ITA/7 vs ITB vs SM in the Midwest

[astondb4gtz]

Hello, midwest IT racers.

I am finally hitting a point in life where I can actually do some wheel-to-wheel racing. I am doing some track days / DE events this year in my street car, but would like to pick up a dedicated track car that is road race capable in the next year or so. I am in no way building a car, so I would buy something "race-ready".

I am in Iowa, and looking around at Midwest Council, NASA, and SCCA events that are anywhere close to here, it is evident that there are WAY more Spec Miatas than anything else at a given event. What do you guys say about the relative merits of starting out in an ITA/7 RX7, an ITB Rabbit, or a Spec Miata? I know the initial cost on an SM is more, but as you guys well know, the initial cost is a very small part of the overall budget. I'm torn.

Cliffs Notes: Wannabe road racer in Iowa needs to pick between ITA/7 RX7, ITB Rabbit, or SM - discuss

Thanks for any thoughts!

[shwah]

Here in CenDiv there is good participation in ITA and ITB. I don't ever see IT7 cars, unless they have an ITA on the side.

ITB has become a competitive group in the last few years, and is lots of fun. I have had nose to tail, and mirror to mirror races with 4 different guys in recent history. There is an OK mix of cars - A1, A2 and A3 VWs, BMW, Fiero, Volvo, Escort

ITA has good counts, and last year there was a bit more competition for the win than the year before. Also - SM or SSM (or SMT or whatever the other SM is) runs with us in our group. The fast ones do run with the top half of ITA. The slow ones sometimes get in the way of the ITB group at the beginning. I have not seen them cause any significant problem, and have actually watched some decent 'races' between SM and ITA cars from behind.

I do know that there are a few ITB cars in Midwest Council, but don't really know the competition level.

[shwah]

An ITB Rabbit can be competitive, especially at Blackhawk. A Golf 2 or Golf 3 will be easier to maintain, and you should be able to get an already built one for a decent price.

I don't know SMs well.

I don't think you would have folks to race with in IT7 here.

IF you are looking at MidDiv, it may be a totaly different story.

[lateapex911]

First question:
Do you like Front wheel drive?
Do you like unique sounds and handling?
Or do you like a car that handles easily?

Then, what fits the competition where you are?

The Miata has it's advantages:
Mazda support (huge), dream car handling (beginer friendly) Pretty cheap to run, lots of competition at all levels, (good for learning racecraft). And you can convert to ITA, Prod, etc., If you do well, you can go national, or to big events.

And it's disadvantages: It s gehy. (sorry, it is! ;) ) it's often dented, and you'll be stepping into a "bad rep" situation right away. (there are those that think SM drivers are crashfests waiting to happen. Whether that is true is hugely debatable, but with so many Miatas out there, there are bound to be incidents), and it's a tight fit for taller or wider drivers. Some find Spec racing too limiting, and like the variety that mixed marque racing offers.

The RX-7
Advantages: Rear wheel drive, handles very well if set up right, Hard to hurt the motor, revs forever, (good for beginner), Mazda support, and super cheap buy in. Runs in either ITA or IT7 (Both if they are separate run groups), and ITA is a popular class.
Disadvantages: RWD..if you're a FWD kinda guy. It's getting old, and some parts are tough to find. If you are afraid if different engines, the rotary will alarm you. Scary handling if it's set up wrong.

Rabbit- Advantages: Cheap to buy in, lots of parts, ITB is a cool class. FWD,(Some say easier to drive)
Disadvantages. Probably stuck in ITB, (unless the chassis is also in ITA with a differnt motor, I think that's the case with later versions of the Golf), Certain version are prone to break hubs.

Hope that helps more than it confuses!

[astondb4gtz]

First question:
Do you like Front wheel drive?
Do you like unique sounds and handling?
Or do you like a car that handles easily?

Hope that helps more than it confuses!

Thanks for the response!

I guess I prefer RWD, but find the Rabbit to be oddly "cool" (probably exposed to too many 1st gen GTI ads as a child...) Plus, either early RX7 or Rabbit can probably be used for vintage racing soon, which I love watching and always wanted to be a part of.

That being said, I've driven miatas in stock and modded condition on the street and they are awesome to drive.

Sounds like no matter what I choose I'll have someone to run with, I may pick up a well sorted IT car and run it for a while and go to SM if I feel ambitious later.

I dunno, if anybody has more "compare and contrast" opinions, I'd love to hear 'em.

Thanks,
Morgan

[JIgou]

Hey Morgan - where do you live?

Jarrod

[astondb4gtz]

Hey Morgan - where do you live?

Jarrod

I've seen ya around at the DMVR autocrosses, Jarrod - I'm in Ankeny. :D

[JIgou]

I wondered about that.....the pool starts to get pretty small when you start with the name Morgan, then narrow it to Iowa and "Plays with Cars".

Drop me a note or give me a call and I can give you some guidance. Obviously I'm pretty happy with the direction I've gone, but I'm open-minded enough to let people make their own mistakes....errr, choices. :)

We've got some members who know and drive RX-7s as well as ITB VWs and of course SM. And of course you're welcome to hang out at MAM or any other races in the area to see what the competition is looking like.

Jarrod

[JIgou]

Oh, and I should add - we've also got some locals who have run with Midwest Council, NASA and SCCA and can help you compare and contrast each of them as well.

J

[tnord]

Morgan -

I can provide perspective from both sides of it. I ran SM in MiDiv for 2years, then when the spec tire thing came down and i had the opportunity to buy literally a truckload of tires for practically nothing, i did it and have run ITA for the past 2yrs in my SM.

SM fields are the largest on a given weekend in MiDiv, but have retracted a bit recently. I would guess that the average field is in the range of 15-18 cars on any given weekend. Places like Memphis usually have less, but you can also find 20+ at Topeka, sometimes MAM, sometimes St Louis, and sometimes Hallett.

ITA fields probably aren't the 2nd largest in MiDiv, but they might be 3rd. I think there's been an uptick in ITA participation in the last couple years in part from the spillover of people like me from SM. I would say ITA averages between 10 and 13 entries per weekend, and i think i've seen as many as 17.

ITB there really isn't much going on in MiDiv. There's a couple good drivers out of STL in VWs, and one down in the OK/AR area with a volvo, but not much else i've seen. Same with IT7, they're is a couple here in Kansas City, and a couple in STL, but most have made the move to ITA.

What's really nice is that as it currently stands, you can be competitive with a SM in ITA in MiDiv. That way you can have a very versatile car to try out both classes with and see what you like. I personally would prefer to run in SM, but the great contingency program from Kumho has kept me in ITA. Whatever you decide, the miata has the big advantage of being a known quantity. There are a ton of people at the track with spare parts, who know how to make them go fast, and are willing to help you out.

There are also plenty of good SM cars out there for sale for not a lot of money. I'd be happy to help you find one, or asisst with anything else I can. Respond here, PM me, or email me. [email protected]

[miketrier]

I used to own and drive a 1980 RX7 in ITA/7. It held the MAM track record and I think the new driver holds it now. I believe the car is for sale. Contact David Vandeberg at Sioux Center, IA. He is in the DMVR directory. 712-722-0517 This is a very good car. Well-prepared, fast and reliable. I think it will also be relatively inexpensive to purchase. It served me well.

[924Guy]

Since you'd prefer RWD, and are looking at ITB - have you considered a 924? Not such a common choice, but inexpensive to run, there are a few around, and the cars are doing fairly well since being moved to B.

Then again, if there isn't much of an ITB field out your way, that may not be so appealing...

[astondb4gtz]

I used to own and drive a 1980 RX7 in ITA/7. It held the MAM track record and I think the new driver holds it now. I believe the car is for sale. Contact David Vandeberg at Sioux Center, IA. He is in the DMVR directory. 712-722-0517 This is a very good car. Well-prepared, fast and reliable. I think it will also be relatively inexpensive to purchase. It served me well.

Thanks Mike, I am not quite at the check-writing stage yet, I have to clear a couple of projects from the garage yet - it'll be late this year or early next before I am there. It does sound well-sorted!

[astondb4gtz]

Since you'd prefer RWD, and are looking at ITB - have you considered a 924? Not such a common choice, but inexpensive to run, there are a few around, and the cars are doing fairly well since being moved to B.

Then again, if there isn't much of an ITB field out your way, that may not be so appealing...

Actually you are onto something - as I have been looking around, doing a 944 for the Spec 944 class in NASA seems pretty appealing too! A nice blend of high on the "cool" factor but relatively low on the "dollar" factor. I think they fall into ITE in SCCA but I'm not 100% sure?

[tnord]

the Spec 944 from NASA will fall into ITS with SCCA. there is a guy here in KC that just built one and will be running fairly frequently this year.

[shwah]

I know someone in Chicagoland that is building 3 or 4 spec 944s right now, some customer and some rentals. I'll pick his brain and see what separates them from IT specifications, and see what a rental would run.

[924Guy]

I'd recommend pursuing 944 Cup instead of Spec 944 - you'll have a better level of competitiveness with an ITS-prepped 944 than a Spec-prepped 944 (which, like IT7/SRX7, is a lower level of prep). Also, check numbers in your area, but I think 944Cup is better represented in the Midwest area than Spec 944. Not sure on that one though.

But I was actually talking about an ITB 2.0L 924, which is much less expensive than the 944 - the only real difference being the engine, and it's cheaper to build a VW than a Porsche! :)

[buldogge]

Travis... Will he be at Gateway at the end of the month?

One of the local BMWCCA guys if building a Spec944 as well... He won't be ready until April though.


the Spec 944 from NASA will fall into ITS with SCCA. there is a guy here in KC that just built one and will be running fairly frequently this year.

[tnord]

Travis... Will he be at Gateway at the end of the month?

One of the local BMWCCA guys if building a Spec944 as well... He won't be ready until April though.


nope, Hallett will be his first race. I think he said he's going to try and make 5 weekends this year.

[miketrier]

Morgan
Most of the info posted is basically correct. However, IT7 is a relatively new class that started in 2004 when a bunch of RX7 drivers convinced MIDIV to opt them out of ITA. IT7 started in SEDIV a few years earlier. ITA in MIDIV was dominated by Hondas and a 240SX so the RX7 guys got their own class. There really isn't a move back to ITA, its just that some weekends there isn't much of a IT7 class so the drivers run in ITA. preparation for the cars is identical for ITA and IT7.
I ran a1980 ITA/7 RX7 for 6 years. Only 1 DNF and that was a crash. The cars tend to be very reliable and low maintenance. They are a great club racer. In those 6 years I never changed or rebuilt an engine, transmission or differential. I sold it in 2005 in preparation for retiring and the guy who bought it hasn't had much trouble either and he's way faster than I ever was. He's been known to run ahead of the ITA and ITS cars in the IT group. I think it's for sale as he is building a FS car.
I'd stay away from the VW's but only because they seem to break more and require more maintenance than the Mazdas.
Good luck in your search. BTW, I lived in Ankeny when I had the RX7.
Mike Trier

[shwah]

Morgan
I'd stay away from the VW's but only because they seem to break more and require more maintenance than the Mazdas.


Just because Albin can break anything, it does not make the VW an unreliable racer. It really does quite well. Chris asks a lot from his equipment...

[astondb4gtz]

Good luck in your search. BTW, I lived in Ankeny when I had the RX7.
Mike Trier

Thanks for chiming in, Mike! I have heard that about the RX7's before - Peter Egan said that he bought his for $3500, raced it for 5 years just changing fluids and consumables, and sold it for $3500!

Everyone has had some great input and I really appreciate it! :happy204: I have "Go Ahead Take The Wheel" on order and plans to ply some of the local road race crowd with beer and/or wrenching time to get more info. Like I said, I'll do some DE events this year in the street car, and if all goes well, by late this year or early next, I'll have cleared out garage space and will move into "shopping" mode. Knowing me, I will narrow it down to a few possible classes, and then I will find the "best deal" I can. One thing I learned from karting and reading on racing forums though, the "best deal" is NOT the cheapest deal very often when it comes to racing equipment!

Morgan

[tnord]

Morgan
There really isn't a move back to ITA, its just that some weekends there isn't much of a IT7 class so the drivers run in ITA.
Mike Trier

The highest # of entries i can find for IT7 all year was 3.