Does anyone cheat?

[73itb]

I am curious to see how many IT'ers out there are not completely playing by the rules. I figure the Miata guys are probally following the books pretty tightly. I would like to know what percentage of the NeDiv IT has squeezed some modifications onto their cars that may not pass tech. If so, what is the most popular cheat? A quick walk around A paddock at LRP would suggest iillegal gnition mods. Just curious, not pointing any fingers...Matt

[73itb]

I sure hope no cars from the other regions come race with us with illegal modifications. You know who you are. If you narc on me, I will narc on you. Just Kidding, but seriously, the NeDiv is a gruop of gentlemen racers. Lets continue this tradition. P.S. I thought that car only had disc brakes up front.....Matt

[Ron Earp]

Matt, spit it out - what are you trying to say? You've seen people cheating in the NE? You want them to stop? you want them to agree to let you and others "all cheat together"?

[gran racing]

Yeah Matt, I'm curious what you're getting and don't understand the post. When talking about gentleman racers, typically that means people will let items slide. Especially as someone gets closer to the front, people will not look the other way. Don't have a working horn or washer bottle, no, I won't file an official protest. Something else? Don't look shocked when getting a call from the stewards. If someone wants rules to be changed, send a request to the ITAC.

On the other side if you know someone has illegal parts, it's our responsibility to self-police our fields. Talk to the driver about the parts (maybe they have no clue, which doesn't mean it's right), and/or file a protest.

All this is said as one of many NER ITB drivers who work very hard at becoming a good driver, and building a fast and legal racecar.

[Knestis]

The only thing that I know of on the Golf that's currently not legal (and it may be solved by now) is that we don't have the timing belt pulley guards on it. There are a couple of close-call items: The door wiring harnesses aren't installed correctly (they're stuffed in the rear quarter panels); and the front track on one side is too close for comfort to being too wide with the current spacers (blame the most recent fender replacement and not double checking until after Andy pointed out that Beran had questioned it at the ARRC).

I'm picky about this stuff, since I've historically been pretty vocal about cheating and rules creep so I know I'm a high profile target. :) If you see something wrong with my car, I'd really appreciate you saying something so it can be fixed.

Do other people cheat? Yeah, I have no question. I think gear ratios are a common cheat in VWs. There are just too many of them, it's too easy to do, it makes a big difference, and it's expensive to call someone on it.

K

[JeffYoung]

I guess the turbine is probably pushing the limit of the rules.

My car is actually a 3/4 replica of a TR8. Crash repairs, ya know?

I installed a big 48" sucker fan in the floorboard of the car for downforce. I mean driver comfort.

Is my trunk monkey legal? It doesn't say you can, but then again, it says nothing about mammals in the car and we do allow a driver.

Speed Racer had oil slicks. So do I. I just don't have steering wheel control over them. THey do it on their own. Legal?

I may install a navigation system. Thoughts?

[erlrich]

Hasn't anyone told you yet - EVERYONE in IT cheats!!!

[lateapex911]

Hasn't anyone told you yet - EVERYONE in IT cheats!!!

He's kidding.

But..that said, there certainly are cheaters out there, and it doesn't take too long to find them. heck, I've heard that certain areas have agreements to allow certain things.

I'm with Kirk and Dave..you see something on my car, let me know. I'm not looking to take even a 10th place finish if it's not legit.

[Ron Earp]

I'm with Kirk and Dave..you see something on my car, let me know. I'm not looking to take even a 10th place finish if it's not legit.

11th or greater is okay isn't it? I cheat like a mo fo and figured as long as I wasn't in the top 10 it was cool. :blink:

[gran racing]

Not okay but there's less motivation to protest someone. The process isn't quick and easy in the majority of cases, is stressful probably even more so on the protestor's side, and often isn't thought of (key word, though versus truly isn't) worth it in many circumstances.

[Ron Earp]

I'm just kidding of course.

So Matt, what is the reason for the post? See something illegal in the paddock you want to call out?

[dj10]

I am curious to see how many IT'ers out there are not completely playing by the rules. I figure the Miata guys are probally following the books pretty tightly. I would like to know what percentage of the NeDiv IT has squeezed some modifications onto their cars that may not pass tech. If so, what is the most popular cheat? A quick walk around A paddock at LRP would suggest iillegal gnition mods. Just curious, not pointing any fingers...Matt

Matt, just walk around and see how many cars have short shifters, not a big deal. Don't worry about cheaters just be a better person and don't cheat yourself. Get good at driving and beat the cheaters by your skill.

[Flyin' MacLean]

The guys who've beaten me on track are all cheating :p

[JLawton]

Matt,

Be carefull about generalizations, you are going to offend people. Feel free to come right out and tell us what the real issue is.............

[Ron Earp]

The guys who've beaten me on track are all cheating :p

You too????? That is exactly what is happening down here in the Southeast!!!!

[erlrich]

The guys who've beaten me on track are all cheating :p
Exactly - that why I said everyone is cheating :p

[JeffYoung]

Dude, you are cheating! You have a truck motor in that car!

[Ron Earp]

Dude, you are cheating! You have a truck motor in that car!

So do you. Cheater!

[JeffYoung]

Mine is a high performance, F1 winning design. Back off dude! That thing the size of a house in your car has got to have way too many gerbils in it.

[IPRESS]

Flyin,
We weren't cheating in that 1.6 were we?:D It was so fast I felt like it!:eclipsee_steering:

[erlrich]

Dude, you are cheating! You have a truck motor in that car!
Yeah, but it was a slow truck, so nobody cares :D

[shwah]

A quick walk around A paddock at LRP would suggest iillegal gnition mods.
Heck I'd just like to know what you think an illegal ignition mod is.

[Tkczecheredflag]

When we ran the CRX in "C" - We arrived the night before the race, got set up, and removed the Doge Hemi truck body off the frame, placing the CRX shell in it's place. I am really suprised no one noticed - I will try to post an old picture that will demonstrate what I am saying - Will do so when I get back from Ohio tomorrow.

Seriuosly - Are we missing the obvious? Is Matt really pointing the finger at the Miata's? Is that his "real play"on this post? Matt enlighten us.

Gotta go - This morning breakfast sepcial at the Fairfield Inn in Srpingfield, Ohio is Miata Kool Aid - The line is forming as we speak.:D

[Andy Bettencourt]

Actually, Matt seems to say the Miata guys (SM) are probably the most legal...I might disagree - but that is of no issue to him as he is an ITB guy.

I am curious to understand his issue as well. Come on Matt- spill it!

[73itb]

I figured to try and ruffle a buddies feathers by posting. He is very legal but I like to bug him. I in no way accuse anyone of cheating....Matt

[Tkczecheredflag]

http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/05/narrc/images/DSC_0575.jpgThe CRX on the Hemi Frame Picture

[tom_sprecher]

I really don't know. I bought my car used and have no idea what came on a stock car so if some vestigial street items were removed I really wouldn't know.

My headlights and turn signals don't work. Does that count? I also may be missing that all important washer bottle. Does that count?

If it does and I get protested I won't fight it and you can have that $4 chunck of wood if I ever get to the other end of the field. Afterwards, I'll probably look into some other sanctioning bodies to see what they have to offer and see if they need a helping hand because I really don't need the hassle. I refuse to spend my time scouring junk yards and paying money I don't have for chicken $hit I don't need.

I understand the need to restrain rules creep and how beneficial a stable rule set can be. On the other handle those that keep the rules must understand the realities of racing 15-30 year old cars on a low budget. I would hope the IT founders had that intent on thier minds at the time of inception and if, not should have.

[924Guy]

I don't seem to recall seeing anything in the rules book about all that crap having to WORK. Sure, you've gotta have a washer bottle, and horns, etc... so what if a wire's broken?

Yes, I've got all that crap, no, I don't know if it works, I do know my headlight motor doesn't, but it's still there, the useless piece of ballast. So are my headlights, even though you can't see them.

[tom_sprecher]

The items mentioned in my post do not work because there may be some missing pieces. At my level and type of racing I can not be concerned with it. Others may vary but I really don't care.

My position would change if someone shows up with engine or suspension mods that were a blatant violation of the rules and provide an unfair competition advantage. But stock items that serve no purpose other that to be there for the ride and have to be replaced should they be destroyed in a wreck because someone believes that is what is best for the category, I refuse to search for, purchase and add to my car. If other drivers and the rule makers can not acknowledge and accept my perspective then I can not reciprocate.

And if I get a hassle I’ll spend my time and money elsewhere. Like Sam Walton once said, “There is only one boss – the customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, by spending his money somewhere else.” To often people ignore this little piece of advice until it is too late.

[wcmcarlos]

It goes back to an earlier post,, I am cheating very poorly , because I ran 21st, so I know everyone else is doing a much better job of cheating than me.
One wise a$$ even called me a "rolling chicane" what does that mean?
He was driving a Miata, so he must be smarter than me.

[Butch Kummer]

As I suspect occurs in all classes/categories, we have the same type of constant discussion in GTA as well. One guy even went so far as to post that, in his twenty years of circle track racing, he's figured out there are two types of racer - cheaters and losers! The guys at the back invariably complain about the guys at the front cheating - did I mention this guy is generally toward the rearmost portion of the grid?

My standard answer to those types of statements is, "If you plan to run at the back then run whatever you want because nobody cares. If you plan to run at the front, however, you'd better damn sure be legal!"

Another buddy is Chief of Tech for one of the semi-pro road racing series, and they do regular inspections of the top three finishers plus a random check of others throughout the 30+ car field. He says the guys at the front are spot on the limit of the rules while most infractions they find are on those randomly chosen from the mid-pack back. That is supported by the recent GRM article (which I thought was very good) on "Pros vs. Shmoes". That article was dealing with Spec Miatas, but could well have been written about ANY class in ANY form of racing.

And when people think I'm cheating, I smile and take it as a compliment. It also means I've got them where I want them - thinking about MY car rather than trying to figure out how to improve THEIR car and driving.

[dj10]

As I suspect occurs in all classes/categories, we have the same type of constant discussion in GTA as well. One guy even went so far as to post that, in his twenty years of circle track racing, he's figured out there are two types of racer - cheaters and losers! The guys at the back invariably complain about the guys at the front cheating - did I mention this guy is generally toward the rearmost portion of the grid?

My standard answer to those types of statements is, "If you plan to run at the back then run whatever you want because nobody cares. If you plan to run at the front, however, you'd better damn sure be legal!"

Another buddy is Chief of Tech for one of the semi-pro road racing series, and they do regular inspections of the top three finishers plus a random check of others throughout the 30+ car field. He says the guys at the front are spot on the limit of the rules while most infractions they find are on those randomly chosen from the mid-pack back. That is supported by the recent GRM article (which I thought was very good) on "Pros vs. Shmoes". That article was dealing with Spec Miatas, but could well have been written about ANY class in ANY form of racing.

And when people think I'm cheating, I smile and take it as a compliment. It also means I've got them where I want them - thinking about MY car rather than trying to figure out how to improve THEIR car and driving.

Excellent Post Butch!:023:

[lateapex911]

But stock items that serve no purpose other that to be there for the ride and have to be replaced should they be destroyed in a wreck because someone believes that is what is best for the category, I refuse to search for, purchase and add to my car. .

Tom, you are probably talking about things like trun signal reflectors that get broken and only half is remaining in the signal bucket, but....

....that statement could apply to other things, like oh, say, the headlight motors and linkages on our cars. Sure, I've replaced them on my car due to issues, and they aren't as light as air. I bet there's 10 pounds of stuff under there ..all hanging almost 2 feet in front of the front axle. I'd be pretty happy to take that weight out from where it's creating an even higher moment and put it where I actually need it.

I tend to try to err on the conservative side, because I look at examples like that, and I think that one is over the line. But where IS the line? It's different for everyone, and I understand that. What's "reasonable" to me isn't to another. So I try to err on the "more than reasonable" side, LOL.

[lateapex911]

Excellent Post Butch!:023:
X eleventy billion...

[tom_sprecher]

...like oh, say, the headlight motors and linkages on our cars...
Was I that obvious or are you that good? ;)

If and when I get to a position in the field that people start protesting me for the opposite of my more typical being too damn slow I'll add back, err, I mean, source, acquire and replace the items in question (the above plus headlamps, buckets, springs, adjusters, turn signal lamp reflectors, etc., ad nauseum) Until then, why should I risk destroying parts I might or might not have if you know what I mean?

If forced, it will only add to the "cons" column and I may say have to say enough. I'm not too worried about it as I have had the same discussion with other IT7 drivers down here and we all kinda feel the same. To an extent, of course.

Except for that Ricky Thompson guy. I just know he's cheating like a mofo. :D

Just kiddin' buddy. Hope to see you and Gary at CMP for the Monster.

[dickita15]

Tom,
I can certainly respect where you are coming from. When I bought my first car I eventually learned about some things that were not legal, even a illegal carb linkage and I admit I raced it that way for a couple of years. I think everything is legal now but when I was not beating anyone why let that keep me home.

[lateapex911]

Tom,
..... but when I was not beating anyone why let that keep me home.

Ah, but times have changed Dick, you have to be clean now that you've upped the game and are at the front!

[JeffYoung]

My favorite cheat is pretty cool. I take a cucumber, medium to large size, and wrap it in aluminum foil. I stuff that baby in the old Sparco, and walla! I appear to have an armadillo in my trousers.

[gran racing]

Butch, I agree with what you said except that people towards the back don't care if others are cheating. When in ITA, I was mid pack at best, usually more towards the rear of the pack. I still felt that people should beat me because they were a better driver or at least because they had a better prepped car than I did. Missing indicator, or other minor things - true, I didn't care about that and never felt that was what was beating me. Cams, different pistons, ect. I still cared.

Tom, would you agree that there is a point cars should have certain items? I cracked my windshield and noticed how many circle track guys use some type of wire for their windshields since they break often. I've raced with guys who put on a big ole steel rear bumper since the OEM was too much to replace and this one would last. What Jake's getting at is somewhere I'm sure you have a line where you wouldn't consider things acceptable. Lexan side windows? Maybe a non-OEM style hood, one that happens to be much lighter?

Butch does have a valid point where people will tend to draw that line in different places the further closer to the pack the car is.

[tom_sprecher]

...I take a cucumber, medium to large size, and wrap it in aluminum foil...

I think for safety reasons your cucumber should be heat shielded, do not consider that cheating, would never file a protest against you and don't want to know when your doing it. :D

[dickita15]

My favorite cheat is pretty cool. I take a cucumber, medium to large size, and wrap it in aluminum foil. I stuff that baby in the old Sparco, and walla! I appear to have an armadillo in my trousers.

Thanks a lot Jeff, now I need to get that image out of my head. :birra:

[924Guy]

Ah, but times have changed Dick, you have to be clean now that you've upped the game and are at the front!

And... we've upped our game, now you up yours! :026:

[lateapex911]

My favorite cheat is pretty cool. I take a cucumber, medium to large size, and wrap it in aluminum foil. I stuff that baby in the old Sparco, and walla! I appear to have an armadillo in my trousers.

Umm, so, Jeff, you find that the legal groupies dig .....armadillos?

(Ron warned me about you, LOL)

[Butch Kummer]

David, you are absolutely correct - the guys farther back do care if someone they're racing with is cheating or not. When I said/wrote you can run what you want if you plan to run "at the back", I meant DFL! :cool:

That said, we DO have a responsibility to make sure folks running our class (whatever that may be) are aware they should be legal. As the unofficial "Associate Pastor of the First Church of GTA", I'm often approached by guys saying, "So-and-so is cheating their ass off. What are YOU going to do about it?" Obviously people are concerned about folks taking liberties with the rules regardless of where in the pack they're racing, and having folks po'd about other guys cheating (and feeling they need to cheat themselves to keep up) is bad for the sport. After thinking about it for quite awhile, I figured out my response:

"If you think so-and-so is cheating, tell me what rule(s) you believe they're breaking. I'm willing to help you resolve the situation, but make sure you're willing to file an official protest before you come talk to me."

[RSTPerformance]

Matt-

It the Northeast ITB ranks I watch closely and I think most try to be as legal as possible. Someone once questioned the hight of our front spoilers on one of the Audi's... yup it had sagged so we got out the saw and cut it. If you see anything on our cars please let us know, we will be glad to defend the item or change it ASAP.

Raymond "As a North Easter, I am offended by Matt" Blethen