IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

[Knestis]

So, here's what I think might happen if IT were to "go National." I'm going to use a completely different set of assumptions than Jake - that NOTHING else changes, except that the IT classes get added to the National list and there's some process in place to allow the best-subscribed classes to qualify for the RubOffs (including IT). Problem is, YOU need to decide if you think they are "good" or "bad," based on your priorities and values:

** Some current Regional drivers with competitive streaks will step up and start doing Nationals

** Some of those will make the extra effort in an attempt to qualify for the RubOffs

** Enough will do so AND make the trek to the National championships that the IT classes will be better subscribed than some of the "legacy" classes

** Many current Regional drivers will decide to continue doing exactly what they have

** Some National drivers currently in other classes will make the switch to IT cars

** Those drivers, along with the most dedicated Regional switchers, will raise the quality of preparation, testing, and tuning among the cream of the IT cars in the US.

** Some of those top-shelf driver/car combinations will find their way to Regional events, shifting the balance of power enough that the drivers who have stuck with Regional programs will face additional competition

** As preparation levels at the front of the grids increases, the middle of the pack will follow, with performance required to finish at any given place increasing marginally

** IT grid sizes at Regionals will decrease slightly in the short term, then increase consistently as popularity and the lure of National status convinces racers to switch from other Regional classes

** Increased competitive pressures will increase the relative cost of maintaining any pre-National level of competitiveness, the greatest increases being felt in the regions with traditionally low IT participation numbers but OK National programs

** Pro shops will begin to pay more attention to IT cars (e.g., BSI might revisit the logic of getting out of the VW business for Miatas), increasing the availability of go-fast parts, broadening the knowledge base, and increasing competition - all of which should serve to decrease the cost associated with making particular improvements to IT cars

** Increased competitive urges will increase the frequency of protests, first at National events, then increasingly at the front of the grid in Regionals

** Increased attention from the scrutineers will create trickle-down motivation for drivers of IT cars in both programs, and at all levels of preparation, to pay more attention to legality - correcting issues that might historically have been ignored

** Conversely, additional competitive pressure - particularly in the short run - will increase the chance that a small number of IT competitors (perhaps most likely new ones) will be tempted to push the limits and cheat

** It will take some time before these previous two forces stabilize, and a cheating equilibrium is achieved but the net result is that IT cars will be less illegal, particularly at the front of the grid

** There will inevitably be disagreements that require appeals to resolve, which will establish and clarify the operational interpretations of the ITCS

** Some members (including tech inspectors and stewards, and even board members, in addition to drivers) will desire additional "clarification" of written rules, as a result of these disagreements

** Some rules will be corrected, following recommendation by the ITAC and action by the boards, where existing language is found to be unclear or conflicting

** In other cases (few initially but increasingly more as time goes by) the ITAC will recommend no changes to the rules, recognizing that interpretation and enforcement are beyond their purview

** The CRB will generally support and implement ITAC recommendations, barring any really radical realignment of either body

** There exists a chance that, if substantial turnover in either body were to occur, prevailing sentiments and first principles might change enough that those bodies might disagree

** Substantial conflict might result, causing unforeseen outcomes and discontent among IT entrants

** Some manufacturers, tire makers, and aftermarket parts suppliers will offer contingency prizes to IT cars, where they were not previously available - some simply because IT is now National (e.g., VW that already offers a sweeter deal to Nat'l entrants than Reg'l ones), but others because of the attractiveness (popularity and competitiveness) of IT

** A very small number will think that their commitment to contingency or other awards or sponsorship programs should afford them some special consideration in the rules, and will make requests for rules changes favorable to their positions, through the approved rule change process

** The ITAC will, for the foreseeable future, continue business as usual and will reject requests that are inconsistent with the current first principles of the category, that have made it as healthy as it is today

** In very rare instances, someone with a special interest (member/entrant, manufacturer representative, etc.) will think that they can use back-room connections to leverage rules changes in their favor

** Should this happen, the ITAC and IT entrants will mobilize to rise up against any individual promulgating this kind of behavior - the used food will hit the rotational air moving devices

** The RubOffs will be a better show, at least for a couple of days, as IT races bring out larger, deeper, more competitive fields than many existing classes
** Participation in several legacy National classes will decrease enough to make them weaker and even more vulnerable than they already are, hastening their demise

** Increased standards and expectations of levels of participation and competition will skew the curve enough that even if some National classes don't shrink, they will appear smaller by comparison

** Successes in the National program of IT-as-currently-constituted will influence other category committees and/or the Club Racing office to consider extending the formula to existing or replacement new categories, taking what is right about IT and increasing speed and tinkering potential through additional allowances

** Similarly, there is a small chance that IT rules will be extended (perhaps with some modifications) to a series like the World Challenge Touring series, pulling back the rules to a more restricted level

** This would further increase competitive pressures down through the category to National and Regional levels, if only to a small degree

** Some existing IT drivers would be unhappy enough about losing their relative competitive positions that they will decide to do something else

** Some will initially migrate to the smaller ponds of Production racing, modifying their existing IT cars to "move up" a category - they will face the harder decision eventually of whether to continue with that category when it either peters out or is dramatically changed under the guidance of its advisory committee and the boards

** Others will leave SCCA for NASA or other racing opportunities where they can be relatively more competitive for the same commitment

** Others will be unhappy emough about increased competition that they will choose to not worry about competition at all, moving instead to HPDE or TT type events

** Some drivers will quit IT blaming various changes, when in fact they would have been lost to existing forces influencing turnover anyway - primarily financial overextension - realizing that it's easier to blame [insert someone/something here] rather than their bad decision making for their departure

** Prices of used IT cars would increase with demand, regardless of how far the IT preparation rules are extended

** This would benefit those selling cars but increase this barrier to entry for new IT entrants

** Increase popularity and competitiveness will increase the potential for rough driving at the front of the grids, with the influence propagating gradually down through the field

** Competitors and stewards will be forced to deal with instances of this type of thing - at least initially - until a consensus level of acceptance is achieved

** At this point, IT ruffians will begin to suffer consequences for their actions, and the initial blip in on-track hooliganism will level out

** Increased popularity of and expectations for IT classes would create pressures on the weakest of those classes (ITC, most notably) to include newer cars

** Some scheme would be developed to accomplish this (e.g., "limited preparation" ITC)

** These pressures would not exist to the same degree in well-subscribed classes

** Similarly, it wouldn't take long for drivers wanting to experience higher levels of performance to push for another class above ITR - perhaps to accommodate AWD and/or turbo cars, in addition to those that are simply too powerful for the current R index

** R will have grown enough to convince the ITAC that the world is ready for another, faster class - they would recommend it to the CRB and it would be approved

** There is a small chance that this new class might oust the current WCGT class, creating a semi-pro series

** There is also a small chance that the performance level of these cars would be great enough to substantially increase the chance that someone would be critically hurt or killed in an on-track incident

** Were this to come about, additional pressure to increase the safety of IT cars (starting with the fastest class[es] perhaps) would come to bear (e.g., additional cage stiffening, crushable structures, new driver impact protection such as leg panels)

I figure I've left something out but I really want another beer and they are all the way downstairs... :)

K

EDIT for spaciness.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am now blind.

[Knestis]

I am now blind.

Your mother warned you about that.

K

[jjjanos]

I am now blind.

Step away from the Kung Fu DVDs.

[Knestis]

Also (and I can't put it into the above post because the system tells me it's TOO LONG - go figure)...

** The ITAC and membership will be forced to revisit the question of new technologies (e.g., ABS, dynamic stability control) in IT cars - a reality that we'll have to face anyway

** Make sure you insert "spend more money" everywhere you see "be more competitive" - it's implicit but I don't want anyone to accuse me of ignoring that reality

K

EDIT - AND the Dave G. reminded me that ANY change is disruptive, and will create angst and unhappiness for SOMEONE.

[IPRESS]

OK..... I am back in the NO camp. I was all the way with you guys until he said insert SPEND MONEY!:D
(Of course that was one of the sentences I could understand!):happy204:

Nice job putting out what you think might happen. Some of it good some of it not good.
Just depends on what people want.

[JoshS]

So, here's what I think might happen if IT were to "go National."

"Might" is the operative word. Any or all of those things could happen. I have my doubts that a few of them WOULD happen.

I also think that some of them could (or even WILL) happen, whether or not IT "goes National."

[Knestis]

I took the request as wanting ITAC folks to consider both "pros and cons" of the idea, so I considered a lot of things that MIGHT happen.

One (of several) challenges in a discussion like this is that, when someone describes what they think will PROBABLY happen, it gets taken by others as boosterism or trying to force a predetermined decision on others. I just wanted to illustrate that it's possible that some of us might actually be considering an entire range of possible outcomes, even if each of our experiences suggest to us that some are more likely than others.


I also think that some of them could (or even WILL) happen, whether or not IT "goes National."

Mark this quote, everyone - it's very important. Another take-away from this conversation for me is that there are some concerns being voiced here that are LIKELY outcomes of any substantial increase in the popularity of IT as a category, even if it continues exactly as it is. That has implications, I think.

K

[tnord]

Kirk I think the two of us recognize all the same potential issues (though I don't share your optimism about this potentially having an effect on Speed World Challenge :) )

i guess it just comes down to differences in which of those issues the two of us think will actually pan out.

[DavidM]

I still think we're debating the issues & outcomes without answering the question "What are the reasons for IT to go National?"

If we discount IT going national as part of some bigger plan for the club, what are the reasons to take IT national? Here are what I think I've heard as some of the reasons:

- an official gold medal
- increased competition
- more track time?

What else? I think the reasons to do it had better be a good list for it to be considered. Like anything else, it boils down to whether the possible rewards are good enough to justify the perceived risks.

David

[IPRESS]

David you are speaking the truth. I really think the majority of IT racers feel like you do. I know several of my race buddies think IT is fine how it is now and really have no interest in seeing it changed along the lines of going to the RunOffs.

[tnord]

read kirk's thesis above, it has a whole bunch of reasons.

[Drew Aldred]

Say what you want (pro or con) about IT having National class status, but understand this is about one thing: money. National office wants your Runoff's entry to add money to the coffers. Everything else is just speculation, personal opinion, or BS - sometimes one in the same.

[dickita15]

Reasons for wanting IT to go National for will be different for different people, as are reasons for not wanting it.
Andy may want IT to go national so that he can run for the gold medal.
Jake may want IT to go national so Andy and Greg go race nationals so that he have a better chance to win regionals.
Some directors may want IT to go national for increased entries at the runoffs.
Mack may not want IT to go national because he feels he will not enjoy IT as much if it does.
Some SSC driver may not want IT to go national because he is worried about his class having to compete with IT for a runoffs berth.
Everybody’s reasons for supporting this or not will be different, all we can really argue is what will change (see Kirk’s list of possible) and if we think that is good or bad.

[IPRESS]

Dick, you lined it out pretty well.
The club needs to do a bunch of other things way before they think of messing with IT.
Lots of bigger things to take care of.

[lateapex911]

Some SSC (Or Z XXXX class) driver may not want IT to go national because he is worried about his class having to compete with IT for a runoffs berth....and will argue with cloaked reasoning to hide his true agenda...


Fixed that for you....

I love cloaked reasoning, LOL.

[JoshS]

What's funny is that it won't be the SSC drivers with that cloaked reasoning. The SSC guys are primarily into finding a way into national racing, in a modern car, at the lowest possible cost. That's the primary reason why SS didn't fold into T -- the additional cost of the few additional allowances, namely shocks and differentials, was really not palatable to the existing SSC population (dwindling as it is.)

I think a lot of existing SSC drivers would be happy if IT went National, because it would give them a place to play with much the same values, and a lot less of the SSC car-of-the-year frustration.

[lateapex911]

Say what you want (pro or con) about IT having National class status, but understand this is about one thing: money. National office wants your Runoff's entry to add money to the coffers. Everything else is just speculation, personal opinion, or BS - sometimes one in the same.

Are you on the task force? Have you seen their charge? If not, and you are saying that this is about ONE thing (which you are, see above), then you are guilty of speculation as well.

I will speculate it's not just about money, although increased entry fees might be one of the reasons it's being considered.

What's the math on that work out to anyway, Drew?

[lateapex911]

What's funny is that it won't be the SSC drivers .....

That's why I "cloaked" (I crack myself up sometimes) my comment with "Z XXXX class", as opposed to "XXX class".. ;)

[Drew Aldred]

Are you on the task force? Have you seen their charge? If not, and you are saying that this is about ONE thing (which you are, see above), then you are guilty of speculation as well.

I will speculate it's not just about money, although increased entry fees might be one of the reasons it's being considered.

What's the math on that work out to anyway, Drew?

Figure another 200 cars at $300 per, you do the math............

[roadracer]

:unsure: .......................... :014: .......................... :unsure:


what to do? :shrug:

[lateapex911]

TWO hundred? You think there will be two hundred IT cars at the runoffs?

Lets assume that, if this plan were to go through with minimum changes, that the "top 24 classes" will be invited.

I think we can probably eliminate ITC from contention. That leaves 4 IT classes. You think 50 guys will show in every class?

(If so, IT would make nearly EVERY category look like stooges, but I digress)

I think you're being optimistic in thinking we'll get 50 ITR cars. And 50 ITB cars sounds like a bit much too.

I'd bet the numbers would be more like: 45 ITA, 40 ITS, 30 ITB and 24 ITR cars, first year. That's 149 x 300= $44,700, not the 60,000 you suggest..

But wait, there's more....
Now, as everyone is fond of pointing out, IF IT were to go, it would DISPLACE other classes. Since those classes typically have 17 -22 entrants (A rough guess from my memory) that's 4 x 20 (avg) = 80.
So, take 80 away from the 149, and the actual increase is more like 69 entrants, or $20,700. Which is not exactly what you are representing.

And those numbers are rough of course, but gambles no matter what. I honestly wonder if the Dark Lords in Topeka are really going to alter the face of club racing for a possible $20K.

I suggest there might be other large picture items.

[IPRESS]

Jake I know one Black Lord:023: that said NO.

[Bill Miller]

Hi guys, I'm back! Did ya miss me??? :D

I actually read most of the 18 pages of this (I admit that I did skim a lot, and having a couple of people on 'ignore' made it more like 2 pages _kidding_ )

Anyway, there have been some very good points made. I should have taken notes through the whole thing though. Couple of things that I see.

If IT goes National, I think there will be definite pressure to tighten up the granularity of the classification process, as well as publish it. I also think you will have a case of all cars having their spec weights set at the process weight. No more "It's w/in xx lbs, so it's close enough.". You may be able to hold fast on the "no comp. adjustments", but I think you will have to publish the process, and set cars at their process weights.

People have brought up this 'path' or 'stepping stone' concept again. While it makes a nice story, and paints a tidy little picture, I think that it's really nothing more than a red herring, and goes back to the old notion that once IT racers decide they want to race 'real' [sic] race cars, they'll move to Prod or GT. How many people out there know someone that has gone from SS to Prod to GT? One of the things I've seen is that people pick a category for a variety of reasons. Anywhere from they want to race w/ a certain group of people to liking the freedom/limitations on what they can do to the cars to wanting to race a certain type of car. I don't believe the category structure w/in Club Racing was ever designed to be a 'progression' type of structure.

I've heard something about doing away w/ the Regional / National distinction, and having qualifying / non-qualifying races some place before, but I can't quite put my finger on where.

The only thing I'll say about IT attaining National status increasing the costs for anyone racing in IT is the same thing I've said before, look at the Prod/GT/SS/etc. efforts that show up at Regionals. Just because you have guys spending cubic $$$ on their National programs doesn't make the guy running his EP car in Regionals spend that kind of money (I stole the EP/Regional thing from Jake, but you could pick anyone that runs a National-eligible car in just Regionals).

As far as the impact on Regional car counts, I just don't think there's enough solid data to draw any kind of conclusion from. You may lose guys to Nationals, but you may also pick up folks that don't want to spend the huge $$$ to run Nationals, and like the fact that you will have less big-buck teams at Regionals.

The factory involvement thing is also another red herring (but, you need to keep the 5-year rule). Do you really think VWoA (or any other mfg) is going to up their involvement in Club Racing because you've got VW's running National IT races? Kirk, how much support did you get from VWoA when you ran your car as an SSC car?

And someone made a comment about the ITAC doing what was best for IT, and not necessarily doing what was best for Club Racing. It's no different than a corporation. Divisions have Divisional goals, but they need to be aligned with, and support the overall goals of the Corporation. Work to make the whole organization a success, or spin your Division off.

Kirk,

I'll admit that I didn't read your list on my first pass through this, but I will go back and read it.

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[jjjanos]

[

TWO hundred? You think there will be two hundred IT cars at the runoffs?

Lets assume that, if this plan were to go through with minimum changes, that the "top 24 classes" will be invited.

I think we can probably eliminate ITC from contention. That leaves 4 IT classes. You think 50 guys will show in every class?

ITC makes the cut. Ranked #20 in total count and more popular, overall, than SSC, T2, T1, FT3, T3, and GP.

ITR will make the cut REAL soon, especially if it goes National, so kiss SSB bye too.


(If so, IT would make nearly EVERY category look like stooges, but I digress)
Other than the Miatas and maybe the SRFS, yes.


I'd bet the numbers would be more like: 45 ITA, 40 ITS, 30 ITB and 24 ITR cars, first year. That's 149 x 300= $44,700, not the 60,000 you suggest..

I think 180-200 IT cars over the 5 classes isn't unreasonable, especially since anyone running the minimum number of events gets an invitation. Heck, if you live 1 day away from the place, you might as well go. Move it further east and we're talking a HUGE number of cars.


Now, as everyone is fond of pointing out, IF IT were to go, it would DISPLACE other classes. Since those classes typically have 17 -22 entrants (A rough guess from my memory) that's 4 x 20 (avg) = 80.

The displaced classes had 134 drivers turn a wheel. So somewhere between 50 to 70 additional entrants or a 10% increase. Not too shabby, especially since Topeka takes a huge financial hit if it doesn't meet its guaranteed car count.


And those numbers are rough of course, but gambles no matter what. I honestly wonder if the Dark Lords in Topeka are really going to alter the face of club racing for a possible $20K.

I believe the penalties for non-performance are pretty steep.

Plus, it's 25 races, so add SSB back. Net loss: 75 to 100 cars, SWAG.


I suggest there might be other large picture items.

Non-performance clause on car counts.

Here's my early May prediction. For 2008, Runoffs invitations will be extend to drivers who do not meet the GCR-mandated number of races to qualify.

[JoshS]

I think 180-200 IT cars over the 5 classes isn't unreasonable, especially since anyone running the minimum number of events gets an invitation. Heck, if you live 1 day away from the place, you might as well go. Move it further east and we're talking a HUGE number of cars.

Maybe I just don't understand your point, but you know that's not true, right? You have to run the minimum number of events *and* finish in the top 10 in your division in points. I personally know people who have run enough national events, and yet not gotten an invitation due to their finishing position in division (as recently as 2006). And they would have gone, too.

[jjjanos]

Maybe I just don't understand your point, but you know that's not true, right? You have to run the minimum number of events *and* finish in the top 10 in your division in points. I personally know people who have run enough national events, and yet not gotten an invitation due to their finishing position in division (as recently as 2006). And they would have gone, too.

For the 2007 Runoffs, I heard from multiple National drivers who did not "qualify" on final Divisional standing that invitations and pleading were extended to them to go. All had run sufficient events to qualify, but didn't finish high enough in the standings. Now maybe they were blowing smoke. Don't know.

I also can recall instances in other years when drivers has their entries accepted and ran but who were not invited. It's just that most drivers don't have the chutzpah to either submit entries w/o the invitation OR actually show up at the event w/o having submitted a pre-entry.

Production stayed away in droves last year. Lots of drivers said screw it; we'll run the Prod Fest at Goblins Go. I'm betting the number increases this year.

Their going to be hurting big time for cars. People went last year hoping the changes would improve the circuit. They aren't buying promises again and are feedup with the venue. Gas prices through the roof. Can't race on the equity line of credit any more. Hell, I think there's probably a 20% probability that at least one IT class will be part of the 2008 Runoffs and the only reasons I don't put the probability higher is because they don't want to PO the classes not invited and they'd have to find some way of deciding who to invite.

[dickita15]

again we are speculating and drawing conclusions without having any idea how making IT National would fit into what could be a much larger revamping of club racing. For instance maybe they will propose all classes get to go to the runoffs but only the top say 16 get stand alone races and the rest get multiclass runoffs races. We really have no idea what will be decided or if a consensus decision can even be made.

Welcome back Bill :happy204:

[tnord]

jeff i think you're confused. there were instances of groups of SSC/GTL/maybe other drivers who were offering to bring a car to the track, and pay all your expenses while there to anyone with a national liscense so they could boost their participation numbers.

[Knestis]

I COMPLETELY fail to understand why increased revenues for the Club are a bad thing, as goals go. You WANT IT to be less popular than possible...? You WANT the Club to be less successful than possible?

Perplexed,

K

[Drew Aldred]

I'm not knocking increased Club revenues, just saying let's be clear about why there is even talk about making IT into National classes. Personally, I think IT has a great thing going for it the way it is right now. Had I not been exposed to prod racing as a kid when my dad raced the first time around, I probably would have gone the IT route when I started racing in 2001.

[jjjanos]

I COMPLETELY fail to understand why increased revenues for the Club are a bad thing, as goals go. You WANT IT to be less popular than possible...? You WANT the Club to be less successful than possible?

Perplexed,

K

Kirk,

The motivation comes across as being less about helping IT and fixing the long-term problem and more about throwing yet another band-aid on the problem and hoping that the ticking time bomb has a snooze button so that the big boom happens when someone else is on the BoD. Same reason why Prod and GT and Sports Racers haven't received the major overhauls they've needed. Take the asprin to make the pain in the knee feel better when what you really need is a knew replacement.

Nor is it clear that this raises money for the Club, as a whole. Looking at the 2007 final standings, it's pretty obvious that there are alot of guys who do their 4 races and stop. Guys chasing regional-based championships tend to run more. Topeka will, however, get more $ for itself because of higher entry at the Runoffs.

[Knestis]

...because under the current circumstances, maybe they can meet the requirements to qualify for the RubOffs in 4 races...? Would that be possible in a really well-subscribed IT class?

K

EDIT - and for Pete's sake, can we PLEASE stop talking about "Topeka" as if it's freakin' Baghdad or someplace...? THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE SCCA, JUST LIKE YOU. AND ME.

[jjjanos]

...because under the current circumstances, maybe they can meet the requirements to qualify for the RubOffs in 4 races...? Would that be possible in a really well-subscribed IT class?

Yes.

http://www.sedivracing.org/National/Points07/index.html

3 of the qualifiers could have made it with 3 starts.
Over 50% could have done it with 4 starts.

http://www.grav.net/~nedivpoints/stats.pl?mem=SM

6 of the 11 drivers in the top 10 could have done it with 4 or less entries.

[ddewhurst]

**maybe they can meet the requirements to qualify for the RubOffs in 4 races...?**

***EDIT - and for Pete's sake, can we PLEASE stop talking about "Topeka" as if it's freakin' Baghdad or someplace...? THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE SCCA, JUST LIKE YOU. AND.AND ME.

I agree K & I have never call Topeka anything except Topeka. ;) How about you start calling the Runoffs exactly that, the Runoffs.:D

[DavidM]

read kirk's thesis above, it has a whole bunch of reasons.

The first line of Kirk's post reads "So, here's what I think might happen if IT were to "go National." Some of the consequences Kirk lists might be reasons for somebody, but everything Kirk lists may not come to pass.

If I was having a conversation with somebody and they said IT should be national my first question would be "Why?". If that can't be answered with some good reasons then the rest of the discussion becomes moot. I've read through this thread a couple times and don't recall seeing a succinct list of reasons why IT should be national. There's been lots of discussion about what people think will happen if IT does go national, but that's different IMO.

Why should IT be a national class? No long winded answers. A short, succinct list of reasons why IT should go national.

David

[JoshS]

Why should IT be a national class? No long winded answers. A short, succinct list of reasons why IT should go national.
Some reasons I've heard:


It doesn't make sense to have a nationally-managed ruleset and not allow it at National races. Why the special case?
IT racers deserve the chance to compete for a national championship too.
IT is a hugely successful ruleset. It could bolster the national ranks and Runoffs entries.

[lateapex911]

Why should IT be a national class? No long winded answers. A short, succinct list of reasons why IT should go national.

David



-IT racers have more options when it comes to scheduling races to attend, and choosing tracks.
-IT could appear more attractive to newcomers in the areas of the country where IT is very competitive if the "bar" isn't always so high at Regional races.
-Category could stand some increased self policing. Even a little has trickle down effects that are hard to define.
-National status would increase contingency options.
-Influx of "fence sitters". People from other sanctioning bodies, or from within SCCA that weren't actively racing in IT for various reasons.

[JeffYoung]

I've always wanted to party in Topeka!

[Knestis]

The problem with "why?" is that it requires a value judgment. Racer X's "reason we should do this" could easily be Speed's "reason we should NOT do this.

We each need to answer, for ourselves...

** Do you think IT should be a National category?

** What is your rationale for thinking that? What case do you make for your position?

** MOST importantly, what values, goals, and priorities drive that rationale?

There's no such thing as a universally "right" answer for the second question among people who disagree in terms of the last.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've always wanted to party in Topeka!

Sounds ike someone who has never been to Pat's Pig or Baby Dolls!! :)

[JeffYoung]

Let me guess....Pat's Pig is a Kansas strip joint, and Baby Dolls is a restaurant?

[tnord]

-IT racers have more options when it comes to scheduling races to attend, and choosing tracks.



more importantly, it could reduce the number of events each region runs, making car counts at each weekend higher, and increasing financial viability.

[lateapex911]

more importantly, it could reduce the number of events each region runs, making car counts at each weekend higher, and increasing financial viability.

Ahhh...of course, and that in and of itself becomes an important consideration, and yet another benefit, BUT...........

....., the original question asked straight up, about "national" status, and I take that to mean "As is" today. I was going to add a "Assuming current conditions, acccck, " to the end of my post, but it seemed redundant.

HOPEfully, those in the decision making position see the implications of such an progression...i for one think that in many ways regions are overtaxed trying to run Regional races, National races, schools, and PDXs while not burning out the staff, and making sure the events turn a profit. (To ensure future regional viability).

Bottom line as it stands now... (and yes, i know this isn't a purely "is it good for IT?" point of view, but IT is PART of the club...as goes the club, so too goes IT...) ...The Runoffs are not attracting enough participants. The Club racing national championship is a shadow of it's former self, and some will argue that it's a reflection on the state of Club racing in the SCCA. To combat this, (as well as because of) it has become easier and easier to qualify.

Now, many ask "Why is the Runoffs loosing subscribers?" and the answer is of course, varied. Many point to the venue, others point to the growing irrelevance of the categories. I'd suggest it's both, but the latter weighs heavily.

Yet, our structure, and our race scheduling, are largely driven by the mandates for National races to offer Runoffs qualifying opportunities. Regions must run events as prescribed by the national requirements, and do so in certain numbers and in certain locations. Yet, it could be argued that interest is waning in that method of doing business.

Regional events like doubles, and other creative weekends (Like the IT Fest) are very well attended. The IT Fest wouldn't exist if it weren't because of Todd's vision, and his estimation of popularity of the category. Smart regions cater to the needs of the constituents, and act to ensure their survival.

I'd suggest that as Travis points out, the club as a whole would be far better off if it dropped the National/Regional distinction, allowed all national rulesets the same privileges, took a look at how people qualify to run the Runoffs, and left it up to the Regions to devise schedules that met market realities, while pushing the least amount of structure possible.

[Knestis]

...and further, after a couple of REALLY good conversations this past weekend with some of our IT constituents who don't hang out here, I've really come to understand a couple of fundamental issues that align with what I hear Jake saying:

** Unless/until we eliminate the artificial National/Regional distinction and "make Club Racing just Club Racing," the issue of status is moot. In fact, "go National?" is the wrong question based on some bad assumptions.

** Unless/until we address compliance issues in IT, we are going to have issues. The issues are bigger if we get higher profile, but they already exist.

If these issues are addressed first, then the "logic paths" to the bad things people think will happen are disrupted, if/when IT finds itself on a par with the rest of the categories.

K

[jjjanos]

more importantly, it could reduce the number of events each region runs, making car counts at each weekend higher, and increasing financial viability.

Unless at least 1/x of your regular drivers skip an event, where x is the number of regionals you hold, you lose money by dropping an event.

100 drivers, 80 who compete any weekend. All compete in 4 of 5 of your events.

5*(80Fee - Rental) = 4*(100Fee - Rental).

[roadracer]

For those unaware, it looks like Spec Miata has cross pollinated your discussions here in their forum...:024:
http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/3973.html#000028

[ddewhurst]

As I continue to read these 19 pages I continue to laugh (even outloud sometimes) with something the master of the Spec Miata site said long before Spec Miata went National when these similar discussions were taking place on the Spec Miata site.

BE VERY careful what you wish for.

$40,000.00 plus Spec Miatas at Natinal that were $20,000.00 when there was Pro Spec Miata/Miata Regional cars. At the time people thought of the $20,000.00 cars as top of the line cars. Hey they were top of the line cars, at National the line got pushed higher.

EDIT: The pigs at Pats are great. Wouldn't waste my time at Baby Dolls unless someone can assure me there is something new that these women do. By the way IIRC there are three (3) Baby Dolls in the Topeka area. Not three strippers, three separate joints.

[Charlie Broring]

I dropped off my Prod car at Summit Point last night for the National race this weekend. I was talking with a group of long time SCCA racers who have seen the changes and ups and downs in our club over the years. As I am the Region ITB drivers representative and involved in the DC Region they brought up IT going national. The feeling was universal that Improved Touring is nuts if they allow themselves to become a national class. They desperately want to see National racing rebuilt but not at the expense of our thriving regional program.

One point is what a cluster f**ck Runoffs tech would be with old the cars. It would make SS tech seem easy and fast. "We will have to run the IT race on Monday to clear out tech by the weekend races"

I head a bunch of good reasons NOT to make IT National or eliminate the National/Regional distinction.

This is a hot topic outside the IT world too. I told them that my opinion means little and I agree with them. So, the only thing I could think of to do is pass this along to others on the board.

Charlie

[pgipson]

I haven't included my thoughts because my car is not really an IT car (although it could be). But I have been thinking about doing something different and even have a 91 miata parked out back that would be a good ITA base. The problem is there are so few IT cars racing around here that it doesn't make much sense to build one.

In AZ our biggest classes are Spec RX7 and Spec 944. This season for our local championship we had a total of 4 ITA participants all year -- 2 made most of the races & the other 2 came to one race each. We had 1 ITS participant (on 1 weekend) and no ITB or ITC cars all year. And this is not new. We have had few IT cars for several years now. And I don't think they went to nasa. They just are not here.

If other areas (other than the east coast) are anywhere like this then IT would seem to be a candidate for some major changes to inject some interest.

There is a lot of discussion on here from the areas with lots of IT cars. Hell, there were a lot of IT cars in the SE 20 years ago when I lived in NC. But what is the IT situation in other places (except SFR)? Is IT as healthy nationwide as you NARRC, MARRS and SARRC guys make it sound?

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey Paul,

I think the main problem is economic, as in people have maxed out credit cards and super jumbo ARM's to buy houses that have now dropped in value. This is how it is this year but the problem has been building for the past few years. Even accounting for NASA's numbers, I think there have been more racer drop out recently. Guy's like Larry Barnes who had a bad wreck last season havn't been back.

I know that we tend to have a slow build to the number of racers over the season, but if you look at our regional points:
http://www.calclub.com/html/html2/2008/2008r_points_05_18_08.htm

You'll see that outside of SM, IT is one of the healthier classes. So if you build that Miata, you need to drive out with the Spec944 guys and run some Cal-club races. Maybe we need a Western Regional Championship.

James

[pgipson]

. Maybe we need a Western Regional Championship.

James

When I moved out here we did have a divisional championship, the Southern Pacific RRC. It was AZ, San Diego and Cal Club. It died out 8-10 years ago, about the time San Diego lost Holtville as a racing circuit.

SFR used to host the Pacific Coast RRC each year but that has not run for some time either.

[fiat124girl]

Let me guess....Pat's Pig is a Kansas strip joint, and Baby Dolls is a restaurant?

Actually Jeff, Baby Dolls is a multi functional establishment, you may get quite good food and naked women.

[gprodracer]

I gotta agree with David D. Be careful what you wish for. The Spec Miata class is a classic example with much less National entries than last year. While I like Travis's idea of no Reg/Nat. distnction, that probably won't happen, and SCCA needs the Nationals to be their premier racing series. Word on the street is that they are going to combine FP,GP, and HP into one class, and make the Runoffs 21 classes. I guess because that allows them to add 3 more classes at their whim. The other reason for lower entries at the Runoffs is their insistance to run it at Heartland Park. Mid Ohio was a long haul, but Topeka adds another day to my towing. I and many others can't afford that, and won't attend. Keep IT Regional as the crown jewel of entry level racing! (climbing off soap box now)

[JeffYoung]

As much of a useless, tasteless bore as a strip joint is, adding food to the mix just makes it, if this is even possible, even more ridiculous.


Actually Jeff, Baby Dolls is a multi functional establishment, you may get quite good food and naked women.

[lateapex911]

As much of a useless, tasteless bore as a strip joint is, adding food to the mix just makes it, if this is even possible, even more ridiculous.

Jeff, you need to travel beyond your neighborhood, and down to the home of our esteemed safety guru Gregg Baker, who has (reportedly) spent some time studying the "Rachael's" business model. Rachael's is a steakhouse. Near the Palm Beach airport (among other locations). They will detail your car while you wait. And serve you that steak with waitresses wearing, well, you get the idea...

[ddewhurst]

Numbers posted by CRB member Stan Clayton during June of 2007 therefore the numbers I suspect are from the year 2006. Add em up for what ever you want.

1060 SM
617 SRF
535 ITA
355 ITS
279 FV
268 ITB
197 ITE
189 VINTAGE
177 SSM
172 SRX7
155 ITC
141 EP + 243 National entries Jan-May = 384 total entries
141 FF
126 FC
123 SMT
121 IT7
111 FM
110 PRO-7
103 SPO
102 GT1
96 AS
83 F5
78 FA
77 SP
74 FP + 169 = 243
68 CF
60 DSR
60 S944
56 GT2
53 FE
52 ITR
50 SPU
48 GTL
47 GP + 75 = 122
46 CSR
45 GTA
44 FE
41 T1
39 GT3
39 SSB
39 SSC
38 S2
38 T2
36 CFC
35 T3
32 FST
25 CFF
23 ITX
21 NCF
20 CC
19 GTP
18 RS
15 BP
13 PCA2
12 PCA1
9 FSR
9 PCA3
9 ST
9 FB
6 ASR
6 ITM
5 DP
5 SPM
4 SRS
3 ITT
3 SF
2 BG
2 CP1
2 HC
2 SG-2
1 ITU
0 HP + 112