Reforming SCCA Categories/Licensing

[jjjanos]

Assume: SCCA has given you the job of a top-down review of the Club Racing program. You have been told that the following are non-negotiable and must be included:

1. The Runoffs (tm)/A single national championship event must exist.
2. Drivers must qualify, via on-track performance, for an invitation to the Runoffs.

Everything beyond that is at your discretion.

Your mission statement is to create a Club Racing program that
A. Restores relevancy to the Runoffs
B. Increase total participation - spectators, crew, drivers, volunteers - in Club Racing.
C. Insure the solvency of SCCA.

Solve....

[JeffYoung]

If you choose to go in the cave with the strange hissing noises and the faint golden glow, turn to page 34!

If you climb in the rocket and head to Pluto, turn to page 67!

If you grab the girls and swing across the canyon on the vine, turn to page 15!

Choose your own adventure!

Sorry man, couldn't resist.

[tnord]

I grab the girls for sure.

[gran racing]

You're posing a very, very lenghty disucssion that is complicated to answer, the majority of us don't have enough information on, the questions are vague, and so on. There's a reason why we have a national staff who work on these full-time. :) How about this, why don't you post your opinion for your own question?

Also, what's your name, where abouts are you located, and what do you drive?

[mom'sZ]

Maybe to broad a subject. I don't know much about the open wheel classes. Are they having problems similar to the tin top classes? To many classes? Let's look at what we know. Spec miata is very popular. But it's low buck aspect has disappeared. Spec racer ford is also very popular right? Both spec classes, seems maybe guys want the car taken out of the equation. Isn't there an open wheel class like Fscca?
I think the problem lies in trying to class many models/makes against each other and have everybody feel that it is fair. Does IT work because it is a process?
When I look at a Production car, they look pretty far removed from a production based car. Rather then completely starting over, I'd look at keeping certain aspects of car prep in check. Say the stock unibody tub. A prod/IT hybrid class where the stock unibody tub must remain intact but full cage is allowed to stiffen the chassis enough to run slicks. Lexan windows and composite panels allow further weight reduction. Elimination of non race related stock pieces like washer bottles. Non stock suspension but no altered pick up points. The further weight reduction would give greater latitude in classing the cars with an IT 'process'. No worries about a car not being able to make wieght. Production based trannies only but gear ratios are open. Basically IT on steriods but no crazy engine mods. Compression can be bumped up 1.5 instead of .5, lift can be raised so many thousands ect.
Then how about a bomber class. Claim rule or whatever. Bolt in cage, race seat and belts only. List of stuff that must be removed, no other mods allowed. Car can be claimed less the saftey equipment for x amount.

[JoshS]

Also, what's your name, where abouts are you located, and what do you drive?
I was wondering the same from the other thread, so I did a little sleuthing. Didn't take long. Answers available in this thread. (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23601)

[jjjanos]

You're posing a very, very lenghty disucssion that is complicated to answer, the majority of us don't have enough information on, the questions are vague, and so on. There's a reason why we have a national staff who work on these full-time. :) How about this, why don't you post your opinion for your own question?

Also, what's your name, where abouts are you located, and what do you drive?

Lengthy discussion? Complicated to answer?
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23946

17 pages, a good chunk of which is what's wrong with the National program. Lots of side discussions about "fixing" National Racing as part of or instead of making IT part of the Nationals program.

National staff? You mean the same folks who enabled the National program into its mess? We're the experts on what we want from the program. We're the ones that will be asked the questions and if we aren't, lord help whatever they develop on their own.

Name: Jeff
Located: NEDIV
Driver: ITB Crx

Problem: Most popular class isn't integrated. Us versus them mentality. Simply adding IT to the mix still leaves alot of classes at the Runoffs that are so thin as to be embarrassing.

Plan: Take the hit now for growth in the future.

One type of race: SCCA. You only score points for beating competition. Race alone? No points. Points are paid upto 10th place, but only if you finish higher than a car that turned a wheel during the weekend. You can't pick a dead class in a small division and default your way into the Runoffs.

Each Division decides how many events pays points subject to equal representation for its tracks. No track can hold more than 2 points paying events. A region can waive a track's right to host a points event (i.e Waterford since it's too small). You can count 2 out of division races. NEDIV/SEDIV split into NEDIV/MAtlDiv/SEDIV. MAtlDiv gets Charlotte, VIR, Summit, NJMP, Beaver. NorPac splits into NorCal and RainForest. Let's try to put an end to monster tows to simply qualify.

Novice Licences: You run your rookie stripes for 12 months or 8 race weekends, whichever comes first. Novices are eligible to earn points towards the Runoffs.

Drivers on probation: Required to run letters BAH on both sides of car and back to alert flaggers that this driver is on probation and to let other drivers know this is a bad boy.

Races are 35 minutes long or 40 miles, whichever comes first.

Dump the DOT-requirement on tires. The DOT classes are basically running slicks anyway.

Open-Wheel: V.Fast/Fast, middle, slow. FA/FC/FF/FV
Sports-racers: SRF, SR1 - combines S2,CSR,DSR.
IT becomes Touring: A,B,C,D,E,F with slowest class A. ITC = A, ITB =B, ITA = C, ITS = D, ITE = ITR, ITF = Cars too fast for ITR and the types of cars which would run in such current classes as T1, TCC, etc. but prepared to Improved Touring standards. Basically, a home for folks with too much money. If something faster comes along, it becomes TG. Touring is open to 5-year through 40-year old cars.
Spec Miata:
Showroom Stock: A, B,C,D - Current model year cars through 5 years old. Again, A is slowest. Cars must be mass-produced, with minimum production numbers set for each model year, for the North American Market. All options must be available, at the dealer, to the general public. (SSC = A, SSB = B, T2 = C, T1 = D)
Super Touring: A, B, C, D, E, F with A slowest. No tube frames. Touring (now-IT) rules allowing limited modifications to be determined by technicians. This allows those who want to tinker to do so. Adjusts to a car's allowed modifications during the first 3 years it is listed. No car may be delisted until it has been listed for 5 years. If a car becomes a class killer, it gets to run for 5 years. After that, the only option is to ban it.
GT: A, B, C, D, E No tube frames. What ever you can fit in the unibody, you can run. Classification is similar to NASAs points sytem. You want to mount a big fugly wing on the car, you get to do that too.

SRFs/SR can be combined with each other and open-wheel.

28 classes. All go to the big show, provided that at least 25 entries are received for that class. Classes are subject to combination, at promoter discretion. Any class subject to termination if it fails to meet minimum total participation count for ALL events. (Kill point TBD).

Damn, make that 29. Forgot about Formula Mazda and it seems to be doing OK. Maximum number of races at the Big Show: 30, hard and fast.

If SCCA decides a new class/category is desirable (probably because some Region thought of it already), then it may be added, but it cannot bump an established class until it ranks in the top 50% in terms of overall car counts for races.

And yes, IT is "national".

It's the studs. The drywall, wiring, plumbing and what not.

[jjjanos]

And if 29 is too many classes, kill the last 5 to get it down to 24.

[JoshS]

Open-Wheel: V.Fast/Fast, middle, slow. FA/FC/FF/FV
Sports-racers: SRF, SR1 - combines S2,CSR,DSR.
IT becomes Touring: A,B,C,D,E,F with slowest class A. ITC = A, ITB =B, ITA = C, ITS = D, ITE = ITR, ITF = Cars too fast for ITR and the types of cars which would run in such current classes as T1, TCC, etc. but prepared to Improved Touring standards. Basically, a home for folks with too much money. If something faster comes along, it becomes TG. Touring is open to 5-year through 40-year old cars.
Spec Miata:
Showroom Stock: A, B,C,D - Current model year cars through 5 years old. Again, A is slowest. Cars must be mass-produced, with minimum production numbers set for each model year, for the North American Market. All options must be available, at the dealer, to the general public. (SSC = A, SSB = B, T2 = C, T1 = D)
Super Touring: A, B, C, D, E, F with A slowest. No tube frames. Touring (now-IT) rules allowing limited modifications to be determined by technicians. This allows those who want to tinker to do so. Adjusts to a car's allowed modifications during the first 3 years it is listed. No car may be delisted until it has been listed for 5 years. If a car becomes a class killer, it gets to run for 5 years. After that, the only option is to ban it.
GT: A, B, C, D, E No tube frames. What ever you can fit in the unibody, you can run. Classification is similar to NASAs points sytem. You want to mount a big fugly wing on the car, you get to do that too.

Generally, the whole plan looks pretty good to me. But I just want to clarify the thoughts:

This ST thing confuses me. It's just T with competition adjustments? And cars that end up as overdogs wouldn't need to be "banned," they'd just be delisted from ST, but they could still race in GT, as I understand it. That sounds better than "ban." :-)

What happens to the tube-frame cars currently racing? No home in SCCA?

[jjjanos]

Generally, the whole plan looks pretty good to me. But I just want to clarify the thoughts:

This ST thing confuses me. It's just T with competition adjustments? And cars that end up as overdogs wouldn't need to be "banned," they'd just be delisted from ST, but they could still race in GT, as I understand it. That sounds better than "ban." :-)

What happens to the tube-frame cars currently racing? No home in SCCA?

You are correct. I should have said, delisted from ST or even bump-em up a class.

I would prefer that ST did not have specific-competition adjustments within that 5-year window (meaning, you had best be sure you want it, because if the STAC makes a mistake, they are stuck with it forever or have to delist the car.) but have across the board change for everybody. I prefer something along the lines of brakes are free. You may fit any rotor whose diamater is the same as stock on your car. Let guys who want to tinker, tinker and relieve that pressure on IT.

Looking at car counts, GT1 survives, for now. It's ranked #14. The rest of the GT classes aren't cutting it car count-wise. They could be grandfathered in at first to let 'em sink or swim, but that 30 class maximum and the minimum attendance number will doom them. According to the numbers Dave posted for us (thanks Dave), there were 167 total GTL entries in ALL of SCCA last year. 124 GT3 entries and 249 GT2 entries. GT2 might survive, but I think the other categories will do them in.

[cooleyjb]

jjjanos

How do you account for the fact that you put 6 of the 10 most popular current national classes into one grouping. SM gets it's own group, but SRF which has fairly similar numbers nationally gets lumped in with 3 other classes, 2 of which are in the top half of current national participation.

Going with numbers on this sheet.

http://www.scca.com/documents/Club_Events/2008%20National%20Participation%20MASTER.pdf

Or are you just looking at classing independant of race groups.

[gran racing]

You mean the same folks who enabled the National program into its mess? We're the experts on what we want from the program. We're the ones that will be asked the questions and if we aren't, lord help whatever they develop on their own.

I do find this comical while at the same time annoying. While I might not agree with every decision the national office has made, they do care about what we want for our club. I've had the pleasure of speaking and working with several people here, and have absolutely nothing but positive things to say about them. They are all VERY accessible, have their e-mail addresses and phone numbers posted for us to contact them. And yes, they do listen and take seriously what we have to say.

Whether good or bad, the majority of people do not like major changes. In a real SCCA world situation, your recommendations just blew apart the item B mission you stated. In addition to having a significant number of club racing participants up in arms, you've also pissed off regions.

[jjjanos]

Or are you just looking at classing independant of race groups.

Bingo. FA/FC/FM/FF/FV are classes in the open-wheel category.

[jjjanos]

I do find this comical while at the same time annoying. While I might not agree with every decision the national office has made, they do care about what we want for our club. I've had the pleasure of speaking and working with several people here, and have absolutely nothing but positive things to say about them. They are all VERY accessible, have their e-mail addresses and phone numbers posted for us to contact them. And yes, they do listen and take seriously what we have to say.

Dave,

Never said they didn't care. I said they enabled. A mother cares about and loves her junkie son as she's handing him $50 to go buy "food." It's their job to protect the inmates from themselves by convincing us that what we want is going to end up bad. Or they agreed with the changes.

They being the collection of past BoDs and CRBs.


Whether good or bad, the majority of people do not like major changes. In a real SCCA world situation, your recommendations just blew apart the item B mission you stated. In addition to having a significant number of club racing participants up in arms, you've also pissed off regions.

Pissed off the regions? How so? Enlight. They're free to add regional classes and I doubt they'll care if the divisions get shuffled. Cooperate with New England or NCR, same/same to me.

Most, if not all of those classes are dead men walking the moment IT goes National. Lucifer has fallen, man and the Green Star people are out looking for GP and GT3 cars. See the attached.

ITR is only 100 cars behind GP, in its first year. It will be in the top 24. The prod ranks were filled with limited prep cars that AREN'T going into prod anymore when you add IT, so knock a conservative 10% off their numbers and add to IT. HP is gone baby.

Beyond a doubt, somebody is going to pay for reform and there are going to be short-term losses. The question is whether they translate into long-term growth. It's pretty clear that throwing more classes into the pot isn't working. Running antiques isn't working. Something else has to be done because the number of folks who get their rocks off watching 50+ year old cars circulate is getting smaller and older and smaller and smaller....

You offer something.

[JamesB]

Over and over again it all comes back that some of you want to have IT in the national ranks. Personally if that happens I would look to see whats next for regional only racing. I might have the money to burn to get towards the local IT front runners, but you open the flood gates and in 2-3 years I would never be more then a mid pack schlep on my budget and the fun goes away as everyone with the cash will come out and pounce all over you.

Do I believe the national classes need cleaning up? I do, do I believe that it will be easy? Heck no. We are non profit membership based community and some members will just not let go of classes. I think with Touring that SS* should be gone, Touring replaces it in my view and there you have 2 classes that can get shuffled around.

[trhoppe]

We talked about this exact issue this weekend. What we came up with was.....

1) Eliminate the distinction between Regional and National, its all Club Racing.
2) Create coefficients for events. Example: ARRC, June Sprints, Oak Tree National, Mid Oh Fest are all worth 1.5x points. Every current "National" is worth 1x points, and all the current "Regionals" are worth 0.5x points.
3) EVERYONE can race at every event. Just like today.
4) 6 events, with a max of 2 1.5ers count toward your season points.
5) The top finisher in the points for each division (SARRC, MARRS) etc becomes the "season division points champion"
6) The top 10 points finishers for each class for each class get an invite to the runoffs. At that time the can decide "should I go for the runoffs and try to become national champion, or try to become the divisional champion"
7) The top 10 that decide, go to the runoffs and compete for national champion
8) The next 10 can fight it at at the regional race for regional champion. (SIC, NARRC Runoffs) etc

This keeps the current race structure but makes everyone OH SO MUCH easier, better, smarter, and less confusing.

You will have huge car fields at the 1.5 events with lots of competition, and the smaller guys can go play at the 0.5 point events.

Ding, done

-Tom

[JeffYoung]

Reasonable.

[RacerBill]

Tom: Do you intend to keep the lengths of the races at the 1.5, 1 and .5 points levels the same, or different as we have today?

[Ron Earp]

I sort of like that Tom, 1,2,3 really make sense.

[trhoppe]

Tom: Do you intend to keep the lengths of the races at the 1.5, 1 and .5 points levels the same, or different as we have today? Its going to be just like it is today. The more important races have more competition and are longer, etc.

-Tom