Plain Old Gas ( POG )

[77ITA]

A new thread has been started that will be the official POG site for info, news, and listing of participants. Please see http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23935 (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23935) for all future discussion on the topic.




Hi guys,

I'd like to share a concept with the Improved Touring crowd that comes from a current practice within Spec Miata. Please grab a cold beverage and have a read. :)

In 2007, there was a great deal of discussion over at the specmiata.com web forums with regards to "exotic" or "hot" fuels being used by some of the front runners to gain an advantage over the competition (or to avoid a disadvantage). These fuels are technically legal by SCCA GCR standards, relatively expensive, and the topic of their use is quite controversial. It is also a fact that people are currently using "exotic" fuels in IT.

To learn more about the background and the types of fuel I am talking about, please read here:
"do exotic fuels work? Yes!" http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/2665.html


I've had a small amount of testing with such an "exotic" fuel and can verify that there are gains to be made especially with proper a/f ratio tuning. I can also verify that in my personal opinion, it would feel like an unfair advantage to be racing with these fuels. I just don't think it's within the spirit of IT to be running fuel that cost $36/gallon or more and is not [relatively] readily available .

Now that you've learned about the fuels (I'm sure a lot of you already knew of them), the topic at hand is how each of you feel about using them or competing with others that are using them.

Instead of worrying about a rule change in a field that would require a chemical engineering degree to understand, the Spec Miata guys over at www.specmiataclassifieds.com (http://www.specmiataclassifieds.com) devised a bit of a gentleman's agreement know as Plain Old Gas ( POG for short ).

POG is a pledge (honor) system that drivers can publicly participate in by placing a "POG" sticker on their gas flap.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/acrnjeff/pog.jpg

Anyone displaying a POG sticker on their gas flap is proclaiming that they:
1. Are using "plain old gas".
2. Are willing to provide a sample and/or a sniff to any other driver within their class.
3. Are willing to allow an inspection of their tail pipe and/or a spark plugs by any driver within their class.

POG is defined to include:
1. What can be purchased from a pump at a retail gas station for legal street use.
2. What can be purchased from a track pump at the track where the race is held.
3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.

To learn about the concept of POG in Spec Miata, please visit these links:
DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.
http://specmiataclassifieds.com/SMF/index.php?topic=103.0
http://www.plainoldgas.com/

Once you've had the time to review my post and the all the posts on the links provided, I would love to hear your opinions on POG (as a concept) and if you'd like to see this or a similar concept in Improved Touring. Decals and participation would most likely be free and could be easily kept track of in a post here on the forum or on a private website.

Credit for the concept goes to Tom and Steve Scheifler (St. Louis), but I've talked with Tom about working together so I can spearhead this concept within the Improved Touring group.

Either way, look for a POG sticker on my ITR Honda S2000 when I debut the car at the ARRC..... and you're each welcome to smell what's in my fuel tank. ;)

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Respectfully submitted for your input,

[Z3_GoCar]

Looks like you don't include 100LL Av gas from the local FBO pump. Is that an overcite, or on purpose?

James

[77ITA]

Looks like you don't include 100LL Av gas from the local FBO pump. Is that an overcite, or on purpose?

James

100LL and any other aviation fuel is intentionally excluded for a number of reasons.

[Greg Amy]

100LL and any other aviation fuel is intentionally excluded for a number of reasons.
Ugh. Guess what? It's "Plain Ole [Leaded high octane] Gas"...I use it in multiple vehicles, one of them being my airplane...

I was "on board" up to this point...if you guys want some details on this POG, I can provide it...remember: the whole world ain't Spec Miata, and if you want the world's cooperation... - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

We are bringing 15 cars to the first race in a week. 14 of them run regular-unleaded pump gas. I get a lot of crap for being the only guy who needs super-unleaded!

[77ITA]

Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.

[Greg Amy]

Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?
Depends, but no, not necessarily. But, really, is leaded high octane racing fuel "easily accessible to all racers" at "all" race tracks...?

100LL is available depending on your local small airport's standards/concerns; most will sell it to you, but some airport operators get nervous with someone that walks up with cans in hand (remember, the 9/11 asswipes learned to fly at small airports, so "we" are always on guard). Legally - at least Federally - there's no restrictions, as long as it's not used on the highway, for the most part sales are up to your local FBO's discretion.

I guess it comes down to what the priorities of the group are. If the group wants the ability for anyone, anywhere to walk up and buy the fuel, then I agree that 100LL may be disqualified (but then again, so may be leaded racing fuel at some/many tracks). But, if the priority is to discourage someone from using these weird-ass toluene, propolene, assolene, poopoleen brews, then 100LL is nowhere near that and is more kindred spirit with Sunoco 100GT...

Also, to be considered when asking other race classifications to join in, many of us are allowed engine modifications far and above the stock engine "ideal" of Spec Miata, and thus need something more than 93 octane...

I'll read through the web site docs tomorrow, and become a bit more informed of the expectations/standards...

GA

[MMiskoe]

3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.



How do you deal with alcohol enriched fuels that you get at the pump? They don't pass SCCA standards. Just curious

I think what you're up to is good, but its pretty hard to enforce. Some of the really exotic stuff will pass the current testing while some POG's will not.

Short of a 'pump around' (everyone pumps out half their tank and hands it to the next guy who dumps it in his tank) I'm not sure how you do address it.

[shwah]

Hence the gentleman's agreement aspect.

I run 100 unleaded for just a little more comfort that I won't blow things up if something becomes not right in the fueling or igntion. Would that qualify as POG? I buy it at the local gas station pump.

[77ITA]

First and foremost:

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Tom e-mailed me tonight and mentioned that there are already IT racers trying to sign up over at plainoldgas.com - Do no do this yet... If/when the time comes, you will get the stickers from me :cool:

Greg,

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG. It's certainly up for discussion and I appreciate your input.

MMiskoe,
There is no enforcement. This is a proposed gentleman's agreement, not a rule and the specifications about what type of fuel is adequate as written. Yes it could be torn apart and we could argue semantics about fuel like we do with every other IT rule, but that's not what this is about at all. :)

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

:)

[Ron Earp]

Dang, I wanted a POG sticker! :)

[joeg]

$36.00 per gallon is likely going to be the price of POG in the not to distant future...

[shwah]

First and foremost:

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

:)

OK. I buy mine from the local gas station pump, it's just Sunoco 100 unleaded. I'm not trying to nit pick details, I just wouldn't want to run the sticker unless what I am doing is consedered within the spirit of the agreement.

[Greg Amy]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG.
:shrug:

Then, unfortunately, I cannot support the "POG" initiative. I agree with it in concept, but disagree with its implementation. Gasoline is gasoline (and, in fact, avgas is far more stable and consistent than any other world-wide...and ASTM-certified and -tested).

I suggest the initiative is better suited for stock-engined, stock-ecu'd classes such as Spec Miata (hah!) and Showroom Stock (?) but not for classes that allow internal engine modifications and modded ECUs. While I may not (probably don't) "need" higher-octane fuels, I'll never run street gas again; I've burned up too many engines in testing and development to skimp on a few dollars per gallon in fuels... - GA

[lateapex911]

Yea, for this to work in the IT world, where high(er) compression engines are more common, (ITC=10.5, > ITR=11.5), guys like Chris, who is buying "safety" gas...need to be covered. Limiting it to "at the track" (or the same as at the track, by that do you mean exact manufacturer, etc?) is adding lots of inconvenience and probably un-needed expense to the agreement.

I never buy track gas...my car runs as well on 87 unleaded as it does on anything else. Somebody, please educate me as to what is typically available at the track, and, to take it a step further, what is the difference between those options, and the AV gas tGA speaks of?

If I understand the intent of the policy correctly... (Kirk's web bots will fire off an email to him upon seeing the term "policy" used at IT.com, LOL)...it's to keep the exotic and wacko formulations out. But, that might need amending for IT vs. SM. Perhaps there could be a second tier "POG" sticker, one with a "Declaration" blank line where the owner Declares his fuel, and writes it on the line. For me, that would be "87 UL", for Greg, that would be "100 LL", and for Chris, that would be "100 UL". Thoughts?

[924Guy]

I do like the idea, though it would indeed seem to require some adjustment for IT to make sense...

I guess I'm just cheap, I buy my gas at Costco... :D

Ack, can't do it anyway - no gas flap to stick the sticker on! I guess my car's just too old, time to put 'er out to pasture... :(

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't see this working in IT. All of this is so far from the intended 'plain ole gas' that it's not even funny.

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

If you wanna be a POG guy, get your gas at gas stations.

Although I would be eligible for this sticker (as defined by the SM thread) I would NEVER want it to become a negative thing that guys in IT weren't doing it. Like Greg said, piece of mind costs little in the long run. It's why I change my fliuds after every race and hubs, rotors and pads mid-year. Needed? Probably not but what is happening here is an attempt to legislate cost........

Now if I was a guy who knew of a car that spewed fumes so bad that I got sick or my eyes watered, I would have a talk with that person for sure. Safety is a seperate issue in my eyes.

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

[shwah]

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.



100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/

[77ITA]

thanks for the great replies and conversation so far... this is the exact type of feedback I was looking for.

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

I realize that IT is much different than SM and that some people need higher octane fuel, but I doubt there are any IT cars the require better smelling gas than what is available at your average track or retail pump.

I realize that there are a lot of "what-ifs" and POG lacks the fine detail and definition of a rule, but that's just the way it should be.

It's obvious what the spirit of POG is and it's up to each individual to decide if it's in-line with their philosophy and if they want to participate. I feel very strongly about not making any adjustments to the definition of POG and feel that it would fit into IT just fine.

[erlrich]

100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/
Chris, you are indeed fortunate to have that many outlets; in VA we have 5, one at Summit, one at VIR (literally opposite ends of the state), and 3 others that are at least an hour away for me.

Then I have the local airport, which is 10 minutes away, and last I checked was $1.50 or so cheaper than the gas at the track. And I am one of those fools who chose to tune the ECU for 100 octane, so my choices are limited. I appreciate and support the idea behind the POG initiative, but if it will cost me more money & added inconvenience to join the cause I will also have to sit this one out.

[spdmonkey]

Frankly I see AVgas as pump fuel. To me its no different from the race fuel I can buy at a station 4 miles from my house. The airport is just another mile and I can buy their gas too. This initiative is aimed at stuff like rocketfuel and others that are custom blended. Once you smell it you never forget it and anybody can tell the difference. While I have a SM you won't find me running the decal or the fuel its aimed to reduce. Its a gimmick.

[keycom]

I have yet to find an airport (small or otherwise) in my area that will sell me avgas. They require it to be put directly into an airplane.:shrug:

[itracer]

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

Just have everyone who is using "normal" gas, as defined here (with no additives, and not harmful to others) run an "X" on thier gas covers.

[dickita15]

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

I think this a great idea for SM but I don’t think it is about enforcement, it is about trying to change the culture.

[IPRESS]

Guys, here is a little history on the subject. The POG deal is sort of an extension of the Pro motor deal in SM. Some folks have not been able to get their hands around the reality that SM is sorta spec but not all the way. These agreements worked OK when it was a regional class, but with "The Runoffs" involved all out escalation has taken place and some of the guys don't like it. One of the first targets was the dreaded Pro Motor, but nothing has been done to fix that problem, and the guys who were against that have taken up the POG cause. For some reason SCCA has not been able to outlaw some of these wild blended car cocktails. I am sure it is not easy to fix this problem or it already would have been addressed. The POG backers (and they mean well) are trying to use peer pressure to stop the exotic fule usage. I don't think it will work with National points at stake. People will use whatever is within the rules to prep to the max. Until the exotics CAN be legally outlawed I don't see some guys stopping their usage. The exotics can make a difference in a group of highly prepped SMs where every bit of added HP/TQ can be a difference maker. Of course with the last two RO winners in SM getting MX5 Cup rides, there is a little more up for grabs. (Although winning ARRC is bigger in my eyes!!!!)

As far as IT, if nobody uses it in the NE or SE it is not a problem. The rest of us are probably not near as serious (well maybe some of the Left Coast!)
Let Andy and his SMAC buddies try to fix it for them.
Not really a need here.
Jeff the S brothers mean well, and maybe a POG ground swell will push the powers that be to act, but I think they already would have done something if they could.

[IPRESS]

As a follow up, I understand that the fuel testing situation is very COMPLEX and has tons of variables. I would love to see every one using track / pump gas (at least common and available) as I would love to see other things in racing be held to a cost cap. BUT it ain't going to happen.
I support the idea of POG, but I am not comfortable with the idea that if someone disagrees he or she is made to look like a cheater when they are well within the rules.
As far as an agreement / smell test etc. How many times has the old "Lets work together and draft away from the pack." agreement gone to hell in a handbag as soon as the green flag flys?
Is that guy you had a deal with to draft together a dirty SOB cause he got a jump and left you behind? Should you wear a Tshirt that proclaims such? I don't think so.

[JohnRW]

As the Chemists can tell you, testing protocols & systems will never keep up with the ability of fuel blenders to blend rocket fuels. Lost cause.

Only solutions are "tagged" fuel with a known % of chemical tracer (as at the RunOffs the last few years), or else do what the go-karters do - a "pump around", where everybody's fuel is mixed in one big tub, and everyone has to draw fuel off that tub.

[Parrish57]

Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.

Jeff ... First and foremost I'd like to say thank you for the effort and intent of POG. I've known for a very long time that my fellow competitors are taking more advantage of the fuel rules than I am but that thread on SM dot com was an eye opener. That being said, I hope you don't get upset if I offer some divergent opinions.

First, I'd like to address the 100LL Avgas issue. I'm not comfortable using 93 octane in my fully (?) ITS prepared motor. I know of one 240Z pilot that was insistant on using 93 but had to repair too many detonated motors. I've never ran anything but 100LL or 100 unleaded race fuel. I've used both on the dyno and there is only one difference: PRICE! I don't change ANYTHING on my car to go between the two fuels. At my local airport the price today is $4.84/gal. That's right in line with the national average. If someone is trying to charge you $7 per gal you are getting severly ripped! If you would like to know what you should be paying in your part of the country for avgas go to http://www.100ll.com/ By contrast, I paid $7.49 per gallon last week at Carolina Motorsports Park for Sonoco 100 Unleaded. I'm all for keeping the super exotics out of IT racing, but if you are suggesting that I should volunteer to pay an extra $2.65 per gal to get essentially the same fuel then I'll have to pass on POG. As for your statment that Avgas is "not intended or legal to be pumped into a car", the only part that is accurate is that it is not legal to pump avgas directly into a STREET car as there is no road tax applied to aviation fuel. If you show up at the airport with your gas cans and assure the FBO that you are not using this fuel on pubic roads you should not have a problem. If they still refuse to sell it to you they are being overprotective and you shouldn't penalize me for that.

The second statment that I have to reiterate is that I want no part of using peer pressure to insinuate that the guys I'm chasing are doing anything wrong by using the $36 per gal fuels. IT is not a spec class. It has taken me a very long time to legally get to the pointy end of the grid. I'm sure that the guys and gals that are chasing me now know that I am outspending them. (I hope and pray that they don't assume that I'm cheating to get there). Meanwhile the cars that I'm chasing are outspending me 3 to 1. Folks, that's racing. It's true from the smallest little go kart track all the way to F1. There will always be the haves and the have nots.

In a Utopian IT world we would all come to a gentlemens agreement to run the same fuel, tires, shocks, motors, widgets, and driver ability. If you can get the IT community to agree to spec anything I'm with you. Until then I'll just keep doing what I'm doing!

[gsbaker]

...and ASTM-certified and -tested...
What?! I think all gas should be SFI certified.

:)

[gsbaker]

I have heard that in the karting world, especially among the youngsters, all the tanks get drained into a common container and then refilled from that container, so everyone burns the same fuel mix.

[Ron Earp]

I'd second what Steve says.

While I'd like a POG sticker for my car, and find the slogan humorous, I wouldn't want others to feel peer pressure to run POG or for folks to think I feel they are doing something wrong by running non-POG.

My car seems to like POG, but my car has a tad bit less compression than Steve's and the combustion chamber design is a bit more resistant to detonation (I'm told). Maybe I need to mix up a bit of a cocktail to make sure I don't have to rebuild my engine on a regular basis. While on a purely compression ratio evaluation I'd estimate I should be fine with 93 (~9.2 : 1), after thinking about the carburetors, uneven mixture distribution the cylinders, various changing conditions, maybe I could use a bit of insurance. I'm sure the guys that have higher compressions would like the insurance - 10.5 stock on some BMWs!! Couple that with racing and there probably isn't a lot of room for error.

100LL is available at any local airport for not huge money. When I flew often I'd pick it up for my Lotus that was running a lot of boost, just to have a bit of insurance to keep detonation at bay. I'd not begrudge anyone who wanted that little bit of extra insurance in their IT car.

Steve, I don't know if you're outspending me or not (my wife would say no way!), but I know you're out-driving me! And I know you aren't cheating, and the other fellows know that too. Keep on keeping on, I want to see that Z win some SAARC races (or at least come in close behind a TR8 and 260Z! :p)

R

[chuck baader]

I have even read most of the statements on this thread, and I have one major problem with running the exotic fuels....they obviously precipitate oxygen during the combustion process! All IT motors I know of are limited by the intake....that is, only so much oxygen can be introduced to combustion chamber...that is what limits horse power. If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

[Marcus Miller]

If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

By which rule?

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?
I only run track gas, there is no chance in hell I'm paying $36 a gallon for fuel... :smilie_pokal:

Marcus

[wcmcarlos]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

[Greg Amy]

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?
Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".

Balancing and blueprinting Miata engines in SM is expressly illegal to the rules; it's actually written in there. But, competitors still do it because it's unenforceable. Ergo, although balanced and blueprinted engines are expressly illegal to the rules, they are still done.

Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway.

(I find is amusing both debates/discussions/arguments center around the same vehicle prep category... purely coincidental, I'm sure... :shrug:)

[Ron Earp]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Not sure that has a lot to do with the fuel, at least not all the time it doesn't. It might have more to do with how much unburned fuel is being expelled.

My Z runs POS and it will absolutely make your eyes water if you are within 10 feet of it at idle. It has almost made me pass out loading it onto an enclosed trailer without proper ventilation. One reason I don't sit on the grid and idle.

[JohnRW]

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal"....

&

...Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway....


The GCR specifies a "dielectric coefficient" test, and one or more "reagent" tests to determine legality. If a fuel passes these tests, how is it not legal ? Where in the rules are there specifications other than those spelled out in the fuel testing protocols ? What is "expressly illegal" ?

[Parrish57]

Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".
Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway.

Oh boy, here we go........

My views against using exotic fuels have been expressed in this thread so I won't repeat them. But I will reiterate my defence of those who are willing to spend up to 36 bucks per gallon for LEGAL race fuels. The fuel regs have been posted repeatedly and not one person has posted evidence that these fuels violate the GCR. Go to the VP website and review the specs for SR1 fuel. There are a lot of other fuels that proclaim to meet SCCA standards. http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html

[Parrish57]

This grid worker would thank everyone for running "plain old gas",
as the fumes on the grid sometimes water my eyes, and I have witnessed other grid workers break out in coughing fits at the one minit whistle.
I'm just saying,
Thanks
Carlos

Carlos.... Thanks for volunteering to make all of this possible!!! One of the worst offenders I've experienced on the grid is the RX7. Not throwing darts, it's just a matter of unburned fuel. My understanding of rotories is that they are the LEAST likely to use exotic fuels. 87 octane is the flavor of choice for them......

[JeffYoung]

TR8 runs on nuclear power. Things that make you go boom, boom, things that make you go boom, boom.

For me, if the "stuff" passes whatever fuel test there is, then what it costs or what's in it is irrelevant. Does the GCR specifically BAN additives in fuel or does it simply say the gas must pass x.y.z tests? If the latter, well, then what's in it matters not.

P.S. I am a Plain Old Gasser, who usually gets beat by Mr. Parrish although I now know his secret. I'm switching up his fuel jugs with mine before the next race.

[Parrish57]

TR8 runs on nuclear power. Things that make you go boom, boom, things that make you go boom, boom.

P.S. I am a Plain Old Gasser, who usually gets beat by Mr. Parrish although I now know his secret. I'm switching up his fuel jugs with mine before the next race.

Careful!!!!! My Plutonium 239 and your Uranium 235 are not compatible!

Do I really have to repost the GCR fuel rules???

[JeffYoung]

I've been pushing for Plain Old Uranium for years but no one seems to listen.....

Steve, get yo'sef down to Roebling. 11 S cars already, and a real fun track. I've never seen you there......and you have a potential SIC winning car so you need to get some Roebling seat time my friend.

[splats]

First, I support and use 'Plain Old STREET Gas'.
Second, HOW DID A CLASS OF CARS, BASED ON SHOWROOM STOCK, GET TO THE POINT THAT SOME 'LEGAL' ENGINES ARE REQUIRED TO RUN 100+ RACING FUEL??
Am I missing the point of an entry-level, low-budget class? We can run 'built' engines with expensive after-market ECM's and fancy coil-overs that are $1000.00 per corner. But are ILLEGAL if we remove the heater-core or washer-bottle. HOW DID THIS CLASS GET THIS POINT????

I think that ALL IT's should run POG that you can get at 7-11, Citgo, Shell, etc.....
And if your engine won't/can't run on it, then move to Prodution where that engine belongs.

Sorry if I offened anyone, but there are plenty of us that are on a very limited buget.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The reason the SM's pick up some power with the 'right' formulated stuff is that it helps lean out the mixture. They are notoriously rich at high RPM/WOT. They don't run crazy timing advance and half of them have stock intakes and restrictor plates so crazy high octane isn't a big factor.

The 13B RX-7's can run the 87 (we do) but the smelliest cars I have seen are the 12A carbed cars.

[Marcus Miller]

Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".




Oh, I know, I just like sitrring the pot. :026:

I might argue unenforceable is legal though...
:024: :rolleyes:

To add onto Andy's post.. yiou can't change Fuel/Air on the 1.8 liter Spec Miata's, so oxygenating the fuel *really* helps those cars run.

Marcus

[shwah]

First, I support and use 'Plain Old STREET Gas'.
Second, HOW DID A CLASS OF CARS, BASED ON SHOWROOM STOCK, GET TO THE POINT THAT SOME 'LEGAL' ENGINES ARE REQUIRED TO RUN 100+ RACING FUEL??
Am I missing the point of an entry-level, low-budget class? We can run 'built' engines with expensive after-market ECM's and fancy coil-overs that are $1000.00 per corner. But are ILLEGAL if we remove the heater-core or washer-bottle. HOW DID THIS CLASS GET THIS POINT????

I think that ALL IT's should run POG that you can get at 7-11, Citgo, Shell, etc.....
And if your engine won't/can't run on it, then move to Prodution where that engine belongs.

Sorry if I offened anyone, but there are plenty of us that are on a very limited buget.

Mine will run fine on 93 pump gas, but I would rather have the added piece of mind of the 100 that I buy from a Citgo station provides.

[chuck baader]

I don't have the GCR in front of me, however, I seem to remember that oxygenating fuels are expressly prohibited (nitro methane, propylene oxide, etc.) Rules nerds correct me if I am wrong. Chuck

[lateapex911]

First, I support and use 'Plain Old STREET Gas'.
Second, HOW DID A CLASS OF CARS, BASED ON SHOWROOM STOCK, GET TO THE POINT THAT SOME 'LEGAL' ENGINES ARE REQUIRED TO RUN 100+ RACING FUEL??
Am I missing the point of an entry-level, low-budget class? We can run 'built' engines with expensive after-market ECM's and fancy coil-overs that are $1000.00 per corner. But are ILLEGAL if we remove the heater-core or washer-bottle. HOW DID THIS CLASS GET THIS POINT????

I think that ALL IT's should run POG that you can get at 7-11, Citgo, Shell, etc.....
And if your engine won't/can't run on it, then move to Prodution where that engine belongs.

Sorry if I offened anyone, but there are plenty of us that are on a very limited buget.

Point by point...with ammendments


Second, HOW DID A CLASS OF CARS, BASED ON PRODUCTION BASED AUTOMOBILES,

and..

.....GET TO THE POINT THAT SOME 'LEGAL' ENGINES PREFER TO RUN 100+ RACING FUEL AFTER BUMPING THE COMPRESSION THE ALLOWABLE AMOUNT< WHICH IS NEARLY 12 to 1 in some cases??

and...


Am I missing the point of an entry-level, low-budget class? We can run 'built' (see above) engines with expensive after-market ECM's (which are, in most cases cheaper than the peviously needed alternatives)

and...


But are ILLEGAL if we remove the heater-core or washer-bottle. HOW DID THIS CLASS GET THIS POINT

Would it save you money to remove your heater core? It would cost me if I did, as I'd actually have to go spend time digging in the dash, when I could be spending time on something productive.....like aligning the car....AND I'd have lost tire contingency money when I won that rain race...the one I won because I could see through my windsheild, when others, mysteriously couldn't.

and...


I think that ALL IT's should run POG that you can get at 7-11, Citgo, Shell, etc.....
And if your engine won't/can't run on it, then move to Prodution where that engine belongs

Here's my take on this........
You choose your car, based on your needs, which in this case, appear to have a budgetary factor. Choose a car that's reliable, so you're not replacing brake caliper seals every race like Jeff young, or one that doesn't require weird or custom or exotic running gear, like Greg Amy's NX 2000...or one that isn't 11.5 : 1 compression, like certain Acuras and Hondas, so that you don't feel like you need to run 'expensive' 100 octane for peace of mind......choose a car that is "reasonable' to run. Should the architects of the category ban all cars that have over, sys, 9.5:1 compression in an effort to save people money? Or only class common cars so parts are readily available? Or should we allow them to make intelligent choices?

Choose a car with leaf springs? Prepare to spend money on exotic dampers and other items to bring your car up to par with the rest of the class. Or torsion bars? Plan on hiring help ($) to do adjustments that take others 5 minutes. Love that car with the high compression ratio? Get ready to spend the money on fuels to ensure it doesn't go "boom" in a racing environment. Many of the changes you listed that you are not happy about have been made because it is actually cheaper to allow those changes in a racing environment than it is to remain "stock". Once a change is allowed however, (such as shocks), it is impossible to truly control costs. In the shock case, trust me, the two adjustment rule reigns in the truly expensive stuff.

Simply, we've chosen to race...and with that choice come costs. choose wisely, and you can contain those costs, to a degree, but you'll never control them unless you decide to run a "claimer" class. Look around, and tell me, what nationally sanctioned road racing category/class, with a pseudo "national championship", and mixed marques with hundreds of models to choose from is cheaper to run?

[RacerBill]

First, I support and use 'Plain Old STREET Gas'.
Second, HOW DID A CLASS OF CARS, BASED ON SHOWROOM STOCK, GET TO THE POINT THAT SOME 'LEGAL' ENGINES ARE REQUIRED TO RUN 100+ RACING FUEL??
Am I missing the point of an entry-level, low-budget class? We can run 'built' engines with expensive after-market ECM's and fancy coil-overs that are $1000.00 per corner. But are ILLEGAL if we remove the heater-core or washer-bottle. HOW DID THIS CLASS GET THIS POINT????

I think that ALL IT's should run POG that you can get at 7-11, Citgo, Shell, etc.....
And if your engine won't/can't run on it, then move to Prodution where that engine belongs.

Sorry if I offened anyone, but there are plenty of us that are on a very limited buget.


In the immortal words of Pogo 'We have met the enemy......and he is US!!!!!'

In a very general sense, not aimed and any body at all!!!!

[iambhooper]

Either this is a strange April Fools prank, or I have fallen asleep and am dreeming of BiZaRo ImPrOvEd toUrInG dOt CoM....

$36/Gal race fuel and Greg Amy telling us we can run airplane fuel in our cars?! :blink:

:wacko:

Hopefully I can come out of this coma soon!

[JeffYoung]

I told you, plain old Uranium for me.

[77ITA]

I appreciate all of the feedback I've received on this topic. Please know that I reviewed and considered each of your comments and decided that I would like to get the POG concept up and running in Improved Touring.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/acrnjeff/untitled.jpg

Is there an administrator or moderator that I can talk with about starting a new post/topic that could be "stickied" to the top where we can keep track of those interested in participating in the gentleman's agreement?


Once I get a thread started where we can keep track of the info, I will take requests for stickers. If time and budget allows, I'll have some awesome POG t-shirts to be handed out to POG class winners at ARRC. This will all be coming out of my pocket too (no corporate sponsorships from Texaco!)

Thanks for the support and for the opinions, but come on... no once has even called me an *** hole yet!

[erlrich]

but come on... no once has even called me an *** hole yet!
That's because no one has confused you with that other Jeff yet :D

If you start a new topic, one of the many moderators here can make it a sticky.

[tom_sprecher]

The 13B RX-7's can run the 87 (we do) but the smelliest cars I have seen are the 12A carbed cars.

Look, I take a shower everyday. However, the car has not had a good wash since they banned all outdoor water use in Georgia. So if my car is the smelliest it's not my fault. Either blame the politicians or Mother Nature or maybe try to be a little more understanding.

Now I'm embarrassed and will end up developing a complex about the whole thing. Thanks a lot.

:D

[chuck baader]

Marcus, et all....see GCR 9.3.25. Fuel "...Use of propylene oxide, ethylene oxide, paradioxane, and basic nitrogen or sulfur-bearing compounds (i.e. pyridine, aniline, pyrrole, dimethylsulfoxide, etc.) is prohibited."

Now, someone please explain how you can make more power without more air in an internal combustion engine. CHEAT...CHEAT:026: CHUCK..who will let anyone smell his gas anytime anywhere:D

[fiat124girl]

This is a truly interesting conversation.

Jeff, you should not have let the secret out that your Triumph runs on U235, I thought that was a secret!

Jeef, you are not an ***hole, so why would anyone call you that.

Chuck, I would love to smell your gas :cool:

Now to my opinion, even though no one probably cares. I do not care if people want to run the exotic fuels, I do believe that in IT it is a waste of money because of the differences in cars.

Jude and I choose not to run the exotic fuels because we are cheap and new tires are more important; also, the track time that we could purchase for the price of these fuels would be better spent.

[chuck baader]

OOOOOOOOOOO....KINKI:happy204: Chuck

[77ITA]

A new thread has been started that will be the official POG site for info, news, and listing of participants. Please see http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23935 (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23935) for all future discussion on the topic.