did go 1/2 sec faster than my personal best, but still 1/2 sec slower than the record. I think I can get another 1 sec, with practice, set-up, and good conditions. Steph probably is not going to let me run the NARRC offs because in '05 and '06 her car came home in pieces! So that record may go to some one else. As our cars are probably going to become itb's with the VIN rule change, and I'm still debating joining the ita circus.

The reason that I think the faster classes will have bigger gains on the records is that a bumpy track causes more trouble for a car with power getting it down. "C" cars are not famous for power! I think of the throttle as being an on/off switch! Which causes me on occasion to doubt whether it's wise thinking about an "A" car, I'll have to learn throttle modulation!

And, yes we'll be at RAL, so will collect the tie downs.

:024:

Doc Bro

08-17-2008, 11:22 AM

What I am trying to get across to you is that almost everyone was faster on the new surface. Why wern't the two cars you hold up as the gold standard? It is FACT that THEY were the anomoly, not me. My numbers make sense, not theirs. 16 track records set that day. I know why *I* didn't go faster.

As far as NHMS goes, you of course know that no ITA car has even sniffed within 1.5 seconds of the ITS track record. Not Greg, not me, not Serra etc. And it's wonderful that you predict a domination when there is no Joe, no Greg, no Hunter etc. to race against. Guess when I win, I don't really win.

On the tires, you now hear what you want to hear. I told you I thought they felt greasy and were not as stable as the Goodyears...but after talking with other drivers, everyone felt the track showed those charateristics to some extent. So in impound I when I thought the tires didn't feel good, I had the ability to seperate what I felt and learn that I was not alone.

My car won't be 10/10ths for a while, maybe not all next year. No money for a new motor. Enjoy it while she is soft.

We won't agree on this so make your last point/take your last shot and I will be satisfied to let it die.

No jabs, or shots. It's not about you- it's about how an 8/10ths car can do that. When I wrote my leter to the ITAC a year ago about the weight of the Z3 the summation [by you] was the car was only 8/10ths. Hmmmm....

I used the whole ITS field as the gold standard, not just a lone car.

The NHIS prediction accounts for Lawton....unarguably a 10/10ths car, and Branscombe who has Serra power and 3 wins for the season. Oh yeah... definite slouches there!

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I will always believe that the car is classed light. You'll never convince me otherwise. I don't need the formula thrown at me, I don't care. Call it the next 'teg or CRX. And from the PM's I've gotten I'm not the only one.....

R

BruceG

08-17-2008, 01:39 PM

I agree with both Dave and Andy regarding the new surface and tires.Formula Skip Barbers with BF Goodrich ga/force radials yielded quite different results in turns 1,2 and 3 betwen May and the new surface
on July 7th. One of my racing classmates from April racing school expressed the same feeling after driving with me on July 7th. We were taught to take a high line in turn 3 and the cars felt loose compared to the old surface on that line.

Regards,

BruceG

Andy Bettencourt

08-17-2008, 05:17 PM

I will always believe that the car is classed light. You'll never convince me otherwise. I don't need the formula thrown at me, I don't care. R

So what should it weigh and why?

dominojd

08-17-2008, 08:10 PM

#2485

dominojd

08-17-2008, 08:11 PM

Couldn't resist.

Tkczecheredflag

08-17-2008, 09:06 PM

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

Andy Bettencourt

08-17-2008, 10:16 PM

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

Huh? 128hp vs. 140hp?

dominojd

08-18-2008, 06:04 AM

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

Ok I'll up you one how's about #2711?

Tkczecheredflag

08-18-2008, 06:43 AM

Huh? 128hp vs. 140hp?

AB - You're stating that you could realize 140ish numbers. We're not seeing hp gains north of 145 hp on a legal engine build. I know I should know more about the weight and class process but I'm listening if you care to walk me though it again.

I guess I'm sayin' if we can both get to a similiar HP numbers, shouldn't we be closer in weight? Maybe that's too simple minded on my part but I'm listening again.

Greg Amy

08-18-2008, 07:09 AM

Huh? 133hp vs. 140hp?

Fixed.

Just sayin'... :shrug:

dominojd

08-18-2008, 07:17 AM

What are we talkin here? Stock HP #'s at the crank?

Andy Bettencourt

08-18-2008, 07:34 AM

dominojd

08-18-2008, 07:38 AM

Why don't you guys just build one of these overdogs and be done with it?

Because Miata's are gay. :D

Andy Bettencourt

08-18-2008, 07:41 AM

Because Miata's are gay. :D

Tell me something I DON'T know....

Tkczecheredflag

08-18-2008, 07:53 AM

Tim,

We can't race dyno's. I quote my dynojet numbers. I would be happy to put your car on our dyno to make a solid comparision at my cost. Judging by what your car does to mine on starts, we ain't making near the same hp...and if it's Serra's stuff, I GUARANTEE it ain't even close.

Done.
AB - I am happy to share my dyno sheets with you and would welcome time on your dyno too - We can discuss off line if you'd like.

As far as the "starts" go - though I don't fall into the Serra, Bettencourt, Hunter, Blaney "great driver" category - I've alway considered myself a very good starter - Driver/Starter vs HP:shrug: Maybe. While you guys are spending all you time on the dyno, I work on hand/foot and eye coordination, for hours daily - really:D.

Re- the overdogs - I like the Miata - I struggle gettin' my big butt in and out - reminds me of the CRX - scary.

JLawton

08-18-2008, 07:57 AM

Tell me something I DON'T know....

I thought you were done?? In fact, that's the SECOND time you've said that in this thread!! :lol: (but you gotta admit, Joe is funny!!)

You are very passionate about this topic (and I can respect that. You'd make a great super hero) but you MUST realize by now that you're hitting your head against a wall trying to convince EVERYONE that it's classed right. Even monkeys learn after the first time!! (damn, I crack myself up!!) Let it goooooooooooooooooo.

in regards to building one. You'll see the Saturn for sale some time in the near future......

Greg Amy

08-18-2008, 08:20 AM

Greg, sorry - mine's a 94 so it's 128hp.
1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

And (to address your next defense) if the 1994 and 1995 Miata were classed on separate lines, and the 1995 was classified at 2485# - which in all fairness it should be - then the 1994 Miata, once proven to be the overdog that it is, would eventually get that same 2485# and we'd be back to the same end. But, as it stands now, you (plural Miata drivers "you") get to burn your candles at both ends without injury.

That is inequitable.

The Miata is an overdog. Plain and simple. I really do like 'em, it's a wonderful car; just like the E36, it's a car that's truly worth more than the sum of its parts. The very fact that a full-up Spec Miata - probably a 8/10s prep IT car, if even that once you consider the suspension, engine, and tire differences - can be reasonably competitive in ITA is proof of that.

Want to stop the bitching? Follow your own process, the one you both simultaneously praise and hide behind, and put the Miata at 2485#, which is the weight it would have using a horsepower rating of 133. The car will STILL be extremely competitive and then you can truly hide behind "the process" without appearance of hypocrisy.

Really, "just sayin'". - GA

Andy Bettencourt

08-18-2008, 08:45 AM

1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

And (to address your next defense) if the 1994 and 1995 Miata were classed on separate lines, and the 1995 was classified at 2485# - which in all fairness it should be - then the 1994 Miata, once proven to be the overdog that it is, would eventually get that same 2485# and we'd be back to the same end. But, as it stands now, you (plural Miata drivers "you") get to burn your candles at both ends without injury.

That is inequitable.

The Miata is an overdog. Plain and simple. I really do like 'em, it's a wonderful car; just like the E36, it's a car that's truly worth more than the sum of its parts. The very fact that a full-up Spec Miata - probably a 8/10s prep IT car, if even that once you consider the suspension, engine, and tire differences - can be reasonably competitive in ITA is proof of that.

Want to stop the bitching? Follow your own process, the one you both simultaneously praise and hide behind, and put the Miata at 2485#, which is the weight it would have using a horsepower rating of 133. The car will STILL be extremely competitive and then you can truly hide behind "the process" without appearance of hypocrisy.

Really, "just sayin'". - GA

It's like crack - I can't stop. Actually, factual errors bother me (and for the noobs):

Greg - got your years wrong. The 94-95 car was 128hp. The 96-97 car was 133. As you know, the early car was classed first. The later car was requested and classed. There were 3 choices.

1. Class the 96-97 car using 133hp on a seperate line
2. Combine the two at the higher weight
3. Combine the two at the lower weight

Option 3 was chosen because the motors didn't change. Only a simple Swap from OBD-1 to OBD-2 ECU's netted the extra 5 hp rating. Since an ECU allowance was allowed and the early car was already classed, it was decided to go with option 3. The cars have the EXACT same potential in IT trim as you know. A decision I would stand behind in any situation in the future with any other car. And as most of you know, we have been over and over this.

There is no precident in the 'process' for something like this. If anything, seperating them would be the 'perfect' thing to do because of the different hp ratings. Given their potential in IT trim, nobody would build one (a 96-97) but that is neither here nor there.

So in the end - the cars should be on seperate lines, nobody runs a 96-97 because it makes NO sense and you have to wait until a PCA corrects the 'more than the sum of it's parts' error...should it ever arise...and given the CRX's dominance at big events, I fail to see a groundswell of support.

The ITAC took into account the facts and made a decision on the combination. I would support a seperation of the spec lines...but with the removal of the VIN rule...anyone with a 96-97 swaps out the wiring harness and changes the year on their reg form...

Just sayin'.

dpc

08-18-2008, 09:38 AM

You know this post is getting old when GA posts something positive about a Miata.......dave

Greg Amy

08-18-2008, 12:09 PM

You know this post is getting old when GA posts something positive about a Miata...
Hey, Ta-tas are good cars, no doubt...if they weren't, no one would give two snots about what weight there were classified at... :shrug:

CRallo

08-18-2008, 12:59 PM

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

Hey Andy: Anyone? :D also, you should sandbag a lil bit, then you wouldn't hurt everyone's feelings as much and then they would not bitch so much ;) that said overdog or not: being slower than the last overdog(so far) does not mean you are not an overdog...

that said,
i dunno who's a better driver than who but I do know that the ProIT race had some of the best racing and much of the best driving of the weekend. It's amazing what some of the guys get away with that drive the fast cars just because they have the hp to power around the track...

StephF

08-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Because Miata's are gay. :D

Jesus Christ Joe! Give us some warning before you do that! I just ruined my keyboard!
:lol:

dominojd

08-18-2008, 04:17 PM

Jesus Christ Joe! Give us some warning before you do that! I just ruined my keyboard!
:lol:

I have that effect on people. I think Jake spit OJ on his keyboard at some point. Next time I will post a warning.

"Beware comment may cause liquids to spew from your mouth or nose." :D

schris892

08-18-2008, 05:05 PM

JLawton

08-18-2008, 05:28 PM

Oh...........my.............god!!!

7racing

08-18-2008, 05:38 PM

I have no dog in this fight and not to defend nor attack anyone.....

My Nissan 240sx qualified on the pole for an ITS/ITA NARRC race on a drying track at LRP a couple years ago. This was against Maynard and a few of the other shoes in ITS. Sometimes, it comes down to driver vs. driver. (Most of the fast ITS cars beat me into turn 1 at the start, BTW....I do have some cool pictures of that!) It sounds like "the fast guys" weren't at LRP for Andy's big adventure, so this one particular race might not be the one to question him on (I mean, there are so many others.....:lol:)

I now return you to such fun activities as "Miata Bashing" and "What would TheGA do?". :)

schris892

08-18-2008, 07:42 PM

I am not miata bashing. Many other cars in the series are much faster then the other cars in that same class. The ITA miata is one example. It may be unfair advantages in classification or the driver may be better. Either way that car is fast and I was voicing my opinion. Its the same as Dan Jone's car. He fires up the car and just by listening it does not sound legal. If he believes it is, while that is purely fiction on his part. He is offline and sliding around as the car pulls ten cars down the straight away.

Kurt

JeffYoung

08-18-2008, 07:49 PM

Kurt, don't know you, but probably not a good idea to come on here and in your first couple of posts start accusing folks of illegality.

I've raced with ITA and ITS Miatas. I've seen ITA Miatas in the SEDiv win "overall" against good S cars at certain tracks, and I've seen them get beat pretty handily at others. I certainly don't see an overdog like with the E36 325. I see a car that when prepped to the max and driven to the max wins. Just like Integras and NX2000s and CRXes and 240sxes.

If the Miata is at process weight, then that's really end of story.

dominojd

08-18-2008, 08:10 PM

If the Miata is at process weight, then that's really end of story.

And that is the big debate. :shrug:

JeffYoung

08-18-2008, 08:14 PM

Doc Bro

08-18-2008, 09:49 PM

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

5hp costs like what is the real question.... For the average guy who's almost there how much does another 5hp cost? Dyno time alone. Do the math....

Jeremy you DO have a dog in this fight. How quickly would your front row 240 have sold if it was a front row Miata at 4K. NY Minute??

Jeff Y. Don't think Kurt accused anyone of cheating. Just brought up previously mentioned facts in this thread and others. Ya know illegally ported head, questionable vacuum line into ECU before they were free. All stuff that's out in the open and not personal attacks.

R

PS; Doing the NHIS enduro in a Miata....that'll make my opinon more objective I do believe.

JeffYoung

08-18-2008, 09:54 PM

Actually, he flat out accused Dan Jones of being blatantly illegal. See below.

I'm all for using the process, and think it should be used here. But I'll tell ya, if you think 70 lbs is going to be the difference between a well driven car and an "average one" (and that's coming from an average driver) dream on. I'm well aware of regional championship winning cars that were significantly over weight.

Andy didn't know the head he got from a builder down South (who I know) was illegally ported, and neither would you guys if he hadn't been straight up and told you. Just really weird to me that you are beating him up on that.

On the MAP sensor, I followed that one with great interest......aggressive interpretation of the rules, I agree. You guys all had a chance to protest it. Did you?

I find, as an outsider, a lot of this thread to be out of line and frankly sour grapes.

I am not miata bashing. Many other cars in the series are much faster then the other cars in that same class. The ITA miata is one example. It may be unfair advantages in classification or the driver may be better. Either way that car is fast and I was voicing my opinion. Its the same as Dan Jone's car. He fires up the car and just by listening it does not sound legal. If he believes it is, while that is purely fiction on his part. He is offline and sliding around as the car pulls ten cars down the straight away.

Kurt

Z3_GoCar

08-18-2008, 10:10 PM

Is the whole issue on process weight the 128 v. 133 hp difference?

If the cars on the same line came with a "highest" hp of 133 hp, I have to agree, that should be the number used in the process. Using the RX8 as an example, we've decided for better or for worse to live and die by stock hp ratings.

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

Ha, if that were the case then the Z3 should weigh within 50lbs of the Miata instead of 220lbs. R&T listed the factory hp at 138hp. In the introduction to the Z3 they state,

Power to weight-wise, the Miata (it's shadow never really leaves, does it?) has a mathmatical edge at 17.2 lb./bhp versus the Z3's 19.2.

If anything the Miata also can go lower than the Z3 because they can relocate the upper spring pertch. The Z3 has to live with the location on the chassis and can only get short springs. My lowest ride height on the rear is 6", we give up a whole 1/2" on rear ride height. So when the rear suspension is taken into account they should even weigh the same.

James

Doc Bro

08-18-2008, 10:14 PM

I see the inference Jeff. I didn't give the statement credibility, but it was written. How you interpret the note of a car -I translated as a far fetched POV... my bad.

I'll go very strongly on record as saying I have no sour grapes toward Andy, FOM, or Miata's.

What I DO have sour grapes about: (and remember Andy said he has Pete P's SM engine, +60#, -15whp....NOT a full ITA build) No personal attacks here....just quotes.

How a 8/10ths car dominates (via lap time) 9-10/10ths cars from faster classes...including ALL cars from ITA and ITS and only 1 car from ITR.

It is either the car or the driver. If Andy claims to be THAT good, then I'm totally fine with everything (ie weight, classing, everything). I don't doubt that he's a better driver than me. I've said that directly to him. As I see it; racing comes down to 2 things...the car and the driver.

If it's not the driver (which can be proven/disproven) then it must be the car...no?

Great point James. The ITA Z3 came at 138 hp. Its ITA weight is 2600....within 5 hp of the 133hp Miata (but way off in weight) and it has an inferior rear suspension design compared to the Miata's....but there is no consideration for rear design in the "formula". Apparently the formula only considers the part of the car in front of the driver's butt. But, seeing how we live and die by the 'formula' it must be right.....

R

Tkczecheredflag

08-18-2008, 10:23 PM

Is the whole issue on process weight the 128 v. 133 hp difference?

If the cars on the same line came with a "highest" hp of 133 hp, I have to agree, that should be the number used in the process. Using the RX8 as an example, we've decided for better or for worse to live and die by stock hp ratings.

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?
Jeff - I think the "ptential" build should also be considered.

Greg Amy made the points some very very valid points below that I thought had merit.

tGA says "1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

Seems like a good argument from where I stand.

The point I am interested in learning about is the "potential build." If I max out my legal build Integra at 145 hp and the Miata maxs out at 140ish - Then why is my weight spec #2620???

Z3_GoCar

08-18-2008, 10:32 PM

Actually, he flat out accused Dan Jones of being blatantly illegal. See below.

I'm all for using the process, and think it should be used here. But I'll tell ya, if you think 70 lbs is going to be the difference between a well driven car and an "average one" (and that's coming from an average driver) dream on. I'm well aware of regional championship winning cars that were significantly over weight.

Andy didn't know the head he got from a builder down South (who I know) was illegally ported, and neither would you guys if he hadn't been straight up and told you. Just really weird to me that you are beating him up on that.

On the MAP sensor, I followed that one with great interest......aggressive interpretation of the rules, I agree. You guys all had a chance to protest it. Did you?

I find, as an outsider, a lot of this thread to be out of line and frankly sour grapes.

Jeff,

He accused Dan's motor of "sounding illegal" If there's one thing you should know about single vanos motors is the cam timing isn't set from the factory with a key, the cam sprockets are slotted for the mounting bolts....

James

JeffYoung

08-18-2008, 10:35 PM

C'mon now. Not that it matters to me, but his second post on this board he said Dan's motor was illegal. Read the post. That's bad form to me, sorry.

Jeff,

He accused Dan's motor of "sounding illegal" If there's one thing you should know about single vanos motors is the cam timing isn't set from the factory with a key, the cam sprockets are slotted for the mounting bolts....

James

JeffYoung

08-18-2008, 10:38 PM

Not quibbling with you guys but you do need to read up on the process.

You start with stock hp.

You multiply by an "IT potential" factor. This ranges from 10% to 30%, or soemthing like that. The default is 25%.

You then have subjective adders/subtractors for brakes, suspension (front and rear) and torque.

What's the stock Integra hp? I think it gets a 25% adder, as does the Miata, the Z3, the NX2000, etc.

You take the stock integra hp, add in 100 lbs for torque and I can see a 200 lb difference between it an a 128 stock hp Miata.

The Z3, I agree, the differnence in weight I don't see just by "roughly" looking at the process.

Z3_GoCar

08-18-2008, 10:57 PM

C'mon now. Not that it matters to me, but his second post on this board he said Dan's motor was illegal. Read the post. That's bad form to me, sorry.

You're right Jeff, I had to go back and re-read the post I'd read a couple of hours ago. I thought the first time I read it he said Dan's motor sounds illegal. I was offering a reason why it might sound "cammy" when it's not. Also, the intake on the M-50 is the envy of every other S/M-52 out there. I wish I could keep the M-50 manifold, but then it wouldn't be legal if I did, so off it goes.

James

Dano77

08-18-2008, 11:02 PM

To quote a very respected person"I have no dog in this fight". Niethe rdo I,but the late 95 and 96-7 miata also heave the higher comp pistons ergo 133 vs 128. You know,the pistons we were said to have installed in our 95. The 93 was built incorrectly & the cheatin owner has been dealt with. Oh yeah,the theme from Jaws should be building in SM & IT7 right about now. C-YA
Dan

JLawton

08-19-2008, 06:55 AM

Wow, I'm impressed. You guys are letting Kurt off the hook fairly easy!!

lateapex911

08-19-2008, 11:55 AM

yea, that comment was odd. My motor sounds "cheated up", but if you give me 5 minutes I can take my LEGAL carb off, and bolt in an ILLEGAL carb (Secondaries are mechanically actuated, not vacuum actuated, no actual performance difference), and the car will SOUND legal.

I'm happy to do the swap for any doubters.

Point being is that sometimes (most often) reality and perceptions don't align.

I also think I read in that post that there were some serious "insinuations' being made, although the grammer was odd and it's hard to really draw conclusions.

Annnnyyywayyyy............

So, for those of us who have seen a well driven/prepped ITA car in person, what do we think the Mosers would do at Lime Rock??

(And lets not get too silly about the legality of their cars, for the sake of argument, lets assume they could have achieved the same results using the legal distributor instead of the ones used in Ohio..)

Andy Bettencourt

08-19-2008, 12:09 PM

I believe this is my first post, however I have watched scca club racing for years. Alot of cars are too fast. It makes no sense why you have to cheat and run alone. Andy was always a mid pack racer in its, however in ita he beats the its cars with his stock miata. Lots of other cars are extremely to fast as well, all you have to do is watch one event and pick them out. What is the fun if no one is around to race with. If you are out front winning your car should be built to the wall with every part available, not 60 pounds over and -15 hp.

Kurt

Kurt who? Help us know who you are.

I have been just reading a day and a half but this one is priceless. Define for me 'mid-pack' ITS racer. 3rd in NARRC points, 10ths off track records at NHIS, couple of pole positions, 1 win - oh ya, that was my first year in Club racing. Only ran another half a season in ITS after switching to this very Miata.

'Stock' Miata? Stock? The only think stock about it is the engine internals. All of the developed bolt-ons and programmable ECU along with 4 hours of dyno time went into the prep for that weekend alone. The suspension is 100% IT build.

Anyway, I guess it's all part of the game. Heard the same grousing about Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Maybe I should be proud of MY accomplishents instead of getting defensive. I'll try that for a while.

JLawton

08-19-2008, 12:13 PM

yea, that comment was odd. My motor sounds "cheated up", but if you give me 5 minutes I can take my LEGAL carb off, and bolt in an ILLEGAL carb (Secondaries are mechanically actuated, not vacuum actuated, no actual performance difference), and the car will SOUND legal.

I'm happy to do the swap for any doubters.

Point being is that sometimes (most often) reality and perceptions don't align.

I also think I read in that post that there were some serious "insinuations' being made, although the grammer was odd and it's hard to really draw conclusions.

Gee Jake, a little harsh on the poor guy!!! :rolleyes:

I see where you're going with the Moser question.

What you're REALLY asking is whether the CRXs of the Mosers (10/10ths build) would keep up with Andy in his Miata dispelling any notion that the Miata is at the correct weight.......

Waaaaaaaiiiit a minute. That sounds like using on track performance to determine the performance potential and therefore the correct weight..........

;)

.

JLawton

08-19-2008, 12:19 PM

Kurt who? Help us know who you are.

I have been just reading a day and a half but this one is priceless. Define for me 'mid-pack' ITS racer. 3rd in NARRC points, 10ths off track records at NHIS, couple of pole positions, 1 win - oh ya, that was my first year in Club racing. Only ran another half a season in ITS after switching to this very Miata.

'Stock' Miata? Stock? The only think stock about it is the engine internals. All of the developed bolt-ons and programmable ECU along with 4 hours of dyno time went into the prep for that weekend alone. The suspension is 100% IT build.

Anyway, I guess it's all part of the game. Heard the same grousing about Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Maybe I should be proud of MY accomplishents instead of getting defensive. I'll try that for a while.

That's what I'm talkin' about!!!!

Kurt, what Jake and Andy are trying to say is you're a zipper head and have no idea what you're talking about.

Andy, I'm surprised it took you so long to respond!! :lol:

.

Greg Amy

08-19-2008, 12:21 PM

Why is Jeff Lawton reminding me of that kid that always ran around the schoolyard yelling "Did you hear what he said about your momma?!?!?"...again...?

7racing

08-19-2008, 12:58 PM

Annnnyyywayyyy............

So, for those of us who have seen a well driven/prepped ITA car in person, what do we think the Mosers would do at Lime Rock??

(And lets not get too silly about the legality of their cars, for the sake of argument, lets assume they could have achieved the same results using the legal distributor instead of the ones used in Ohio..)

I don't know the Mosers cars, never seen either of them race, so I am not going to bite as to whether or not they are fast at LRP. Regardless of the outcome, there will be the following arguments on the results (depending on the results):
New to the track
Setup difficulties
Old Tires vs New Tires
The lemon pepper chicken at dinner causing a rash
Track Temp
Air Temp
Rain/no rain
Dehydration (not enough beer the night before)
Over-hydration (too much beer the night before)
Jet-lag/time difference
Time of day
solar flares bouncing off of some swamp gas showing ET on his bike riding down no-name.
etc, etc, etc.

It will never be clear-cut as to whose car/which driver is better. We all know there are a LOT of factors that go into winning a race. Picking the "hot car" is just 1 of them.

Doc Bro

08-19-2008, 01:17 PM

Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Ahh yes but then the Teg got weight, and the NX had the Stig driving:smilie_pokal:...look what the new owners' done with it....ball it up at RA.

R

Andy Bettencourt

08-19-2008, 01:35 PM

Ahh yes but then the Teg got weight, and the NX had the Stig driving:smilie_pokal:...look what the new owners' done with it....ball it up at RA.

R

You mean like when Richie Hunter runs 1:02 flat on the 'old' Lime Rock last year? Ask him how 'prepped' his motor was. Just bolt-ons baby. Must be the car.

:rolleyes:

Rabbit05

08-19-2008, 02:24 PM

I was at Lime Rock for the first half of the IT race ,( as a spectator only:(.) The wife and I were watching at the uphill and then we walked down to west bend. Andy's car looked smooooth....no corrections , no dancing around like some of the other cars. He seemed to be on the marks every lap. And In My Opinion , that's what makes a quick car at Lime Rock. In ITC we usually ran at the upper end of the field of ITA. Now go to Pocono or Watkins Glen..forget about it the ITA cars would walk away. LRP is a momentum track.<-----( IMO.)

And Nevermind the SM's are turning 1:00:00 lap times now at LRP....:blink:
So wouldn't/shouldn't that transfer into a fast IT car ?

Just my 2 cents....

-John VanDenburgh

Ed Funk

08-19-2008, 02:32 PM

Oh Hell! John, I was hoping no one I knew saw my pathetic attempts at westbend!

Maybe I'll move the car to itb and paint it pink or something!

StephF

08-19-2008, 03:16 PM

Oh Hell! John, I was hoping no one I knew saw my pathetic attempts at westbend!

Maybe I'll move the car to itb and paint it pink or something!

HEY! HANDS OFF THE PAINTGUN, BUCKWHEAT!!!
:mad1:

Ed Funk

08-19-2008, 03:48 PM

S-dear

Rabbit05

08-19-2008, 04:15 PM

StephF

08-19-2008, 04:41 PM

By far the best Civic thru west bend , hands down , all day !!:eclipsee_steering: I wish I was out there to race with ya ! It was great to see some great IT action ....:happy204:

BUT... pink ?!? ...:blink:...... how about with orange poka-dots ??

...oh yeaaah...:023:...( neon colors only of course )

-John ( I keep eyeballin' that '68 ITC 510 ) VanDenburgh

Oh sure, encourage him why doncha?
Tell you what, you get that '68 510, and we will make a race event just for you...Everyone gets to make one paintstroke on it with a brush for each dollar they donat to racing Against Leukemia.
Just THINK of the custom paintjob you will get out of that one!

benspeed

08-19-2008, 04:45 PM

I can't wait to see what people say about my custom cold airbox I just fabbed up. Got the metal cuts to prove it!

This thread is what makes IT racing fun - we know Andy and Greg are really transvestite lovers who date down and out machine shop workers who will fab up engine components that are then resold to the Japanese car makers who patent them and pay millions in royalty which is what really funds the evil Flatout empire and Kessler quest for road racing domination. And they share panties but only after running an enduro in very humid conditions to maximize odor.

This occurs while the BMW camps quietly bide their time by infiltrating the Japanese marque camps with spies who quitely and careful rob the intellectual property of each team that will then be brought to bear in a class action lawsuit against these carmakers for discrimiting against anglo saxon carmakers because it costs them more to cheat.

Hey Kurt - remember, Dan Jones served in Viet Nam and won't talk about his tour of duty. I think that's because he, like, killed people. But that's only a rumor I started....

lateapex911

08-19-2008, 05:04 PM

Hee hee, yea, I just reread that comment from Kurt the mystery man. Kurt, if you're brave enough to post again, think more carefully...your comments like " Lots of other cars are extremely to fast as well, all you have to do is watch one event and pick them out.", and such will get you taken to task, but honestly, the ridiculousness of those comments is more the work of a guy just being a jerk trying to start a internet flaming war. Tell us, have you ever been IN a racecar? DRIVEN one?? Developed one? It's a different view.......

Sure, I'm tossing out the Mosers and "on track" performance here..why not??? Isn't that what the whole thread is about???

Seriously, don't make me dig thru results, but, on the old minefeild/country potholed road of a track, we've seen Serra in the low 2s, numerous times, as well as Richie Hunter, and on and on.

Next, the "but that was BEFORE the evil ITAC penalized them with the weight!" rebuttal comes up.

Uh sorta, but not really. And think about this...when Serra was romping on everyone, and the weight was adjusted during the Great Realignment, he was at an after season video/pizza party, and his comment was, essentially: "Ho hum, so what, big deal. We've been running about 80 pounds over all season. I'll just tuck a little more someplace I need the balance"......

So, yea, the Mosers, boys.....or Blaney if he got pissed enough to drive a CRX in anger, or AJ Nealy...I'm thinking Andy...et al, will be taking outside classes in "coping".

Andy Bettencourt

08-19-2008, 05:24 PM

Seriously, don't make me dig thru results, but, on the old minefeild/country potholed road of a track, we've seen Serra in the low 2s, numerous times, as well as Richie Hunter, and on and on.

Next, the "but that was BEFORE the evil ITAC penalized them with the weight!" rebuttal comes up.

Uh sorta, but not really. And think about this...when Serra was romping on everyone, and the weight was adjusted during the Great Realignment, he was at an after season video/pizza party, and his comment was, essentially: "Ho hum, so what, big deal. We've been running about 80 pounds over all season. I'll just tuck a little more someplace I need the balance"......

Serra's old TR at LRP was a 1:01.6xx.