Heater cores

[77ITA]

I don't expect any changes on this rule (because then we'd all be driving prod cars! :rolleyes: ), but has anyone sat down and actually thought about how ludacris it is to have a plumbed heater core dangling under the dash of our IT cars?

As the build on my S2000 has brought me to this subject, I feel like such a fool for being directed to keep a fully plumbed (but plugged) heater core on a racecar where I am allowed to remove the A/C system in whole. It adds additional failure points, complexity, expense, and time... all because someone thinks that having a heater core defines the class.

Who knows, maybe heater cores contain the "good for the class" magic that is polar opposite of the "bad for the class" magic contained in original equipment style remote reservoirs.

Wait... great idea! I can prop-up my laptop on the heater core while I program my stand alone engine management! :happy204:

[betamotorsports]

Write a letter.

[lateapex911]

Why don't you actually use it? They help do this wonderful thing: clear the windshield, helping you to win races. I know mine has helped me win in the rain. I wouldn't take it out for money.

As for failure points, c'mon, that's stretching...sure, theoretically, it's a failure possibility, but practically? Not really, if you're realistic. If you're really afraid of it failing, plug it.

[shwah]

I have a fully functional heater/defroster in my IT car - even though 'real' race cars don't need such things. I use it as a cooling fan for the motor when not moving, and save the weight of a cooling fan located in the worst possible place for a fwd race car.

[gran racing]

What Jake said. AND since I race in the NE primarily, I enjoy having heat on those cold days. Burrr!

When I think about it, wouldn't being directed to remove the heating add complexity, expense, and time? If I had to do it, I wouldn't even know how without doing research.

[dj10]

Why don't you actually use it? They help do this wonderful thing: clear the windshield, helping you to win races. I know mine has helped me win in the rain. I wouldn't take it out for money.

As for failure points, c'mon, that's stretching...sure, theoretically, it's a failure possibility, but practically? Not really, if you're realistic. If you're really afraid of it failing, plug it.

I just replaced my heater core. Vision is more important than saving a few lbs. of weight.:)

[mbuskuhl]

Lot's of people for the heater core. I agree with you Jeff, the things should be able to come out.

[Greg Amy]

HAH! I just watched last weekend a Koni Challenge team I work with only WISH they had a heater core, as they had to make two additional pit stops just to clean off the windshield...

Bet Jake can give you similar words to the wise...think a first-gen RX-7 can't win in ITA...?

I will never remove a working heater from a race car, unless the rules require it. - GA

[AjG]

Well if you have a “well classed” car that is competitive at it’s easy-to-obtain weight, then a heater (core)is a nice little piece of equipment, just like a cool suit. If on the other hand you drive a certified piggly wiggly that needs every ounce extracted just to even feel like you have a chance then the mandatory heater core starts to seem pretty darn annoying pretty darn fast.
If we believe in the process-weight process, let the people who want to suffer the inconvinece of heaterlessness get down to the weight that they have a ITAC-given right to get down to.

[77ITA]

Write a letter.

Thank you, but I prefer a little discussion on the topic. Besides, If I were to write a letter I would only wind up reading my last name in Fastrack followed by a "rule is adequate as written" or "not within class philosophy" :rolleyes:

As for all you pro-heater core guys, that's fine if you would like to keep it. You can keep your A/C for those hot days too. I had a heater core in my ITA Neon and never needed to use it thanks to RainX Anti-fog. The stuff works great inside your helmet too!

http://www.bsrproducts.com/images/SAF.AF.870.jpg

Getting back to the point of all this, I'm hoping to hear a good argument for why a heater core is required when you can remove the rest of the A/C system.

[dickita15]

My current car has a working heater defroster, my previous one had it plugged. The ability to plug or bypass the heater core blunts any safety failure point arguments.
My answer to the weight and complexity argument is: then why not replace the dashboard, replace windows with Lexan and allow carbon fiber body panels.

[Ed Funk]

My current car has a working heater defroster, my previous one had it plugged. The ability to plug or bypass the heater core blunts any safety failure point arguments.
My answer to the weight and complexity argument is: then why not replace the dashboard, replace windows with Lexan and allow carbon fiber body panels.

:happy204:Cool!!:eclipsee_steering:

[Ron Earp]

Getting back to the point of all this, I'm hoping to hear a good argument for why a heater core is required when you can remove the rest of the A/C system.

Me too. The rules state:

"Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part."

"Engine coolant fluid, coolant/heater hoses and clamps may be substituted. Heater hoses may be plugged. Heater water control valve(s) may be added or substituted. Heater core and hoses shall not be removed."

In the same vein as a few posts on this thread; you are forced to keep a system that can provide warmth on a cold day but you can remove completely a system that can keep you cool on a hot day. Was the rule written by those above the Mason Dixon line, you know, the area where it is sometimes chilly?

Or were the rules born from the fact that not all cars had AC "back in the day" but all of them did have heating systems. Therefore the rule leveled the playing field somewhat?

[Knestis]

>> I will never remove a working heater from a race car, unless the rules require it. - GA

Ditto.

This discussion reminds me of fights I used to have with the ex-girlfriend: It's always the same, it has predictable outcomes, and could be scripted around [insertyourfavoritethingtoremovehere], too.

It does NOT however have make-up sex, so why go through it again? :026:

If you don't get the overarching rationale behind not allowing more and more pieces to be removed from IT cars, then you've probably just got a philosophical difference of opinion about "what a race car is supposed to be." Actually, someone who HAS that philosophy is probably predisposed to ask for those allowances, so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You are allowed to have those differences of opinion but I'm pretty confident that the current ITAC understands that it's their role to preserve what's good about the category and - regardless of individual priorities - heater cores, stock bodywork, glass windows, marker lights, stock engine mounts, and even washer bottles are part of that.

http://rr-ax.com/bbs/images/emoticons/wb.gif

I'm doing a little experiment, as my Freshman ITAC member research project. I call it "Bizzaro World ITCS." I took the 2008 version of our rules, and am amending them to include all of the changes that the ITAC is asked to consider. I started too late to include the most recent requests for plastic windows and "alternate material body parts" but it's already well on its way to being pretty different than the IT rules we use on this planet. I'll share it here at the end of the year, to give you all some sense of where we might be if every IT racer's individual "I wanna" got approved.

K

EDIT - my current favorite is the allowance to remove "washer bottles and all the other stuff in the engine compartment that is not needed to race." No potential for unintended consequences there! :)

[Knestis]

...
Or were the rules born from the fact that not all cars had AC "back in the day" but all of them did have heating systems. Therefore the rule leveled the playing field somewhat?

The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

[Ron Earp]

I'm doing a little experiment, as my Freshman ITAC member research project. I call it "Bizzaro World ITCS." I took the 2008 version of our rules, and am amending them to include all of the changes that the ITAC is asked to consider. I started too late to include the most recent requests for plastic windows and "alternate material body parts" but it's already well on its way to being pretty different than the IT rules we use on this planet. I'll share it here at the end of the year, to give you all some sense of where we might be if every IT racer's individual "I wanna" got approved.


This is gonna be good, I can't wait for the outcome!! :)

[tom_sprecher]

Pass.

[JeffYoung]

Could be a safety issue as well -- on why we allow the removal of a/c but not the heater core. A/C runs on a pressurized system of a not so friendly gas. Not sure we want that in a car when there is a wreck.

A heater core, not so dangerous.


The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

[lateapex911]

Regarding weight.

Seriously??

A heater core weighs what, 2 lbs? and the lines, what, another 2? And there are complaints about 4 pounds, located in the MIDDLE of the car!?!?!?. Remember, if you are weight crazy, you can drain the lines and the core. Pulleeeeeze. Are you REALLY that good as a driver that 4 pounds spells disaster?

If so, then, I bet this, when we meet, I'll find more than 4 extra pounds on your body. (4 out of 5 times.... unless we're talking pros, who's job depends on their leanness and conditioning)

(I'm 6'3", weigh 198, and am about 5 pounds over. I do long distance swim competitions, as well as some running and biking, and I could be in a LOT better shape. I'll bet half the IT racers don't consider their body as part of the car....)

Sorry, but exercise benefits the car, and you, in many more ways than removing the easy to use, can't forget to apply it vision enhancing heater core. If youre in shape, you don't NEED a cool suit. I see guys with them for 20 minute races, and honestly, I laugh. Really! Yeah, it's nice on grid, but for 20 minutes?? (Shakes head). I've done a 3 hour enduro in 93 degree heat without one, it's not that hard.

(And why is it that MANY Pro teams can't seem to keep a windshield clear...I assume their staffing and budget have considered RainX etc.)

All cars come with heaters, many come with AC, but not all. Leave the Heater, it makes life better, doing nothing is easier and simpler.

[DavidM]

Somebody edumacate me. When you use the heater core for "defrost" are you just using the fan or actually heating the air via the core? Seems like blowing hot, moist air on the window wouldn't do a whole lot of good. Here in the south you gotta run the air through the dryer to dry out the air in order for the defrost to have any affect.

David

[lateapex911]

My use has been in heavy rain, and I circulate coolant thru the core, on full heat. A weather guy can explain the science, but my windshield was clear in the areas that the defroster blew, and foggy at the perimeters in this race:

[77ITA]

The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

This is, by far, the best argument I have heard on the topic and I see where you're coming from, but it still doesn't add up.

I mean, I really don't care either way... I certainly don't have anything to gain by removing a heater core (other than simplicity) , I just don't understand why there is specific mention that it must be kept while the rest of the A/C system may be removed in whole.

It's like someone specifically thought that if you're car doesn't have a heater core in it, it belongs to a higher level of preparation (I heard that defense when I was building my last car) and that is the precise backwards thinking that we need to remove from IT.

[JeffYoung]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....

[77ITA]

yeah, I don't even like to go outside when it's raining that hard :D

[gran racing]

I certainly don't have anything to gain by removing a heater core (other than simplicity)

I really don't follow the simplicity argument. The simpliest thing is just to leave it stock.

For A/C, maybe part of the reasoning for allowing it to be removed is that some cars on the same spec line came with A/C just as an option. All came with heaters.

[lateapex911]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....
That's the one...was gridded 8th of about 22. when the skys opened on grid, they said, "% minutes to get back here if you want to change tires". Acck. I git back in 4.5 minutes, thanks to the help of the entire Blethen crew, and A Shepard or two, I think.

The Integra and CRX boys either ran in their trailers wide eyed, or slipped off.
I was able to get around 4 guys in the banking (first turn) then made a pass for the lead on lap 2 or 3. Oddly, the lap chart shows that on some laps I was 8 seconds faster than the next fastest car. Not oddly, each lap had two "Oh s8it! I just threw this thing away, what an idiot!" moments, where the car was sliding with little helm, but each time I got it back. After a few, I learned to expect it, and adjusted my line to slide where I wanted to be on the other side. Of course, visibility to the rear was less than perfect, but by halfway I figured out that I had a pretty decent lead, and slowed down.

Of course, I am a swimmer, and dirt stockers rule! But I got lucky and managed to herd it the distance. Windshield was 80% clear, but there was 2" of water on the floor sloshing about. If there were any field mice hiding in the car, they could have broken out there little surfboards and hung 10. (or however many they have)

[shwah]

David - I use heated air. My car never had AC, and warm air has more capacity to absorb water than cool air. Of course drying the air by cooling it down and precipitating out the water first will work even better, but all else equal, warm air blowing on a foggy windshield is better than ambient or no air blowing on it.

To the topic in general - my impression of this thread is that some folks think that 'real race cars' just don't have heater cores. My counter argument - 'real IT cars have working heaters' :p

[77ITA]

I really don't follow the simplicity argument. The simpliest thing is just to leave it stock

When building a car from a bare chassis up, that doesn't really apply... but I digress; laziness is not what I am talking about here.

Some cars, are not as simple as two radiator hoses and two heater hoses. For example, here is a diagram of the coolant hose routing on the S2000. There is quite a bit of excess junk there that is associated directly with the heater core. It would obviously be more simple to not have that, but again.. my goal here isn't a rule change, rather to understand why the rule directs me that I need to keep all that junk.

[lateapex911]

LOL, Chris, my counter is, "Why would you want to do something to add more work, and help you lose a winnable race? " I guess if you're winning all the time, who cares, don't race in the rain. But that's too NASCAR for me. ;)

Oh, one other idea as to the reason, when IT was first conceived, it was a "dual purpose" class. Cars needed to maintain certain things, that made them street capable. My first car in the mid 90s got driven all over New England to races on race tires, and race springs and shocks, packed to the gills with a tent and tools and spares.

[JLawton]

For those that would like to remove the heater core, there's always something called........... Production!! Now those are real race cars!! :rolleyes:

[JeffYoung]

Now that is racing in the rain. Good work Jake.


That's the one...was gridded 8th of about 22. when the skys opened on grid, they said, "% minutes to get back here if you want to change tires". Acck. I git back in 4.5 minutes, thanks to the help of the entire Blethen crew, and A Shepard or two, I think.

The Integra and CRX boys either ran in their trailers wide eyed, or slipped off.
I was able to get around 4 guys in the banking (first turn) then made a pass for the lead on lap 2 or 3. Oddly, the lap chart shows that on some laps I was 8 seconds faster than the next fastest car. Not oddly, each lap had two "Oh s8it! I just threw this thing away, what an idiot!" moments, where the car was sliding with little helm, but each time I got it back. After a few, I learned to expect it, and adjusted my line to slide where I wanted to be on the other side. Of course, visibility to the rear was less than perfect, but by halfway I figured out that I had a pretty decent lead, and slowed down.

Of course, I am a swimmer, and dirt stockers rule! But I got lucky and managed to herd it the distance. Windshield was 80% clear, but there was 2" of water on the floor sloshing about. If there were any field mice hiding in the car, they could have broken out there little surfboards and hung 10. (or however many they have)

[kthomas]

We learned to never race the Z in the rain. A) you get wet, B ) backmarkers hit you while you're lapping them, C) even with a working heater core the windshield fogs up, D) its hard to shift with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding the stick with the rag on the end of it to wipe the aforementioned fogged windshield, and most important: E) Z's don't need any more encouragement to rust. :)

Back in the day, when the rules were still very "regional", we tried the ole "the heater conditions the air, therefore the heater core is part of the air conditioning system" argument. The Z factory service manual even referred to the heater stuff as "conditioning the air". Won the race on the track, lost it in the tech shed. Oh well, wasn't the first time....:shrug:

[betamotorsports]

E) subset - The water splashing up into your crotch from the rust holes in the floor board makes you have to pee all the time.

[GBugg]

Regarding weight.


(I'm 6'3", weigh 198, and am about 5 pounds over. ....)



Wow. Based on your avitar, I wouldn't have guessed you were that big. You obviously carry your weight high. :blink:

:026::026::026:

[lateapex911]

Good point, LOl. I tossed that avatar up as a test (and a joke, kinda) when the board switched to new software and some people were having difficulty with their avatars...

I suppose I should get serious and put something proper in, but it's been pretty popular....

[JeffYoung]

I see no need for you to change your Avatar......


Good point, LOl. I tossed that avatar up as a test (and a joke, kinda) when the board switched to new software and some people were having difficulty with their avatars...

I suppose I should get serious and put something proper in, but it's been pretty popular....

[Knestis]

... I just don't understand why there is specific mention that it must be kept while the rest of the A/C system may be removed in whole.

It's like someone specifically thought that if you're car doesn't have a heater core in it, it belongs to a higher level of preparation (I heard that defense when I was building my last car) and that is the precise backwards thinking that we need to remove from IT.

Quit complaining and do something about it: Submit your request that the allowance to remove AC be rescinded and the ITAC will give it their full consideration.

K

[Knestis]

:026:

Hah!

In all seriousness, there's no argument for keeping the heater core that hasn't already been made, here and elsewhere. But it's not about that. It's about the fact that everyone can make exactly the same potentially compelling argument about 1000 other modifications from stock that are not currently allowed by the IT rule set.

Are you willing to strike a bargain? That you'll support every other proposal made with the same rationale - simplicity, safety, cost savings, and "no increase in performance" - if we give you yours?

K

[77ITA]

as I've stated multiple times, I'm not here seeking a rule change. This would obviously be the wrong place for that and I would probably be less of an a**hole about it. :p

I'm just sharing my point of view and questions while creating conversation and debate on the subject. Isn't that what a forum like this is for?

[planet6racing]

When building a car from a bare chassis up, that doesn't really apply... but I digress; laziness is not what I am talking about here.

Some cars, are not as simple as two radiator hoses and two heater hoses. For example, here is a diagram of the coolant hose routing on the S2000. There is quite a bit of excess junk there that is associated directly with the heater core. It would obviously be more simple to not have that, but again.. my goal here isn't a rule change, rather to understand why the rule directs me that I need to keep all that junk.

Why has every argument lately had the S2000 in it? We need XXX because of the S2000... etc. etc.

It's been long established that some cars do not make good IT cars or racecars in general. That's just the way it is. I didn't do my full homework up front and I race a Saturn. However, I'm not asking for any special allowances. I'm just glad I have the OPPORTUNITY to develop creative solutions...

[gran racing]

I don't take this as a specific question related to the S2K; it just so happens it is coming from someone whose building one.


For example, here is a diagram of the coolant hose routing on the S2000.

When I saw that diagram, I chuckled thinking how easy the engine bay of that Honda is compared to my ole Prelude was.

[lateapex911]

Dave, that's a good point, it's all about what we're used to. I race/wrench an RX-7, with that huge motor. (LOL). I got a Porsche 944S2 for ITR, took a look a the engine compartment and started feeling queasy!

Oh, and OK, Jeff, the avatar stays. (See? everytime I mention I should change it, I get objections!)

[Eagle7]

I tossed that avatar up as a test (and a joke, kinda) ....
So that's not you???? :o

[lateapex911]

So that's not you???? :o

If that was me, you guys would be offering me free tires and crew help and tickets to everywhere!

[Greg Amy]

If that was me, you guys would be offering me free tires and crew help and tickets to everywhere!
Hey, Jake, you know that email I sent to you about this weekend? Hah, hah, that was just a joke, hah, hah, just kidding...hah, hah...

[CCDangie71]

Jake,
If your avatar pic WAS you then I would strongly recommend you keep the heater in your car in fine working order. At a glance it appears you were a tad chilly when the picture was taken. :D

[gran racing]

I was thinking the exact opposite.

[lateapex911]

I knew that was coming!

For the pervs (that's nearly all of us) that need a larger view, click on it and go to my gallery. four others there too, for your viewing pleasure....

[wcmcarlos]

David,
I dont have the answer to that question, but at this year's double DS at RR, it was raining cats & toads for the first run session.
I turned on the defroster, put fan on high, and it worked.
Worked in paddock, grid, and warm up lap.
No A/C, no heater, windows wide open, blower cleared the windshield.:shrug: and double:shrug:

Carlos

[DavidM]

I think if you can get enough air movement then the windshield won't fog. I know several people that just have fans that blow across the windshield. I was wondering if actually using the heater core to heat up the air was any good. The A/C in my daily driver is out and it's pretty much useless to run the defrost fan without being able to kick-on the A/C to dry out the air so I was thinking using the heater core wouldn't help too much.

David

[GKR_17]

Warm air holds more water, so using the heater does help. Plus, if the windshield is warmer, less vapor will condense there in the first place. Cooling it before heating will pull some of the moisture out so it would work even better. As should be clear from this topic, cars had defrosters long before they had AC.

[nsuracer]

I have only been racing I.T. for 2 years but I ran circle track in Mini Stocks for about 15 years. Here is my take on all this. It really doesn't matter weather the heater is an asset or not. If you are racing a fairly new car that has everything in it, you are probably not faced with maintenance problems on the accessory items in the car. If however, you are racing a 25+ year old (fill in the blank), you are then forced to maintain nonessential systems that have absolutely nothing to do with performance. For example, Westmoreland Rabbits have plastic dashboards that break up, fuse boxes that go south, and wiring harnesses that are junk. I'd like to rip it all out and start over with only essential systems (including the heater).

For all those who say, go to production, I say that you are missing the point. Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted.

In my opinion, the modification rules have already gone to far. It is possible to spend a double butt load of money on legal suspension mods. Bottom line is, I would be against any rule change that would be performance inhancing but I sure would like to simplify the cars some.

[dickita15]

Well said.

[Knestis]

...Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted. ...

What's the claim rule like at your circle track? Here's what we've got at our local venue (for the similar UCAR class):

3. This is a claimer class. there will be a $900.00 claim on any car that finishes in the top three positions.

4. You must finish in the top six to place a claim. You must place your claim before the top three finishers are done with tech. Your claim must be placed with the pit Stewart in cash and in writing. The track will also reserve the right to claim any car or part anytime - racing seats and personal gear will not be part of any claim.

5. Refusing a claim will result in that car being banned from Ona Speedway and the driver being banned for the remainder of the season.

That pretty much defines the level of preparation at the front.

I'll keep asking the question as long as people keep making their cases based on their belief that THEIR favorite changed doesn't "enhance performance" - Would you be willing to accept as the new reality, the ITAC accepting every proposed rule change that applied that rationale? If not, what's your bright line for deciding what is and what isn't allowed?

K

[dickita15]

Kirk,
I honor you and agree with your commitment to preventing us from heading for that slippery slope. I may have been a little fast with my agreement with the above. What struck me about nsuracer is the difference between someone prepping a 5 year old IT car and a 25 year old It car.
For the newer car keeping it simple is having to make the least number of modifications to make a competitive race car. For the older cars it is about not having to waste considerable time and finances to maintain and replace parts and systems that really do not contribute to the car being raced.
In order to evaluate a rule change request one need to appreciate both perspectives and the unintended consequences to both groups.

[Knestis]

...and I don't for one minute disagree that what you describe is a huge burden to someone building an old car. However, while I'm sympathetic, there's no practical way to address that problem without creating other problems.

I'm reminded that one of the best things about IT - that it's an actively multi-marque category where owners of different cars of different vintages can race one-another - is also the root of its biggest challenges. Remember that we also hear from owners of newly-eligible cars that they have problems that THEY would like to have the rules "fix" for them. Too many electronics, too much stuff, etc.

Since it's also a first principle that the IT rules apply to all eligible cars across the board, without make/model-specific allowances, this is a situation that we live with for the greater health of the category.

K

[JeffYoung]

It is, actually, something of a rough trade off that I have to deal with a ratty 30 year old wiring harness, and on the flip side the guy with the newer car has to figure out how to make his car run without ABS sensors........

[dickita15]

Yes Jeff that is one of the facts of life of rule making, if all sides are complaining in you may just have found balance.
I am just happy that nsuracer reminded us all of the frustration on the old car side.
By the way what class is an NSU in anyway?

[tom_sprecher]

Yes Jeff that is one of the facts of life of rule making, if all sides are complaining in you may just have found balance.

With all due respect to current and past members of the ITAC another possibility could be you haven't really thought it through enough to provide a set of rules that everyone can agree with. ;) It all depends on your point of view and the view of who's in charge, doesn't it?

To head off the stability crowd I agree that the stability of the IT rule set is appealing to some but the bottom line is the vast majority of guys pick IT because of the perception, real or imagined, that it is a "cheap" way to race in the SCCA. When the rules prevent that from becoming reality those same guys start complaining, or breaking the rules.

Compare the rule stability of say, formula, to that of IT. Except for the recent allowance of a cheap, alternate replacement of the expensive, hard to find, 35 year old engine they have been using, FC has had but a few minor rule changes in the past 15 years. How many rule changes has there been in IT over the past 15 years?

When I was involved in that category I don't recall anyone complaining about the rules. What's up with that? Did they get it wrong or have we? Why do they enjoy hassle free racing with respect to their rules while the number of posts on this site is testament that our rule set is extremely controversial and there are more than a few disgruntled customers here?

And please, this has all been only food for thought. I do not mean to seem critical of those who have gotten us here. If ITAC members only serve for two to four years and then are replaced then I have no problems with the process. Actually, how does that work exactly?

[lateapex911]

Tom, unfortunately, that's a bit apples to oranges. FC cars are built from the inception as racing cars. Our cars are built with NO thought from the manufacturer about racing, they are designed and created to sell in a competitive new car marketplace, and the technologies they embody are constantly evolving. I suggest that, if time stood still, and cars that entered the ITCS were frozen technology-wise, that our rules would be more stable.

I also think that while you suggest that most enter IT because it is cheap, that in fact, most enter IT for a more complex set of reasons. I bet that many decide that the Formula and Sports racing categories need to be eliminated for family reasons (logical or not, wives who perceive certain disaster can put a real damper on the racing hobby), and our category attracts those people who wish to race sedans/coupe style cars utilizing the original chassis, because they are turned off by the amount of work and engineering expertise that is required of Prod and GT racers.

You say "Cheap", which to most means "less cash", but IT is popular, in my mind, because it is lower cost. And lower cost is, to me, less engineering: no billet cranks to design and produce. Less material science:: no carbon fenders and hoods to mold and produce. Less finite element analysis: No space frames to design, loft and weld. And so on. "Lower cost" encompasses much more than pure cash.

And, in actuality, if winning trophies on the cheap were the reason for most who race IT, their dollars would be better spend buying old Prod cars, like a friend of mine did, then going out and grabbing trophies at the Regionals. He spends FAR less than even me, and scores WAY more trophies. But he races against far fewer.

What I'm saying is that IT attracts people for a far more complex set of variables that cash alone, and I think the ruleset and the leadership have a lot to do with it.

Regarding the ITAC, resumes are submitted by members wishing to serve, and as openings occur, they are filled from the pool of candidates. The goal is to have an ITAC with individuals that are diverse in the category (members representing most, or all of the classes) are from diverse geographical areas, and who have resumes displaying aptitudes appropriate for the job.

[lateapex911]

It's ironic that yesterday I discovered that my grand explosion caused by my pressure plate going postal at 7500 rpm also damaged my heater core!

But, I will repair and retain it, and I'm even scheming to improve water flow to it. Might as well make everything better if I'm going to do all the work to rebuild everything in that 6" CAT scan of the car anyway!

[tom_sprecher]

It doesn't have to be apples and oranges. I always assumed they call it formula because you have a drawing or "formula" that gives dimensions that can not be exceeded. Wheelbase, track, OA length, wing height and width, etc. Also the engine is basically the same as an IT engine as far as what you can modify. IT could be the same if you had fewer rules because "if it doesn't say you can, you can't" really amounts to volumes of rules.

It's unfortunate that purpose built race cars are perceived to be more difficult or expensive to maintain and race. Different situations apply of course, but as a for instance, Butch races GTA and pays less for his Goodyear racing slicks than I pay for those crappy Toyos. Also, steel tubing and fiberglass is much cheaper that re-shelling or sectioning the damage on a production based car at least for me because I don't own a body shop.

Your pressure plate explosion is freaking me out. Please stop talking about it or I'll have to install a scatter shield and add even more to the 60# I'm already over weight.

[nsuracer]

Wow, hasn't this thread taken on a life of it's own. To answer questions of my last post. 1. I-25 Speedway does not have a claim rule for the Hornet class. If anyone is interested in their rules they are on their web site. 2. When I had them NSUs ran in C Sedan and GT5. I am sure that everyone has a "Cars I wish I still had" list. The NSU would be at the top of my list.

Anyway back to the issue at hand. Is it my imagination, or are all the new cars being classified in I.T. going into ITA and above? In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.

[Z3_GoCar]

Oh.. you mean Cee-dan :D

I saw a buntch of those this weekend helping my friend with his Formula Continental. So, I wonder about that rule that basically says, AC can be removed in it's entirety. If the AC coil is integrated with the heater coil such that it's the same part, can you then remove the heater coil?? Do you have to perform coil surgury, or just leave it all in there?

James

[JoshS]

So, I wonder about that rule that basically says, AC can be removed in it's entirety. If the AC coil is integrated with the heater coil such that it's the same part, can you then remove the heater coil?? Do you have to perform coil surgury, or just leave it all in there?

I say you have to leave it there, but I'm a conservative rules reader.

But what cars are like that? I've never seen a car where the A/C evaporator and the heater core were the same part.

[Ron Earp]

In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.

Where is ITS or ITR? I know a bit off topic, but the forum needs a bit of life.

[nsuracer]

Where is ITS or ITR? I know a bit off topic, but the forum needs a bit of life.

ITS is healthy and ITR is a growth class.

[Z3_GoCar]

I say you have to leave it there, but I'm a conservative rules reader.

But what cars are like that? I've never seen a car where the A/C evaporator and the heater core were the same part.

I didn't have a particular car in mind with that, it just seemed like a potential conflict. One where a case, maybe resonable people might disagree about, where the heater core could be chucked. I'll confess that's one thing I need, amoung many items, to truely be legel. But I might show up anyway just to keep the license current.

James

[Knestis]

Wow, hasn't this thread taken on a life of it's own. To answer questions of my last post. 1. I-25 Speedway does not have a claim rule for the Hornet class. If anyone is interested in their rules they are on their web site. 2. When I had them NSUs ran in C Sedan and GT5. I am sure that everyone has a "Cars I wish I still had" list. The NSU would be at the top of my list.

Anyway back to the issue at hand. Is it my imagination, or are all the new cars being classified in I.T. going into ITA and above? In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.

So absent the claim rule, how effectively are the "you gotta be stock" rules actually applied? Is it one of those "Well, these springs were stock on SOMETHING, right?" kind of deals.?

We've had ongoing conversations and even mini-initiatives to try to list more cars in B and C but there's little consensus re: why the classes are shrinking. At some level, it's got to be because in general, performance levels of new cars are simply getting higher. Today's crapbox sedans outperform sports cars and "hot hatches" of the '80s.

K

[AE86ITA]

I am sorry but, could someone explain to me what is a heater core? I am from PR

[JoshS]

I am sorry but, could someone explain to me what is a heater core? I am from PR

In PR you probably don't use it much!

It's the small radiator that's under the dash. Hot coolant flows through it, and air blows over it to provide heat to the passenger compartment.

[AE86ITA]

Why would someone want hot air into their cars, Isn't hot enough without it?

(Thanks Josh)

[Z3_GoCar]

Why would someone want hot air into their cars, Isn't hot enough without it?

(Thanks Josh)
:lol:

Sounds like someone needs to take a trip to Fargo in December, eh? Jeez-Louise it's cold, too cold to snow even. I've spent a couple of winter months in Bismark, so I know this first hand....

James

[AE86ITA]

:lol:

Sounds like someone needs to take a trip to Fargo in December, eh? Jeez-Louise it's cold, too cold to snow even. I've spent a couple of winter months in Bismark, so I know this first hand....

James

Thanks James:
But been there done that, I was trying to make a point. We are now SCCA in PR and what sence would it make here south Florida, Texas or southern California to have a heater core in our cars?

Ok I grant you it is an item that could make an impact on comfort and on a rainy day but aside from that once it is full of coolant it could weight a few unwanted pounds.

Don't try to bring that point whenever you guys come down to race as everyone will laugh on your face.

[JeffYoung]

We understand the southern perspective here in NC. Racing in June/July/August can be brutal.

The real issue here is that our rules are based on limited modifications to the cars to make them raceable. Over the last 20 years, we have made -- in rare cases -- exceptions to the original rule set to allow additional modifications where those changes were necessary to deal with advancing technology, etc.

There is just no real reason to depart from the "keep it stock" aspect of IT racing with the heater core. Less weight/don't want coolant in the cabin, etc., not enough in my view. Not even close.

If you don't want to use the heater core, fine, just plug the lines. But no compelling reason to remove it and once we do then we get a 1000 requests to remove other parts because "they aren't necessary."

[Spinnetti]

The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

True, but what really irritates me is the addition of all kinds of stuff that make it more of a real race car, while ignoring all the cheap/free stuff that would also make the cars more fun. Cases in point, you have to keep your heater core and washer bottle, but you can run coil-overs and a custom ecu. Class philosophy my a$$. Seems to me, the club leadership can't make up their mind what they want, so we have the ever changing mishmash that pleases very few. To me its simple: Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.

[lateapex911]

True, but what really irritates me is the addition of all kinds of stuff that make it more of a real race car, while ignoring all the cheap/free stuff that would also make the cars more fun. Cases in point, you have to keep your heater core and washer bottle, but you can run coil-overs and a custom ecu. Class philosophy my a$$. Seems to me, the club leadership can't make up their mind what they want, so we have the ever changing mishmash that pleases very few. To me its simple: Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.

Initial caveat and background info going in. I'm one of the club leaders (ITAC member) that can't make up his mind and has created the mishmash that pleases few.....(oh, and so is Kirk)

Where to start....

First, Kirk hit many of my points below...but.........

The term "real race car" is always determined by one's own outlook. And usually, a car just below yours in stature (whatever that is) isn't a "real race car"....the term always makes me laugh. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm RACING my car, and I want to beat everyone in my class. If you want to tell me it's not a "real race car", well, I'll be polite with my response, but lets just say I think that the term is just mental masturbation. ;)

"Pleases very few", you say? Interesting, but if the IT category numbers were compared to any other category in the club, I bet it would be near, or at the top...IT is pretty darn popular. Polls have shown that the ruleset (not too much, not too little) and class stability are the main reasons subscribers have chosen the category. Chronic malcontents can always find stuff to whine about, but that's true anywhere.

I really fail to see how removing a heater core, (weighing all of two pounds, centrally located) will make the car "more fun" .. Come on, you're just checking to see if we're reading aren't you?

See Kirks point below for the real scoop on how ALLOWING things is actually CHEAPER, but let me add some history and a couple of points.

1- When IT first came to light, Fuel injected cars were very very rare. The rules allowed all cars to adjust ignition, (duh, right? LOL) timing and dwell, as well as carb jetting. Cars were classified based on the expected gains from such tuning. Now, along come FI cars. But, how do those guys get the same allowances the carb guys get? In the beginning, they didn't. Of course, they had to do something....custom or upgraded chips, as other standard racing modifications could cause the engines to run improperly. Here's the key phrase for you: Technology advancements drive rule changes more than any other factor. The club had no choice but to allow ECU chip changes. Well, that sounds good and all, but not all "chips" were just "chips". Some designs needed piggyback boards and so on. So, the club adapted again, and allowed anything that fit in the stock box. Nice try, but, that was, to be blunt, one of the worst rules IT has seen. Of course, some boxes were large enough to allow full blown standalone ECUs, and there were some racers well heeled enough that MoTeCs started being installed.
Bottom line was that it was a lopsided rule. Some cars couldn't fit anything, (you're screwed) some could fit everything, (whoo hoo!) and some could only fit the ultra expensive. (Oh well, I'm broke, but it could be worse).

1A- Class philosophy lesson: Contrary to your opinion... class philosophy DOES exist, (and it has nothing to do with your backside) and when technology changes, so must the category, or it will cease to be relevant. But, it must change in such a way to treat all cars as equally as possible. Open ECUs do just that. No longer is anyone bound by the artificial limits of their box capacity or their wallet. Allowing more options makes it cheaper, and fairer for all.

2- Coilovers, camber plates and the like actually make racing cheaper. Ask the Touring guys what they spend on dampers, because they are bound to stock springs by the rules. They spend THOUSANDS to get dampers that add spring rate.........when they could have used a $50 coil spring. Camber plates? Spend a few bucks on camber plates, and save yourself thousands on tires with corded shoulders and full depth inside tread. And so on. And on. (See Kirks post below)



Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.

Come on now, do you REALLY think that removing a 2 pound heater core and a 1 pound washer bottle are going to make your car last longer? Do the math for me ok? Really, I want to see how that works. Just like three pounds is going to change the "fun to drive" factor. Show me that math too, while you're at it. And I guess you're living on fixed income, because I have to tell you that removing my heater core is going to cost me money...either I pay someone to do it, or I lose time ($, family time, or time that could be spent improving some other aspect of my life) and do it myself. (Of course, I think it would be idiotic to do it in and of itself, so i won't lose a minute or a dime over it...)

Leave well enough alone you say?
Done.
Heater cores and washer bottles stay.

[tdw6974]

Heck today no heater core needed. The Nice Ice vest I have for sale would be good!! :D

[Knestis]

>> ... adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods. ...

To appropriate your term, "leadership my a$$."

"Leadership" does the easy thing, 9 out of 10 times - that being what will get them the least grief from membership. You've got nobody to blame but your fellow IT racers for everything you're complaining about.

All three of the allowances you list have similar histories: What was thought to be a simple modification was pushed to the limit by a few early adopters, gained popularity, became the accepted norm absent any early questions of compliance, and was subsequently codified because it was too painful to go backward on them - particularly when the new technologies became more affordable than the ones they replaced.

If you think coilovers are more expensive than having custom springs wound for stock-style struts, think again. If you think Megasquirt is more expensive than the shoehorn (whatevertheheck) into the stock box - wrong. If you for one minute believe that deep-pockets racers wouldn't have multiple sets of non-adjustable shocks rather than pimpy double-adjustable Konis, you need to come to a SE or NE IT race where people are pushing the envelope.

And would you have taken away the precursor technologies or just the current ones? Do you want anyone with FI to run stock parts and settings only? Are resistors OK to change input values? What about chip changes? Where do you draw the line?

At the end of the day, are you REALLY advocating for not having those allowances or are you using them as rationale for more? Just because some of the horses have gotten out of the barn, doesn't mean we shouldn't close the doors because those "easy, cheap" things are just the first step to the next round of things you'll be unhappy with.

K

[Tak]

If I recall correctly, a lot of cars that were eligible in the early days of IT had air conditioning as a dealer installed option. Makes sense to allow it's removal, since policing what is dealer vs factory installed would be, um, difficult. Remember that only factory installed items are technically legal. That's why dealer installed wings or bigger rims are not allowed.
As an avid motorcyclist who uses fog-x regularly in my helmet, I can testify that fog-x saturates and fogs up when it is really wet!
My 'defroster' (no ac...) with a plugged heater core clears my windshield just fine.
I would never run without a defrost fan. As for the heater core, I can go either way... Removing it is a lot of work for 2 lbs.

Tak
29 ITA SFR SCCA

[GKR_17]

Come on now, do you REALLY think that removing a 2 pound heater core and a 1 pound washer bottle are going to make your car last longer? Do the math for me ok?

A well prepped car is going to weigh the same with or without those items. The weight would just move to the floor. There have been many times I was glad (or wished) I had a functional defroster. And even one where I wished the washer system was operational.

[lateapex911]

A well prepped car is going to weigh the same with or without those items. The weight would just move to the floor. There have been many times I was glad (or wished) I had a functional defroster. And even one where I wished the washer system was operational.

Grafton, i hear you! I suspect the complaint is that certain cars are hard to get to min weight, and we should make more allowances.....

But...my point is, 3 pounds? THAT's going to make the car last longer/win more/be better to drive?

If we're going to change the rules because our level of granularity has gotten down to 3 pounds, well that's another thing, but this is IT, not F1, and we can't class/prep/drive our stock based cars to that level.

[Z3_GoCar]

Thanks James:
But been there done that, I was trying to make a point. We are now SCCA in PR and what sence would it make here south Florida, Texas or southern California to have a heater core in our cars?

Ok I grant you it is an item that could make an impact on comfort and on a rainy day but aside from that once it is full of coolant it could weight a few unwanted pounds.

Don't try to bring that point whenever you guys come down to race as everyone will laugh on your face.

We'll fact is no one says it's got to be functional. Drained of water those things can't weigh much. Same with the washer bottle, empty it's probably not even 12oz. If you laugh in my face, I hope I'm wearing clown makeup:D There's a reason my wife has clown music on her phone for her ringer, "March of the Gladiators" anyone??

James

[court76wi]

I'm doing a little experiment, as my Freshman ITAC member research project. I call it "Bizzaro World ITCS." I took the 2008 version of our rules, and am amending them to include all of the changes that the ITAC is asked to consider.

While you're writing that, could you also add "allow upper adjustable arms for the purpose of camber adjustment". I love how you're allowed to cut, blast, weld, and drill the chassis (including installing "pillowball" mounts) to adjust camber, but you can't install upper adjustable arms. Eh?? That's not too Bizzaro of a rule adjustment/request.

[itb76]

...this is IT, not F1, and we can't class/prep/drive our stock based cars to that level.

Jake, you have the nicest avatar.

I appreciate having defrost and heat in my race car. Not often, but it's great when you need it. There's no way I'm going to notice 3 lbs of weight in my car. Run prod or GT car if you're that sensitive about weight.

[Knestis]

While you're writing that, could you also add "allow upper adjustable arms for the purpose of camber adjustment". I love how you're allowed to cut, blast, weld, and drill the chassis (including installing "pillowball" mounts) to adjust camber, but you can't install upper adjustable arms. Eh?? That's not too Bizzaro of a rule adjustment/request.

So, you actually believe that opening up the IT rules to allow people to replace control arms is a good idea? I have a suspicion that you're picturing buying affordable off-the-shelf replacement pieces (a la Honda aftermarket) but you do understand that the same rule would give everyone the opportunity to do any darned thing they want, right?

K

[tom_sprecher]

I have a suspicion that you're picturing buying affordable off-the-shelf replacement pieces (a la Honda aftermarket) but you do understand that the same rule would give everyone the opportunity to do basically the same thing, right?

K

Fixed that for ya and it seems like a wash, but hey, that's just my honest observasion. ;)

[Knestis]

So you're OK with me building uber-light suspension arms to whatever dimensions I want...?

Here we go...!

K

[joeracerx95]

I keep seeing references to 3-5lbs not being important. I disagree. A couple years ago the 1st gen RX7 was given a 100lb weight reduction. That's great. Except as far as I know, no one can get that much weight out of the car to make minimum so the rule makers didn't REALLY give the car a 100lb break.

I weight 185lbs which isn't a huge number. I've taken everything legal out of the car and I'm still 50lbs above minimum. 50 lbs DOES matter. And if I had 5lbs here and 5lbs there and another 5lbs over there that I could take out I could eventually get my weight down to minimum. So in that context 5lbs does matter. Just like 2HP matters. If I gain 2hp from a timing adjustment and another 2hp by using slicker gear oil and another 2hp etc. etc. pretty soon I have 10HP more than you do. Think 10HP matters in an ITA car?

None of the above should be taken to say we should or should not be allowed to remove the heater core, I'm just saying.

[joeg]

Ambient Air is blown through the core and diverted to the windshield for a "defroster"

[jrvisual]

"9.1.3. Improved Touring Category Specifications
9. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk

c. ... Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact.

f. ... Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted."

Just Playing Devil's Advocate and otherwise causing problems. :D

If you creatively interpret these lines from the ITCS, and creatively design your cage with front cross bar to pass though where your heater core should be, would it not be legal to remove your heater core. Getting that cross bar as far forward as possible would produce a safer cage and in many cars require the removal of the heater core.

Argue amongst yourselves:014:

[lateapex911]

Interesting.
1- I own a 1st gen RX-7. And curiously, I'm on the ITAC. I know of 1st gens getting under the min. My car was just weighed post race at Mid Ohio at 2300. And I have a sunroof, as well as some other tricks up my sleeve that will pull 20 or more out of the car. Sadly, I'm 6'3", and I weigh 195 -205, depending ...so, with a median driver, it appears the weight is possible.

2- I have my cage dash bar running thru the dash, hitting the firewall, then running back to the A pillar downtubes. And my heater core is intact. And functional. using that allowance is old news, and cheesy, at least to me.

3- I still don't buy the "3pounds matters" line of thinking. YES, it adds up, BUT, I'm only talking about ONE three pound item, not TEN.

If you are not a pro and you're reading this, I'll give you $500 if you can bring your IT car, a blindfold and a 3 pound object. You put the blindfold on, get in the car...the 3 pounds may, or may not be there. We do it again, and again, and again. 5 laps per session. If you can show consistent laps that are faster when the weight is out, the money is yours.

Not to be cocky and sound like tGA, but you can't. My money is safe.

;)

[Knestis]

But if tGA were DRIVING, your money would be...

...his.

:)

K

[joeracerx95]

Interesting.
1- I own a 1st gen RX-7. And curiously, I'm on the ITAC. I know of 1st gens getting under the min. My car was just weighed post race at Mid Ohio at 2300. And I have a sunroof, as well as some other tricks up my sleeve that will pull 20 or more out of the car. Sadly, I'm 6'3", and I weigh 195 -205, depending ...so, with a median driver, it appears the weight is possible.

2- I have my cage dash bar running thru the dash, hitting the firewall, then running back to the A pillar downtubes. And my heater core is intact. And functional. using that allowance is old news, and cheesy, at least to me.

3- I still don't buy the "3pounds matters" line of thinking. YES, it adds up, BUT, I'm only talking about ONE three pound item, not TEN.

If you are not a pro and you're reading this, I'll give you $500 if you can bring your IT car, a blindfold and a 3 pound object. You put the blindfold on, get in the car...the 3 pounds may, or may not be there. We do it again, and again, and again. 5 laps per session. If you can show consistent laps that are faster when the weight is out, the money is yours.

Not to be cocky and sound like tGA, but you can't. My money is safe.

;)

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

[jrvisual]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

Eat and drink less :D

[lateapex911]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

How much does your header weigh? How about the exhaust? The muffler? (Mines 6 pounds, I think). The radiator..aluminum? Fuel cell and bracketry? Seat? gauge cluster out? (It's about 3 right there). Fasteners? All the gunk on the floor gone? Many people just skin over the sunroof opening. But they keep the heavy roof under it. The non sunroof roof has no triple thick gutters and such...it's lighter. Doors gutted? Cage safe but minimal? Hollow sway bars? Aluminum bits everywhere when appropriate? Wheels under 10 pounds each? useless bling items banished (tower strut is debated to be less than useful, for example, and I see many that are made with heavy gauge L or C channel, and they are in front of the strut. Great, lots of weight, up high, in front of the front axle!) And so on..........

There's 20 pounds in there I bet, if you haven't done some of it. I accept paypal to my email below! ;)

Each item above has potential. Each one has tradeoffs. And I haven't done each of those...yet.

It can be done, and it has been done.

[Knestis]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

Put the money toward decreasing the weight. Diminishing returns becomes an increasingly important issue and the removal of each additional pound costs more than the previous one.

K

[joeracerx95]

How much does your header weigh? How about the exhaust? The muffler? (Mines 6 pounds, I think). The radiator..aluminum? Fuel cell and bracketry? Seat? gauge cluster out? (It's about 3 right there). Fasteners? All the gunk on the floor gone? Many people just skin over the sunroof opening. But they keep the heavy roof under it. The non sunroof roof has no triple thick gutters and such...it's lighter. Doors gutted? Cage safe but minimal? Hollow sway bars? Aluminum bits everywhere when appropriate? Wheels under 10 pounds each? useless bling items banished (tower strut is debated to be less than useful, for example, and I see many that are made with heavy gauge L or C channel, and they are in front of the strut. Great, lots of weight, up high, in front of the front axle!) And so on..........

There's 20 pounds in there I bet, if you haven't done some of it. I accept paypal to my email below! ;)

Each item above has potential. Each one has tradeoffs. And I haven't done each of those...yet.

It can be done, and it has been done.

Everything you mentioned except hollow roll bars has been done and I don't think those are worth 20lb by themselves. Funny, but that seems to be a list of several 3-5 pound modifications that add up to a meaningful amount. Hmmm, where have I heard that mentioned before as being important??? :D

Your $500 can be found in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnel's porch. (In pennies)

Anyway, sorry to temporarily highjack the thread. This is about rules, rule changes etc. not about my inability to make minimum weight.

So what I think I'm hearing the rules makers say is that those that suggest rule changes don't always understand the unintended consequences of their suggestion, which is very true. I would also suggest to the rules makers to please minimize condescending treatment of the people making the suggestions because maybe you don't see the whole picture all the time either. For reference please see "Bizzaro World ITCS." as an example of treating people who are trying to make honest efforts to improve things as nothing more than idiots worthy of public ridicule.

So sometimes you have to ask the question, "What problem exists that this solves?" I can't think of a meaningful problem that exists with having the heater core in the car. So why try to solve a problem that doesn't exist? Especially if that change may lead to unforeseen problems. Remember, only hindsight is 20/20. Just because you can't think of any potential problems doesn't mean there aren't going to be some.

[lateapex911]

. I would also suggest to the rules makers to please minimize condescending treatment of the people making the suggestions because maybe you don't see the whole picture all the time either. For reference please see "Bizzaro World ITCS." as an example of treating people who are trying to make honest efforts to improve things as nothing more than idiots worthy of public ridicule.

.

I think Kirks intent, and I should probably leave it to him to explain it, but.....wasn't to publicly ridicule people for having honest suggestions, but more as a method of illustrating the slippery slope, and how easy it is to travel great distances down it in relatively small steps.

I also think he wouldn't mind showing the world the sometimes selfish requests that are received.....it's a reminder that personal interests are often at the core of, or at least involved in, many requests. That's not always a bad thing, but if the guy next to in grid you shows up with all lexan instead of glass, and it's a spec line allowance, you'll be less than pleased I bet. (actual request, IIRC)

[tom_sprecher]

All in fun...

What wheels are under 10# and where can I get some? Oh, wait; I don't have the money for that. Now I guess I need to buy an aluminum fuel cell container. Damn, that takes money, too. Hollow swab bar, yeah...wait; wonder how much those are? More than I got I'm sure.

Everything else on his list I've done except the strut bar but that came from MazdaSpeed and didn't seem like it weighted much. I do have some gauges but I'm pretty sure that oil pressure and water temp is something good to know as long as it's before seeing smoke. Or at least I think I read that somewhere.

Get rid of bling...I could get rid of the cool helmet system I made but down here in the summer it can get pretty hot and I'd hate to cause a wreck due to heat exhaustion induced dizziness. Or die of heat stroke shortly there after, that is if the wreck didn't kill me. Hmmm...maybe I should keep that bling. I'm definitely leaving the Mr. T necklaces and the gangsta three finger ring at home on race weekend though.

I'm 6'2" and 195 and am still 60# over weight. I can't possible eat any more salad unless I just become a vegetarian and even still there's no way I'm getting down to 135. Unless I amputated a leg, but then how would I push the clutch? I'm pretty sure the GCR forbids automatics, or it should. Plus, it would suck if I cut off my leg and still wasn't at minimum weight. How would I weigh my leg? I mean before I cut off. This is starting to get complicated and desperate.

Crap. Looks like no mun, no fun.

Anybody got any money that is weighing them down and reducing their lap times that they would like to get rid of? I can help you, call me. Or, if you want to buy some bling, (except for the iced out hip hop ring), lemme know.

[lateapex911]

Tom, the wheels are used, and they've been a project, but they aren't made of gold. Hollow sway bars are common circle track items, as is the alum components that go with. My roto molded cel is feather weight...no need to get spendy there, and it was under $200 IIRC. And the stock gauges are removable...for free.

I hear what you're saying, but short of adding XX pounds to EVERY car across America that runs in ITA, there's no simple solution. I'm within 20 pounds, and theres 10 on me...but, I am positive that I'm not losing races because the car is 20 over.