Am I reading this right?

[dominojd]

2008 Prize Money Discontinued

At the SCCA Roundtable in Ithaca on March 15 the NARRC Committee voted to abolish the prize fund and redirect the fee as follows:
The NARRC Committee will collect $6.00 of each entry fee from each NARRC sanctioned race.
$3.00 of the fund is for Marketing and Advertising.
$3.00 goes toward the NARRC Administrative fund for trophies, banquet costs, etc.

No more NARRC checks?

[dickita15]

Well I said to myself “Joe must be crazy” nobody said anything about such a change. But that is what the website says they did. In the past the $6 was split $1 administration - $5 points fund. Last year they collected $13.998 of which was split $11,655 points fund and $2,333 for overhead, although a small amount of the points money would not have been returned in the more undersubscribed classes.
Personally I don’t care about the points fund but if it is going to be stopped lower the fee rather than set up another bureaucracy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is correct. When driver feedback was solicited last year, many said that the money fund was not near their top priority in terms of what makes (or could make) the NARRC a great series.

Add to that the NARRC 'sanction' fee may have been keeping NARRC points events from joining with certain events at certain tracks - it was thought that a lower number might help us get ito some of those races.

People also wanted better trophies. So the choice was then some cash or some kick-butt trophies. Here is what they have done in the SARRC series with their money:

Gear bag with year and SARRC champion logo
Medium weight jacket embroidered with a big SARRC logo on the back and their name, class and SARRC champion on the breast pocket.
4 t-shirts with SARRC logo on back and year champ on the front.
2? polo shirts with embroidered breast pocket logo and year champ
4 embroided hats
4 SARRC year champ bumper stickers
4 SARRC year champ patches
trophy plaque

Option to pay for some additional units for crew as well.

The NARRC is YOUR series. Reps for each run group were suppose to solicit your opinion on a variety of topics over the winter. That feedback was presented to the NARRC committee at the NARRC winter meeting and the new formats were set up.

If this doesn't work out, we can continue to modify as the participants let their thoughts known.

[lateapex911]

Interesting........

From my point of view, I'd probably (In the highly unlikely event I won, LOL) hand the jacket back..I'd never wear it. Why have it collect dust and take up space?

I'd rather have the trophy, and a check, and in case the trophy sucks, I'd use the money to go have my own trophy made.

I'm confused on your second point Andy...but it's probably because of my lack of information/knowledge as to the way the system works.

And half goes to "marketing"?? What is that, exactly?

Here's my take....there are maybe 3 or 4 guys in any given class that really have a chance of winning the deal, and those guys are the ones that will subscribe to the series. Everyone else probably can't be bothered...if there's nothing in it for them.

If you make it so the guys further down the line have something to gain, then I would think your subscription will increase.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am not part of the 'marketing' piece of it but I assume it is to promote the series.

I think we all knew that not everyone was going to be happy with this decision but when the oppotunity came for feedback, most said forget the money. In most classes, it's almost not worth the effort. Ask Jeff what his check was for this year....

Again, weigh in when the meetings happen and when you are asked for feedback - this is a dynamic series - hopefully building each year. It's OUR series and the PTB are listening - trust me.

[dominojd]

Wow feed back huh? I was never asked. I sure liked getinng my $286 dollar check this year it at least paid for NHIS entry instead of a gear bag or a jacket.

What is this marketing?

Oh I live in Califronia, but this Narrc series looks really cool maybe i'll run it, please. Everyone in the NE is already in the NARRC series just look at the points what were there something like 80 people in ITA last year some only ran one race.

I say leave it the way it was and give me cash with my crappy wine glass trophy which probaly cost me 10K plus to get.

[tom_sprecher]

From my point of view, I'd probably (In the highly unlikely event I won, LOL) hand the jacket back..I'd never wear it.

To each his own but you would be one of the few. In my experience of handing the SARRC bag of goodies to the drivers that do not attend the SEDiv Annual Convention and Banquet the first thing they do is dig out the jacket and put it on.

In the spring and fall anyone who has won a SARRC jacket is wearing it in the paddock. We also change the color from time to time as well.

It's like at each race we hand out a "SARRC Event Winner" sticker that is black on silver to each class winner. Most guys could not care less about getting the trophy but you had better damn have his sticker so he can put it on his car.

SOmething about bragging rights.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I can't know for sure if you were asked specifically Joe, but there was a NARRC-specific drivers meeting at LRP last year. That Aug 10th meeting was video-taped for those who culd not attend and put up on the web and a link posted on this website.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1732308220336274374&q=NARRC&total=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

Thread here with info and links to video:

http://72.167.111.130/forums/showthread.php?t=22267

And the link here where there was discussion it would happen and what would be discussed:

http://72.167.111.130/forums/showthread.php?t=22220

In addition, each run group had a volunteer leader (in our case Doc Bro) who was to solicit input from drivers and provide feedback to the NARRC committee so they could make informed changes, if any.

Add to that the NARRC portion of the NeDiv meetings in CT where plenty of people weighed in on the presentation I gave to the group based on feedback from drivers received to that point.

Again, I don't have any other info on the marketing. It would be a question for the NARRC committee, who can be contacted via e-mail at:

committee AT narrc.com

I am the current Chair of the Drivers Committee - of which the majority of the work was done in the off-season.

[Greg Amy]

...but there was a NARRC-specific drivers meeting at LRP last year.
You mean the one that was held when many of the more-active drivers were at the IT Fest at Mid-Ohio?

No dog in this fight, but that whole situation pretty much left a raw taste in my mouth. And, to find that important decisions were made there makes it taste worse...

Like I said, no preference in this fight...Just sayin'... :shrug:

[dickita15]

This is correct. When driver feedback was solicited last year, many said that the money fund was not near their top priority in terms of what makes (or could make) the NARRC a great series.

Add to that the NARRC 'sanction' fee may have been keeping NARRC points events from joining with certain events at certain tracks - it was thought that a lower number might help us get ito some of those races.


But this change does nothing to address your second point Andy. The fee is still $6 per car it just goes into an administrative pit.

[lateapex911]

I was aware, as should anyone who's posting here, that the whole NARRC dealio was getting a good going over, and that drivers opinions were being sought. i also know that they started in the summer discussing ideas, and going over opinions for fall/winter decisions. I didn't really add anything because I haven't had a snowballs chance (in any place or weather) of winning diddley squat over the years...so I really thought I had nothing to add.

But, let's be fair, there WAS solicitation of opinions.

That said, it IS a big surprise to see the money fund vanish.

[dominojd]

But this change does nothing to address your second point Andy. The fee is still $6 per car it just goes into an administrative pit.

Oh but wait Dick $3 goes toward trophies and the banquet expenses. I guess this means the Banquet will be free to all Narrc participants, right and the winners in class will recieve a grandfather clock or something substancial as a tropy?

[Doc Bro]

I'll be glad to weigh in that I was all for better trophies and a money fund. Specifically I stated emphatically that the NARRC was our (IT) championship and it's prestige and credibility should be promoted and preserved. I was in direct conflict with a wing guy (FA..I think) who says the trophies don't matter and that he gives them to his crew. I feel that the opinions of the regional only classes should have more weight in regards to decisions made that effect a regional championship. Regional only classes have few other options. I apologize if I didn't hunt down every ITA driver for an opinion, but I do feel that the thoughts that I mentioned were well informed and would represent the thoughts of the people who would be impacted. I didn't approach the subject from the point of view of the competitors who had less than 50 points. I was proud of my $67 NARRC check...I asked Vic how it felt to be married to a professional racecar driver.

R

[gran racing]

Nice trophies matter to me. I still have my Memorial Day pimp chalice in the entry to my garage along with the bottle of champagne. I guess I just haven't won enough races yet?

[StephenB]

"EDIT" I have edited to keep the fire away :)

Does anyone know who the ITB driver Rep was?

Stephen Blethen

PS: I liked the check... It allowed me to legitimatly spend a few $$ on my car without the significant other argueing about it :)

[dominojd]

I was proud of my $67 NARRC check...I asked Vic how it felt to be married to a professional racecar driver.

R

Nobody's blaming you.

And like you said, 2006 I got something like $50 or so for finishing 5th in the NARRC Points before I cashed it I photo copied it to keep as sorta a trophy and was proud of it.

[dickita15]

Oh but wait Dick $3 goes toward trophies and the banquet expenses. I guess this means the Banquet will be free to all Narrc participants, right and the winners in class will recieve a grandfather clock or something substancial as a tropy?
I see no smiley faces in you post Joe so I must assume you are serious. I must also assume our drivers committee know exactly what we are getting with regard to a better banquet and trophies for the tripling of the administrative fee from $2,333 to $7 grand.
I also assume that they have a projected budget for the $7000 that is being taxed for Marketing and Advertising.
I assume that none of our representatives would allow an extra $11,655 to be taken out of the drivers pockets without knowing the benefit.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The reason I posted all of those links is because there was PLENTY of opportunity to know that the NARRC committee was interested in your opinion. Heck, you could have watched the whole meeting on video and weighed in. You could have also so that they recruited volunteers that night and many people stepped up.

The reps are 'drivers advocates'. We just relayed the majority desires of the members who cared to provide feedback. The NARRC committee makes teh decisions. The net of the decision was such:

Pull back the payouts and put the money into significantly better trophies and spend some money on the promotion of the series. How they implement that is up to them. I hope they do a good job.

Trust me guys, I probably got the 2nd largest NARRC check last year (SM #1) and it was nice. I have a bit to lose (~$500) but most drivers said it wasn't important to them in terms of driving their dollar to racing or the prestige of the series. If this is a real problem, write the committee.

And here comes the preachy part. Get involved when asked or don't get THAT upset when things are not to your liking. I may not be 100% ok with how certain things turned out, but my voice was heard. No decisons were made at that LRP meeting, just the infrastructure laid out and volunteers taken - and the info was readily available.

On the $6 - Since I am not in charge I can only hope they do right with the money in terms of their goals (trophies, expenses and promotion). If not, it should be the first item on our list of 'fixes' for 2009.

[dickita15]

Ok Andy, I reread the links and though I did not review the video again I cannot see anywhere where it was suggested that we take over $11,000 of the driver’s money and put it into an administrative slush fund with no published budget and only the vaguest of goals. Was any driver actually asked if they wanted this money to be taken from the drivers for this purpose?
You I thought I was kind of involved in this club and I never heard a word of this taxation scheme.

[StephenB]

The reason I posted all of those links is because there was PLENTY of opportunity to know that the NARRC committee was interested in your opinion. Heck, you could have watched the whole meeting on video and weighed in. You could have also so that they recruited volunteers that night and many people stepped up.



ANDY,

Was this in Pit Talk at any point? I looked back and couldn't find it. Was this posted in Sports Car as this is our official comunication to the members of the club? Was a generic mailing sent out to all the NARRC Finishers, I don't recall getting one. I will refrain from commenting further until I here back on where it was published because I legitimatly could have missed my invite to attend or comunication that anything was going to change.


The reps are 'drivers advocates'. .

ANDY,

Who was the Driver Advocate for ITB? If you are unsure who do I contact to get a copy of the meeting minutes that would have that listed. I'd be curious to see the meeting minutes regardless to see who was present and what was discussed. Were you present at the meeting?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Here are the people who volunteered to represent you:

> ITS, ITB, ITR
> David P Maynard
> Hudson, NH 03051-3769
> [email protected]

> ITA, T3
> Robert A Breault
> Higganum, CT 06441-4093
> [email protected]

> SSM, ITC
> Kyle Disque
> Waban, MA 02468
> Email: [email protected]

The initial meeting minutes are published on the web via the video. The second meeting when the ideas were presented and debated was at the NARRC portion of the NeDiv meetings in Rocky Hill.

Dick - I do not know exactly how the committee decided to appropriate the funds once the decision was made to pull back the payouts and 'increase' the trophies and try and promote the series more. I can tell you that I have NEVER felt more like the PTB wanted to design the best series for the participants so I have (blind) confidence that they will do right by us drivers. Is that stupid? Maybe, but we can always make changes in the future. What I did was volunteer to coordinate the driver feedback and present it to the committee.

I have asked them to outline their plan for the money and will report back when I can.

[RSTPerformance]

I have asked them to outline their plan for the money and will report back when I can.

First, thank you for the above...

I do recal your efforts Andy (and others) at getting driver/member feedback. The 07 season saw several mistakes and you and others stepped in to fix the problems for 08. NOBODY should forget that... you did an excellent job at getting this series back in the right direction.

However with that said I do have to admit that I do not recal any discussions with anyone (including but not limited to past champions, current contenders or active members whom volunteer time) reguarding the significant changes to the financial structure of the series.

I certainly hope that the money payout comes back in 09

(Sarcasm/Anger mode on) but for this year I will just hope that the funds are spent in similar ways as in the past. This would mean that classes with more entrants (more financial investment) are recognized for the class effort... Obviosly free dinners will be at the year end banquet for all class winners and a guest (that used to be the norm in the past even with the payout)... Dinners shall be as follows:
ITA gets nice steaks or samon,
ITS gets cod or chicken
ITB gets burgers and hotdogs with tomato and lettuce!!!
ITC gets grilled cheese with ham...
Then those Open wheel classes get to share a PB&J :017: (Sarcasm/Anger mode off)

Raymond "ProIT here I come" Blethen

[dickita15]

I can tell you that I have NEVER felt more like the PTB wanted to design the best series for the participants so I have (blind) confidence that they will do right by us drivers.

yea right, "together we can":(

It is the natural order of Bureaucratic organizations to grow larger and become more inefficient. I bleed SCCA but we are the second most bureaucratic group in the free world. The great thing about NARRC was it was simple. It was an overlay to the existing regional races in Area 1. The entire administration was two half hour meetings a year. Now we have a $14,000 tax with no oversight. Do we really need more NARRC tee shirts? They tried this with NESCCA nationals, it failed, and I fought that too.

[Tkczecheredflag]

My two cents.

Watching the NARRC points and Money Fund to see who has qualified for the Prize Money, has always been part of my "update routine" at the NARRC site. I collected four or five checks over the years - I have photocopied ALL of them - folded them and either inserted them in the trophy or attached them to the rear of the plaque - a great momento.

I am a big believer that after this "racing thing" is all said and done, all we have are the videos tapes, the "hardware", the photo copies of a couple of checks, and maybe the opportunity to talk a little trash.

[dominojd]

I see no smiley faces in you post Joe so I must assume you are serious. I must also assume our drivers committee know exactly what we are getting with regard to a better banquet and trophies for the tripling of the administrative fee from $2,333 to $7 grand.
I also assume that they have a projected budget for the $7000 that is being taxed for Marketing and Advertising.
I assume that none of our representatives would allow an extra $11,655 to be taken out of the drivers pockets without knowing the benefit.

Come on now is anything I ever say NOT Sarcastic? :D

[StephenB]

[QUOTE=StephenB;264170]ANDY,

Was this in Pit Talk at any point? I looked back and couldn't find it. Was this posted in Sports Car as this is our official comunication to the members of the club? Was a generic mailing sent out to all the NARRC Finishers, I don't recall getting one. I will refrain from commenting further until I here back on where it was published because I legitimatly could have missed my invite to attend or comunication that anything was going to change.

QUOTE]

Does anyone know this answer? I have posted it a few times without any responses.

Andy B. mentioned... QUOTE "there was PLENTY of opportunity to know that the NARRC committee was interested in your opinion” but I haven't seen anything anywhere that proves that. Internet is a great way to seek out a particular demographic of people but a VERY POOR way to seek feedback from our members. It is not the official communication of SCCA or NERSCCA. I am not trying to get anyone upset but no one seems to know the answer and as you can see I myself am getting a bit frustrated.

Stephen

PS: I do think that some people have put in a huge effort in the past few years to make IT better that can't go unnoticed. I do thank those like Andy and others. I do often wonder if they are truly looking at feedback from all members even those that are not part of the Internet community like myself and this is why I feel as though at this time I should speak up with my limited internet opportunities that I have.

[dickita15]

I went to the NER Club Racing Board meeting last night and asked publicly the Chairman, Serge, two questions. One did NER two reps vote for this and was told yes, and second what were they thinking.
The meeting last night was told by Serge that Andy made a nice presentation at the NARRC meeting that proposed that what was voted, abolishing the points fund and spend the money on a combination of the banquet and advertising, was what the majority of drivers wanted. Serge did not seem to care much personally so he said as it appeared that Andy had done the research he voted for what Andy said the majority of drivers wanted. I found it interesting that Peter Roberts said he told the meeting that this is what the NESCCA national series tried for year and it failed.
My question then Andy is how many drivers knew what you were going to propose before the NARRC meeting. I do not see any evidence that the proposal was shared with the IT community before it was presented.
Andy, I do not question your motives, but I am pretty disappointed in the manner that this abomination was perpetrated.

[K_Anderson]

personally I don't care about the money as do many I believe. Winning a $100 at the end of the year has no importance. I would rather receive a Trophy that I would be proud to display. Low subscribed classes should not recieve the same awards as the large.

I would like to see people winning real trophy's, but then that opens up another pandoras box. How do you justify giving out a fancy trophy for a 3 car class. Some of the classes barely have enough cars to declare a loser.

They should have trophys that go up in quality as the car count increases for the race.

bottom line, we are not in this for the prize money, But that doesn't mean we should not receive a cash payout or quality trophies equal to what the payout would have been.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Wow. That is all I have to say. Abomination Dick? Kinda strong I think.

All I did was present the feedback that the drivers reps collected. I personally wanted to pay out only to the top 3 and not water down the payouts. Self serving? Sure, but not what I was told the majority wanted.

The NARRC committee took the info and voted. All we did was collect the data. If not enough drivers were contacted, then the drivers advocates didn't do the job they volunteered to do.

Stephen, I do not think that anything was posted in Pit Talk...but it would have needed to be posted in all 4 regional mags as this is a NARRC thing. Could it have been done? You bet.

The NARRC committee designed a plan and some people stepped up to help. I think this is a case of you shooting at the messenger. All I did was collect the info and present it to the NARRC committee in public forum for all to hear and debate.

Could it have been done better? Always. Write your letts to the NARRC committee. I guess late feedback is better than none at all.

[dickita15]

Wow. That is all I have to say. Abomination Dick? Kinda strong I think.

Maybe so, but it is my opinion and few people have accused me of not expressing my opinion.
What has been missing from this thread is a single driver posting “I knew what was being presented and supported it” or even “although I was not in favor I knew what was being presented before the meeting”



Could it have been done better? Always. Write your letts to the NARRC committee. I guess late feedback is better than none at all.

I will be writing the NARRC committee but I resent the implication that I and others have been derelict by being late in our input. From my knowledge there was no way to know that abolishing the points fund to create a unbudgeted administrative slush fund was under consideration so there was no way to give input on the subject.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess we just are on different wavelengths. All that was done was a gathering of feedback and the presentation of said feedback in a public forum at the NARRC meetings. Opportunity to weigh in on that feedback - and provide additional feedback was certainly there at that meeting.

If I were on the NARRC committee, I guess I would resent the implacation that they have created a pocket of money that is guaranteed to be wasted in an irresponsible way. How about we give them a chance before we judge? Question the issue? No problem but it seems like in your mind it's a done deal and can't be successful.

I'm done. Seems like a lot of pre-judgement here. Having said that, I guess I don't see why the money fund couldn't be put back should the majority ask for it. I will be voting for top-3 only and more money for the people who podium in their class.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Andy - At the NARRC Banquet, I do remember you mentioning of "top 3 in points" qualify for the Money Fund, but I have no recollection of "we are abolishing the fund", being mentioned - Did I miss that?

It looks like we sent out 90 checks last year for 2007. Since this group of 90 are very representative of drivers contributing to the Money Fund (by that I mean we are registering for many of the events and accumulating points to qualify for the money), they are probally very representative of the "mind set", to continue the fund or not. Did anyone reach out to he group of 90 (the biggest NARRC supporters) for their input?

I beleive that at least 2 drivers from ITA (1/3 of the money fund drivers) were not represented at the first meeting. I got to the meeting late - don't recall the ground swell for "no more money fund " being mentioned, and other than the NARRC Banquet, do not recall a summary of "action points" being shared with the larger group - I certainly didn't hear "no money" at the Banquet - Did I miss that too?. This was the only summary I was aware of.

Not to step on K_Anderson but the NARRC Championship Trophy's that I have are awesome already - Just a pain to keep polishing :D.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Guys,

I suggest you contact the NARRC Committe and your individual drivers rep if you feel like you were not 'heard'.

Each group had a volunteer who was supposed to reach out to the competitors and weigh back in to me so I could summarize the feedback. Those volunteers are listed in this thread.

[dickita15]

Andy, I am sorry if not agreeing with what you and your committee have done hurts you feelings. I am sure you operated in good faith but from where I sit I see no evidence that this plan was put out for input. I watched the tape, I read the threads, and personally had no problem with any of the items discussed in those forums, including abolishing the points fund assuming the assessment went away with the fund. I think for you to say that we had a chance to go to the meeting to argue against this is disingenuous when I can find no one who knew this was a proposal.
One of the wonders of the NARRC series is that it has always run with the smallest possible overhead and administration. I know firsthand how out of large and out of control administrations can get despite good people with good intentions. NARRC has always been a refreshing exception. What do you expect me to expect when the funding is increase by a factor of 6 and no budget or guidance offered. Why should I not believe that we will end up with $14,000 worth of NARRC tee shirts?

[dominojd]

Guys,

I suggest you contact the NARRC Committe and your individual drivers rep if you feel like you were not 'heard'.



Rob,

I am not happy with the Narrc Money payout fund being dissolved.

Thanks for your concern.

[cpm motorsports]

Not to step on K_Anderson but the NARRC Championship Trophy's that I have are awesome already - Just a pain to keep polishing :D.




Always wondered what Tim did in his spare time. :cool:

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dick,

Then let me change my phrasing for you. I delivered a REPORT at the NARRC Town Hall in CT based on data collected by drivers reps. The NARRC Committee did with that info what they thought the drivers wanted.

Joe,

If you don't think this is a decent medium to RECEIVE info, then don't use it to GIVE your feedback. Send in your feedback and reasoning to the NARRC committee at the address provided in the thread.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Let me ask Dick this:

When you were on the NARRC committee, what did you do to 'publish' your ideas prior to the following years implementation?

I don't recall any in recent memory, and certainly not last year, hence the new driver involvment.

[dickita15]

No Andy we did not publish an agenda however over the ten years or so that I sat in those meetings in a couple of capacities we had proposals that affect a number of racers and often we did not take action when requests were submitted until we were sure that the affected drivers knew about it.
You said feedback on this issue was collected and reference 2 threads and the meeting video which do not mention the subject, then you say it was the responsibility of the your committee members, the individual group reps to get the feedback.
I am still waiting for someone to say: “I knew what was being presented and supported it” or even “although I was not in favor I knew what was being presented before the meeting”.

[dominojd]

Joe,

If you don't think this is a decent medium to RECEIVE info, then don't use it to GIVE your feedback. Send in your feedback and reasoning to the NARRC committee at the address provided in the thread.

This is a great medium to reach people. I really wish I would have been reached before reading this info on the NARRC web page. All it would have taken would to send a simple email to all NARRC particpants in favor not in favor and if it came back the way it is then we would just live with it because appearently the masses agreed with the outcome.

And why Andy do you always take stuff like this as a personal attack? No one is attacking you. We are actually greatful that you and others voluteer to deal with the BS that goes on behind the scenes.

Chill dude before you make yourself sick. :)

[Andy Bettencourt]

How can someone know what is being presented until it's presented to someone?

The job of the driver advocates was to collect the data and present it to the committee and members at large. It wasn't a 'proposal'. The committee heard the info, heard the debate on said info and made a decision.

Like I said, send your thoughts to the NARRC committee with your ideas on how to make the process better. I am sure there will be some voluteers who will happily implement the new plan next year. I know I will.

[Doc Bro]

WOW!! I guess I need to fire up the old laptop more often. First, let me say I as a driver's rep had no idea that the money fund was dissolved. Second, I am not in favor of such a thing and argued emphatically to preserve the prestige of the NARRC series (money bringing some prestige to the series), thirdly, there was more than just IT drivers reps weighing in... the 1 of 1 guys had some strong opinions. Fourthly, the agenda of the commitee was not known...it seemed that we were reporting in a fact finding manner to the comittee. Fifthly, I was present at the awards banquet thinking that I might have actually won something...(how niave am I?), meaning I am all in favor of trophies and money. Sixthly, I doubt I'll ever volunteer for something in the SCCA again.....

R

[dickita15]

Rob, thank you for serving on this committee. There is no question in my mind that Narrc got off track a little in the last couple of years. I don’t think there was any bad intent by the Narrc committee but with the environment getting harder and harder to put on races I think the Narrc committee tried to structure the rule to protect their region’s franchises. Almost all of the reforms recommended by the committee and enacted by the Narrc committee seem very positive to me. It is sad that you did not enjoy the experience, it seems that a lot of good work was accomplished, be proud of that.
Andy, it would seem from Rob’s statements that the ITA rep did not even know about the plan to abolish the points fund and use the money for administrative purposes.
A couple of simple questions.
Was the idea to abolish the payouts and use the money for other purposes proposed to the Narrc committee in your presentation as Serge told me or is he mistaken?
If so whose idea was it to propose this change to the Narrc committee to do so?
What group of drivers feedback was this proposal based on?

[dominojd]

WOW!! I guess I need to fire up the old laptop more often. First, let me say I as a driver's rep had no idea that the money fund was dissolved. Second, I am not in favor of such a thing and argued emphatically to preserve the prestige of the NARRC series (money bringing some prestige to the series), thirdly, there was more than just IT drivers reps weighing in... the 1 of 1 guys had some strong opinions. Fourthly, the agenda of the commitee was not known...it seemed that we were reporting in a fact finding manner to the comittee. Fifthly, I was present at the awards banquet thinking that I might have actually won something...(how niave am I?), meaning I am all in favor of trophies and money. Sixthly, I doubt I'll ever volunteer for something in the SCCA again.....

R

Rob you may not have been persuasive enough in your arguments. I think if you would have showed up with a certain Jack Handle they would have taken you more seriously.:D

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dick,

Yes. It was presented that evening as an idea that a majority of the responding drivers wanted. The 'top 3 only' was also presented as an idea some drivers wanted. I believe that led into a splinter discussion on trophies, the cost of 'weekly' trophies and the logistics of managing any yearly trophy plan.

The feedback to abolish the money fund wasn't from one person, it was derived from the feedback of those who responded. Even though it wasn't something I wanted (again, I wanted to go to a top-3 and make those payouts more substantial), I was obligated to report the info as it was my duty.

Just because Rob's group didn't bring it up doesn't mean it wasn't there. If we want to weigh feedback more based on subscription and conrtibution, fine by me!

Patullo for ITA / IT7 drivers rep in 2009!

[dickita15]

Andy I guess I just don’t understand what process you used to obtain this feedback. I read the threads, I watched the meeting on u tube, and I knew Rob was the rep for my race group. I did not reach out to him because nothing I heard or read seemed objectionable and honestly I have a pretty full plate with the club right now with driving, working and special projects.
I just am trying to figure out where this idea to fundamentally change the Narrc committee structure from a simple efficient operation to one that has the potential to spawn a cumbersome expensive infrastructure came from.
If you compiled and presented the input from the driver’s reps can you say where this proposal came from?
Serge said at the Narrc meeting this was presented as being the will of the drivers. I am trying to find out if that was a reasonable representation and so far I have no evidence to back that up.

[Doc Bro]

OK, The reason I said I said I would no longer volunteer was because as a voice (I) we were not heard or ignored. Also, unless my memory is failing I don't remember any discussion of the abolishment of the money fund. I was never under the impression that the NARRC series was in line for any sort of major overhaul, in fact, the meetings seemed to be geared toward minor tweaks to make the series more subscribed. I also remember lots of discussion about the number of events a driver can miss and the depth of the pointing process in the field. It seems that there may have been an agenda off camera that I wasn't aware of. As far as my group bringing it up; I brought up what was relayed to me as important....most driver's I spoke to had no major changes other than what I mentioned. Why was something that wasn't broke fixed??


R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob - you and I may not think it was broken, but a lot of people thought it could be better I guess.

Dick - Here is what I did:

I put together a very long and generic sheet of topics that each rep was to use to trigger feedback on (based on the LRP town hall mostly). Was more of ideas to start a thought process, than a firm outline. Things like, points, events, tracks, trophies, quantity of events, minimum events, quality of events, double vs. single, structure of events, consolodation of run groups, maximizing track time, etc.

I presented the varies pieces of feedback to the open forum. The attendees debated. The NARRC committee made their decisions at a later meeting that I did not attend.

[Tkczecheredflag]

So now we have at least one (1) Drivers Rep (Rob) and one (1) driver (Tim/me) who were actually at the first NARRC drivers meeting at LRP in August, as well as the NARRC Banquet and in conjunction with Andy who reported at that Forum, and as far as we all can remember there was no mention of Abolishing the Money Fund.

It would appear that the system for abolishing the fund was broken, not the fund itself.

[dickita15]

Okay Andy, help me out here, your only report to the Narrc committee was at the November open forum and you were not at the Narrc March meeting where this was voted?
Did your report say that the points fund should be abolished and that the money should be used half for banquet and year end trophies and half for advertising and promotion.
I am really trying to figure out how this happened.

[Andy Bettencourt]

My 'report' included the feedback that was given to me from the drivers reps (all of them, not just Rob). That was one of the data points.

If you want to know anything else about the decision, ask the people who made it.

[dickita15]

Okay Andy if I understand you abolishing the points fund was one of the recommendations in your report on behalf of the drivers committee?
Can you tell me where that recommendation came from?
Was this at the November open forum or at a Narrc meeting?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't say 'you' Dick. *I* didn't abolish anything. I am not on the NARRC committee. I am just the deliverer of collected information.

Yes, it was one of the recommendations. The recommedantions, various feedback and open debate were all delivered at the NARRC portion of the open forum in November.

I don't recall specifically what group or what drivers but I do remember thinking to myself that it kinda stinks that the people who are not 'into' the money are from lower subscribed groups where payout is very small. As is traditional in NER and NeDiv, no matter the size or your class or run group, you get equal time both on the track and in the rules making process.

[dickita15]

Thank you Andy, I really am trying to figure out what happened. As might have figured out I think this is a bad idea.:) Not the part about abolishing the points fund, I don’t care about that. If the proposal had been stop the payouts, reduce the assessment to $2 and upgrade trophies I would have said fine but what has happened here I can’t get behind.

I have talked to some of the people who voted on this and the feedback I am getting is they did what the drivers wanted. My argument is the process was flawed.

It is unfortunate that you can’t remember where the idea came from or how it was vetted. I hope to learn more about that if anyone can remember. The Narrc committee does not have the structure to effectively impellent this program. That is the beauty of the Narrc committee, it is uncomplicated.

Oh and I said “Okay Andy if I understand you abolishing the points fund was one of the recommendations in your report on behalf of the drivers committee?” I see no problem with the word you in that context, do you?:shrug:

[Gary L]

Oh and I said “Okay Andy if I understand you abolishing the points fund was one of the recommendations in your report on behalf of the drivers committee?” I see no problem with the word you in that context, do you?:shrug:

I realize I've got absolutely no business in this discussion, but I couldn't help but observe what appears to be some miscommunication, possibly based on lack of punctuation.

Maybe this would work better:

"Okay Andy, if I understand you, abolishing the points fund was...."

I'm thinking Andy read your original statement as:

"Okay Andy, if I understand, your abolishing the points fund was...."

Jeez, what in Hell am I doing... I need to get out of here and get to work on the Volvo!!!

[dickita15]

Gary you are absolutely right, a comma would have helped. Didn’t see that, I knew what I wrote, and I usually try to be punctual.:rolleyes:
I don’t mean to crucify Andy here and I appreciate the fact that he is willing to stand up and say what he knows.:happy204:
My problem is the people who vote said “Andy said this is what the drivers want”. I am just trying to figure out haw Andy got stuck in that situation.

[Doc Bro]

Seeing how all this has unfolded is really dissappointing.....

I was told by an "old salt" who raced in the SCCA with his brother many moons ago the politics are what's killing the club....I guess some things will never change.

Socialism masking as democracy.

R

[TimM ITB]

Some observations based upon the preceding comments in this thread:

- Since the NARRC really is a driver's series, and since there is quite a bit of controversy over this issue, why not simply put any changes on "hold" until further notice? We can simply decide that this is what we want, and the NARRC committee ought to be able to implement, yes? We are only One race into the season, so this shouldn't be a major issue with anyone at this point in time.

- We need to remember that all of the folks in this deal are VOLUNTEERS and that there is often quite a bit of verbal "stuff" thrown in their direction. I gotta believe that all of these folks are well intended, and some times, even the best of intentions turn out to have unintended negative results.

- Pretty much everyone uses email these days, yes? Why not print up a short notice to be given out at registration at all upcoming events through July, with the content of the notice being..........."if you want to have input on the NARRC series rules, schedule, points, prizes, etc, please fill in your name, email address, etc. From time to time you will be asked for input on various issues."
Then, we have a mass email go out to the NARRC drivers who have said YES they want to have input, we ask for input, and make decisions based on that. How much better can that get? Direct input into the decision making process. If you don't add input, your right to bitch is gone, in my opinion.

- A system like this (email input and communication) takes a lot of the mystery out of the decision making process, and takes our volunteer NARRC committee folks off the hook for the most part........which I would think that they would appreciate. It also gives every contributing driver more of an "ownership" role in the entire series...........and THAT is always a good thing.

my 2 cents, and thanks for listening.

Tim M

[dickita15]

You know Rob there may be some truth in some of that, but I don’t believe anyone is pushing agendas that they know are wrong. I strongly believe that everyone involved in this is doing what they feel is best for the club. Not a self serving motive in the bunch, well maybe Joe.:D

[dominojd]

I strongly believe that everyone involved in this is doing what they feel is best for the club. Not a self serving motive in the bunch, well maybe Joe.:D

See dick your punctuation was wrong again the smilley should have been more like this:eek:. ;)

[Doc Bro]

You know Rob there may be some truth in some of that, but I don’t believe anyone is pushing agendas that they know are wrong. I strongly believe that everyone involved in this is doing what they feel is best for thier part of the club. Not a self serving motive in the bunch, well maybe Joe.:D


Fixed that Dick.

We've got to balance class size with input. There were guys in 1 of 1 classes voicing strong opinions about money fund etc. So they can have an amazing technicolor [champions'] dreamcoat to walk around the paddock in.....Hmmmm

R

[benspeed]

My read on this has always been that we are racing for the fun and memories, not money. Who gives a rats ass about $300?

I find it totally insulting to get a coffee mug for winning a race. I'd much rather get a dignified award of some kind. When I'm showing my grand kids my racing history I'd rather remember the event from a trophy. By the time I have grand kids $300 will buy you lunch at Burger King.

To those of you who have so many trophies you don't care about them anymore - don't be so arrogant to think the rest of us don't appreciate a quality award.

[Tkczecheredflag]

To those of you who have so many trophies you don't care about them anymore - don't be so arrogant to think the rest of us don't appreciate a quality award.

Why can't we have both (money and a decent trophy)? I remember getting my first NARRC check - It was $123.00 - I was proud to receive it. I purchased a tire with it.

[benspeed]

Because that's what we do now and both are sorta on the shabby side - lame money and lame awards.

[7racing]

We've got to balance class size with input. There were guys in 1 of 1 classes voicing strong opinions about money fund etc. So they can have an amazing technicolor [champions'] dreamcoat to walk around the paddock in.....Hmmmm

R

I hate this type of reasoning.

Every one of us pays the same amount for the same reward, regardless of the class size. If you want someone with only 1 person in their class have less input, allow them to PAY LESS into it. We keep going with class sizes as to whose voice is more important, but regradless of class size, we all PAY the same for the same benefit. You want a smaller subscribed class to have smaller trophies? Allow them to pay a smaller entry fee. Otherwise, it certainly smells to me (and them) like you are taking THEIR money for YOUR trophy.

BTW, I raced in a couple of classes last year (by raced, I mean I spent money on an entry fee....regradless of whether or not the car made the race :D ), which driver's rep would I go to? ITA or SPO? My guess would be ITA, as it seems SPO would have less opinion and input on the matter.

[K_Anderson]

I hate this type of reasoning.

Every one of us pays the same amount for the same reward, regardless of the class size. If you want someone with only 1 person in their class have less input, allow them to PAY LESS into it. We keep going with class sizes as to whose voice is more important, but regradless of class size, we all PAY the same for the same benefit. You want a smaller subscribed class to have smaller trophies? Allow them to pay a smaller entry fee. Otherwise, it certainly smells to me (and them) like you are taking THEIR money for YOUR trophy.



If you have a 3 car class maybe you should get a $5 trophy, but if there is 30 cars, I think it should be atleast a $50 trophy. Each classes money fund should pay for that classes trophy.

I personally do think that the winner of a 3 car class should never get the same trophy of the winner of large field of cars.
Let the trophy reflect the accomplishment. You want a bigger trophy, then race in more competitve class.

Kevin

[benspeed]

I agree with that logic - want to trophy to be proud of - race a more competitive class. But even the 3 car class winner should get better than a mug...

I put this proposal together - didn't get much play but hopefully got some ideas percolating:

The following is a recommendation to provide a higher level of driver satisfaction in how our club awards trophies to podium finishers. Podium finish is defined by 1st, 2nd or 3rd place. To earn a trophy you must beat at least one competitor or comply with the supplemental rules for each event or series.

Trophies should be defined as quality awards that indicate a finishing position in a motorsports event. Key chains, t-shirts, coffee mugs, beer steins are trinkets and do not reflect the level of time, effort and cost to finish in the top three positions of a very difficult and expensive sport.

Cost and effort – how can the club deliver quality awards in a cost effective manner that can be easily managed by each region hosting the race event?

Key assumptions:

1. During the Mini-Con conducted in 4Q 2007 drivers collectively expressed that they race for pride, accomplishment and trophies – not money.
2. The funds collected to pay out championship winners would be better spent on quality awards – this will increase driver satisfaction across a much wider group of race participants in our club.
3. Real trophies are difficult to move from one event to another and are hard to manage.
4. Drivers are tired of getting trophies – this applies to a small handful of men and women who consistently dominate a class. This is hardly applicable to the majority of driver participants and supports the premise that when a driver does achieve a podium finish it is difficult and should be handsomely acknowledged.
5. A trophy should create pride for the top three finishers of an event. (I remember a hard earned third place at Watkins Glen and I received a keychain. I had never been more insulted in my racing career than on that day – nothing would have been better. We do not want our club members feeling like this when they have accomplished a high finishing position.)



Recommendation:

· The NE regions that operate race events would collectively identify the number of trophies needed for one year of races. The regions would fund the purchase of the trophies for each of the race events each region conducts. The Club will need to work the Treasurers of each region to indentify a fair way to pro-rate payment for the trophies.
· All trophies would be purchased at the beginning of the race season and would be good quality. The trophies will not be custom made for each event, but will have a generic statement comparable to, “SCCA Northeast Racing Series – 2008, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place”.
· The information specific to each event will be managed as follows:
o A roll of stickers, similar to the tech stickers, will be purchased
o The sticker will include the name of the event, driver, region, race series, date, fastest time and finishing position
o The sticker would be filled out by the competitor or the trophy steward when the trophy is picked up at the event.
o The sticker would be adhered to the bottom of the trophy so that the competitor will have a reference of the event
· Each region or regions that conducts race events at the NE tracks will work with each track to find a suitable place to store the trophies at the track to minimize the difficulty of transporting the trophies. Or, a designated party (parties) will take responsibility for transporting trophies. Considering the number of haulers going to the track, the drivers will take some responsibility to help the event stewards. Since trophies are generic for the season, ensuring adequate trophies will be at the track is not as difficult and there will be fewer wasted trophies.
· Generic trophies can be re-used across a variety of club events with the trophy sticker on the bottom being the event specific identifier.
· Each region can participate in the selection of the upcoming season trophies at the NE mini-con
· One person will need to volunteer each season to manage the purchase of the trophies and the event stickers and shipping of trophies to each track for storage. (If the track agrees to store the trophies, otherwise the trophies will be shipped to each region’s trophy hauler.)

Actions need to implement the recommendations

· Number of trophies needed for a season determined (we may buy twice – 1st half of the season, evaluate inventory, buy more trophies for the second half of the season.)
· Race series to evaluate contribution of cash winnings to the trophy fund
· Existing trophy funds will be identified independently of cash winning funds
· The total amount of funds must be computed and a budget established
· Each region must be invoiced for their share of the trophy fund
· A trophy cost estimate will be requested of three companies for the best quote
· A sticker will be created and printed by a graphics print shop
· Trophy storage and transport for each region must be established
· Trophies and stickers must be purchased, distributed and stored

I would request that this recommendation be shared with the appropriate parties at each region for their collective input. I am willing to assist managing this across the NE region.

Respectfully submitted for your review.

[Doc Bro]

I hate this type of reasoning.

Every one of us pays the same amount for the same reward, regardless of the class size. If you want someone with only 1 person in their class have less input, allow them to PAY LESS into it. We keep going with class sizes as to whose voice is more important, but regradless of class size, we all PAY the same for the same benefit. You want a smaller subscribed class to have smaller trophies? Allow them to pay a smaller entry fee. Otherwise, it certainly smells to me (and them) like you are taking THEIR money for YOUR trophy.

BTW, I raced in a couple of classes last year (by raced, I mean I spent money on an entry fee....regradless of whether or not the car made the race :D ), which driver's rep would I go to? ITA or SPO? My guess would be ITA, as it seems SPO would have less opinion and input on the matter.


Jeremy,

I agree we all pay the same amount for an entry fee. Undebateable.

However, when I go to a meeting and I'm presenting a summary of feedback from my constituents and that discussion is going against a guy who races in an undersubscribed class, I disagree with your point. I'm presenting opionions or feedback from a class that has more participants on a given weekend that HIS class has all season. Why SHOULD that opinion carry as much weight as the ITA drivers' reps report? Furthermore that driver [or class] may be eligible for NATIONAL competition. IT is not as I know you know. Why should undersubscribed and national eligible classes have the same clout in a regional championship discussion???????

I fought hard for the 'regional only' guys and I'm proud of it.


R

[dickita15]

I am with Rob on this one particularly where the topic of conversation here is taking the points fund that has historically collected and distributed by class and appropriating it to ”improve” trophies for all the classes.

[benspeed]

Go Rob!

[Beran]

Let's see I never got asked for my opinion by anyone. I do know the ITB advocate but he also is an ITS advocate..... so he never asked me anything.
I agree with Tim... use a list of people and do some emailing.

Having said the above.... now I will give my opinion. I do not care about the $1,000+ or whatever the money is... it is small in the overall spend for a year. I DO care about a nice trophy... not a crazy big one but one that is nicer then a beer mug. I showed my 10 year old my "trophy" and she said "that's it? Why no trophy?" And I had to explain that is what the powers that be decided to give out this year. She did tell me she hoped next year that I would get a real trophy if I did well again. I had to agree with her. Don't get me wrong, I like the mugs... they could be swag... but for a year end trophy do not had out anything but a nice trophy.
I do also like swag.... Hey I like wearing T-Shirts and jackets and hats etc. especially if they are related to what I do or done.
I'd lower the fee and have less swag and small nice/real trophys. Also... please do not spend allot of money on the banquet... not all of us go to all of them.
My .02
Beran

[Tkczecheredflag]

I must admit - I am feeling a little embarassed now. All this time I thought the money fund award was for us to purchase nice trophies if we didn't like the trophy we recieved at a race from NARRC (I actually purchased the whole coffee mug set:rolleyes:).

Seriously - If you don't like the trophy presented (admittedly I don't always like them), use the Money Fund prize money you won to treat yourself to a trophy you think you deserve. The nice part about that method is, if you didn't get a trophy all year, you still get the money to purchase your own memento. A nice way for a driver to get something back and reward themself for a well fought season.

Keep in mind that if you just show up for 10 races at the various tracks you get 30 of the 50 points to "put you in the money" - Run in the top ten and you're in - pay day - Unless of course we were to go to top 3 only.