IT Fuel Cell Requirements?

[fornetti14]

My Rabbit has a bad OEM tank and I'm looking at fuel cells. The GCR says this:
9.3.26. FUEL CELL SPECIFICATIONS
All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring. All safety fuel cells shall be constructed and certified in accordance with the FIA FT-3 or higher (FT-3.5, FT-5, etc.) specifications. All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.

Does that mean if I have a cell it has to be FIA rated for Improved Touring?

I was looking at this one:
JAZ 210-510-03 - JAZ Aluminum Fuel Cells (Retails for around $225)

Found this on their site too:
Although all JAZ Products fuel cells exceed SFI SPEC 28.1, only fuel cells labeled "THIS FUEL CELL CARRIES SFI CERTIFICATION" are actually certified. Only the fuel cells that are specifically designed for classes that require SFI certification receive a serial number and SFI label. If the fuel cell you require does not come standard with certification, JAZ Products can SFI certify any cell in this website for a nominal fee. If you have any questions regarding SFI certification, or which fuel cell will fit your needs best, call our technical pros, and they can help you make the right decision regarding your application.

Back to the question -
Will this regular aluminum fuel cell be legal? It's within 12" of the old tank and would mount in the spare tire well. I already have a block off plate that would enclose the cell. Would this fly? What do you guys think?

[Ryan Williams]

An Improved Touring car can use the factory gas tank; however if a fuel cell is installed, that fuel cell must meet the stated GCR fuel cell FIA specifications.

I know it sounds like a "Catch-22" but if a fuel cell is used, then it must comply to the specified rule.

[dickita15]

I am sorry I disagree. The GCR in the general section states:
All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring. All safety fuel cells shall be constructed and certified in accordance with the FIA FT-3 or higher (FT-3.5, FT-5, etc.) specifications. All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.

So according to this the specifications in this paragraph do not apply to IT.

And then in the IT section:
The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell. The fuel cell shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the original fuel tank location. Additional reinforcement may be added to support the fuel cell, but such reinforcement shall not attach to the roll cage. Floor pan may be modified for installation.

I use a Jaz cell.

[Greg Amy]

Hoo-boy, this is interesting...I agree with Ryan. Here's the line again:

All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.
Here's where the conflict arises: Ryan (and I) read these lines to mean:

All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring. If installed it must meet these specs.
Here's how Dick reads that line:

A safety fuel cell, if installed, must with these specifications, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.
Frankly, I believe the intent is that cells are optional in Improved Touring, but if installed must comply with the specs. This falls in line with prior "safety" related issues, in that safety equipment must meet specific specifications, such as harnesses, seats, suits, helmets, window nets, ad nausea. In fact, the only "safety" equipment that is allowed but not required to meet any sort of spec is head and neck restraints, and those are not even (yet) specifically called out in the GCR. I can't imagine SCCA calling for a piece of safety equipment and not requiring it meet a spec.

Didn't we have this debate some time back? I seem to recall this, and I also seem to recall being convinced to a position in opposition to what I am writing above...maybe someone can do a search and find it...?

Greg

[Greg Amy]

Yup, here it is. We didn't resolve it back then, either, just Dick and I agreeing to disagree, and tossing it over to someone else to work out... ;)

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22504&highlight=fuel+cell

[Greg Amy]

By the way, I pulled up a copy of the 2004 GCR. The rules for IT are effectively the same, but referred the reader to TWO sections of the GCR, 17.12 and 19.

17.12 was pretty much the same as the current one and had that same verbiage, "All cars shall be equipped with a fuel cell complying with specifications according to GCR Section 19., except Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring cars."

19, however, was a complete discrete section of the GCR detailing how a fuel cell was to be constructed and installed. It started with:

All safety fuel cells shall be constructed and certified in accordance with the FIA FT-3 specifications. Where safety fuel cells are required in SCCA Competition, all safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.
In order to comply with the ITCS you had to comply with GCR 19, and while there were no expressed exclusions for IT cars, there are still those "where safety fuel cells are required" weasel words...

I still can't imagine SCCA allowing a safety item in a car and not requiring it to meet a spec, but it's certainly vague enough to make one go :shrug:...

[dickita15]

I still can't imagine SCCA allowing a safety item in a car and not requiring it to meet a spec, but it's certainly vague enough to make one go :shrug:...

such as optional tubes in a roll cage not having to be of a minimum size?

I guess the best advice is from the other thread. make sure the guy who is going to inspect your car will pass it. In this part of the country the practice agrees with my interpretation. YMMV

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree with Greg on this one.

My read: Certain classes HAVE to have a cell and that cell must meet FIA spec.

Certain classes a cell is optional - but if installed, that cell is not exempt from spec. "All cells shall be constructed...".

It doesn't make sense to me that certain classes can have 'sub-spec' cells. IMHO.

[dickita15]

It doesn't make sense to me that certain classes can have 'sub-spec' cells. IMHO.
When asked about the logic of having less rigorous standard (requiring fuel cells) in IT and similar classes the CRB chair responded that prod and GT cars do not require functional bumpers so are much more vulnerable in an incident.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think we can get a clarification on this one pretty easily. Hope it works out 'fer ya! :)

[Greg Amy]

I think we can get a clarification on this one pretty easily. Hope it works out 'fer ya! :)
I think this may be a good case for letting a sleeping dog lie...

[dickita15]

I think this may be a good case for letting a sleeping dog lie...
well we agree on that Greg.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Good idea!

[Ryan Williams]

Several years ago, a friend wanted to install a fuel cell in his IT car. He and I both agreed that the "wording" in the GCR and IT rules was "fuzzy" and not totally clear about the installation of a fuel cell in an IT car.

I believe he called SCCA tech and was told that fuel cells were optional in IT cars, but if a fuel cell is installed in an IT car, then the fuel cell must meet the FIA specification as quoted in the GCR.

Perhaps the wording in the IT rules should be more specific about the requirements of a fuel cell in an IT car??

As I do not race anymore in IT, maybe an IT racer should submit or request a revision for clarification.

Regards, Ryan.

[Sandro]

Agreed on what Ryan said above, and I beleive the same applies for a fire system.

If the original poster (or anyone else) still plans on using the fuel tank mentioned,my brother has one for sale in prcactically new condition.

[thedemoguy]

I have a new fuel cell with surge tank installed by ATL that I was going to put in my ITB Jetta last fall that I would sell to you.
It is the well-cell that will go in your spar tire well to keep the center of gravity as low as possible.
It is FIA/SFI rated and no matter how you interpret the rules, SAFETY should be your main concern and this cell will be safe plus if for some reason you change the car to the GTL class the cell would pass tech.

[thedemoguy]

This is the cell

http://e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-1/fuel_cell/cell_1.htm

[CCDangie71]

I read the rules the same as Greg and Ryan but what I need clarification on is the "certification" of the fuel cell. I plan on running the stock tank in my car for the first year and then installing the cell I picked up. The cell meets all the requirements: foam filled bladder encased in a .036 steel container, positive locking cap with a vent, etc. However, the cell doesn't have any FIA certification marked on it. Can I use it?

Reminds me of the debate on the SFI rating on driver's suits. Sure your OMP suit is flame retardant but no SFI = SOL and thanks for playing. If this is the case, I will have to buy another fuel cell with the certification painted on it and sell my non-certified one.

Any ideas?

[Charlie Broring]

The interpretation of the rules to allow non-SFI or FIA fuel cells in IT has been prevalent for years. There are quite a few IT cars using unrated circle track cells. To my knowledge this hasn't been a safety issue. In my own case I would much prefer a circle track style cell to the poorly protected stock fuel tank. Even though lacking FIA certification, these cells have a proven safety history in the rough and tumble stock car world.

In my opinion, a rule "clarification" that would prohibit the common practice of using circle track type cells would be another example of the SCCA fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

Charlie

[xr4racer]

Item number 4 under 9.3.26 which allows rotary molded cells not having a bladder, or not contained in a metal can in classes (IT) that are not required to have a cell but are allowable as an option.

I most certainly read the earlier part as if a cell is required it must meet the specs, but in classes where they are not there are no specs, especially with the rotary moulded (cheap, no SFI or FIA)cells allowed.

matt

[chewy8000]

Hey Bill,

I'm interested in the cell if the original poster doesn't jump on it.

[markw]

Here is your clarification from the GCR 9.3.26 this is section 4.
4. Rotary Molded Cell
The use of rotary molded fuel cells not having a bladder, or not contained in a metal can, is allowable in those cars that do not require the use of a fuel cell, but where they are an allowed option.

Fuel cells were an option in IT last time I read the rules. This should clear up the confusion.

[thedemoguy]

Hey Bill,

I'm interested in the cell if the original poster doesn't jump on it.

It's a 12 gallon cell, I paid about $550 for the cell and then had to pay 100 or 150 to have the serge tank installed plus shipping.
It was over $700, I think closer to $800 and has never been installed.

I'll take $600

[chewy8000]

Bill,

email me some pics at [email protected]

Thanks

[thedemoguy]

The cell is in my buddy's shop about 1hr from me in Youngstown Ohio.
I assure you it is new.

[fornetti14]

Thanks for all the posts everyone. Looks like I need to ask my local officials about how they read this rule. In the mean time I'm going to buy a new aftermarket tank to see if I can sort the car out before dropping the cash on a cell.

Is that new fuel cell still available or did it sell to the other guy?

Thanks,
Tony

[markw]

Tony, what is the problem with the original tank? I have seen pickup problems on the 83 and 84 tanks. Something comes apart in the pickup arrangement. This can be solved using an OE vw fuel resevoir that came on the 85 cabrio and foxes. Someone had a drawing on the Production website of what I am talking about. The return from the fuel injection is plumbed into this resevoir along with an external prepump. I can look the OE number up for you if you are interested. Email me nospam at bocafed dot org.

[fornetti14]

Yes, it was an OEM tank and it had the Audi symbol on the side of it. The tank was newer and I think 3-4 years sitting empty rotted out the rubber in the bottom and the pick-up was bad. I knew there was a problem when I was draining it and the baffle was covered in fuel but nothing was coming out!

Anyway, I took a chance with an aftermarket Autozone fuel tank and it worked perfect on my shakedown run with 4 gallons. I did some high speed figure-8's in my parking lot at work (Saturday of course) and the final test will be at a nightly open track event either this Thursday or next week Wednesday. :eclipsee_steering:

I'll post back the results but the car is night and day different from where it was. I'll email you for those directions on changing the tank pick-up. I don't think it's a tech. item.

[markw]

Here is one thread from the prod site. http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?t=7460

[fornetti14]

My $145 Autozone gas tank did the trick. My shake down run at Gingerman Raceway went well.
I can run it down to about 1.5 - 2 gallons before it will stall under hard turns (with race tires). I think that is good considering the money I spent.

[Jonathan]

This is a non-rule that should be a personal rule. Use a cell. Easiest way to prevent a catastrophic fire. Saves you, saves your car, saves your competitors. A gutted car that you escaped unharmed from is WAY more expensive than a fuel cell. Rubber bladder in a steel can only. Main thing to think about is how does a factory tank respond upside-down when it's hardest to get out of the car? I personally am skipping buying front struts and new tires this year to upgrade safety equipment.

[xr4racer]

I agree it is a good idea if you install and plumb it correctly. I think the best thing to avoid the catastrophic fire is a FIRE SYSTEM. Most factory installed fuel tanks are very good especially in the last 10 or so years. I have not seen a ton of cars catching on fire on the highways because of a rollover, they do take this into consideration on the OEM side. As long as your not racing older Chevy trucks or Pintos they seem pretty good. Most of the fires I have seen have been aftermarket part failures or not so good installations of aftermarket pumps and filters etc.

matt

[JoshS]

I agree it is a good idea if you install and plumb it correctly. I think the best thing to avoid the catastrophic fire is a FIRE SYSTEM. Most factory installed fuel tanks are very good especially in the last 10 or so years. I have not seen a ton of cars catching on fire on the highways because of a rollover, they do take this into consideration on the OEM side. As long as your not racing older Chevy trucks or Pintos they seem pretty good. Most of the fires I have seen have been aftermarket part failures or not so good installations of aftermarket pumps and filters etc.

Agreed. And for well more than a decade these systems have been totally sealed, they won't leak in a rollover, and they won't get punctured in 99% of crashes. They are less likely to leak than any backyard engineering would be.

[Jonathan]

.....I understand, but how many improved touring cars are from the last decade? My car is a 1980 rabbit, hardly new technology. Also, with a factory tank are you using the origional fill neck? Just can't see a reason to not spend less than a set of tires for something so important, move the tank to a protected area and make sure the hold-down and plumbing are right.

[Greg Amy]

Dammit! We *almost* made it two years before yet another newbie bumped up this thread/idea/topic again.

SO CLOSE!!!! So, so close...sigh...

[924Guy]

LOL...

Having now to deal with a cell for my DSR, I'm glad to have never gone there with the IT car... massive extra cost etc... they all have to be SFI or FIA now, right?

[spnkzss]

LOL...

Having now to deal with a cell for my DSR, I'm glad to have never gone there with the IT car... massive extra cost etc...

We are building a enduro specific IT car. I STILL wish I hadn't gone there in IT. :blink:

[Greg Amy]

...they all have to be SFI or FIA now, right?
Reeeead the topic, Luke....

[Jonathan]

I might be new to the board but I've raced professionaly for 20 years. I've seen 2 drivers I new personnaly die and could only stand going to one funeral. I've also seen a fuel cell go bouncing down the race track at least once a seson for 20 years after a car got ripped apart on impact, so excuse me if I'm not thrilled about hitting some guy's 179$ factury fuel can when it flies out of his car. The scariest thing in motorsports is to see a car on fire with someone you know in it that can't get out. So how bout you give a "newbie" a break and allow me to remind everyone about the worst day in motorsports that is easily avoidable by a PROPER FUEL CELL WITH A RUBBER BLADDER!

[Greg Amy]

...excuse me if I'm not thrilled about hitting some guy's 179$ factury fuel can when it flies out of his car.
Problem is, Jonathan, fuel cells are not required in Improved Touring. In fact, in many cases fuel cells are not required in Production racing, either. And, of course, they're not required in Showroom Stock or Touring, either.

Given that this particular (ongoing, constantly argued, never-resolved) topic is not about whether to run fuel cells but what fuels cells to run if you choose to, your energies toward your stated goal(s) are much better spent not here on the board but rather by campaigning the CRB/BoD to require fuel cells in all car classes. I'd suggest, however, that those effort would be in vain (especially given the requirements for fuel cells in some Production cars was only recently approved...)

GA

[924Guy]

Sorry, I get confused having to shuffle the different rulebooks in my head...

Following up - yeah, I definitely would not support a rule that would add thousands to the build of my car and plenty of others, to achieve a level of safety that is already there... nothing against those guys, but I don't race a Ford - VW and Porsche engineers seem to do a pretty good job of locating the gas tank in a very safe place...

[Bob Roth]

Save yourself some money and buy78 a replacement tank for $78. See here http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/shop_parts/fuel_tank/volkswagen/rabbit.html
A fuel cell will not make your car more reliable, faster or lighter. and if you are thinking its a plus for safety, its probably not the best place to be spending your money. Save it for a HANS device......