What's up with hood pins?

[gran racing]

Why do people use hood pins on IT cars that only participate in sprint races?

Jeff Lawton's recent hood pin (or lack there of?) incident got me thinking about this subject again. He's far from the only person who this happened to; even some great teams with real crew have experienced the hood in the windshield trick.

While walking around the grid at races (primarily thinking about the ARRC and IT Fest) I see many cars with hood pins have them taped so it doesn't hurt their car's aero. Not that makes the whole thing even more silly.

What advantages are there of having hood pins that outweight the disadvantages? In the beginning of my racing, I considered putting them on my car but only because I thought they were cool and would make my car one step closer to a real racecar.

[Knestis]

I've seen more than a few SS cars have hoods fly up after relatively minor nose-to-tail bumps. The '80s SSGT Camaros and Firebirds were particularly susceptible, it seemed like. The ADDITION of hood pins would help prevent that but replacing the stock latch with pins just moves the point of failure. They are lighter than the stock latch and cable, however.

K

[mbuskuhl]

Why do people use hood pins on IT cars that only participate in sprint races?



Personally, convenience and peace of mind. I don't have to reach in the drivers door, pull the release, then walk to the front of the car. Easier to just stand in front of the hood, pull 2 pins and lift. The stock latch is removed. There is also something about visually seeing 2 pins latched that gives a more comforting feeling than a hidden latch.

[erlrich]

And as Kirk mentioned, they are lighter than the stock latch and cable.

[gran racing]

How much lighter are they really? 1/2 lb?

[spnkzss]

Convienience for working on the car and added safety. If there is contact, I'm not worried about my hood pins releasing. I remove the factory release mechanism (actually just the pin from the hood that goes into the mechanism), but I leave the factory latch as added protection from me being a dumb a$$ and forgetting my hood pins. This way the hood comes up 3-4 inches only, scares me, makes me pull off, put hood pins back in, and continue. This instead of a broken windshield.

[mcgyverit]

When I was converting my SSC car to IT the inspection person at that time recommended it for a safety thing for the workers to be able to get under the hood in case it was damaged during an accident to put out a fire without having to go inside the car to release the cable. Seemed logical at the time.

[erlrich]

How much lighter are they really? 1/2 lb?
Just guessing, more like 2-3 lbs. when you add the cable and everything.

[spnkzss]

When I was converting my SSC car to IT the inspection person at that time recommended it for a safety thing for the workers to be able to get under the hood in case it was damaged during an accident to put out a fire without having to go inside the car to release the cable. Seemed logical at the time.

Speaking of that also, that is another reason I left the factory latch. Most engine fires you don't want to open the hood, and if you do you just want enough for the extinguisher to get in there. With the latch still in place it gives them just enough of a reminder that this is as far as you really want to go so you don't fuel the fire. Whether it works or not, again, it makes me feel better.

[924Guy]

When I was converting my SSC car to IT the inspection person at that time recommended it for a safety thing for the workers to be able to get under the hood in case it was damaged during an accident to put out a fire without having to go inside the car to release the cable. Seemed logical at the time.

I saw this happen last year on a Prod car... don't know 'bout y'alls cars, but I know it's very hard to get at the release latch inside the car with a cage in the way. Not to mention if the driver's non-responsive or trying to get the hell out of a burning car - don't want to have to send someone back in to open that latch! :)

Having seen plenty of Rabbit hood latches fail and lose the hood, and since I have a Rabbit hood latch - I'm happy with the pins, no guessing if the latch is secured or not!

[RSTPerformance]

My father had the hood open on him a few years ago. It cost him the NERRC and NARRC championship (All he needed was 2 points) in AS.

We now use the factory safety latch (incase the hood pins are forgot or fall out) and hood pins. We use the hood pins that stay attached to the hood and are in a slide so that they can not be lost and so that it is just part of the normal routine when closing the hood to ALWAYS put the hood pins in. We tape them on my brothers car because for some odd reason they tend to back out once in a while.

We don't use the original cable latch because of the location of our rollcage and to prevent the delay it would cause incase of an incident where someone whould have to go into the car to open the hood in an emergency.

Another suggestion for those with crew is to have a grid routine... We always retorque our wheels and check the truck, doors and hood to make sure they are securely fastened.

Raymond ":birra:to the first time I have ever said this: wow jeff, that was fast :p " Blethen

[tom_sprecher]

Hood pins are simple and foolproof as long as some fool doesn't forget to put the pins back in.

In the case of a serious wreck you can count on them holding the hood down and when needed allowing the easy release of the hood. Ask me how I know. ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jeff is as anal as anyone about his pre-race routine I am sure of it. The problem is that you must design your product around brain farts like this.

I would rather (and do) run just the factory latch than just HP's. You can SEE when it's not fastened properly.

[Greg Amy]

Jeff is extremely fastidious, but like anyone, is human. He KNOWS to not put the hood down without setting the hood pins, but as he relayed it to me he got distracted at the time by someone asking him something at that moment. The rest....well....

This is a common problem in general aviation, where a pilot is doing a pre-flight check and gets distracted. He misses something important, like securing a baggage door and engine cowling, and it departs the airplane on take-off, sometimes causing accidents. This is why checklists are important, and why if you get distracted you should start your checks again from the top. It's a hard lesson to learn.

On this same topic, I caught some photos from the SR20 forum about a guy in a Neon at Mid-Ohio last weekend. He tagged the SE-R in front of him, which damaged the nose of the car and ripped off his bumper and, apparently, disengaged the hood as well. This may be yet another example of how pins can (should?) be used as a supplementary method of securing the
hood, rather than the primary method:

http://www.sr20forum.com/road-racing/229182-nasa-mid-ohio-4-11-4-13-a.html

[trhoppe]

I've never thought about leaving the safety latch and hood pins, but getting rid of the release cable. That sounds like what I'm going to do.

-Tom

[itracer]

I use a cable on my hood pins and hang them on the part that goes through the hood when it is open. That way, I cannot close the hood without touching the pins.

[mom'sZ]

One reason I always thought might have had to do with the allowance was the fact that as a former body man, I know one of the more difficult tasks of repairing a front end collision was getting the hood latch to line up and work correctly. Many times if it isn't just perfect it doesn't work very well. I figured a lot of guys said f___ it and installed pins instead. The sheet metal on your average race car doesn't always line up perfect.
The saftey workers being able to open the hood easily with out having to fish around inside of the car also sounds pretty valid.
Andy Rowe

[Daryl]

I've replaced the latches on all my cars with hood pins because I don't want to have the cheapy plastic release handle break at the most inopportune time and I spend more time dorking around trying to open my hood than actually tuning the car between sessions. Call me paranoid but the fewer things that can go wrong, the fewer things that will go wrong.

As a matter of routine I replace the retainers in the pins when I open the hood so that I can't shut the hood until the pins are removed, in my hands and fresh in my mind so that I pin the hood without distraction.

[JamesB]

With the VW, the hood release in the car is already impossible to get to without opening the door. Add a roll cage and even relocated it would be even harder to get to. So that was removed and pins where installed making it easy to open the hood without entering the drivers compartment. I personally dont trust the OEM VW catch to start with so it further reenforced my decision on pins.

And last but not lease, I will never tape the pins, I see no use in it. they do not create enough areo drag compared to the winshield of my car.

[MMiskoe]

To avoid the trouble of having to use the OE hood release, I have a safety wire loop that sticks out from under the hood so you can release it from the outside. (same for the rear hatch).

On a car that had hood pins I made up a short lanyard for them so if they were not in, it was more obvious to see them dangling down the front of the car. This is after I pulled a "Jeff" and broke the hood & windshield.

For those how haven't done this yet, it gives ZERO warning.

[Speed Raycer]

We tape the pins on Mcgyverits Neon... not to help aero, but to keep the pins in the holes ;)

[mom'sZ]

This is after I pulled a "Jeff" and broke the hood & windshield.

For those how haven't done this yet, it gives ZERO warning.

Yeah .... and having been in a car when it happened (not driving, nor during a race or even a race car) it is like someone turned the sun off. I mean holy crap I can't see!!! It takes a second to realize what happen and you need to stick your head out the window or something FAST! I can't imagine it happening while turning a wheel in anger.

[NutDriverRighty]

I was driving a former Toyota Celebrity Challenge Celica GT-S in driver's school and forgot the hood pins. Luckily, the hood flew back and completely off! Bystanders said that it reached 30-40' in the air. Knocked down the #3 brake marker at T1 at Savannah. Quite embarassing. After looking at the hinge, seems Toyota might have designed it to do this. We were able to hold the hinge in place and hammer it closed again.

[dave parker]

"Hood Pins are the way that we get to see who is paying attention and who is not."
said to me by a very long time racer who shall remain nameless after a windshield was broken by a hood at test day at Summit Point (it was his windshield).
Ever since then I personally check my pins on the grid before the five minute warning.
We are all human and make mistakes, the key is to not make the same mistake twice.

cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion

[NutDriverRighty]

One caveat from a corner worker. If you see flames under the hood and there is not a slew of corner workers, all with 10-pounders in their hands OR the fire truck there, DO NOT OPEN THE HOOD!! You could give the enclosed fire the breeze it needs to blow back into your face. A toasted engine is a whole lot cheaper to replace than a bunch of my skin (although a new engine would certainly be prettier!)

[lateapex911]

IF I had a front opening hood, I would leave the stock "Up two inches" safety catch thingy in place...what could it weigh, 12oz? IF for some reason the hood pins fail, the worst case scenario is extra hood drag. better than missing a race, and buying a new hood and windshield.

[JLawton]

I just pulled the stock latch mechanism from the parts car. Weighs far less than a pound. I'm going to hang a strap out the front of the hood to release the first latch and still keep the lever for the secondary latch.

Plus, it will be more aerodynamic!! :D


Technically, taping hood pins for aerodynamics is illegal.........But taping them to keep them in is OK!! ;)

[Gary L]

Technically, taping hood pins for aerodynamics is illegal.........But taping them to keep them in is OK!! ;)

I am of the opinion that taping hood pins for aerodynamics on an IT car is the stupidest damned thing I've ever heard, illegal or not. :)

Back to the more serious discussion... I can see my hood pin cable tethers from the driver's seat, but only if the pins are installed. If I don't see the cables, I don't leave the grid.

[tom_sprecher]

IF I had a front opening hood, I would leave the stock "Up two inches" safety catch thingy in place...what could it weigh, 12oz? IF for some reason the hood pins fail, the worst case scenario is extra hood drag. better than missing a race, and buying a new hood and windshield.

Gotta love rear opening hoods, they almost make it a non-issue. :)

[trobbins]

The guy in the multi colored Neon on the SR20 website is one of our racing friends from Waterford Hills here in Mi . I've raced with him many times .
That's not usually his style .


BTW .
We use hood pins on our cars because that is what came on them .
Actuall I think they are much safer than a stock hood latch .
Also if the stock cable breaks it is a pain in the rear to get the hood opened .
I've been there .

[StephenB]

I do tape my hoodpins because I came in on one run and 1 pin had slid down and was no longer in place. (I have the type of hood pins that are on a slide rather than removable this way they cannot be lost.) I am also paranoid because of what Raymond said about my fathers loss of the NARRC and NERRC championship. Some may think it is for Aero but I doubt that anybody is truely taping them for perfomance, we unfourtunatly do not reach the speeds nor do we have light enough cars that would benefit from this type of advantage!

[tderonne]

So what would work better at Daytona on a Grand Am Cup Mustang: 4 hood pins (all at the front), or the stock latch?

Not 100% sure as I never tried it with the stock latch, but I do know 160 MPH will rip the hood, pins, and parts of the radiator support right off.

The pins allowed the structure of the hood to lift about and inch. There was a gap between the surface of the hood and the inner structure where the pins were. That inch at the front edge allowed enough wind under it to rip it right off. (HORRIBLE aero of the S197 Mustang didn't help.)

Moral of of the story is that you have to do your homework.

[joeg]

I tape my hood pins' lanyards.

They can cause the pin to pull out.

Pins are recommended for emergency crew situations. I like them because they are light.

[tom91ita]

Speaking of that also, that is another reason I left the factory latch. Most engine fires you don't want to open the hood, and if you do you just want enough for the extinguisher to get in there. With the latch still in place it gives them just enough of a reminder that this is as far as you really want to go so you don't fuel the fire. Whether it works or not, again, it makes me feel better.

i had the engine oil fire at mid-o at last year's IT fest.

i think hood pins are a good idea. i was not even aware i had the problem until i stopped. and when i realized what was going on, i was focused on getting out and would not want to be bothered with having to release the hood, etc.

i will have always have hood pins for easy access if the workers want it.

i have also adopted a practice of only stopping on pit lane after a race where i see a fire bottle. you just don't know.

[924Guy]

Am I the only one here who finds it amusing that most of those citing a major preference for hood pins over stock latches are VW's or of VW descent??

[spnkzss]

Am I the only one here who finds it amusing that most of those citing a major preference for hood pins over stock latches are VW's or of VW descent??

I don't currently run a VW, but have in the past, and I can say that the hood release is jsut about stupid. On one of the cars you actually have to PUSH the release back down since there was no spring return. If you didn't push it far enough down then the hood wouldn't stay latched. That sounds like the best example for hood pins.

Man am I glad I don't run VWs. :rolleyes:

[rhygin]

I am aiming for the best of both worlds.... I have the cable and such removed, but have the factory safety latch and hood pins...

[tom91ita]

might be time for a new thread but....

has anyone used these hood pins?

http://www.aerocatch.com/index.html

http://www.aerocatch.com/images/ani3.gif

[JLawton]

For those that have the stock latch and the pull cable out the front of the hood (I hear Miata's use this for trunks a lot) what did you use to attach to the pull cable and how did you do it?

[Greg Amy]

...what did you use to attach to the pull cable and how did you do it?
Most people use the factory cable.

Remove it from its sheathing, connect it to the lock using the existing OE end/attachment, and cut the other end to the desired length. Loop the cut end on itself to give you a pull handle and either duct-tape it or use a cable crimp...replacements available from any dealer... - GA

[MMiskoe]

For those that have the stock latch and the pull cable out the front of the hood (I hear Miata's use this for trunks a lot) what did you use to attach to the pull cable and how did you do it?


If you've got it in your hand (before you re-install it) look where the OE cable attaches. Run a pc of safety wire or light piano wire through that loop and back out. Usually you can do this w/o interrupting the OE cable. Most latches for hoods, trunks, doors don't need much pull tension to release them. Much of what you get for feel is in that long cable inside a sheath (lots of surface area to provide friction).

Matt

[Chris Wire]

might be time for a new thread but....

has anyone used these hood pins?

http://www.aerocatch.com/index.html

http://www.aerocatch.com/images/ani3.gif

Thank you Tom!

I saw these on the Tri-Point Mazdas and was going to begin a search to find them. I think they are great!

You just saved me a seach, and I appreciate it. I believe these are the way to go for me.

[grendel]

Gotta love rear opening hoods, they almost make it a non-issue. :)

Unless you are clever and replace the front hinge pins with quick releases. We did that on our RX7 and had it work for years. A friend came along and said, wow that's a good idea. Promptly did it to his, but forgot to put the retaining clips on. The only person I know of to lose a rear opening hood :)