Wheel sizes in ITR.

[ekim952522000]

Ok so I am a little confused does the underlined part override the first part in bold or do both parts apply? The way I read this is, if a car came with 16" wheels and is classified in ITR you can run 15" wheels. Is that correct or do both apply?


7. Wheels/Tires
a. Any wheel/tire may be used within the following limitations:
1. Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may
fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with
metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and
cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit
fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as
well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13)
inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit up to a fifteen
(15) inch wheel. Cars may not fit wheel diameters smaller
than those listed on their spec line. All other cars shall
retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for
their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type
wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.
Cars classified in ITR may utilize any wheel diameter up to
17” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger.

[joeg]

up to; so yes

[ekim952522000]

ok so you are allowed to downsize wheels in ITR.

[Greg Amy]

ok so you are allowed to downsize wheels in ITR.
No. All of those rules must be taken as a whole, not just the last line.

There are two restrictions; both must be heeded. Taken together they mean you can use any wheel diameter between the stock size and 17", inclusive.

Examples:


your stock size is 15". You can use 15", 16", or 17"
your stock size is 16". You can use 16" or 17".
your stock size is 17". You can use 17".
your stock size is 18". You can use 17" or 18".

HOWEVER, I can see where one can interpret where ITR has a special set of rules; I assure you it was never intended. It's yet another example of a poorly-worded addendum to a poorly-worded addendum to a poorly-worded rule. We went through this whole schmozzle when the rule was first written, then again when it was re-written. Looks like it's time for yet another "re-writ"...

Where's the topic I started on how to write a rule...?

[ekim952522000]

Thanks. That what I thought the intent was I just wanted to make sure. But I only new what the intent was because I remember the talks about it. If I was reading it for the first time I would have thought downsizing was perfectly ok.

[gran racing]

Gesh, that is confusing how it's worded. I didn't take it to mean what you said Greg. That's gotta be changed. Speaking of which, why is this just written for ITR? Wouldn't it be better if just written as a standard rule for all IT classes. Granted I'm not aware of any other classes that came OEM with greater than 17" but even if that never happens, it would reduce the confusion along with a re-write.

[ekim952522000]

hmmmm......Greg on second thought reading it again it does not make any sense the second part of the rules has to override the first or it would NOT be legal for cars that came with 18" wheels to downsize to 17" wheels. So if it is legal for cars to downsize to 17" wheels from 18" it should be legal for cars to downsize to 15" from 16" right?

<----really confused now.


Just brain storming on a boring Friday how bout?

Cars classified in ITC or ITB may utilize any wheel diameter up to
15” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger. Max wheel width in ITB & ITC is 6"

Cars classified in ITA or ITS may utilize any wheel diameter up to
16” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger. Max wheel width in ITA & ITS is 7"

Cars classified in ITR may utilize any wheel diameter up to
17” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger. Max wheel width in ITR is 8.5"

[SPiFF]

Why do we write dumb rules like this anyway? So people can get off rules nerding on these forums? Why can't the wheel rules be a little more sane such that we limit the max width per class?

[gran racing]

Why does it matter if a car used a wheel diameter larger than 17"? What advantage do they gain? I don't understand why this new rule was added. I'll have to search for that thread Greg referenced.

[JeffYoung]

Whole bunch of folks whittled on that rule and that is the best we came up with. It's not good, is it?

The thinking in the larger than 17s" was some ITR cars came with 18"s stock and we wanted to allow them to use their stock size.

[ekim952522000]

Why does it matter if a car used a wheel diameter larger than 17"? What advantage do they gain? I don't understand why this new rule was added. I'll have to search for that thread Greg referenced.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22779

[lateapex911]

Why does it matter if a car used a wheel diameter larger than 17"? What advantage do they gain? I don't understand why this new rule was added. I'll have to search for that thread Greg referenced.

Because if the larger wheel is disallowed, we have issues. Somebody now has to buy wheels when they could have raced on their stock rims, and...more importantly, and we decree that 17" is the largest allowable size, and the Futruristic Wombat comes with 19's, we might eliminate that car entirely because it's brakes may not fit within a 17" wheel. So it's a bit of future proofing as well.

[ekim952522000]

Are cars that come with 18's allowed to run 16's? How would someone know?

[lateapex911]

Because the rule says you can.

Cars classified in ITR may utilize any wheel diameter up to
17” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger.

So, your ITR car came with 16"...you can go 17, or 16 or 15....ANY diameter up to 17.

your ITR car came with 18, well, your ITR car can use any diameter up to 17, or you can keep the 18s.

But, you can't run 18s if it only came with 17s.

The anomaly is a 19" stock fitment car could run 1 -17, or 19, but not 18, if logic serves me.

[ekim952522000]

ok so Greg says if your car came with 16" wheels you can run 16's or 17's

You say if your car came with 16's you can run 15's, 16's, or 17's

so the part that says
Cars classified in ITR may utilize any wheel diameter up to
17” or retain their stock diameter wheels if larger.

Over rules this part that says
Cars may not fit wheel diameters smaller
than those listed on their spec line

Sorry just want to make sure I know for a fact because this will have a effect on my plans for next season.

[gran racing]

Because if the larger wheel is disallowed, we have issues.

I was saying the opposite. Why not let them run a 22" rim if that's what they want? I can kinda see not allowing cars in other classes to run a rim smaller than OEM.

Exception: Cars classified in ITR may use any wheel diameter including those listed on their spec line.

[lateapex911]

I certainly see the issue , but I disagree with Greg's position.

Now, I'm not the final say, that's for sure, but, you'd think that it would be organized differently to itemize the exceptions, and the ITR statement would read something like ITR cars may use their stock size wheels or any diameter up to 17"

I' DO agree with Jeff AND Greg, that's no great bit of rule writing! (Sorry to the authors!)

[Z3_GoCar]

That's funny, because my spec line says 17" rims. But, my came with both 16" and 17" rims. I read it that the minimum size is what's listed on the spec line and that ITR cars can run anything between spec line size minimum and 17" maximum, unless the stock size is above 17" then the stock size is the maximum and 17" is the minimum. Pretty much the same as Greg said. What if the stock size is wider than 8.5" say stock rims are 17x8 front and 17x9 rear?

James

[dj10]

That's funny, because my spec line says 17" rims. But, my came with both 16" and 17" rims. I read it that the minimum size is what's listed on the spec line and that ITR cars can run anything between spec line size minimum and 17" maximum, unless the stock size is above 17" then the stock size is the maximum and 17" is the minimum. Pretty much the same as Greg said. What if the stock size is wider than 8.5" say stock rims are 17x8 front and 17x9 rear?

James

8.5 is max, any way you'd probably develop a push with wider rears not to mention the extra money for different sizes.

[Greg Amy]

Oh, gawd, here we go again...

Jake, if you're correct, and:

...[an ITR car can use] ANY diameter up to 17.
Then that is DIRECTLY contrary to the whole point of the rule, the same issue we discussed last year and "you guys" corrected. As you may recall, the rule back then said "up to 15" and people whose car came with 14, for example, wanted to use 13". Y'all said "no way and the rule was re-written so they could not.

Now you're telling us that ITR has special dispensation to be able to EXACTLY what other classes wanted to do and the ITAC/CRB clearly and actively prohibited???

And we're sitting here on another thread spending PAGES trying to debate a ruleset that's transparent and consistent??

This place is a mess.

[Knestis]

I SWEAR that we went through this and NERD-tested the language, and it was fine. We got to the point where someone said, "JUST FREAKIN' WRITE WHAT WE WANT PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO DO," and we did. I thought.

There's other steps between the ITAC and the ITCS, and we've sure seen plenty of examples of the editing process inject silliness into the final text of the rules.

K

[ekim952522000]

So how does one go about getting a official answer on this?

Did you guys intend for people in ITR to be able to run any size wheel? Or just stock size or larger?

[lateapex911]

Well, that's just it....we're all sitting here reading it, and yea, I recall the intent being as Greg describes, I'm not so sure the actual wording supports that, and, as Jeff, and Kirk, and Greg point out, there's a serious amount of pencil sharpening to come up with that. Ack.

I think the ITAC is getting a item added to it's agenda....

[JeffYoung]

I'm 99% certain that ITR was not to be treated any differently than the other IT classes other than the allowance for wheels larger than 17" if they came as stock.

So basically, what this should say is ITR cars can use:

1. Their stock wheels, but nothing smaller.

2. Any wheel larger than stock but no larger than 17" (if stock is less than 17")

3. 18" wheels if fitted as stock.

Why we didn't say that (and I have a sneaking suspicion I wrote a first or early draft of this that was farked up) I just don't know. Sorry guys.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We tried to add in the ITR allowance without re-writing the whole rule. Here is what the rule MEANS and we can re-write it. This is not how it will be written, just the intent:

"Wheels Sizes
a. Any wheel size may be used within the following limitations:

ITB and ITC
Any diameter from spec line increasing to a max of 15". Maximum width is 6".

ITS and ITA
Any diameter from spec line increasing to a max of 15". Maximum width is 7".

ITR
Any diamter from spec line increasing to max of 17". Maximum width is 8.5".

The spec line determins the minimum allowable diameter wheel. If the spec line is larger than the class maximum, that size may be used OR the specified class maximum."

[spnkzss]

ITB and ITC
Any diameter from spec line increasing to a max of 15". Maximum width is 6".



Which I still don't understand why 7" can't be allowed. Might have to try and come up with some new and better letters to support this. :p

[Gary L]

Which I still don't understand why 7" can't be allowed. Might have to try and come up with some new and better letters to support this. :pHere's my letter on the subject:

Dear Mr. CRB:

Leave the rim width in ITB/C the Hell alone.

Respectfully,

[spnkzss]

Here's my letter on the subject:

Dear Mr. CRB:

Leave the rim width in ITB/C the Hell alone.

Respectfully,

Is it only because you don't want to buy new rims or is there another reason? I ask cause I don't know.

[Xian]

Is it only because you don't want to buy new rims or is there another reason? I ask cause I don't know.

I'd also vote to leave it as is. No need to make all the B/C cars swap to wider wheels when everything is working just fine as is. That'd be some serious coin for most folks and what would it really accomplish?

[spnkzss]

I'd also vote to leave it as is. No need to make all the B/C cars swap to wider wheels when everything is working just fine as is. That'd be some serious coin for most folks and what would it really accomplish?

One thing which is minor is, one of the biggest complaints about moving an A car to B was having to buy new rims.

Added availability.

I haven't seen any real reason to keep 6" besides people thinking they have to buy new rims now to stay competitive. I know, IT doesn't change "just because" and I appreciate that, but for some reason this one has always boggled my mind. :shrug:

[madrabbit15]

If we can upsize wheels, why is everyone afraid of the rule being interpreted to allow downsizing? To me that would make it much easier for competitors to configure the gearing they need. Is there really that much of an advantgage to downsize a wheel. If we can upsize, my thought is we should be able to downsize too. I am open if anyone has some logic to why we are afraid of that happening.

[spnkzss]

If we can upsize wheels, why is everyone afraid of the rule being interpreted to allow downsizing? To me that would make it much easier for competitors to configure the gearing they need. Is there really that much of an advantgage to downsize a wheel. If we can upsize, my thought is we should be able to downsize too. I am open if anyone has some logic to why we are afraid of that happening.

Unintended consequences. The Intent from my understanding was to allow the people that could only run 13 wheels to go up to 15 because 13s are becoming hard to find new. There may be lots of used 13s but wheels should be considered wear items and replaced ever so often.

[madrabbit15]

In my mind when you open that door, the door is now open, you should be able to walk through in both directions not just one. If competitiors can upsize, they should be able to downsize too, otherwise you create a rule that favors only some and not all. Unintended consequences does not seem like a good explaination to me, but I guess that is just my opinion. I was just trying to understand that reasoning.

I get the 13in wheel tire thing, but they are still available they just cost more.

[Gary L]

Is it only because you don't want to buy new rims or is there another reason? I ask cause I don't know.That's certainly part of it... and if you think finding affordable 6" wheels for your car is difficult, try finding 7's for mine! But primarily, I just think it's silly to fix something that isn't really broken. About one New York minute after 7" wheels are approved for ITB/ITC, the guys in ITA/ITS would be screaming for 8's. It's a classic case of unecessary rules creep, and we've had more than enough of that over the years.