ensuring legal cars

[dickita15]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.
Is it something that can be done with the way the rules are written?
Is there a way to make the protest process more user friendly for both parties?
Should tech be more proactive in enforcement with the additional staffing and training that would require?
Is it really a problem or should I just shut up and race?

[JeffYoung]

Dick, good questions.

My perceptions from my lillipad in my little pond here in the NCR region of the SEDiv:

I believe that my class is mostly legal cars. All of us probably have something here or there that is not legal. I had brake ducts mounted improperly and am in the process of correcting a distributor issue. But, in almost all cases, in ITS anyway, I don't think we have big time performance enhancing cheating going on. I would say it is mostly policed "internally" with a friendly chat with someone that has something illegal and that has worked decently so far.

[trhoppe]

In a conversation with Kirk I suggested a VTS for every car in IT. List out those specs that aren't in the Service Manual that we want to care about. Sure it will be some effort, but it fixes it "right".

Only write VTS's for requested cars. That way you don't have to do every car eligible for IT.

Once you have real specs, devote $10-15 of every entry fee to pay someone to actually enforce the cars and check the specs. Much like in SM.

-Tom

[JoshS]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.
Is it something that can be done with the way the rules are written?
Is there a way to make the protest process more user friendly for both parties?
Should tech be more proactive in enforcement with the additional staffing and training that would require?
Is it really a problem or should I just shut up and race?
Well, I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect "tech" to find things on a car that you think you know about. That option makes no sense to me.

The only way to have something you know is illegal on one of your competitors looked at is to tell the club, and the process for that is called a protest. If for some reason the process is too difficult, then we should clean it up (but I don't think it's very difficult at all.)

That stewards dissuade entrants from filing protests (rumor, I haven't experienced this) is a problem. Protests should be encouraged, not discouraged, and there should be no shame in filing one. We should all (including those protested) see the big picture and understand that legal cars makes everything better, and PROVING that a car is legal is actually a feather in one's cap.

[lateapex911]

Josh, i think Dick was asking open minded questions. He's a tech inspector, by the way.

I think it is actually cool to have open hood impounds after qualifying, for example. Walk around, check things out. Sure, you can't SEE the illegal cam, but you CAN hear people talking about solid engine mounts and you can see illegal ram air or cold air openings.

Or illegal batteries, or a host of other little cheats. And sometimes thats not the only thing in there...

...and tech can go and do other things, like weigh cars..that's not going to require "model specific" knowledge is it? Maybe after qualifying, LOL. Might be funny to see what people run for weights. Some folks have options.

Bottom line, I've seen lot's over the years, and while in many cases cheaters took themselves out, in others they didn't. Yup, i know, write the paper...but if you have ever done a tear down protest, you know it's a lot of work, and your racing will suffer if you don't have a crew to do everything. (Ask me how I know...) If there are certain things tech can do to help push legality, even if they aren't 100% successful, it's worth considering.

[Knestis]

Another good suggestion that came up in the discussion Tom mentions is enhancing the distinction between "tech" and "compliance." Start by having different people doing the two jobs, the first being concerned ONLY with safety equipment and entry eligibility - the pre-race stuff. The compliance people's job wouldn't start until (1) the checkers fall, or (2) someone files a request for action prior to that time. Have one steward whose only job is compliance, so he/she is not pooped out at the end of the day when the work starts.

We'd also have to make sure those folks have the tools and resources to do the job. The enhanced VTS idea seems sound, the more I think about it. We have the stupid "factory service manual" rule, which gets extended in interpretation as meaning that if a value isn't in that book, there's no requirement that it be maintained as stock. This has been Travis' ongoing point about the SM cam rule and I may be to the point where I agree that we need to document all of the measurements that we care about. MAY need to. I still think that a cultural shift is possible, that puts the onus on Captain Clever to demonstrate where he got his "replacement" camshaft, that anyone can get one, and that it is in fact stock. But that cultural shift is unlikely and probably harder work in the long run than building the library of specs.

We've talked before about a searchable database of stewards' and COA's decisions, that could form a basis for actual case law and persistent precedent. I could build that system in a weekend using an open-source content management system like we used on http://www.rsicommunity.org.

We should also codify the solo-style "parc expose" open-hood, -trunk, -doors, one side on jackstands deal. If we all knew we'd have every other entrant and crew member crawling up our respective orifices, the culture WOULD change. (Thanks again Tom, Tara, Grant, and Bowie.)

K

EDIT - and to add, not only is this something we can do with the current rules, we should absolutely get over the idea that we can improve compliance by CHANGING rules. I know I'm a broken record on this but it's fundamental.

[wbp]

If you are running Regional races in the SEDIV, I believe you can expect to have two items, in addition to weight, checked on each impounded car. The Chief of Tech and Chief Steward will prepare a list of what will be checked on each class before the event. If Tech is very short on people, one of the two items may have to be something really quick to check.
What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?

[lateapex911]

What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?
Done!
And why not o[en trunks and hatches too...?

[jjjanos]

What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?

I think it's a great idea. I also think that a minimum of 2 groups each weekend should have an IMPOUND ALL with the same procedure. Run everybody over the scales and hoods up. One of the groups could even be done on Saturday.

[JeffYoung]

No problem here. We often have the hood open all the time in teh paddock anyway...don't ask me why.......

[JoshS]

Why didn't all of you who like this idea write to the CRB in support of it when they asked for member input on it in Fastrack 10/06? Well, better late than never, do it now!

MEMBER ADVISORIES

GCR

2. The CRB is considering allowing open visual inspections by competitors of vehicles at impound and invites input from the membership.

[ddewhurst]

Dick, I have said it in the past & I'll say it again because roll cages are one of the items that people cheat with on a regular basis. Have people support tech at anual tech who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars. Example I KNOW whats under the dash of Miatas & I KNOW by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items if the down tubes are legal or illegal.

I also wrote a letter with respect to Spec Miata/ITA miata roll cages but nothing happened. Within the letter I suggested which sentences people are using to butcher whatever they like when constructing roll cages. Duh, nothing hapened. I will presume when people write letters with zero results the letter writter figures why wst the time. From my perspective I believe the ITAC/SMAC/CRB would like people to think they are the only people who know anything.

[jhooten]

What would you like me to check in post race tech at the Lone Star regional on the 24th? Top three in each class get weighed.

Fuel sample ports in the Feed line not the return?
Fuel test?
Tire Size/DOT?
Or a full tear down of each engine and transmission?

You have to remember there are 7 classes in the IT run group. That is 21 top three cars. We have a half hour for impound and three to five guys at tech.

BTW, if the teams would send the crew to tech to push the cars on the scales instead of us having to do it we would have more time to actually tech the cars.

[gran racing]

Might be funny to see what people run for weights.

Both light and overly heavy. On my checklist before MidOhio – figure out how much ballast I can remove to get a bit closer to min. weight.


If for some reason the process is too difficult, then we should clean it up (but I don't think it's very difficult at all.)

I find the process of filing a protest extremely difficult, confusing, frustrating among other things. We’ve seen some very experienced groups of people file protests and learned the challenges they faced. For a person who is not very technical to file a protest becomes even tougher

I realize that the cost to protest various items varies from car to car, but it would be nice to have some general ballpark ideas. Maybe some type of “Guide to Improved Touring Protesting” could be created. It seems like there are several common areas people are interested in determining the legality of cars. Heck, maybe as an IT group we could create a list which is a bit more specific to various cars / makes. For example (I could be wrong, but really don’t think so) my Prelude’s cam would be easy to access while other makes are not so easy. Include what the standard shop hours to remove / install various items are to give people a general idea how much a protest might cost. Again, I’m not talking about every item on a car that could be protested, but the most common items.

In the list of various “hot” items for people to check, provide recommendations of other items the person might want to look at the same time. I can’t remember what it was, but when researching a possible future protest it was suggested to me that if you’ll be verifying that, you need to take these items out regardless so it won’t cost anything more to verify them at the same time. In essence, create various packages people might elect to protest another car for. From this guide, people could essentially take a section they’re interested in having looked at and put it on the protest sheet. Scruitineers could also benefit from this guide by having a better idea of what might be coming their way.

If the process to protest a car is made easier, people would be less likely to use illegal items.


Start by having different people doing the two jobs

This would be fantastic! Maybe there even be another set of people who can help people with the protest process itself, who are there only to provide guidance. Oh, you think this is wrong on the car, while doing that it only makes sense to check this as well type of assistance. (They would not be a part of the actual determination of a car’s legality.)

[Knestis]

I was reminded a week or so ago that the Club has a non-teardown procedure for checking transmission ratios. I had completely ignored that (blame being old) so this is going to the top of my potential "write paper on" list (e.g., for the ARRC and IT Fest).

Large performance potential + easy parts cheat on VWs + cheap protest = UH OH :)

K

[JeffYoung]

Our tech guys (all good) seem most focused on safety. On occasion they get worked up (usually rightfully so) over a particular issue. Last spring it was spoilers too low. I've seen them get after a few cage designs. Weight obviously.

But real mechanical stuff like gear ratios or compression or cams? At a SARRC regional event, VERY RARE for that to happen on its own without a protest.

So, is the policy goal here to INCREASE the amount of technical supervision by TECH, or by RACERS as a group?

[tderonne]

I was reminded a week or so ago that the Club has a non-teardown procedure for checking transmission ratios. I had completely ignored that (blame being old) so this is going to the top of my potential "write paper on" list (e.g., for the ARRC and IT Fest).

Large performance potential + easy parts cheat on VWs + cheap protest = UH OH :)

K

I've done it at Waterford. Simply roll the car in gear a certain number of engine revolutions (1 or 2). Do it for two or three gears. The ratio of the distances traveled matches the ratio between the gears involved. Won't tell you exactly what ratios are in there, but it's the relative gearing that's important anyway. Takes a few folks to push it in gear, but it works out very accurately.

[planet6racing]

Dick, I have said it in the past & I'll say it again because roll cages are one of the items that people cheat with on a regular basis. Have people support tech at anual tech who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars. Example I KNOW whats under the dash of Miatas & I KNOW by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items if the down tubes are legal or illegal.

I also wrote a letter with respect to Spec Miata/ITA miata roll cages but nothing happened. Within the letter I suggested which sentences people are using to butcher whatever they like when constructing roll cages. Duh, nothing hapened. I will presume when people write letters with zero results the letter writter figures why wst the time. From my perspective I believe the ITAC/SMAC/CRB would like people to think they are the only people who know anything.

I know that Tech would be happy to have you as a volunteer. And, iirc, isn't the next regional a race where SM annual tech is waived? Sounds like the perfect opportunity.

[ddewhurst]

***Have people support tech at ANUAL TECH who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars.***

Bill, read twice then post. ANUAL TECH gets the illegal roll cages at the get go the first time they are looked at.:o

[GKR_17]

Fuel sample ports in the Feed line not the return?


That's not what the rule says. The sample port must be "located between the fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injectors". The return line meets that requirement. Or did I miss something in Fastrack?

[planet6racing]

***Have people support tech at ANUAL TECH who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars.***

Bill, read twice then post. ANUAL TECH gets the illegal roll cages at the get go the first time they are looked at.:o

What are you saying? Are you saying that Annual tech is catching the problem, but then the driver makes changes after that? I stand by my statement. If all the cars are getting re-annualed (or teched like they are, anyway), you, as an inspector, have plenty of time to see this.

[jhooten]

Actually the says "in a fuel Line" ( http://www.scca.org/documents/Fastrack/08-fastrack-mar.pdf top of page 8)

Do you have enough flow in the return line with power to the fuel pump and the engine not running to provide a sample? If you cannot fill the bottle in a "reasonable" amount of time should tech refer you to the CS for not giving a sample as requested?

Once again we have 30 minutes or less to obtain and test 21 samples befor the CS releases the cars from impound and to clear impound for the next run group. We can't give you twenty minutes to trickle a full bottle from your return line even if the rule allows the sample port to be located there.

What we have here is a conflict between the letter and the intent of the law. The proposed wording of the rule change was "in the fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetors or fuel injection system. As written the rule allows you to install the sample port between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Might cause some problems if you did it that way.

[MMiskoe]

That's not what the rule says. The sample port must be "located between the fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injectors". The return line meets that requirement. Or did I miss something in Fastrack?



The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.

The return line is the smart place to put it for leaks etc, provided you can get the sample jar to fill fast enough.

As for rule compliance - tech needs more people. It is completely unreasonable to expect the 2 or 3 guys who are on duty for tech to weigh every car that comes off the track. Figure the run group is 30 cars x 1 minute each blows the entire 30 minute impound. And I doubt you can get 30 cars weighed in 30 minutes. Never mind thinking about checking gear ratios or cams. Random selection of cars would help, but leads to people feeling that they were singled out of the crowd.

It is also unlikely that tech will get enough people who are well versed in checking stuff. First off what do you have to measure against? What do you have to measure with? When was it last calibrated? This is not a slam against guys running tech, it is just the way it is. That's why good machine shops who build good engines and drivelines get big bucks for their efforts.

A pessimistic view, but a reality at this time.

Matt

[JohnRW]

Once again we have 30 minutes or less to obtain and test 21 samples befor the CS releases the cars from impound and to clear impound for the next run group. We can't give you twenty minutes to trickle a full bottle from your return line even if the rule allows the sample port to be located there.

Easy solution - don't release the cars. You can hold them for as long as necessary to complete any tests or examinations. There is no "mandatory" 30 minute rule at Impound. And the CS doesn't release the cars, the Chief of Tech does.

Just don't release them. Chief of Tech just tells CS that he's holding cars, and either CofT or CS tells T&S to hold results ("provisional" qualifying or results can be posted).

[GKR_17]

The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.


The rule says tank, not pump. So the return line does meet the rule.

[GKR_17]

As written the rule allows you to install the sample port between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Might cause some problems if you did it that way.

That could be a perfect spot if it's low enough for gravity feed. Low pressure, and out of the engine compartment.

[jjjanos]

The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.

Fuel Line: A fuel line is a hose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hose_%28tubing%29) used to bring fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel) from one point in a vehicle to another.

Is the line between the carbs/injectors and the tank?

Then its appearance is that of an mallard. It waddles like a mallard. It says quack.

It meets the definition and I think you will have to search long and hard to find a group of stewards who would bounce such a car.


The return line is the smart place to put it for leaks etc, provided you can get the sample jar to fill fast enough.

I found no reference in the GCR as to how quickly one must fill the specimen container.

Sorry, but that is the sort of thing that'll get tossed by the SoMs or overturned by the CoA and makes people P.O. about SCCA.

[jhooten]

Easy solution - don't release the cars. You can hold them for as long as necessary to complete any tests or examinations. There is no "mandatory" 30 minute rule at Impound. And the CS doesn't release the cars, the Chief of Tech does.

Just don't release them. Chief of Tech just tells CS that he's holding cars, and either CofT or CS tells T&S to hold results ("provisional" qualifying or results can be posted).

Not here he don't. The Tech Chief has to request permission from the CS to release impound unless the race has been designated as a no impound race. The GCR may not specify an impound time, the supps do. The first driver to go to the CS and whine that it has been 30 min and 1 sec and cars get released except for the ones being protested or held for an on track incident.

[Knestis]

I think that maybe, when Dick asked the question, he was imagining that maybe things don't have to be done exactly the way they currently are. If the answer to "How can we do things differently...?" is "We can't," then there's no point in having the conversation. We do what we've always done and we'll get what we've always got.

Or put differently, saying "We can't do it differently" is pretty much the same thing as saying, "I'm fine with the way things are."

K

[Knestis]

Why didn't all of you who like this idea write to the CRB in support of it when they asked for member input on it in Fastrack 10/06? ... 2. The CRB is considering allowing open visual inspections by competitors of vehicles at impound and invites input from the membership.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I almost never dig through the general GCR stuff in FasTrack. Thanks for pointing that out, Josh.

K

[RSTPerformance]

Dick-

Your in IT-7... Shut up and race! :)

Dave-

I have suggested it before... If were going to file a protest I would use all the resources available to me. I would probably follow this process:

0. (I say zero because I would have done this before even considering a protest). Talk to the driver/owner of the car in question.

1. Before the event Call a dealer (or two/three) and get a quote to replace the part in the vehicle (cam, crank, Piston, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for any IT car to expect more of a bond than a dealership rate.

2. Post the car make/model and the item you intend to protest here on IT.com. Let the hundreds of other people on this site help you build the list of other parts to protest.

3. Maybe your posting will make a scare factor and the competitor will not race in races you enter or they might fix thier car. Even better they will bicker online with everyone and give us some entertainment.

4. When the car in question shows up at an event go file a protest. Bring your written quote from the dealer to help set the bond. Sign the check and wait for the results.

Seems simple enough to me.

David-

How many years have you been on this rollcage thing? Are these illigal cages unsafe or more safe? What exactly is the performance gain? Give it up already.

Fuel port people-

I think that the fuel sampling issue has a lot more problems then just getting the fuel. Lets figure out (in another thread) how to test the fuel first!

Impount all people-

I have been saying we need to do this for years. We don't need the stewards or tech to support this idea, just go to impound on your own even if you are not in the top 3 or whatever is required. I go directly to impoind 90% of the time even if I am not in the top 10. At the IT Fest (many of you went and didn't go to impound) my brother and I were the only ITB cars that were not in the top 3 and everyone looked at us. I felt you were all wondering what we were doing as we were not worthy of being in impound... as if you needed to earn your spot in impound. Its sad that we/you ask for something you can do without being told to do it.

All those that think tech and the stewards should enforce the rules-

Try memorizing all the rules for all the classes, nevermind all the individual car make/model differences in design & implementation of those rules (NOT JUST IT, ALL 30+ SCCA CLASSES). Its NOT possible no matter how many people you get and how much your willing to pay them. Professional racing (even the SCCA National Runoffs) have several people whom collectively are experts from all over the country. Localy you will never find that. We need to find a way to police ourselves, if you don't like that then run a spec class where "better" compliance checks are made.


Raymond "Sorry about my rants, I hope they don't come out wrong but they are just my thoughts...." Blethen

[Z3_GoCar]

I've done it at Waterford. Simply roll the car in gear a certain number of engine revolutions (1 or 2). Do it for two or three gears. The ratio of the distances traveled matches the ratio between the gears involved. Won't tell you exactly what ratios are in there, but it's the relative gearing that's important anyway. Takes a few folks to push it in gear, but it works out very accurately.

Won't work on a BMW with 11:1 compression. Even with stock compression I can't push start my car in 1st. Blame it on the rubber guibo too I guess.

James

[JohnRW]

Not here he don't. The Tech Chief has to request permission from the CS to release impound unless the race has been designated as a no impound race. The GCR may not specify an impound time, the supps do..


GCR says "minimum" impound of 30 minutes, unless specified in the Supps.

You have a region-specific problem of your own creation. If time is not sufficient, "Chief of Tech" needs to talk to "writer of Supps", or ask the Stewards of the Meet to change it "at the track".

[tderonne]

Won't work on a BMW with 11:1 compression. Even with stock compression I can't push start my car in 1st. Blame it on the rubber guibo too I guess.

James

Don't need to do 1st gear. Top couple will give you enough info. Worst case, pull the sparkplugs.

[gran racing]

I felt you were all wondering what we were doing as we were not worthy of being in impound...

Actually I thought you were there to congratulate us, check out our cars a bit, poke fun at me for my poor attempt at drawing fuel - never did the not worthy thing cross my mind.

I absolutely believe that there are ways for us to improve upon the protest process without a rules change. I know I already said this, but the majority of people I speak with are intimidated with the protest process and don't have an understanding of how to utilize the process.

[jhooten]

GCR says "minimum" impound of 30 minutes, unless specified in the Supps.

You have a region-specific problem of your own creation. If time is not sufficient, "Chief of Tech" needs to talk to "writer of Supps", or ask the Stewards of the Meet to change it "at the track".

Division actually. The Divisional Stewards approve the Supps and frown on deviations from the divisions standard template.

BTW wasn't you back in post 24 that said there was no mandatory impound time?

[ddewhurst]

Bill, when have you ever viewed a tech person EVER look behind a dash to view the roll cage?

***How many years have you been on this rollcage thing? Are these illigal cages unsafe or more safe? What exactly is the performance gain? Give it up already.***

Raymond, maybe if people had paid some attention with the Production cars in the 70's they would not be what they are today. Wasn't there a very large stink a few years ago in the NE about Miata roll cages. Please remember the crap that happens in your Division with roll cages before you get up on your soap box. The soap box position seems to be trendy in the NE. Is your roll cage illegal & my comments burn a bit. You would not be the only car in the NE who has an illegal roll cage. Have you lost track of the IT rules changes over the past couple years.

Not to drag Dick into this post but he did say something to the effect of: What can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant. < I would say he means legal to the written GCR words.

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

I think the point about your cage issue is simple: It's an annual tech issue. It's not a post-race compliance issue. Cages are supposed to be evaluated and certified prior to even hitting the track. It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with week-to-week compliance.

Hoods and trunks up just like autox. Have been trying to get that done for years.

[planet6racing]

Have people support tech at anual tech who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars. Example I KNOW whats under the dash of Miatas & I KNOW by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items if the down tubes are legal or illegal.



Bill, when have you ever viewed a tech person EVER look behind a dash to view the roll cage?


David:

My posts have been directly against the first quote. You are claiming to "be an expert" and to be able to tell just "...by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items..." to determine legality. From the way it reads, you could be working in tech and be able to tell, without looking behind the dash to determine legality. If so, why don't you volunteer and do so? I know Dennis, Mark, and Vern would all appreciate the help...

If you're not actually going to do something (e.g. Protest), then stop whining about it. Poop or get off the pot. You should have your SM done by now, so you really don't have any more excuses for not being there and not protesting. It even sounds like the protest bond will be minimal...

[ddewhurst]

Andy, your correct with the annual tech of cages.

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.

[Eagle7]

David,

I think the point about your cage issue is simple: It's an annual tech issue. It's not a post-race compliance issue. Cages are supposed to be evaluated and certified prior to even hitting the track. It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with week-to-week compliance.
Not sure I buy this. In my experience, tech doesn't care if it's illegal as long as its safe. They'll check the top of the halo joints for a complete weld, but don't care if your mounting plates are too large. It's hard for me to believe they would flunk you at your annual if you had illegally removed material to make a safe cage.

[RacerBowie]

Andy, your correct with the annual tech of cages.

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.

Could you possibly be any more of an ass on the internet? Seriously?

I can't put you on "ignore" because of your moderator status, but you keep popping up in otherwise productive threads with your poor attitude and your repetitive harpings on this perceived Miata cage issue. You were just offered a great way, in your region even, to actually DO something about this issue you keep whining about. Instead you choose to try to belittle the person who made the suggestion to you.

I keep coming back to this site because I feel it is important to stay up to date with the happenings in the category in which I race. But every time I have to deal with your attitude while reading through a thread I become that much more likely to just unplug. I'm sure the community here wouldn't miss me, as I don't add a whole lot to this forum, but I think that's a shame.

Maybe I'll just revert back to getting my IT news at the racetrack.

[JLawton]

Let's be honest with ourselves. There are a lot of limiting factors to how fast we are at this level. Driver ability, tire quality, engine prep, etc. The only way to really make a difference in performance with illegal items is to do lots of little things or cams/compression/etc.

If you see a lot of little things, talk to the guy. Which is what I think happens most of the time .

For the things that make a BIG difference it's difficult inspect. Not many people are willing to cough up $5,000 to have an engin torn apart. You never realy know if it's good driving, a well built engine or illegal pistons. All of us working on a small budget better be damned sure they'll find somthing illegal before they write a protest. Right?

What we had done in our protest is get a group together to soften the financial blow if we're wrong.

The only way to keep the illegal cars out is to have tech tear down engines (like the ARRC) or make it easier (less costly) to protest. Do we tack on an extra "compliance fee" to pay tech inspectors? How are the low budget guys going to rebuild their engine before the next race? If it's too easy to protest do we end up with a lot of protests that are found compliant?

No easy solutions.....

[planet6racing]

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.



Exactly what points have I misread? I've even included the quotes of YOUR statements that exhibit your point.

And, since you are saying that Raymond and I are on soap boxes, perhaps you should look under your feet.

[planet6racing]

I'm sure the community here wouldn't miss me, as I don't add a whole lot to this forum, but I think that's a shame.


I'd miss you, Bowie. Who else would talk about what beer to bring to the ARRC? Oh, wait, probably EVERYBODY on this board!! :D :happy204:

[gran racing]

or cams/compression/etc.

And unfortunately on some cars it is quite a job to even get a cam out. I was quoted 10 hours in labor for a BMW 2002 which has several aftermarket cams available that provide fantastic gains. :( The complexity and costs associated with protests sure do make self-policing a challenge. How often are mechanical protests actually done in IT? I think it's fairly rare.

Yeah, I'd pay a compliance fee and deal with having to learn how to take my car apart and put it back together once in a while.

[GKR_17]

And unfortunately on some cars it is quite a job to even get a cam out. I was quoted 10 hours in labor for a BMW 2002 which has several aftermarket cams available that provide fantastic gains. :( The complexity and costs associated with protests sure do make self-policing a challenge. How often are mechanical protests actually done in IT? I think it's fairly rare.

Yeah, I'd pay a compliance fee and deal with having to learn how to take my car apart and put it back together once in a while.

You can check lift without pulling the cam. Of course it also helps when "Schrick 292" is stamped on it. That car was 6 seconds slower when it came back, though they were doing more than cams...

If you're looking at 02's check the distributor (it should have a connector for the vacuum advance). The vast majority of ITB 2002's I've seen run the tii distributor which is only legal in ITA.

[pballance]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.


As a newcomer I welcome and and all checks of my car. My local scrutineer went over the cage thoroughly and deemed it safe.

If anyone sees anything that is wrong, help me get it corrected as I would not knowingly do something illegal. I know what that is about as well. Back in the day I crewed for an IMSA RS car that I knew the engine, valve train, and fueling systems were prepped beyond the rules. Something about having to trailer the car away from the track just to adjust valves :rolleyes:

I am in favor of of the SOLO style open hood/trunk/hatch/remove wheel impound. It is a cheap effective way to deter violations. I also suggest that we all post our minimum weights on the car even though the CRB said not necessary and that we all roll over the scales at the end of the race.

I am also willing to contribute to a complaince fund.

And SteveE, I have(and had) my nomex socks!!! :):)

[shwah]

In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'?

Of course this would apply to all cars with fuel injection - is there an easy way to verify the correct injectors? Best I can think of is removal and part number confirmation....

[Z3_GoCar]

You can check lift without pulling the cam. Of course it also helps when "Schrick 292" is stamped on it. That car was 6 seconds slower when it came back, though they were doing more than cams...

If you're looking at 02's check the distributor (it should have a connector for the vacuum advance). The vast majority of ITB 2002's I've seen run the tii distributor which is only legal in ITA.


In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'?

Of course this would apply to all cars with fuel injection - is there an easy way to verify the correct injectors? Best I can think of is removal and part number confirmation....

In the spirit of Grafton's post I'd suggest looking for the ones that say "RC Injectors" first. Next check part numbers on the side of the Bosch injector. I can say this because the injectors currently in my manifold say "RC" in bold red letters.

One other thing I want to bring up. I understand that BMW makes a group N cam, which is designed along the lines of the best Miata spec cam. Basically, it spintrons to the best of the factory cam specs, it's not as potent as the "Schrick 292" but better still better than what's in 90% of the factory motors.

James

[ddewhurst]

***Could you possibly be any more of an ass on the internet?***

Bowie, this ^ is the arroganace of someone that obviously could care less about the wrirren rules. Read the first post of this thread. In so many words it says. What can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant. Are you suggesting we use selective rules enforcement to meet compliance of only the rules you like or want enforced?

I respect items I have read of your racing history & current racing. Are you of the judgement that anything & everthing is legal when fabing a ITA Miata/Spec Miat roll cages? I was on a trip to the S.E. racing back in March & I would say from my observations there is good reason for concern about what people are doing for the implementation of IT/Spec Miata roll cages.

When you see my name just click on by & don't read. :)

[RSTPerformance]

Actually I thought you were there to congratulate us, check out our cars a bit, poke fun at me for my poor attempt at drawing fuel - never did the not worthy thing cross my mind.


I didn't specify you are the one that made me feel that way ;) I would go to impound (I think I have) to say congrats even if I wasn't racing!!!



Raymond, maybe if people had paid some attention with the Production cars in the 70's they would not be what they are today. Wasn't there a very large stink a few years ago in the NE about Miata roll cages. Please remember the crap that happens in your Division with roll cages before you get up on your soap box. The soap box position seems to be trendy in the NE. Is your roll cage illegal & my comments burn a bit. You would not be the only car in the NE who has an illegal roll cage. Have you lost track of the IT rules changes over the past couple years.


David-

My cage is 100% legal... no worries at all on that one! As for the past NE miata cage stuff I wish I was never involved.

Lets get back on the overall topic... In my opinion the biggest issue is the cost associated with making a protest, otherwise I would have done a few already.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Lets get back on the overall topic... In my opinion the biggest issue is the cost associated with making a protest, otherwise I would have done a few already.

Raymond

I am going to disagree here a little. I like the fact that the protestor has to have some skin in the game. If you know something is illegal, and you find it, you aren't out the money. If you accuse and you are wrong, you pay up. Wish our judicial system was similar....

[Knestis]

In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'? ...

I'm old and infirm but I THINK I remember something about them actually being a different color...? I've never seen one so I don't know.

K

[gran racing]

I like the fact that the protestor has to have some skin in the game.

Agreed. It's comforting to know that if someone protests a person the costs will be covered assuming they're legal.

On the other side, I too have decided not to file a couple of protests due to the costs involved. I like how you guys did it by getting a group of people to split potential costs, but haven't found it easy to assemble a group. It's usually "yeah, I'd love to protest that car" which turns into "well, I didn't mean actually file a protest."

[JohnRW]

BTW wasn't you back in post 24 that said there was no mandatory impound time?

Context, my friend...a "minimum" time isn't the same as a "mandatory" time (as in a "mandatory maximum").

Exec Stewards and Deputy Execs, in reviewing Supps in advance, DO have certain authorities and DON'T have other authorities. If your Tech folks have time issues, it the sanctioning Region's right to specify whatever is GCR-legal in the Supps for impound, and it's outside the Exec Stewards responsibility to over-ride it. Once the event has started, the SOM's can change any Supps language. Some Execs and Deputy Execs have been sticking there noses into business they have no business attempting to manage. Their responsibilities are spelled out in the SCCA Operations Manual, and "telling a Region how long Impound should last" ISN'T one of them.

[JohnRW]

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.


David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.

You expect the CRB to investigate and craft new language to address a couple of cars that you have an issue with, because you don't have the stones to protest them yourself. Aside from the obvious issue, the CRB has better things to spend its time on than micro-managing a couple of cars in your odd little corner of CENDiv. Grow some stones. It's $25, and you get it back if you're right...or even if your views were "well-founded but wrong". Pony up, kid.

Apparently, you can't be bothered to protest any of these cages you claim are illegal and "nothing is being done about", although it is clearly a Competitor's responsibility to protest compliance issues.

You know how the issue of cages got resolved in the NE ? A competitor protested, and the protest was heard, decided, and upheld. That's how it's supposed to work.

[ddewhurst]

***David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.***

John, I sent pictures identifying chassis members competitors are tourching/cutting out to make room for their front down tubes (you want the same pictures?) along with naming the cage manufacture. I also requested the CRB reword a couple particular loose loop hole sentences by rule number in the ITCS & the SMCS. That John is what would be called proactive. Continiously protesting illegal cages is reactive. The fact they the CRB, ITAC, SMA choose to do nothing falls on someone elses side of the fence. Other than the fact that rules continue to slip/slid I could care less what people do.

Next time you travel to the S.E. look at as many ITA/SM roll cages as you can then report what you viewed. I looked in early March this year at cars in the S.E. & what I saw was flat out illegal & silly to boot.

Ask Andy who fabs (or who did fab) a roll cage that is illegal & he advertises it to be SCCA legal in SportsCar.

[Andy Bettencourt]

***David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.***

John, I sent pictures identifying chassis members competitors are tourching/cutting out to make room for their front down tubes (you want the same pictures?) along with naming the cage manufacture. I also requested the CRB reword a couple particular loose loop hole sentences by rule number in the ITCS & the SMCS. That John is what would be called proactive. Continiously protesting illegal cages is reactive. The fact they the CRB, ITAC, SMA choose to do nothing falls on someone elses side of the fence. Other than the fact that rules continue to slip/slid I could care less what people do.

Next time you travel to the S.E. look at as many ITA/SM roll cages as you can then report what you viewed. I looked in early March this year at cars in the S.E. & what I saw was flat out illegal & silly to boot.

Ask Andy who fabs (or who did fab) a roll cage that is illegal & he advertises it to be SCCA legal in SportsCar.

David,

I think you can name the name if you feel the need to. Here is the final point for you: The SMAC and ITAC DO NOT manage the cage specs. It's a CRB issue so please stop making it out that they aren't doing anything for you. It's a local tech issue IMHO on enforcement. Help your people.

I just don't get why you have such a hair across your rear on this. You have a legal cage? I bet you do. There are a ton of us on this BB that do. Unless you think you are loosing races due to cage design, I just don't get it. Maybe you feel the SCCA is endorsing these cage types or something. Not sure.

It's a dead issue on this BB, with the ITAC and the SMAC so you need not keep harping on it me thinks. Anyone else agree?

[Ron Earp]

Isn't this an IT Forum? David races a Spec Miata. Maybe the complaints would go further on the Spec Miata Forum?

[jjjanos]

John, I sent pictures identifying chassis members competitors are tourching/cutting out to make room for their front down tubes (you want the same pictures?) along with naming the cage manufacture.

To who? Because unless it was to the Chief Steward or Assistant Chief Steward of a particular event, you are doing nothing but beatchin'. The CRB doesn't rule on the legality of a damn thing. It creates laws. The SoMs and the Court of Appeals determine legality.



8.3.2. Lodging a Protest
A protest shall be made in writing, specifying which sections of the GCR
or other applicable rules are alleged to have been violated, and signed by
the protestor. It shall be addressed to the Chief Steward and delivered to
him in person or to an Assistant Chief Steward at the control point for the
race. It shall be promptly forwarded to the Chairman of the SOM.
A. Protest Fee
The protest shall be accompanied by a protest fee of $50 for National
races, $25 for Regional races and Driver’s Schools.



I also requested the CRB reword a couple particular loose loop hole sentences by rule number in the ITCS & the SMCS. That John is what would be called proactive.

Which is it? The cage is illegal - in which case there are no loop holes - or they are legal and you are just upset that you did not see it?


Continiously protesting illegal cages is reactive.
Either the cage is legal or it isn't under the current rules, period. Changing the wording of the GCR will not alter that. Changing the wording might make them illegal, but that has no impact as to their legality under the current, as of now, rules.

[lateapex911]

I just got back from vacation....

This thread is schitzo! Half is perfectly reasonable and productive, the other half is out of control.

I am with Bowie!

David, what the heck is the problem?? Hair across the ass Andy? More like a Saturn V up the butt!? Why the hatred for the NE???

David, the CRB wrote the rules. They got your letter. They feel the rules are adequate as written. You feel certain cars are not abiding by the rules. Go protest them. Win the protest. Create the precedence. Have your way.

But don't come here all bitchy about the soapbox that we Northeasterners are on, and point fingers at Andy for building an illegal cage! leave Bill alone, his point was well made and productive.

Sorry to say it, but you are probably a great guy in person, but on the net, that's not the way you come across. Just because I'm on the ITAC doesn't mean I can't be reasonable in an official capacity, yet defend friends in an unofficial capacity.

[ddewhurst]

Jake, the name of the game should be to be proactive & the whatevre groups of the SCCA are reactive. IMHJ when a member writes a letter, the whatever SCCA groups know the facts of the letter are correct they should be proactive & do something to close the loop holes bla, bal, bla, you have heard it before. PROACTIVE is the key just as any of us are or would be with our business. :) Way to many people on this site like to look at their own posts & feel great about themselves. Several people have said as long as the roll cage is safe, who cares. < This is issue one, how many people deciding a cage is safe have the knowledge or capability to do an analysis of a cage. I have attempted to do something with a letter & to no avail. Trust me Jake, others that think they are the only ones with a grip on things maybe should rethink their thoughts. The original CRB member the letter was sent to totaly understood my bitch & he totaly understood the loop holes. He & I talked about the issues face to face ahead of time.:o

I had decided to let this issue pass but you just could'n leave it alone.

Hope & family you had a great vacation.

EDIT: Had Dick posted that I was missing the boat or did a personal pm suggesting I was off base I would have quit the moment I read anything from him. This is what the thread is about. Subect topic: >>> "So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant."

[Knestis]

Another example of a lack of understanding about the different roles of the branches of government (read, "the Club"). Got a neighbor breaking the law? You don't contact the state legislature and ask them to write a new law, or change the law, to keep someone from not following it. Call the cops. Press charges.

We have a Readers Rant thing in our local paper, where people can call in (don't even have to be able to write!) to voice opinions. Quite a few of them are about barking dogs, cars parked on sidewalks, and other local nuisances. The callers are unhappy enough to squawk about the scofflaws but not enough so that they engage law enforcement to remedy them.

The longer I play this game, and the more I learn from new experiences like the ITAC thing, the more I think we are in many of the pickles we see today because we try to enforce the rules by writing/rewriting them, rather than by, uh... Oh, yeah - enforcing them.

K

[JeffYoung]

Absolutely true.

Let me also ask this question. In Improved Touring racing, do we as a "policing" group think that the prevalence of cheating is high? Or are we perhaps more effective in "policing" than we suspect, meaning that informal pressure, desire not to "rip off" the guys you are racing against, etc. has created a culture where most blatant cheating simply doesn't occur?

From what little I know of the roundy roundy world, I would say that ITS/ITA in the SEDiv is pretty "clean." I think some of that is because we actually do a better job of proactive policiing than we suspect.



The longer I play this game, and the more I learn from new experiences like the ITAC thing, the more I think we are in many of the pickles we see today because we try to enforce the rules by writing/rewriting them, rather than by, uh... Oh, yeah - enforcing them.

K

[planet6racing]

...how many people deciding a cage is safe have the knowledge or capability to do an analysis of a cage.

I do.

[RSTPerformance]

So over the past couple weeks was anyone proactive to change our culture and go to impound even if they were not required? Did you open the hood, trunck, doors, etc.? I didn't see many (other than those required) at NHMS over memorial day...

Raymond

[JeffYoung]

Hoods and trunks are always open on Team Stinking Turd's race cars.

[lateapex911]

I didn't open my hood at impound...just didn't occur to me. But, I paddock with most of the guys in my class, and they know my car better than I do probably. If anybody wants the hood up, all they have to do is ask.

Tech DID have us leave our cars in impound, and sent us all to get our shop manuals. (A long walk for some) That's cool and all, but not exactly ideal. For us crewless guys, taking pressures didn't happen. (MY fault, I'll handle that kind of request differently next time)

Overall, I was glad to see tech calling for checks of things.

[seckerich]

Just remember Jake, tech has to check 2 items on all classes per weekend for compliance. Shop manual was a gimme.

[Bill Miller]

You guys look like you're having a good time here. Back to the pool! :happy204:

[ddewhurst]

Bill, I'm finding that this site hardly warrents a look any more.

[gran racing]

No one is forcing you to. :rolleyes:

[Knestis]

I personally kind of miss the sprawling philosophical arguments that we used to have but in truth, I think that things have settled down because we've fixed a few things. We've still got some issues (both in the category and this community, because they are NOT the same thing) but overall, the situation is better than it was a few years ago.

K

[Catch22]

Now I remember why I stopped coming here.

The only thing worse is watching a bunch of autocrossers argue about how much remaining undercoating is legal on a 20 year old Civic.

Scott, who welcomes anyone to look at anything they want on his car. Go 'head.