Question for all ITC drivers

[Ed Funk]

What other classes do you routinely get grouped with, and do you feel that has any connection to your desire to stay in ITC?

In New England we're put in with the Special Me's and it tends to be a horror show. ITC fields have declined to practically nothing (1-2 cars per race last year). We have been going out of area to race and find fields of 8-10 cars at those tracks where ITC is in a group of other IT classes.

I don't have anything against SM or SSM, I think everybody who can afford to rent a car and go out and run into moving and still objects should have a place to play, I just don't want to be on the playground!:026:

[jjjanos]

The last two groupings for MARRS were SRX7/ITC and then, last year, ITB/ITC. The B/C grouping works well.

[spnkzss]

The B/C grouping works well.

Agreed. SM was horrible and SRX7 took some playing and complaining to become good.

[Andy Bettencourt]

This year ITC is grouped with SM in New England. I think that you will find a lot fewer SM's in your hair than SSM's by virture of that little bit more speed.

Up here, we don't have enough ITB/ITC cars to have their own run group.

[dave parker]

Ed
Yes, the 2005 class grouping of SRX7 and ITC caused me to leave ITC and go to H Production for the 2006 season.
Lots of reasons, but mostly I got tired of idiots beating up my racecar and the Stewards doing nothing about it.
Apparently the same class grouping was alot better in 2006, but I attribute that to the efforts of the drivers rep (John Burkhard) lobbying the Stewards for a "split grid" start and some familiarity of the drivers in the two classes having run together for a year.
For the most part I have found that the DC Region Production guys do not want to hit each other.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion

[jjjanos]

In the way of a general gripe/complaint....

Stewards are no different than other people - they don't want to make waves. "Minor" contact isn't going to draw their RFA unless something else provokes it.

Drivers are no different than other people - they don't want make waves. "Minor" contact isn't going to draw a protest unless something else provokes it.

Everybody see the problem? Don't expect the stewards to willingly be jerks.

Ya don't want to get hit by a special me... adopt your own zero-tolerance policy. FILE the bloody protest when someone hits you.

[joeg]

I will (and have run) with anyone--including ITA,ITS, ITE and AS.

It all depends on the size of the group, the track and the relative mix. We used to run all the time with SM, but now they are just too huge a group and get to run by themselves. Small bore P cars work with us too.

The most fun were wet races with the SM(s)!!

[Ed Funk]

In the way of a general gripe/complaint....

Stewards are no different than other people - they don't want to make waves. "Minor" contact isn't going to draw their RFA unless something else provokes it.

Drivers are no different than other people - they don't want make waves. "Minor" contact isn't going to draw a protest unless something else provokes it.

Everybody see the problem? Don't expect the stewards to willingly be jerks.

Ya don't want to get hit by a special me... adopt your own zero-tolerance policy. FILE the bloody protest when someone hits you.

We've tried talking to the drivers in the paddock, what happens is you suddenly get 15 SM drivers in your face yelling and generally being beligerant, not going to be a pretty scene if I have to go to the "discussion" with my fender rolling tool in hand!

We've tried the paper route a couple of times, one time the steward didn't even want to give us the protest form (this was before he knew anything about the issue). Another time there were no witnesses! Even tho the corner was busy waving a yellow for our incident! So that one went no where.

We've approached the comp board chair and RE well in advance of the meeting setting the groups for the coming year, with our concerns.

So,jjanos what else would you suggest?:shrug:

[Andy Bettencourt]

We've approached the comp board chair and RE well in advance of the meeting setting the groups for the coming year, with our concerns.

Ed, you weren't around last year so you missed a serious crack-down on conact within SM and SSM. Drivers policing drivers from the corner stations. Logging of any contact (NER at NHIS specifically) and meetings to explain the issues.

I think you will find many more people willing to help you this year.

[jjjanos]

We've tried the paper route a couple of times, one time the steward didn't even want to give us the protest form (this was before he knew anything about the issue). Another time there were no witnesses! Even tho the corner was busy waving a yellow for our incident! So that one went no where.


re: not giving you the form:
Do the supps or the GCR require a specific form? I think not. "A protest shall be made in writing, specifying which sections of the GCR or other applicable rules are alleged to have been violated, and signed by the protestor. It shall be addressed to the Chief Steward and delivered to him in person or to the Assistant Chief Steward at the control point for the race."

If the CS or ACS won't accept a protest, then file paper work on them too.

Here's a protest form (see attachment)

Accepting a protest is NOT an optional matter for the CS or ACS. They SHALL receive protests and forward them to the SOM.

There are ALWAYS witnesses - the two drivers involved. There ALWAYS is additional evidence that can be reviewed if the witness statements conflict - the damage to the cars or a video tape from your car, his car or another car. It might not be conclusive, but it is there.

Similarly, a Corner Station might have only one witness to an incident (such as a pass) and the CS or ACS won't take independent action on that. YOU, however, are the second witness that overrides the other driver saying - no I didn't do that.

[Ed Funk]

What I'm trying to get accross is that we have tried several methods of dealing with this, so far it's been an exercize in frustration.

The time that it was "he said, she said" there was no video no witness and no action. This year will be different, there will be two cameras in both cars and there will be a blizzard of paper!:024:

[Ed Funk]

Ed, you weren't around last year so you missed a serious crack-down on conact within SM and SSM. Drivers policing drivers from the corner stations. Logging of any contact (NER at NHIS specifically) and meetings to explain the issues.

I think you will find many more people willing to help you this year.

We were around at the end of the season, and it was still a slug fest! In one weekend 4 SM and 1 itc car destroyed. I know that shit happens but some times it's just piss poor driving and/or judgement.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We were around at the end of the season, and it was still a slug fest! In one weekend 4 SM and 1 itc car destroyed. I know that shit happens but some times it's just piss poor driving and/or judgement.

But is that about SSM and ITC drivers or is that about a blind corner that exists during chicane/chicane at NHIS?

Either way, it is something NER is proactively trying to self-police.

[RSTPerformance]

Ed-

I know your fustrations with SM, and ITB... I think as others mentioned you really need to make sure you have a zero tolerance and video to prove who was in the wrong.

The weekend you reference was not a good one, the accident involving the ITC car could have happened with anyone and is more an issue of an unsafe corner rather than an incident with unsafe drivers. If anyone could have prevented the incident it would have been the ITC driver IMO.

Personally the best drivers I have run against are ITB (of course) and then the SM drivers. ITA is a close third ;)

Raymond "Try running with the yo yo's in the big bore classes!!! Yikes, now they are scary!!!" Blethen

[iambhooper]

we are usuall grouped with ITA, ITB, SSC, IT7 and SRX7 (when available) in the sprints. in the regionals, and the enduro's, you can through in the SRF's, SM, ITS and ITR rides.

we have between 2 and 4 ITC cars at any one weekend.

[JLawton]

Ed,
You should request (not that they would do it) to be thrown in with either ITS/ITB or with ITA. Adding a few ITC cars to the mix isn't going to upset the balance much. It's not like the ITC drivers are newbies and will decide the outcome of another class.

[lateapex911]

I thought the old ITA ITC mix was pretty good. Speed differennce between the classses was enough to separate and not be constantly tangling, but not that much of a speed difference to be dangerous. And maybe there's a lap lost for the ITC guys, but that's splitting hairs.

[shwah]

I have yet to see an ITC car race with me here in CenDiv. Our typical grouping is ITR,S,A,B,C,SMT,SSB,SSC all together. Never seen an ITC, or SSx car on the track with me.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Ed - You know that when they started grouping "C" with SSM that was the beginning of the end for me in ITC. Robert Karl, SR - SSM- took me out in the CRX going into Big Bend. I left him enough room to drive my 28 foot enclosed and my Hemi into to T-1, despite that fact tht he wasn't faster in the turns. He didn't like the fact that we could run competively with him - so he took me out. The "punt" cost me the race, won by John V's Bunny (well desrved I might ad, we were having a blast). Karl, tells his son in front of me, after the race that, "I needed to learn that racing was a contact sport." If you don't think I felt like a dick that I didn't protest him in impound after hearing that - well you get the picture. I heard from one of the officials that weeks previous he either put his car or another car on there roof (having trouble with the detail) - supposedly he was "being watched" - being watched - you gotta be kidding me. Okay - so he was another one of the beloved Miata divers, saving SCCA - our Savior - the new heart and soul of the club, and we were just ITC puke. Good luck my friend - It might be interesting to pick up a Protege and bump draft that 'remo" into T-1.
So long live Maita and SCCA - we are truly blessed - Right?

[Andy Bettencourt]

So long live Maita and SCCA - we are truly blessed - Right?
Love you to death bro but to make a blanket statment like that about a model and the SCCA is bogus. You yourself took the blame by not protesting a singular driver in that instance.

There are bad drivers in every class. There are good drivers who have driven badly (guilty) at times. Let's not blame the car for a drivers actions.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Love you to death bro but to make a blanket statment like that about a model and the SCCA is bogus. You yourself took the blame by not protesting a singular driver in that instance.

There are bad drivers in every class. There are good drivers who have driven badly (guilty) at times. Let's not blame the car (class) for a drivers actions. FIXED


Andy - I'm just adopting the mind set that I've heard the "powers to be" preaching the past few years (the one that sounds like if it weren't for SM and SSM are their car counts, where would we be as a club?) - It's not my original thought (I'm not sure I've ever had one frankly) - Sorry bro - I must confess to now being one of the Kool Aid drinkers - I'am a believer - Amen - Not a sarcastic bone in my body - really.

You have to admit from time to time a class of car (s) gets tagged as "Cowboys" - I remember when "A" had that distinction (the top 5 were forever destroying each other). I beleive that the Karl's had that "saddle up, giddy up, and ride em cowboy" thing goin' on - and yes they happened to be in a Maita - that's all - it is what it is.

Hey - I pulled out my cowboy boots the other day, dusted them off to see if they fit - Thought it might be time to take the heat off of Zoom Zoom guys. :p

[jjjanos]

There are bad drivers in every class. There are good drivers who have driven badly (guilty) at times. Let's not blame the car for a drivers actions.


While it is true there are bad drivers in every class, there is a much higher proportion of bad drivers in that class. Whether SM attracts sphincters or it creates sphincters is debatable. The past two 12 Hours at the Point have been S(S)M dominated in car counts and by 6PM, pretty much every single one of them has body damage. So is it the drivers doing it or the characteristics of the class forcing the drivers to do it to be competitive? Or is it, perhaps, an unwillingness of the Stewards to put on their bad cop hat?

What I will say this in defense of the car... a certain IT class at Summit was known for its carnage in the early 21st century BE that as it may, a new spec class come into being - SRX7. A large number of drivers declared that they were tired of being involved in carnage and were moving to the new class.

Carnage decreased in the old class and mayhem began in SRX7. Lo and behold! The very same drivers were involved in the carnage! Fast forward a few years, many of these SAME drivers have jumped into the new spec class.Plus, rustfree RX7 tubs were getting scarce. Mayhem! Chaos! Riot and ruin ensues... and, cue the Cassablanca tape, round up the usual suspects.

Sadly, there are way too many miatas on the road for the SRX7 effect to happen for many years.

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is something we can debate for years. I just hate to see that attitude because the issue is about drivers. Drivers who make contact a habit will do it in any car.

[Ed Funk]

:shrug:My take on the situation is that a lot of the back 1/2 of the Wreck-Me-Otter field drivers are confusing aggression with skill. They see the fast guys in their class in "exactly" the same equipment going "X.X" seconds per lap faster than they are and drive more aggressively rather than more skillfully.:024:

Could be wrong, it happened once before, when I thought I'd made a mistake!:D

[Rabbit05]

Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !:happy204:

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.

But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...

I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.

Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.

Are all drivers in SM bad ?..

.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!


My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....

plain and simple....



-John VanDenburgh

[spnkzss]

When you get into a Spec class, be it SM or SRX7, you are going to get that carnage/cowboy tag stamped to your forehead. It's the nature of the beast. Especially when you get large numbers of them. This is amateur racing, and when you get amateur together in cars that are "equal" (*cough* *cough*) you are going to get some rubbing. If all the IT classes were that close to being equal (no knock on ITAC, they have made it as level as can be) you would have the exact same thing. Personally, if I could afford to, I would love to go play with them, but can't afford the body repair monthly. I mean, look at NASCAR. You can barely go a week without seeing a car on it's roof and they are in a "spec" class and they are "professionals". It is what it is and that is what draws a lot of people to it.

Now with that said, because spec racing is "different" then IT type of racing, I think it is a bad idea to put IT cars with these Spec classes, unless you do a split start (which SCCA is not big on for various reasons). These guys (unless they started racing in another class) only know how to race other like cars. They know they need to be aggressive all the time or be run over/lose a position (almost like the DC beltway). I'm not trying to down play the level of racing in IT, I love it, but IT cars have weaknesses and strengths in different parts of the course, and you use them to your advantage (Unless you are at the ARRC running Spec CRX). Spec racing doesn't have that.

:shrug:

[Ed Funk]

Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !:happy204:

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.

But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...

I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.

Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.

Are all drivers in SM bad ?..

.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!


My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....

plain and simple....



-John VanDenburgh

Hey John, it was fun while it lasted and we'll miss you in itc, maybe everyone will miss us too, if the
VIN rule gets changed, we may go back to itb, already on the lookout for the necessary FI parts to convert the two cars. ITA/ITC was a good combo, maybe those in power don't want to see an itc car beat ita cars in the rain (Right Tim!?) In the mean time we'll keep beating our head on the wall 'cause it'll feel so good when we stop! or we'll race at other venues.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Hey John, it was fun while it lasted and we'll miss you in itc, maybe everyone will miss us too, if the
VIN rule gets changed, we may go back to itb, already on the lookout for the necessary FI parts to convert the two cars. ITA/ITC was a good combo, maybe those in power don't want to see an itc car beat ita cars in the rain (Right Tim!?) In the mean time we'll keep beating our head on the wall 'cause it'll feel so good when we stop! or we'll race at other venues.

Ed - You're going to make me search through the boxes again aren't you?- I think I have the wiring harness FI head, intake and fuel injection set up from my first days in "A". I believe I also have the short block too - something is living on that engine stand. I canablized an '87 CRX so the harness should be good for Steph's car.

Although many "C" drivers have come close to winning overall in the ITA/ITC days ( I think Brian M came in 2nd to Jake G at NHIS and I grabbed a 3rd at LRP behind Richie H and Rick B), I do not recall a "C" driver getting it ALL at the checkered. Am I wrong? Is there a "C" driver out there that has the bragging rights?? Love to hear it.

Let me know if I should look through the boxes again or if I gave you that stuff already.

[gran racing]

If all the IT classes were that close to being equal (no knock on ITAC, they have made it as level as can be)

The difference is in IT classes, cars have different advantages over other types. Greg's NX2000 had super power but the CRXs had better handling. In that situation, the NX driver could wait for a straight or a CRX could attempt a pass in the corners. SM cars in theory are equal throughout the track which makes people attempt passes where maybe they shouldn't.

The ITB / ITC grouping can create issues as well. I recall a few ITC cars down in the 1:04s at Lime Rock which is right were the front runners in ITB are. Having two classes where the front runners are right alongside with eachother could get interesting as well.

[Ed Funk]

[

Let me know if I should look through the boxes again or if I gave you that stuff already.
[/quote]

Hold on to it Tim, we're talking about getting a couple Spec Miatas!!:o:eek:

[Ed Funk]

The ITB / ITC grouping can create issues as well. I recall a few ITC cars down in the 1:04s at Lime Rock which is right were the front runners in ITB are. Having two classes where the front runners are right alongside with eachother could get interesting as well.[/quote]

I think the itc record is a high 1:04, and the itb record is a low 1:03, two seconds a lap puts me down at least a 1/2 lap but probably running in the front 1/3 of the itb field, I spent 15 years in that locale, I like those guys better than the SMs. Of course that assumes that I can get one of the Hondas down to the 1:04s, I think the cars can do it, and maybe I could if I wasn't being forced or punted into the weeds on the 2nd lap!:026:

[gran racing]

Low 1:03s won't happen in an ITB car until the repave, at least with a legal car. Low 1:04s and just touching high 1:03s, maybe.

[Andy Bettencourt]

IIRC, Richie Hunter hit 1:04 flat at the NARRC Runoffs in 2006 and at the 2007 event and Eric Langlius went 1:03.9.

Low 1:03's would be crazy on the current track. At this years Runoffs if teh weather holds, I bet it happens.

[Tkczecheredflag]

After reading thru this link again, my question is this - are the drivers (SSM/ITC) and Officials, doing all they can, to keep things safe (and respectable) when putting "C" cars in the SSM or SM mix? - and yes the SSM cars are Miatas and represent the majority of drivers - I can't get way from that fact AB. I think that is the basic question that is being asked here. I think if SRF was the "class" in question, we would be asking the same question about fords, and talking about fords - right? To that point - SRF is a spec class - I don't ever recall the "cowboy" tag being placed on the SRF guys. When I was flagging corners in the early '90's and the SRF fields were full, it appeared that they raced each other with respect, like true "amateurs" - that point was made, right - this is amateur racing. They weren't perfect - none of are - but they weren't cowboys either. If SRF registration was "saving SCCA" we would be asking the same questions of that spec class right? - it's not a bias against Miatas. So is enough being done?

The only other question I have would be this - was SSM driver, Karl Sr. right when he informed me I needed to "learn that racing is a contact sport", as a way of explaining why he punted me at LRP - ya see it's the attitide I am biased against - and that attitiude appears to be more accepted here - maybe that's my struggle.

If Karl was right then I need more "schooling" in this area - please let me know, as I am always open to learning.

[lateapex911]

Timmy, if I got that as a response after an incident that I felt was uncalled for, (and video and eye witnesses backed me up on) I'd be enraged. Really enraged, and would certainly not control my reaction as I probably should.

I would either/or, or maybe a combination of:
A- Call him all sorts of derogatory names and threaten him with bills and over the top repercusions...
B- March my pissy ass down to the tower and write up a scathing protest, complete with his quote, and eyewitness accounts of same, and find every last item on his car to throw the book at too.
C: Wait until a hot, muggy day, and follow him by a discreet distance as he uses a portapotty, then a quick wrap with duct tape and a heave ho!. followed by a "How do you like THAT contact sport, Sport?" and leave him to consider the deeper meanings of life....(that last one would probably cost me a few hundred to pay the company to do a cleanup, but it might be worth it.. ;)

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.

[JLawton]

If Karl was right then I need more "schooling" in this area - please let me know, as I am always open to learning.

As someone you run door handle to door handle with, I think ya got things juuuuuust right!!! ;)



The problem is two fold.

- SM/SSM is a great place for beginners. Cheap to have, easy to drive and reliable. Easy to feel like a hero at 9/10s but can easily bite you in the ass at 10/10s (so I've heard)

- Being a spec class, cars don't have advantages in different parts of the track like in IT. Passes are very difficult............Risky passes are inevitable.

The combination leads to craziness.

Again, is it too lake to request that ITC be put into the ITA run group?? I would love to run 'em in the rain!! ;)

[StephF]

I'm coming in late to this one because I had to walk away from this board for awhile after the last ITC thread.

I've never said, nor felt that any one class of drivers is awful because of the cars they choose to compete in.

I DO take exception to having my car damaged heavily enough that it has to go on a frame machine because a driver in another class ignored the most basic premise of the GCR: Sportsmanlike conduct.

I don't care WHAT group you are in, the old "rubbing is racing" and "racing is a contact sport" is just another way of saying you are too much of a pantywaist to be able to run cleanly and competitively without punting/slamming/blocking/chopping/and otherwise driving like a total dickwad.

If you can't make a pass stick without taking someone out, get out of the car. You don't belong there. If you think it's OK to ruin someone elses' car, and cause them financial pain to better your finishing position because you can't do it cleanly, then get out of the car now. And if you think it's OK to be snickering in the paddock about hitting someone, then you, sir or madam, and a total POS, and I DON'T mean point of sale.

Accidental contact is one thing. Deliberate, malicious, boneheaded contact should be dealt with swiftly and severely, no matter WHAT group it is. Somehow, we have moved away from that as a club, to the point that someone is going to get killed or severely injured from it.
Pretty sporting that is, huh? "Hey man, sorry you're a parapalegic, that really sucks, but hey, I'm the NARRC champion! Like my f-ing ashtray?"

What happend to Tim is completely unacceptable. That guy should have been punted out of the club for a few races and sent back to a driver's school if he was to return.

Also,here's a reminder to a few of the folks running out there: No matter WHAT race group you run in, you should not actively interfere with another race groups lead battle unless you are in a heated battle for position within your own group. And by that I mean blocking, chopping, slamming into etc.

Personally I am sick and tired of the condescending attitude (from some people, not all of you) that has been shown over this whole issue any time the groupings come up. I understand the difficulty of making fair groupings speed wise. And I've heard the pat answer, "Well not everyone will like it, oh well, tough noogies for you." (first I was told that our current grouping was because the two groups are the closest time wise, now suddenly we are grouped with faster cars, yet not other IT cars...what's up with that?)

And now, we have people coming on this site saying, well looks like C's dead, lets kill it completely and 'craft a solution' because this is what 'the market wants'. Meanwhile, just in this one thread, there have been drivers (that's plural, folks) coming in saying, "I am now out of C BECAUSE OF THIS GROUPING."

We are supposed to be a club, not a dictatorship like NASA. And if everyone in the race class is saying the same thing, then how about the courtesy of hearing what we are trying to say and actually LOOKING at the situation to see if it isn't a good fit?

If it turns out that there just plain isn't an easy place, then we should examine other options, such as allowing a split start when there are X number of C cars entered. Then we both run off and play without pissing each other off.

(now you see why I had to walk away from the last thread....)

[cpm motorsports]

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.


I should probably keep my 'two cents' out of this, and in the race car purse where it belongs, but my question is this, how did the SSM/SM drivers, get the term "Cowboys", if that is not in fact the way they drive.

[Ed Funk]

Now you guys have done it!! I'm glad I'm gettin' out of Dodge for a few days! She'll either slap me silly! or slap me, silly!:happy204:

Seriously, she makes some very good points, I wish I could argue with that much eloquence, instead of my usual "Oh, yeah!?! Well, F*** Off!"

I think it's too late to re-do the groupings for this year, I just wish someone could explain the reluctance to have split starts. Tho, that doesn't help with practice/qualifying, where I've also had issues with the "other" class---thought that one had the potential of being a 10 on one brawl! Luckily, Steph was there and she has a cooler head and a much more effective right hook!

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think many people make a big mistake in categorizing a whole class based on a few drivers. If a 10 car field has 1 or 2 questionable moves, then a 30 car SM field will have 3-4 questionable moves. It's a simple math thing - when you add to that some of the factors Lawton correctly points out, the dynamics are slightly different - not to say acceptable - but different.

And I don't thing ANYONE said what happened to Tim is ok. Not at all.

Split starts for 2-3 ITC cars? No way. I am no expert on SS, but I am betting a little more space is needed in order to pull them off safely and consistantly than the 1.5 mile tracks were run on. Plus, think about the start proceedure at NHIS...

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues. They most certainly have. Heck, the biggest field of FV's I have ever seen was at the NARRC Runoffs this past year...I counted 4 TOTALLED cars and 2 more damaged before their run group was over. Numbers count for something.

Having said all that, I must repeat myself. Serge has spearheaded a groundswell to self-police the SM and SSM groups. It seemed to have worked well last year other than a few freak acidents that weren't attributed to any 'copboy' antics.

The size of ITC being what it is, I think it could float into the ITA, IT7, SSB, SSC, T3 NARRC group if you HONESTLY think the SM grouping is keeping cars away. Send a note to the committee. Let's all be part of the solution.

[StephF]

I think many people make a big mistake in categorizing a whole class based on a few drivers. If a 10 car field has 1 or 2 questionable moves, then a 30 car SM field will have 3-4 questionable moves. It's a simple math thing - when you add to that some of the factors Lawton correctly points out, the dynamics are slightly different - not to say acceptable - but different.

And I don't thing ANYONE said what happened to Tim is ok. Not at all.

Split starts for 2-3 ITC cars? No way. I am no expert on SS, but I am betting a little more space is needed in order to pull them off safely and consistantly than the 1.5 mile tracks were run on. Plus, think about the start proceedure at NHIS...

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues. They most certainly have. Heck, the biggest field of FV's I have ever seen was at the NARRC Runoffs this past year...I counted 4 TOTALLED cars and 2 more damaged before their run group was over. Numbers count for something.

Having said all that, I must repeat myself. Serge has spearheaded a groundswell to self-police the SM and SSM groups. It seemed to have worked well last year other than a few freak acidents that weren't attributed to any 'copboy' antics.

The size of ITC being what it is, I think it could float into the ITA, IT7, SSB, SSC, T3 NARRC group if you HONESTLY think the SM grouping is keeping cars away. Send a note to the committee. Let's all be part of the solution.


#1: See second sentence in my previous post.
#2: Re; split start: Dave Parker said this:

Ed
Yes, the 2005 class grouping of SRX7 and ITC caused me to leave ITC and go to H Production for the 2006 season.
Lots of reasons, but mostly I got tired of idiots beating up my racecar and the Stewards doing nothing about it.
Apparently the same class grouping was alot better in 2006, but I attribute that to the efforts of the drivers rep (John Burkhard) lobbying the Stewards for a "split grid" start and some familiarity of the drivers in the two classes having run together for a year.
For the most part I have found that the DC Region Production guys do not want to hit each other.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion
__________________
"Ignore All Confrontations With Common Sense."

Sounds like it is working there. Why not here?

#3: Re. self policing. I certainly hope this is true, but I will believe it when I see it. You see, we missed most of last season (as you pointed out to Ed earlier) You remember why?
Mmmm....Yeah that's right. It was because we had to spend the bulk of last season fixing damage coused by a really STUPID move by a driver in another class at LRP. This driver made a kamikazee move that took out our car, and the 3 top cars running in C that day.

One of them permanently.

John vanDenburgh wrote:
Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.
But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...
I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.
Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.
Are all drivers in SM bad ?..
.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!
My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....
plain and simple....
-John VanDenburgh

You ever try to walk into Honda and just pick up a new hatch assembly (plus all the glass) for an 80's era car? They don't exactly have the shelves stocked with them. By the time a decent donor car was found, and the car came back from having the frame straightened, it was late summer.
Am I still pissed? Yeah, I am.
You see, I don't see anyone else writing the checks for these things. We don't send out our cars to the prep shops and arrive and drive. We are two people who are both working full time, and then spending time and money out in the shop on our cars. I work shoulder to shoulder with Ed on them. And in this case, we had just gotten this car back from having a new cage put in, and having rewired everything. It was beautiful.
Second race, we have a car that's almost crumpled in an incident that was absolutely avoidable and pointless.

So tell me Andy, who exactly is in charge of the grouping?
Sometimes you say things that make it sound like ITAC is just an advisory commitee.
Then other times you make remarks like you are the decision making process.
Maybe I am a bit behind the Who's Who in NERSCCA, but somehow this decision happens. Please tell me the process used to do it.
Thank you.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Timmy, if I got that as a response after an incident that I felt was uncalled for, (and video and eye witnesses backed me up on) I'd be enraged. Really enraged, and would certainly not control my reaction as I probably should.

I would either/or, or maybe a combination of:
A- Call him all sorts of derogatory names and threaten him with bills and over the top repercusions...
B- March my pissy ass down to the tower and write up a scathing protest, complete with his quote, and eyewitness accounts of same, and find every last item on his car to throw the book at too.
C: Wait until a hot, muggy day, and follow him by a discreet distance as he uses a portapotty, then a quick wrap with duct tape and a heave ho!. followed by a "How do you like THAT contact sport, Sport?" and leave him to consider the deeper meanings of life....(that last one would probably cost me a few hundred to pay the company to do a cleanup, but it might be worth it.. ;)

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.

Jake - Unfortuantely, the video proof arrived from in my e-mail box a few days after the event from a fellow racer who was a few hundred feet behind us - I am struggling to find it and post it for your review - I am still searching - If the racer who sent me the original video is following this thread- send it again please. The other suggestions and advice are duly noted - I am not "anti Miata" - people who know me, also know that I climbed in and out of several Miatas as I was considering my next step in racing - I like the car but it's tough to get my big ass inside them and equally important, out.


Steph - You rasie ALL the right issues - especially with the empahsis on safety. Drivers need to spend more time on the corners with a flag in their hand and listening to the radio, to fully understand how quickly things can get really, really bad after a wreck.

Andy - I don't claim to have the answers here, and my recollection of SRF is the best I can remember and is only one F&C Officials' recollection. Remind me, have you held a National F&C license? - I am not trying to be a smart ass but F&C holds it's own perspective and is different from a drivers perspective. I think I am feeling that if someone acted on Karl, Sr in a official capacity while he was putting cars on their roof and punting drivers, it would have set the different/right standard for others to follow that raced with him - especially when the other's "driving experience" is in question. By not doing that "we" (and I'll take my piece of the ownership here), condoned his behavior for anyone to emulate. His card should have been pulled for attitude alone. Also, I am hearing two things about "C"- cars aren't "showing up" and drivers are leaving ITC - leaving!

[lateapex911]

Steph-
Andy is on the ITAC. It's the advisory crew that makes rules for the IT category. (It's a group of 7-9 guys from around the country)

This is a regional issue, and Andy is on several regional committees. In other parts of the country, the race groupings are different.

I was confused when the groupings changed here locally as to why the C guys were dropped from the ITA group. The mix of speeds was not too close, not too far apart, it was just right. And since there are maybe 5 or 6 C cars at any event max, it seems like they could have been shoehorned in. But I wasn't there for the discussion, and other factors, like neighboring regions groupings may have played into the decision.

SMs DO regularly find themselves in racing situations where close running and aggressive passing must be done...and there are more of them, so the sheer numbers will drive up incident counts, but...look at the front of the SM and SSM packs...guys like Payson and Leverone don't seem to get the cars all dinged up...at least to my unscrupulous eye.

So I don't count the "class" responsible, but, if Timmy is correct in his allegations (and I have no reason to doubt him) there are certainly attitude problems, and those are the most serious. If I was told that I wasn't at fault for contact, yet I didn't deserve an apology, that I'd better get used to it because "That's the way it is..." I'd be ripped!

(This from a guy who ended up being the meat of a three car sandwich, which resulted in two of us visiting Armco and damaging the cars too greatly to race. While I wasn't directly at fault, I offered to work on the guys car who I was bumped into and do whatever I could to get the car on the track for the race. He declined, and I was lucky enough to have friends dive in and offer parts to put my car back together. Since I had a couple busted ribs from the hit, that was a HUGE help. Made the race, started 67th, finished 23rd in 7 laps, and didn't touch a single molecule of anyone else's car in the process. To me that's the way the SCCA should work. We all occasionally have it go wrong, and we all pitch in to get whoever needs the help going again.)

[dickita15]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.
Dick - Maybe that's the answer - let the herd thin themself out (okay I don't really mean that). To your point though - the car and the class are the same - it's hard to separate one from the other - doesn't mean I/we are anti - Miata - but it is what it is. We know that ALL Miata drivers and not the problem but for those that are the problem - well, what did my mom say - "show me your company and I'll tell you what you are", - it's a lot about perception - I think I see what I see and therefore it is, and sometimes that is offensive to the "not guilty." If it's that offensive - fix it - or own, the choice is their's.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Steph,

I submit split starts aren't worth the risk for 2 ITC cars. I also submit that on the small tracks we run on, it may be an even worse idea. I read the original post and since Dave is a DC guy, I bet he is talking about Summit Point. Like I said, I am no expert on SS's but from what I have seen, there needs to be a pretty big reason to do them.

I understand you are pissed about your car. I understand it wasn't your fault. I also bet you understand the risks you take every time you hit the track. But understand that steps have been made to improve the situation. I am trying to tell you about them.

I have given you the name of the comp chair. I have suggested that you contact them. If they thought they were losing a couple members because of a grouping issue, they might try and work something out. Have you expressed your displeasure in an official capacity yet? What was the official response? Unwilling to help out? A 'wait and see'? Let us all know.

I am interested in solutions. My biggest pet-peave is bickering about an issue when nothing has been officially asked of anyone or presented as a problem for someone to try and solve. Taking your ball and going home isn't my style.

As Jake said, the ITAC and NER have nothing to do with each other. If you have an issue, contact Serge or Jerry. They would be happy to put you and your issue/solution on an agenda at the next meeting.

Tim,

Told you so! :)

Dick,

What can we do to fix that attitude problem? It's BS. When we are on track, we are all equal if we are aware of what is going on and we are sensitive to the situations other drivers are in. Task me with the situation and I will do my best in any capacity you want. Bad Cop? You bet.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues.

Andy - If this is the "I told you so" - then you and Dick are helping to make my point - It's hard ot separate the class (SSM) and the car (Miata). - I'm not "anti anything".

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim there absolutely was a problem in the early days of Spec Racer. We called the Spec Rambo. Ask Steph about the old cartoon with the spec racer with a 50 caliber mounted on the back. As regional fields thinned out the problem lessened.
Andy, dude, sorry if you don’t see it but there is an attitude issue with a large group of the SM and SSM drivers. There is a sense of entitlement that is very unattractive. For many their loyalty is not to SCCA or even Mazda but to SM.
Thanks for the clarification and the help.

[StephF]

Steph,

I submit split starts aren't worth the risk for 2 ITC cars. I also submit that on the small tracks we run on, it may be an even worse idea. I read the original post and since Dave is a DC guy, I bet he is talking about Summit Point. Like I said, I am no expert on SS's but from what I have seen, there needs to be a pretty big reason to do them.

I understand you are pissed about your car. I understand it wasn't your fault. I also bet you understand the risks you take every time you hit the track. But understand that steps have been made to improve the situation. I am trying to tell you about them.

I have given you the name of the comp chair. I have suggested that you contact them. If they thought they were losing a couple members because of a grouping issue, they might try and work something out. Have you expressed your displeasure in an official capacity yet? What was the official response? Unwilling to help out? A 'wait and see'? Let us all know.

I am interested in solutions. My biggest pet-peave is bickering about an issue when nothing has been officially asked of anyone or presented as a problem for someone to try and solve. Taking your ball and going home isn't my style.

As Jake said, the ITAC and NER have nothing to do with each other. If you have an issue, contact Serge or Jerry. They would be happy to put you and your issue/solution on an agenda at the next meeting.

Tim,

Told you so! :)

Dick,

What can we do to fix that attitude problem? It's BS. When we are on track, we are all equal if we are aware of what is going on and we are sensitive to the situations other drivers are in. Task me with the situation and I will do my best in any capacity you want. Bad Cop? You bet.

Andy;
Over the course of the last season, Ed & I spoke to the other drivers who were participating in ITC. They all said that they were not happy, and wanted out of the ITC/Spec Miata grouping.

Based on their input, at NHIS at the end of last year, Ed and I went to Serge and our RE from last year(whose name has just completely escaped me) and asked both of them for a change of grouping to another IT class.

We passed along the information that ALL of the drivers left in ITC had expressed support for this change.

We were under the impression after talking to both of them that it was a done deal for 2008. We were told (albiet informally) that there should be no problem switching C back to a another IT group.

OK, so so now it looks like we were also supposed to have followed it up formally by going to the meetings too.

But, based on their collective reactions, we felt that they did not find a problem with it, and thought this was going to happen. It did not.
SO...... back to the drawing board once more.

Andy, thank you for the clarification that ITAC has nothing to do with it. My bad, from all of the input you had given us concerning this, I was under the impression that it was part of the process, not a nonbinding advisary commitee.
I will not bother you with it any longer.

And, one last clarification before I once again walk away from here: I simply want to run with a group that handles in the same fashion as my car does.
That is it.
Plain and simple.
I don't care what anyone else drives.
I (we, meaning other C drivers) want a safer race grouping than what has been happening.
And we want to keep our numbers and increase them again so we can have some fun without having to always go out of region.
Period.

[grjones1]

I think the problem with grouping stems not so much from speed differenials between classes as it does with handling characteristics. ITC doesn't mix well with SM/SSm or Sp7 because the IT cars will understeer before they exhibit the tail-happiness of the mazdas. Thus things go awry when the groups attempt to share a corner.

Things went better at Summit Point not so much because of split starts but when ITC was grouped with ITB where it belongs. Because B and C pretty much use the same basic techniques, drivers know what to expect from the cars around them.

If the competition committees would confer with the drivers before they establish groups, they would get a better idea of what cars play better together. This is not meant to be pejorative of the committees; they have much to consider: numbers, race schedule, etc. But a primary concern must be to match classes that run more safely together. Sometimes it appears that the race formatters lose sight of the basics when they are pressured by so many interests (corner worker fatigue, over-subscribed classes, and the like) but just like it's not a good idea to run open- and closed- wheel cars together or production classes with "stock" classes, sometimes other factors such as handling charateristics must be considered.

Forgive me if I belabor the obvious.

[Ed Funk]

My turn again, then I'm outta here to visit my mother in Kansas.
Andy you indicated that the SM/SSM crowd were not cowboys, maybe not, maybe it's the cowgirl that needs to be controlled. I've been forced into the weeds on more than one occassion by Shelby, when I was completely beside her! At first I thought that she suffered from major tunnel vision, but Steph has been forced over the curb twice on a pace lap both times by Shelby. This is the same Shelby that in her first race in a Prod car after being signed off the day before took herself and another car out very early in the race when she tried to take 3 at NHIS completely without regard for the car that was BESIDE her! ?Tunnel vision or over aggression? Don't know but that is one "cowgirl" that is going to hurt someone someday! How many of the wrecked SM/SSM's at the last NHIS race were secondary to her? I was spectating at the south chicane when she made a completely bone head move and took herself and another SM out.

If they have to drive that aggressively I don't want to be in their group!! Oh, I actually have a friend or two that drive SM/SSM they're good guys rarely have body damage and finish well.

Couple of side comments and then I'm headed for the airport---
This thread was titled "Question for all ITC drivers"
What the hell kind of 7 year old girl comment is "Told you so"?!? Tell Tim to f*** off or something!

[JoshS]

Andy, thank you for the clarification that ITAC has nothing to do with it. My bad, from all of the input you had given us concerning this, I was under the impression that it was part of the process, not a nonbinding advisary commitee.

Just want to be clear -- it's not because the ITAC is a non-binding advisory committee that it has nothing to do with race groupings.

The ITAC helps the CRB with the content of the GCR, nothing more. That means, what sorts of modifications can you make to your car, at what weight does it race, etc.

The ITAC and CRB are national committees.

The race groupings are not specified in any way by any national group. The SCCA staff, the CRB, and the ITAC all have absolutely zero say in it. No influence, no recommendations, no discussion at all.

Decisions about race groupings, race schedules, etc., are part of individual race administration, and that is done entirely by the regions that sanction races.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess my point Ed is that you have had multiple issues with one driver. Doesn't seem like a classes worth of issue, just a singular problem in your case. Maybe not, just reading what you wrote. Hey, there are plenty of 'cowboys' in SM for sure. Just might be a function of a few more issues than a 'Miata'. Tim's original sentiment that they are teh SCCA's darling just irked me, that's all. Every class has cowboys, it just happens that SM usually pulls in double the drivers in most classes and 10X others so there is more 'chance' for crap.

And it most certainly seems as if you guys have done your due dilligence WRT a request. I encourage you to follow up with the NER Comp board and ask to get changed. The size of ITC would seem to be very manuveable around the groups.

In this case, I am just another racer from NER who wants everyone to play nice...and has watched NER proactlvely make an effort to help it's drivers on very crowded racetracks. I think we can continue the posative trend, but we all have to work at it.

[JLawton]

[quote=Ed Funk;261722]
Andy you indicated that the SM/SSM crowd were not cowboys, maybe not, maybe it's the cowgirl . I've been forced into the weeds on more than one occassion by Shelby, when I was completely beside her! At first I thought that she suffered from major tunnel vision, but Steph has been forced over the curb twice on a pace lap both times by Shelby. This is the same Shelby that in her first race in a Prod car after being signed off the day before took herself and another car out very early in the race when she tried to take 3 at NHIS completely without regard for the car that was BESIDE her! ?Tunnel vision or over aggression? Don't know but that is one "cowgirl" that is going to hurt someone someday! How many of the wrecked SM/SSM's at the last NHIS race were secondary to her? I was spectating at the south chicane when she made a completely bone head move and took herself and another SM out.

quote]

This is what happens when you don't have to pay for your car or the damage to it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, lets get back on track here (literally).

I think a well placed call to Serge might remind him of your request. Maybe he can still do something. ITC is so small it can fit anywhere. If we are losing participants because of something real or perceived, we need to try and remidy the situation.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Andy - It was not my intention to "irk" anyone - For that I apologize. I try to quickly admit when I am wrong. The question was addressed to "C" drivers concerning this race grouping. I offered my personal experience and observations, as well as my opinion on "other's comments" concerning SM and SSM (I didn't make the original comments, they are just my opinion about our "new savior" shared by others - I thought they were appropriate leading up to "holy week"). In addition this is an IT web site - If we can't "air it out here" then what's the point of raising the question - Just send us to our room with no dessert like an unruly child.:shrug:

That being said - the personal experince of others have "outted" some piss poor drivers. I have no vendetta against SM or SSM and I have no bias - The question might be "Do you have a bias?" I think some times when you "chime in" you are protecting your turf - I have no turf to protect on this thread - That doesn't mean I shouldn't share my experience nor should you - we're talking right?

So, as someone who acts in a official capacity, is respected , and has the ear of this club, what are you offering as it relates to Shelby and Karl. When I raised Karl's driving ability to one of the Stewards I was told he was "in the book" and was being watched. Would I enjoy the same exception and priviledges if I started taking out drivers and making idiot comments about my actions during a race? - I suspect not. Hell I got "pulled in on the carpet" for running a safe wet race line. Grant it - It was a politcal cluster F%#@ that I got stuck in the middle of and was more of an F&C issue, put there lies the problem. As a driver I have to defend myself for using good judgement (the cornerworker's protest <maybe a first> was not upheld), and drivers that use bad judgement get put in a "black book." - See the problem.

Are you the "pot calling the kettle black" or am I wrong about what I percieve as your bias. If I am wrong, I apologize and have to ask - what's next Champ? I think it's all fixable, just like the wrecked cars - and hopefully less costly and less painful.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - It was not my intention to "irk" anyone - For that I apologize. I try to quickly admit when I am wrong. The question was addressed to "C" drivers concerning this race grouping. I offered my personal experience and observations, as well as my opinion on "other's comments" concerning SM and SSM (I didn't make the original comments, they are just my opinion about our "new savior" shared by others - I thought they were appropriate leading up to "holy week"). In addition this is an IT web site - If we can't "air it out here" then what's the point of raising the question - Just send us to our room with no desert like an unruly child.:shrug:

That being said - the personal experince of others have "outted" some piss poor drivers. I have no vendetta against SM or SSM and I have no bias - The question might be "Do you have a bias?" I think some times when you "chime in" you are protecting your turf - I have no turf to protect on this thread - That doesn't mean I shouldn't share my experience nor should you - we're talking right?

We are going to have to agree to diagree. The answer I am sure is somewhere in the middle. Yes, we have some specific drivers mentioned. My point is that it is very possible that these drivers would be a problem in any class they raced in. Your continued comments about 'our new savior' and not specific drivers seem misdirected, especially connected with your sly names for the class. It's obvious to me that you have a bias when you speak in general terms instead of specifics.

I don't THINK I am bias (who does?) but since I see both sides and have raced in both worlds I feel we need to target the bevavior of certain drivers not corral everyone under one umbrella. EVERY class has cowboys. The question is simple - does SM have MORE cowboys per race entry than any other class or does it just seem so because there are always 40+ of them around every weekend? Perception can be reality yes, but when some are threatening to not come back, I would think they would dig a little deeper.


So, as someone who acts in a official capacity, is respected , and has the ear of this club, what are you offering as it relates to Shelby and Karl. When I raised Karl's driving ability to one of the Stewards I was told he was "in the book" and was being watched. Would I enjoy the same exception and priviledges if I started taking out drivers and making idiot comments about my actions during a race? - I suspect not. Hell I got "pulled in on the carpet" for running a safe wet race line. Grant it - It was a politcal cluster F%#@ that I got stuck in the middle of and was more of an F&C issue, put there lies the problem. As a driver I have to defend myself for using good judgement (the corner works protest <maybe a first> was not upheld), and drivers that use bad judgement get put in a "black book." - See the problem.

Are you the "pot calling the kettle black" or am I wrong about what I percieve as your bias. If I am wrong, I apologize and have to ask - what's next Champ? I think it's all fixable, just like the wrecked cars - and hopefully less costly and less painful.

I guess nobody is reading the thread. There has been and is a groundswell to proactively self police. It seemed to work well last year. Each and everyone of you who has a gripe has the ability to protest a driver. As someone who has been protested once for showing a 'lack of patience' (guilty) it can and should be done. The situation as you describe it is so far from acceptable that you needed to protest. You NEEDED to. To come back years later and bash a class for it is what my problem is. Is it weird that "Crazy Joe" is heralded by some for some of his driving exploits yet if that was an SM in some of those videos, that person would be a 'cowboy'? See MY point?

ANYWAY........let's all watch SM self-police itself again in 2008 and continue to make form our opinions. Every class and every driver can improve. I know I can. Let's also present our issues to the local PTB and try and affect change. And fer-christs-sake, use the protest vehicle you have to police your own patch.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Amen To That Brother!

Please keep in mind that any "class comments" are echoes and not "original thoughts" - I don't own them but have repeated them.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Amen To That Brother!

Now stop wasting time and put the finishing touches on that Laser / Protege / Pacer project!!!!!!

More IT cars!!!!

[Tkczecheredflag]

As someone you run door handle to door handle with, I think ya got things juuuuuust right!!! ;)

Jeff - I keep forgetting to say thanks for the Kudos. We have had some fun and I look forward to more of those times again soon.

[JLawton]

Jeff - I keep forgetting to say thanks for the Kudos. We have had some fun and I look forward to more of those times again soon.


I spent about an hour last night watching our videos on Youtube. I tell ya Tim, I learned more from watching you in the videos than years of actual experience!! I won't be getting killed through 1 & 2 ANYMORE!! :)


Four more weeks................:eclipsee_steering:

[Tkczecheredflag]

I spent about an hour last night watching our videos on Youtube. I tell ya Tim, I learned more from watching you in the videos than years of actual experience!! I won't be getting killed through 1 & 2 ANYMORE!! :)


Four more weeks................:eclipsee_steering:

When it's all said and done all we have are bragging rights, the video, and if we're lucky a trophy.

FYI - I'm not using those race lines thru 1 and 2 anymore. I found a new/better/progressive line - the preferred way around - Stay behind me and I'll show you.:p

See ya soon- Although I am not confirmed for 4-13 yet.