E36 vs E46

[Tom Donnelly]

I'm looking at daily drivers and wondered if I could get some opinions of the E36 vs E46.
I race an ITS Datsun but I've been looking at some good used bimmers. Nothing new,
just some 1998 / 99 325's vs the '00 328. Anything in particular I should look for? Any
opinions? What breaks? Which is better? That kind of stuff.
Thanks,
Tom

[Andy Bettencourt]

Pricing on later E36 M3's is awesome now. I had one and they are just great cars. You might be able to get into a 97 or 98 for the price of a 00 328.

[Tom Donnelly]

Didn't think about that. I'll take a look.
Thanks.

[kthomas]

Tom-
Proly way cheaper to get into an E36, and way cheaper to hot rod. I have a 2001 E46 330ci because I love the E46 body, but parts are silly dollars compared to an old Z! Whichever way you go be sure to have Tony B at Buckhead MotorWorks do the servicing you don't do yourself. bimmerforums.com and e46fanatics.com are my two fav sites if you want to do some research.

Luuuuke, come to the daaaaaark side!.

[JeffYoung]

This is a bit of an oddball, but if you have $15k-20k, and don't need 4 seats, the 98/99/00 M Coupe is a GREAT car. I had one from 00-03, sold it to go racing....mistake!....lol.....

There's only a couple thousand in the US, so very unique. For two adults + luggage (or dog) it has a lot of room -- the hatch is huge. I used to carry my greyhound and luggage for weekend get aways. The S52 motor is AWESOME, probably a better street mill than the S54 (just as torquey, and more reliable). It does have the E30 suspension in the back as opposed to the better setup on the E36, but for non track driving, you'll be fine (and I enjoyed mine on track too).

Brakes are great. YOu have to watch the subframe mounts and shock towers.

If you need 4 seats, you can't go wrong with a late model E36 M3 though. Not as stylish maybe as the M Coupe (although some would debate that...lol..) but an incredibly competent car.

If I were looking for a 50-70k street car for $15k, the E36 M3 and S52 E36/8 M Coupe would be at the top of the list. M Coupe if I could live with 2 seats, E36 M3 if I needed four.

[JoshS]

Just have to agree w/Jeff -- I had mine from '98-'02 and even to this day regret selling it. I'm lucky to be racing its slower cousin now.

BTW, there's no such thing as a '98 M Coupe, '99 was the first year. The M Roadster did first appear as a '98.

[JeffYoung]

Josh, little known fact - a few early M Coupes came over and were titled as 98s. I actually drove one at Performance BMW in Chapel Hill. Not many, you are correct, but they exist.

I FINALLY about have this ITR spreadsheet done. When is the next ITAC call? I'll make sure to get it to you before then.

Man I miss that car. Wish I never sold it. About a year later, I couldn't stand driving the Burb on a daily basis and I bought a 93 Esprit. Mistake! I should have just kep the M Coupe. Such a better car.

Mine was an 00, Oxford Green, Tan interior. Yours?

[JoshS]

I know ... some made it to the used market after doing the press tours and BMW events. I know of 2. No '98s were sold new. But it's SO rare that there's no point in telling people about them.

The next ITAC call is 3/24, I think.

My M Coupe was Estoril Blue/Black. '99. Ordered it 5/98, got it 9/98. First one at my dealer (other than the "demo" cars that were there to show and test-drive, but were not to be sold until the first customer-ordered cars were delivered.)

[JLawton]

My daily is an E36 M3. Man, do I love driving to work every morning!! Mine had a 100K miles on it and I bought it from a very anal BMWCCA guy for $12K. It's in fantastic shape. He put coil overs on it with adjustable Koni's (A little over the top for a street car, but what the hell!!)

I wanted a sports car but needed a back seat for the kids. I've had a few minor problems with it but nothing I couldn't fix myself..............So far..............<knocking on wood>.....

And during the summer with my 17" wheels I get 26-27 MPG.

There are a lot of beat E36s that were owned by kids, so you need to watch out for that. PLus, it's a REAL M3 cause it still has the rear wing!! :cool:






.

[Ron Earp]

My daily is an E36 M3. Man, do I love driving to work every morning!! Mine had a 100K miles on it and I bought it from a very anal BMWCCA guy

.

Very anal BMWCCA guys are fairly easy to find!

I also had an E36 M3 from a similar previous owner and loved it. 1998 model with all the options and it was extremely competent and fun to drive. Plus, it could carry four adults. I wish I'd not sold that car but I sold it to get the truck to start racing, so I suppose it is a decent thing to do.

Later in the year I'll be looking for another fun driver and if I hadn't already owned an M3 I'd be after one again. I too need four seats so this time around I might be looking for a 993 Porsche, the last runs of air cooled 911s.

Can't go wrong with an E36 M3, get one!

[lateapex911]

I just picked up a 2003 M3. Way more civilized than I expected. Lawton nailed the big picture....get an E36 M3, but be careful of high miles and questionable owners. These cars have been around for 10 years or more now, and they are cheap enough that guys who don't have the proper money can scratch and get one...then put aero crap on it instead of proper oil changes.

Ron, did you say the "Last of the great air cooled 911s"? Don't you REALLY mean the 73 911S or 911E??

;)

[dj10]

Being a former Porsche and BMW driving school instructor I got to drive some very nice cars, from twin turbo Porsches to the lightweight E36 M3, and this was on the track. :~) I was actually looking for a E36 M3 when I came across my E46 M3. If the E46 M3 is not in your budget, have no fear about getting the E36 M3. The E36 M3 I drove at Nelson Ledges did everything you could ask and more. It was one hell of a car! If I remember correctly, I got yelled at for passing to many cars including vetts, porsches and numerous other cars and I was driving about 7/ 10's.

[Ron Earp]

Ron, did you say the "Last of the great air cooled 911s"? Don't you REALLY mean the 73 911S or 911E??

;)

My buddy Ed has a 911S, can't remember exactly what year, but it is cool. Neat cars, and he just built a 2.7L motor for it and it'll keep all the mechanical injection and so on - that is the part I find a bit cantankerous! He still has the original 2.2L motor and all that good stuff, but he is wanting a bit more power out of it while he drives it. I'd opt for the later model 993s though as a driver.

[JeffYoung]

There is a reason why when you go to a BMW CCA event you see a ton of E36 M3s. Not as canterkous as the E30 M3, and more character than a E46. Perfect daily driver/track day car split I think.

BMW in the late 90s made some "stuff" didn't they? The "normal" 3 was a great sedan. The M Coupe and Roadster great raucous sports cars. The 540i 6 speed about the perfect sports sedan with the M5 just being more of the same.

It's funny. I have a Lotus Exige at the moment, great track car and not a bad daily. But if I got rid of it,the car I would want? An E39 M5.

By the way, Tom, that's another car to look at. You can get E39 540i 6 speeds now for $15 to 20k. A bit porky, but still a blast to drive, trackable if you wish, and cruise at 80 mph like no other manual sports sedan I know of.

Ah, the BMW love thread.......

[fairgentleman Z]

I was looking at the E36 and E46 as well for a DD, autocross, and track day car. My question is what is up with the rear sub frame issues? I've heard that the Ms are reinforced and Turner sells an extensive kit (welding, ect, required).

First, what to look for when buying?
Are the reinforcement kits Street Touring and IT legal?

[JeffYoung]

It will pull out of its mount to the body. Just needs some welding up to reinforce it. Not a huge issue if you take the preventative step.

[lateapex911]

Jeff, it's not just the 90s...
I just got a 2003 M3 cab, with 25K miles on it. neat car, for the price of a well equipped new Accord . I COULD have looked at the new 135i Cab for a little more money...that engine has gotten lots of raves, and would be nearly as quick. And the new 3 series body style is growing on me. The new M3 is sick, no doubt, but a bit spendy. (But hey, that's my gain, it puts a glut of old M3s on the market, LOL)

You're right on the 540. CHEAP car used! Definately the way to LOOK like you've got some bucks, when you don't, LOL.

The E36 is a great car....not TOO civilized or refined, but fine for the street, AND they are light enough that they track VERY well. Huge bargains, if you can find an unmolested example.

(Nows the time in the Northern states if you can find a clean one being sold by a guy who "HAS" to sell now.)

[JeffYoung]

I agree, the mechanicals on all late model BMWs, good stuff.

I just prefer the non-Bangle style from pre-2000. I don't much like the way the new 5s and 7s look, although they apparently drive great. The 3s, I still like a lot.

Just seems to me that the E36 M3 and 540i were two of the most perfect designs we've seen in a long time. Practical. Fast. Fun. Reliable. Relatively inexpensive (like you said, look good when you don't have $$!)......

[Tom Donnelly]

Wow,

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I did feel like I'm moving to the dark side Keith, but not so much anymore. The E36's seem abundant right now. It seems there a alot of convertible M3's down here, more than hardtops. I do like the E46 bodystyle a little better.
And, even though its not the best way to think, you can't turn the M3 into an IT car later. :D
You never know when 240z's will get way too rare to race in IT and it needs to get turned over to a collector! Maybe Jay Leno will pay $100,000 for my car and I'll run a E46.

Do the E46's have the same rear sub frame issues? And the E46's are drive by wire throttles, aren't they? Is it the same transmission? Do the plastic door handles break as easily as the old pot-metal ones?

And I like the Porsche 1973 RSR IROC. I want one of those.

Tom

[Tom Donnelly]

Jeff,

Non-bangle, that's great. The latest BMW's look like Acura's or Toyotas or something.

Tom

[lateapex911]

And I like the Porsche 1973 RSR IROC. I want one of those.

Tom

Huzza, who doesn't?? You know how many E36 M3 cabs you can buy for ONE of those?

(Hint, 73 RSR IROC pricing is expressed in "points", like "1 point 1 million", or "point nine", LOL

One thing to consider on the cab issue is body flex. My 2003 M# with 26K miles has what I consider minor, but noticeable flex. I imagine that as miles go up, or the car is driven over less than smooth roads, or tires or suspension components are changed, that flex will increase. I'd be sure to test drive a few, before committing dollars. (which makes it hard to buy over ebay)

[JLawton]

Wow,

And, even though its not the best way to think, you can't turn the M3 into an IT car later. :D

Tom

LOL, that's the first thing I asked my buddy after we got finished test driving mine, "These aren't IT legal, are they??" Cause I KNOW what I would be doing with it after a year on the street!! :)

[lateapex911]

Wow,

T
And, even though its not the best way to think, you can't turn the M3 into an IT car later. :D



Tom

Remember, there are no guarantees in life....

[Tom Donnelly]

I've been looking at Turner motorsports' and Korman's sites. Lots of interesting informantion. Did y'all check the rear subframe before buying your street cars? And is the fix that Turner offers IT legal? It looks like a "repair" but maybe more so. Welding up the control arms is probably not legal either.

Not much out there as far as hopping up an E-46 except for WC. Korman's IT suspension kit looks pretty complete. Are there IT cars running motons? Just curious, I can't help it! I look at stuff in terms of "how much is this in tire money?" and "would this make a decent race car?". I haven't even been looking at 2-doors or convertables 'cause a four door is stiffer. All that in deciding on a 3 mile commute.

I like the older 5 series too, they had some really classy lines.

[dj10]

I've been looking at Turner motorsports' and Korman's sites. Lots of interesting informantion. Did y'all check the rear subframe before buying your street cars? And is the fix that Turner offers IT legal? It looks like a "repair" but maybe more so. Welding up the control arms is probably not legal either.

Not much out there as far as hopping up an E-46 except for WC. Korman's IT suspension kit looks pretty complete. Are there IT cars running motons? Just curious, I can't help it! I look at stuff in terms of "how much is this in tire money?" and "would this make a decent race car?". I haven't even been looking at 2-doors or convertables 'cause a four door is stiffer. All that in deciding on a 3 mile commute.

I like the older 5 series too, they had some really classy lines.

The sub frames failed when people flogged the hell out of their cars (e36) with soft suspension settings for a long time. If the car has been tracked at all have someone knowledgeable check the subframe out. If you rapair the control arms & subframe then it's legal. ;~)

The best way to hop up a E46 is to get a set of lightweight wheels! My M3 wheels must weight 30#'s each, I can get 18" wheels reasonable for around 300 and I'll bet I will notice a big difference if I'm able to save 10#'s per wheel. Not only that but removing the stagger, now I'm able to rotate the tires. Trust me, you won't notice any difference between the 2 door and 4 door. Don't let that hinder your decision.

[robits325is]

I've been looking at Turner motorsports' and Korman's sites. Lots of interesting informantion. Did y'all check the rear subframe before buying your street cars? And is the fix that Turner offers IT legal? It looks like a "repair" but maybe more so. Welding up the control arms is probably not legal either.

Not much out there as far as hopping up an E-46 except for WC. Korman's IT suspension kit looks pretty complete. Are there IT cars running motons? Just curious, I can't help it! I look at stuff in terms of "how much is this in tire money?" and "would this make a decent race car?". I haven't even been looking at 2-doors or convertables 'cause a four door is stiffer. All that in deciding on a 3 mile commute.

I like the older 5 series too, they had some really classy lines.

I have JRZs in my ITS car - the chassis is unbelievable and the car is very competitive. I wish it was a little lighter but otherwise the E-46 makes an excellent race car.

[dj10]

I have JRZs in my ITS car - the chassis is unbelievable and the car is very competitive. I wish it was a little lighter but otherwise the E-46 makes an excellent race car.

Hmmmmm JRZ's, they make good candy over there.:D I just got word that my suspension will be in from AG shortly. They do make good beer too.:birra:

[Tom Donnelly]

Good donor car in Pittsburgh...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267693

Rob,
Are you running an E46? What did you do with the throttle body? Still by wire? Using motec to turn it into an on/off switch?

Keith,
Thanks, e46fanatics is a great site. Haven't been to bimmerforums yet.


Tom

[dj10]

Good donor car in Pittsburgh...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267693

Rob,
Are you running an E46? What did you do with the throttle body? Still by wire? Using motec to turn it into an on/off switch?

Keith,
Thanks, e46fanatics is a great site. Haven't been to bimmerforums yet.


Tom

Is this going to be your street car or a race car?

[Tom Donnelly]

Dan,

Looking for a street car. I end up daydreaming about turning just about anything into a race car.
And I still think an E36 / E46 makes for a good race car. So I got a little sidetracked. Who knows,
maybe I'll run a BMW someday. I saw you were in PA and when I came across that car, it looked
like a good backup / donor.

Tom

[mlytle]

Very anal BMWCCA guys are fairly easy to find!



hey! i resemble that remark!

97 m3/4 - owned since new. 62k miles, never seen snow, rain, dirt, etc..:cool:

of course, then there is the other car..

93 325is ITR race car. 180k miles, seen it all and has the bruises to prove it!:D

marshall

[dj10]

Dan,

Looking for a street car. I end up daydreaming about turning just about anything into a race car.
And I still think an E36 / E46 makes for a good race car. So I got a little sidetracked. Who knows,
maybe I'll run a BMW someday. I saw you were in PA and when I came across that car, it looked
like a good backup / donor.

Tom

If your looking for a street car that's one thing but if your going to plan to race it, I would buy a race ready ironed out E36 or E46. Trust me it's costs way to much money to build one from the ground up. BTW you can get an engine from 600 - 900 and a transmission around 600. That car in Pgh might be a deal if you have the time and money to put it back together.

[robits325is]

Good donor car in Pittsburgh...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267693

Rob,
Are you running an E46? What did you do with the throttle body? Still by wire? Using motec to turn it into an on/off switch?

Keith,
Thanks, e46fanatics is a great site. Haven't been to bimmerforums yet.


Tom

I have a 99 323i E-46. I built the cars (2) in 2005. The throttle is cable operated just like the E-36. The ASC portion of the throttle is electronic and unused by the Motec.

[Z3_GoCar]

I'm not sure about the e-46 M3's, but of the regular sedans and coupes only the M54b30 (3.0l) has the electronic throttle. It's actually in the specs for either Koni or World Challenge Street Tuner class that the electronic throttle must be replaced with the cable unit from the 325. If I were to build anything with the M-54b30 motor I'd ask for a spec line allowance for preciesly this mod, because this is defacto traction control and as we all know traction control isn't allowed in IT. Both would be solid daily drivers, but if you're going to slowly turn it into a racer, the e-36 328 would save enough to purchase the cage and most if not all of the suspension.

My Wife has an '02 330i sedan, which has been solid so far. The only problem we've had was the flasher bulb can't be the cheap brass based ones as the manufacturing tolerance isn't tight enough to hold the bulb in contact and will stop working.

James

[JoshS]

E46 M3s have the fully electronic throttle too.

(I sold my '99 M Coupe in '02 for a new E46 M3 that I still have.)

[lateapex911]

E46 M3s have the fully electronic throttle too.

(I sold my '99 M Coupe in '02 for a new E46 M3 that I still have.)

In the M3 it's easy to tell, if you cruise along, then press the "sport" button on the dash. The car will leap ahead, as the "sport" button alters the gas pedal to throttle relationship. (Among other things, presumably...I haven't gotten an owners manual yet, LOL)

[JoshS]

That's all it does. The Sport button does more things in other BMWs, like alter the steering effort or (automatic) transmission behavior. But in the E46 M3, it's just the pedal-to-throttle map. I personally never use Sport mode, it's too jumpy for me around town, but nice on the freeway. Supposedly the Conforti software makes it "just right."

[JeffYoung]

Not so sure that welding/strengthening subframes is legal for IT on an E36 325/328........

[dj10]

Not so sure that welding/strengthening subframes is legal for IT on an E36 325/328........

But repairing subframes, etc. are legal.:)

[JeffYoung]

Agree. Repairing it back to stock, legal. Strengthening it, not legal.

[dj10]

Agree. Repairing it back to stock, legal. Strengthening it, not legal.

Jeff, you can't repair something back to stock, It is impossible. As soon as you weld a spot you are strengthing it and it now becomes a non stock item. It would be also not the recommended repair from the manufacturer, if we are talking BMW's look in any of the repair manuals. There has to be an allowance to repair, say the control arms or body suspension points with out having to replace them new? Or are you saying if the body cracks from stress you have to replace it?

[JeffYoung]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.

[dj10]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.

My 1st ARRC in 2005 I missed a shift (totally my fault, got inpatient) and blew the engine, but upon the year end inspection we noticed that the left rear shock was ready to punch through the fender mount! If I would have blown the engine in the 6th or 7th lap who knows what would have happened. BMW makes a repair plate for this. So as of today, I have not made any other mods to the car, only the 1 repair. I agree that you only make the repairs and not do the strengthing before the repair is needed.IMO

[Tom Donnelly]

Build vs Buy. Buy is better every time, I agree. And I already have one race car. But I can dream anyway. Build one car while running another? Doubt that too, it's hard to serve two masters!

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. When I pick up a car I'll post what I got.

M3 vs 325 vs 330 vs 328 vs 323. Its a tough job but somebody's got to do it. I've ruled
out the '62 Ferarri GTO, the '73 Porsche 911 RSR IROC, the '67 Cobra 427 side oiler and the '72 MGB so that narrows it down quite a bit...

Oh, I forgot about the '70 convertible hemi 'Cuda and the '70 302 Boss Trans-Am Mustang and the '69 302 Trans-Am Camaro and the UOP Shadow and the 917K and the.....

Tom

How come the 323 (E46) is listed for ITS but not ITR? And why 3000 lbs but no SIR?

[robits325is]

How come the 323 (E46) is listed for ITS but not ITR? And why 3000 lbs but no SIR?

The E-46 is in one class like every other IT car except the evil E-36.
Same brakes, same transmission, 19 less stock hp. 3,000lbs based on certain adders this particular car gets. What those adders are remain somewhat of a mystery to me. My opinion is the E-46 should be 2,900 in ITS

[JLawton]

I won't lie, this issue has come up before. It's a problem. There are safety issues for you guys, but at the same time, arguments are being made that a known weak point can either be corrected prior to failure or strengthened after failure "cause the manual says so."

I have brake caliper seal failures. Should I be allowed to correct that with non sock parts?

In my view, you are of course allowed to fix, but the fix can ONLY be enough to repair the issue and no more. I've seen websites were far more than that was done to an IT car, and I didn't like the looks of it.

But it is a difficult issue, I know.


There was a long discussion about this very issue maybe three years ago. And it is tricky because it can be a safety issue no doubt. BUT, the repair needs to be made based on the factory manual. And if I recall (granted, it was three years ago so I'm a little fuzzy) the factory manual didn't mention reinforement of the area and anything more than welding the crack was deemed illegal.

There's tons of examples like this: Such as the 944 control arms and GTi front bearings. And reliability/PM is part of being fast. Every car has its weeknesses. We need to know what they are and keep an eye on them, not just go ahead and make an illegal fix in the name of safety......




.

[dj10]

There was a long discussion about this very issue maybe three years ago. And it is tricky because it can be a safety issue no doubt. BUT, the repair needs to be made based on the factory manual. And if I recall (granted, it was three years ago so I'm a little fuzzy) the factory manual didn't mention reinforement of the area and anything more than welding the crack was deemed illegal.

There's tons of examples like this: Such as the 944 control arms and GTi front bearings. And reliability/PM is part of being fast. Every car has its weeknesses. We need to know what they are and keep an eye on them, not just go ahead and make an illegal fix in the name of safety......
.

Control arms & wheel bearings can be replaced. How do you replace a body of a car? How do you repair a body of a car? BMW specifically made the body replacement plates for these repairs and they have BMW part numbers. If your control arm cracks and it is aluminum, go ahead and repair it, if you dare. Anyone who has welded knows that the welds are suppose to be stronger than the parant metal. Fabcar control arms not a factory replacement part or repair.

[JeffYoung]

Dan, I think we are on the same page. Obviously, if the subframe mounts pull loose an E36, you fix them by welding in a replacement metal plate. That is in my mind legal. Two things are not:

1. Performing the repair prior to a failure.

2. Doing anything other than what is minimally necessary to fix the issue.

But again, I think that is what you said and I believe that both Jeff L. and I would agree that is legal.

[Tom Donnelly]

Hey,
One last question, what wheels have you BMW guys been running? What size / offset / width etc?
I was looking at tire rack and noticed Kosei K1 are fairly inexpensive and 15lbs. BBS are expensive and 20lbs. What's on your street cars? Looking at the bimmer forums there's alot of wheels trading around. The Kosei's cost almost half what my panasports cost.
Tom

[mlytle]

the two street bmw's have bmw m-contours. the race bmw has multiple sets of kosei's and team dynamics. both are light, inexpensive and have so far been strong.

[mlytle]

Dan, I think we are on the same page. Obviously, if the subframe mounts pull loose an E36, you fix them by welding in a replacement metal plate. That is in my mind legal. Two things are not:

1. Performing the repair prior to a failure.

2. Doing anything other than what is minimally necessary to fix the issue.

But again, I think that is what you said and I believe that both Jeff L. and I would agree that is legal.

why wait until failure? and how is failure defined? is it when the mount rips our in a high speed corner and causes a crash? is it when you think you might be able to see something that might be a crack? and how do you tell after the repair has been done whether or not there was a prior failure?

bottom line, nobody wants to wait until ultimate failure...dangerous and 10x more difficult to fix. if the repair is a standard factory procedure and uses standard factory parts i don't see a problem with doing it prior to catastrophic incident. non standard "creative' preventative repairs...no way. standard factory fixes for known issues..go for it.

[JLawton]

why wait until failure? and how is failure defined? is it when the mount rips our in a high speed corner and causes a crash? is it when you think you might be able to see something that might be a crack? and how do you tell after the repair has been done whether or not there was a prior failure?

bottom line, nobody wants to wait until ultimate failure...dangerous and 10x more difficult to fix. if the repair is a standard factory procedure and uses standard factory parts i don't see a problem with doing it prior to catastrophic incident. non standard "creative' preventative repairs...no way. standard factory fixes for known issues..go for it.


There's "by the book" and maybe a little reality. By the book, this is clearly illegal. See my example of 944 control arms. Is it OK for them to swap in beefier arms so they don't have the high speed failure?? And again, if I remember the discussion from years ago, there was no mention of reinforcement to fix a crack. The ONLY mention was welding AFTER there is a crack. It doesn't matter what they may or may not do in the shop, it goes by what the manual says.

Would i protest someone who did this?? No. But don't try to justify it being legal due to the "safety" card. Trying to justify it as legal always makes me think, "what other "justifications" are going on with the car..........."

[JeffYoung]

Jeff L. is right. "Fixing" it in a way that reinforces it prior to failure is illegal Marshall, pure and simple. I understand your point, but we all face these types of weaknesses on our cars - things that are going to fail - and we all have to deal with them.

And failure is easy enough to define isn't it? You start to see cracking in the subrame mounts and then do your factory repair (and thank your lucky stars that your manufacturer has a factory procedure for it because almost all other manufacturers do not). But that is it, and no more.

[dj10]

Jeff L. is right. "Fixing" it in a way that reinforces it prior to failure is illegal Marshall, pure and simple. I understand your point, but we all face these types of weaknesses on our cars - things that are going to fail - and we all have to deal with them.

And failure is easy enough to define isn't it? You start to see cracking in the subrame mounts and then do your factory repair (and thank your lucky stars that your manufacturer has a factory procedure for it because almost all other manufacturers do not). But that is it, and no more.

I'm from the old school, if it's not broke don't fix it. The bodies of cars are not like control arms, cheap and easily replaced. If no one will protest reinforcing the body, which came 1st the chicken or the egg, why make it illegal?:shrug: The repairs will not make the car any faster.

[JeffYoung]

The car will be stiffer, and it will be more reliable. While not immediately faster, there is a performance advantage.

Guys, this is a frustrating one for me. It's really no different than if I played the "safety" card and said my brakes are inadequate to justify using an illegal fix.

It is NOT legal to fix this before there is a problem in the manner describedand honestly, just from an attitude correction perspective, I might protest it. The attitude here that it is legal is bothersome.

[dj10]

The car will be stiffer, and it will be more reliable. While not immediately faster, there is a performance advantage.

Guys, this is a frustrating one for me. It's really no different than if I played the "safety" card and said my brakes are inadequate to justify using an illegal fix.

It is NOT legal to fix this before there is a problem in the manner describedand honestly, just from an attitude correction perspective, I might protest it. The attitude here that it is legal is bothersome.

Jeff, I'm not arguing with you :D, I'm making conversation and trying to tell you this a feutile rule to protest on. I think it would be impossible to prove unless you cut the guys car apart and then I doubt it would be conclusive. If you have brake issues with a seal that goes bad, how am I going to prove that you are using a different brake piston seal? I bet the illegal part is identical to the oem part, or at least they are both black. :) I would never protest you even if I knew you were using a better seal. Now if you decide to use bigger and better 4 piston calipers, this is a different story. Yes we are lucky that BMW has a fix for our problem, it would have saved everyone a headache or two if they would have reinforced these points from the factory.:cool: Like everything else hind sight is 20/20.

[mlytle]

There's "by the book" and maybe a little reality. By the book, this is clearly illegal. See my example of 944 control arms. Is it OK for them to swap in beefier arms so they don't have the high speed failure?? And again, if I remember the discussion from years ago, there was no mention of reinforcement to fix a crack. The ONLY mention was welding AFTER there is a crack. It doesn't matter what they may or may not do in the shop, it goes by what the manual says.

Would i protest someone who did this?? No. But don't try to justify it being legal due to the "safety" card. Trying to justify it as legal always makes me think, "what other "justifications" are going on with the car..........."


i think there is a difference in your example and this one. is the 944 beefier control arm a legal factory part for the 944? if it is, then what is the problem with putting them in? if not, then hell yeah it is illegal. on the bmw the part is a factory part, with a factory procedure, specifically for a car that is on a spec line in the itcs. factory, factory, factory. nothing non-standard. not clearly illegal. and it does not make the car any stiffer...unless the mount has already ripped out.

for the bmw's at least..this issue goes away if vins are ditched. the e36 m3 shell has the plates from the factory and is otherwise identical to a 325 shell.....

[JeffYoung]

It's factory, factory, factory ONCE THE FAILURE OCCURS. BMW did not do this proactively correct? NOT LEGAL TO DO IT UNTIL THE FAILURE OCCURS.

The E36 M3 example is wrong. Yes, you can use the E36 M3 shell, but you would have to remove anything that did not come on the model that you are "making."

[Tom Donnelly]

Here's my take on this. Based upon my research, I bet if you looked for stress cracks or signs of stress on any used 3-series you'd find it. We are alowed to magnaflux stuff and replace based upon signs of impending fatigue. How is a car body any different? It doesn't have to be catastophic failure, just failure, right?

Tom

mlytle, thanks for the info about the Kosei's. Tire rack had them for $99.00 each.
What are m-contours? The M3 wheels?

[lateapex911]

Here's my take on this. Based upon my research, I bet if you looked for stress cracks or signs of stress on any used 3-series you'd find it. We are alowed to magnaflux stuff and replace based upon signs of impending fatigue. How is a car body any different? It doesn't have to be catastophic failure, just failure, right?

Tom



Right....but there is a time when it's NOT right, and a time when it IS right. Careful and repeated inspections will determine when that is.

[JeffYoung]

When it is not the right time:

a. Gee, I'm building a race car. I hear the subframe can fail. I should weld it up!

When it is the right time:

b. Ok, I've got cracks in my subframe. What do I do about that?

[gpeluso]

The E36 keeps making new friends everyday.............. hey I have one forsale!!!!!

[dj10]

The E36 keeps making new friends everyday.............. hey I have one forsale!!!!!
You got yours from autotech didn't you? Does yours have the subframe reinforcements?:p

[mlytle]

Tom

mlytle, thanks for the info about the Kosei's. Tire rack had them for $99.00 each.
What are m-contours? The M3 wheels?

what size did you get for $99?

m-coutours are the lux package wheels from the e36 m3. i have 4 17x8.5's on my m3 and 4 17x7.5s on wifes e46 325it.

[mlytle]

The E36 keeps making new friends everyday.............. hey I have one forsale!!!!!

i tried to sell it for ya!:)

[JLawton]

i think there is a difference in your example and this one. is the 944 beefier control arm a legal factory part for the 944? if it is, then what is the problem with putting them in? if not, then hell yeah it is illegal. on the bmw the part is a factory part, with a factory procedure, specifically for a car that is on a spec line in the itcs. factory, factory, factory. nothing non-standard. not clearly illegal. and it does not make the car any stiffer...unless the mount has already ripped out.



What I am saying is that if it doesn't state the repair in the factory manual, you can't do it. Doesn't matter if there are factory parts. Hell, BMW makes a replacement cup holder to replace the "factory" cup ejector in my M3. Doens't mean that it's OK to swap out any parts because it came from the "factory". I know, stupid example, but I'm trying to make a point.

Plus, if a little reinforcement is OK, is a little more OK? how about a lot more?? Where does it end? And yes, eventually it will add performance. Hell, I wish I could reinforce my rear shock mounts.

You seriously can't beleive that it is legal to proactivly reinforce these area? Show me the manual. If you can't show me where it says it, it's not legal.

Again, I don't give a shit if you do it our not. What disturbes me the most is trying to justify an illegal modification.
My suggestion?? Do it and shut up about it!! :p

[gpeluso]

Dan,
I tossed and turned all night thinking you might have an illegal modification....................the Mid ohio track record still stands, right???

Greg

[dj10]

Dan,
I tossed and turned all night thinking you might have an illegal modification....................the Mid ohio track record still stands, right???

Greg

Illegal modification, like your short shifter?78 Oh yea, windshiel washer bottle:p

[gpeluso]

I didn't race this car in SCCA last year................I didn't put the shifter on the car but if you would like to buy it I can... just for you get a stock one!!!! Here I am am worried about you and you try to beat me up. It is funny the love the E36 brings out.

[JeffYoung]

With attitudes like the above regarding the rules, and the whole 189 stock hp at 2850 debacle, it's not surprising.

[dj10]

I didn't race this car in SCCA last year................I didn't put the shifter on the car but if you would like to buy it I can... just for you get a stock one!!!! Here I am am worried about you and you try to beat me up. It is funny the love the E36 brings out.

Ahhhhhhh how sweet. Now I won't be able to sleep for days!;)
HUGS 79

[mlytle]

What I am saying is that if it doesn't state the repair in the factory manual, you can't do it. Doesn't matter if there are factory parts. Hell, BMW makes a replacement cup holder to replace the "factory" cup ejector in my M3. Doens't mean that it's OK to swap out any parts because it came from the "factory". I know, stupid example, but I'm trying to make a point.

Plus, if a little reinforcement is OK, is a little more OK? how about a lot more?? Where does it end? And yes, eventually it will add performance. Hell, I wish I could reinforce my rear shock mounts.

You seriously can't beleive that it is legal to proactivly reinforce these area? Show me the manual. If you can't show me where it says it, it's not legal.

Again, I don't give a shit if you do it our not. What disturbes me the most is trying to justify an illegal modification.
My suggestion?? Do it and shut up about it!! :p

seriously, just a question here...have any of you non-bmw types actually seen the area of the car we are talking about, seen a damaged mount, seen the plates and seen what the correct repair looks like?

y'all make it sound like it is some huge reinforcement that takes seconds off the lap time. it ain't.
i can about guaranttee that any non-m e36 that has not had this done, needs the area repaired. after 15years and 150k plus miles of street use, the mounting bolts will have flex in them, so the area needs to be REPAIRED, with the factory procedure. no extra welding allowed, no extra non-approved metal, no making it better than it should be. a little more is not ok. it is easy to see where it ends. it is great that bmw has a standard repair fix for the problem that prevents any creative "reinforcement" efforts that would occur if people could do the repair free-form.

and i wish i could reinforce my rear shock mounts too. and i wish i didn't have to waste a lot of labor and $$$ repairing my @#$%^ diff carrier (subframe) mounts.

i'll stop. this was a dead horse several years ago. sorry i kicked it some more....:dead_horse:

[mlytle]

one more..
reading this thread it is readily apparent to me the we need to GO RACING! too much time for typing...we need to be driving!:eclipsee_steering:
:D

[dj10]

seriously, just a question here...have any of you non-bmw types actually seen the area of the car we are talking about, seen a damaged mount, seen the plates and seen what the correct repair looks like?

y'all make it sound like it is some huge reinforcement that takes seconds off the lap time. it ain't.
i can about guaranttee that any non-m e36 that has not had this done, needs the area repaired. after 15years and 150k plus miles of street use, the mounting bolts will have flex in them, so the area needs to be REPAIRED, with the factory procedure. no extra welding allowed, no extra non-approved metal, no making it better than it should be. a little more is not ok. it is easy to see where it ends. it is great that bmw has a standard repair fix for the problem that prevents any creative "reinforcement" efforts that would occur if people could do the repair free-form.

and i wish i could reinforce my rear shock mounts too. and i wish i didn't have to waste a lot of labor and $$$ repairing my @#$%^ diff carrier (subframe) mounts.

i'll stop. this was a dead horse several years ago. sorry i kicked it some more....:dead_horse:
So far, mine hasn't with the exception of the left rear top shock mount. Knock on wood.:D I feel sorry for the horse.:(

[JLawton]

i'll stop. this was a dead horse several years ago. sorry i kicked it some more....:dead_horse:


one more..
reading this thread it is readily apparent to me the we need to GO RACING! too much time for typing...we need to be driving!:eclipsee_steering:
:D


I'm with you guys!! :023:

[Z3_GoCar]

What I am saying is that if it doesn't state the repair in the factory manual....

Hold it right there. This is presuming the existance of such a manual. For all I know of BMW and such repairs, it goes like this, mechanic calls the service manager, the service manager calls the regional manager calls who ever is above him, untill some one who's either seen it before or a team of engineers who ever is lower develops a method of repair, and then the information filters down. The non-existance of said repair manual leads to deniability that there is even a problem. Some times the service manager will deny there's even a problem, they say, "It's crash damage... You took the car on the track" or any other excuse to make the owner pay for the repair. So if said manual doesn't exist, then what options exist?? Examine how the repairs have been performed?? What if some of the less obstinate dealers installed a kit from Dinan?

:bash_1_::cavallo::dead_horse:

[JeffYoung]

Yes, I've seen the area of the car we are talking about.

Yes, it is a problem from a legality standpoint if you are fixing something with a strengthening/weld repair prior to failure.

Not a dead horse because I've seen this "repair" performed proactively on at least one website and the issue continues to come up.

It's the attitude that's the problem Marshall, although your post below is I believe the correct approach. Fix it once broken, according to the factory procedure. That is all I am saying.


seriously, just a question here...have any of you non-bmw types actually seen the area of the car we are talking about, seen a damaged mount, seen the plates and seen what the correct repair looks like?

y'all make it sound like it is some huge reinforcement that takes seconds off the lap time. it ain't.
i can about guaranttee that any non-m e36 that has not had this done, needs the area repaired. after 15years and 150k plus miles of street use, the mounting bolts will have flex in them, so the area needs to be REPAIRED, with the factory procedure. no extra welding allowed, no extra non-approved metal, no making it better than it should be. a little more is not ok. it is easy to see where it ends. it is great that bmw has a standard repair fix for the problem that prevents any creative "reinforcement" efforts that would occur if people could do the repair free-form.

and i wish i could reinforce my rear shock mounts too. and i wish i didn't have to waste a lot of labor and $$$ repairing my @#$%^ diff carrier (subframe) mounts.

i'll stop. this was a dead horse several years ago. sorry i kicked it some more....:dead_horse:

[Tom Donnelly]

what size did you get for $99?

m-coutours are the lux package wheels from the e36 m3. i have 4 17x8.5's on my m3 and 4 17x7.5s on wifes e46 325it.

They were 16's and on closeout. The 17's are $165 and I don't see the 16's anymore.

Tom

[Tom Donnelly]

When it is not the right time:

a. Gee, I'm building a race car. I hear the subframe can fail. I should weld it up!

When it is the right time:

b. Ok, I've got cracks in my subframe. What do I do about that?


Jeff,
I agree completely.
After looking at quite a few recently, they all were cracked and some repaired (badly).
One had putty shoved in the cracks.
Tom

[Greg Amy]

Aaahhhh, life. What's old is new again...read 'em and weep...

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12163

[JeffYoung]

Durn, totally forgot about that one. Wow. Now those were some repairs right there.

[dj10]

Durn, totally forgot about that one. Wow. Now those were some repairs right there.

REPAIRS OR REINFORCEMENTS???:D

[JeffYoung]

Appears to be a fine line don't ya think?

I agree guys, a straight up repair after a failure, I'm fine with.

[Greg Amy]

Appears to be a fine line don't ya think?
No, I really don't see a fine line there at all. Rules say repairs have to be exactly as it was before, unless you can produce the paperwork from the factory (e.g., TSB) supporting it.

It's really not that fine a line at all; suggesting otherwise is condoning that whole "twisted interpretation" mindset.


I agree guys, a straight up repair after a failure, I'm fine with.
Another checkbox for condoning the mindset. If you accept that this kind of "repair" is legal after a failure, illustrate to me how you're going to be able to prove there was a failure in the first place...?

Nope, not a fine line at all. - GA

[JeffYoung]

I read that whole tread again last night. I wasn't happy about it this stuff then, and not happy about it now, but it does appear there is a factory mandated repair that involves the welding of plates on the cracked areas. I am still concerned, as are you apparently, about a factory fix that improves performance/reliability although I am not sure that is illegal.

But I see their point. If there is a failure, you have to fix it. Welding is an acceptable means by which we all fix stress cracks.

So, if the minimum amount of factory approved welding is done to a fix, I don't see how that is not legal.

Thus it is a fine line between repair and reinforce. You can only do enough to fix, or what the factory TSB says you can do, and no more. Some of that stuff on the Autotechnic page was so far out of line as to not even be within the realm of discussion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think what people are looking for is a copy of the official documentation from BMW that shows all the details on what to look for, what part numbers are required and how to fix the flaw. A true TSB with 'repair' terminology.

What some have become leary of is a proactive 'reinforcement'. Just because a BMW part number exists, doesn't mean it's a factory mandated repair. I think in general terms, we can all agree on that.

Knowing some of the guys who have done this, I am sure the documentation exists, but it would be nice to see it. This is something that could become specifically LEGAL on the spec line if someone was motivated with the proper docs.

[JeffYoung]

Agreed. Agreed (message too short?)

[dj10]

I think what people are looking for is a copy of the official documentation from BMW that shows all the details on what to look for, what part numbers are required and how to fix the flaw. A true TSB with 'repair' terminology.

What some have become leary of is a proactive 'reinforcement'. Just because a BMW part number exists, doesn't mean it's a factory mandated repair. I think in general terms, we can all agree on that.

Knowing some of the guys who have done this, I am sure the documentation exists, but it would be nice to see it. This is something that could become specifically LEGAL on the spec line if someone was motivated with the proper docs.

From what I can read with GA's post, he wants to know if it was a true repair. If Greg did any welding to the body or subframe of his car, how would anyone know if it was a repair or a reinforcement? I use this only as an example. I'll bet that Marshall Lytle probably has the BMW part numbers for the reinforcement plates. As for the BMW documation of the repair, I'll look in the TIS for starts. Back to the proof, how can anyone prove anything unless no repairs are made without the expressed approval of the SCCA tech? You couldn't use photos because it could be someone elses car in the photo.

[JeffYoung]

Dan, I agree with you on that part. Taht is where we just have to trust people not to cheat, like we do with lots of other stuff on our cars.

[JoshS]

I'll bet that Marshall Lytle probably has the BMW part numbers for the reinforcement plates. As for the BMW documation of the repair, I'll look in the TIS for starts.
From the other thread, the part numbers are:

41-00-2-256-495
41-00-2-256-496
41-11-2-256-497
41-11-2-256-498

I looked these up in the ETK (okay, the online one, realoem), and they are listed only for the M3s (coupes, sedans, and convertibles), but not for any other E36s.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a service bulletin in the TIS though that recommends their use on a 325. I don't have the TIS handy, not since I switched computers, but I'd love for you to look it up.

Interestingly, the Z3s have a totally different rear suspension issue that still results in unibody tearing, but not at the subframe mounts. Although there are a few reinforcement kits available in the aftermarket, BMW has never issued any fix of any sort for it, or even acknowledged that the problem exists. So, I'm just waiting for it to happen, and when it does, I'll have to replace the whole trunk floor with new parts. Kinda sucks.

[dj10]

From the other thread, the part numbers are:

41-00-2-256-495
41-00-2-256-496
41-11-2-256-497
41-11-2-256-498

I looked these up in the ETK (okay, the online one, realoem), and they are listed only for the M3s (coupes, sedans, and convertibles), but not for any other E36s.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a service bulletin in the TIS though that recommends their use on a 325. I don't have the TIS handy, not since I switched computers, but I'd love for you to look it up.

Interestingly, the Z3s have a totally different rear suspension issue that still results in unibody tearing, but not at the subframe mounts. Although there are a few reinforcement kits available in the aftermarket, BMW has never issued any fix of any sort for it, or even acknowledged that the problem exists. So, I'm just waiting for it to happen, and when it does, I'll have to replace the whole trunk floor with new parts. Kinda sucks.

Thanks Josh.

[robits325is]

BMW TIS 41 03 03 (025) Very well documented within BMW but nearly impossible to find outside the BMW network.

BMW Documentation (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l258/omarsbucket/TIS410303025Pg1.jpg)

[JoshS]

BMW TIS 41 03 03 (025) Very well documented within BMW but nearly impossible to find outside the BMW network.

BMW Documentation (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l258/omarsbucket/TIS410303025Pg1.jpg)
I don't get it.

1)That's a bulletin for an E46, not an E36.
2) It doesn't say to weld on a reinforcing plate from an M3.

[robits325is]

I have an E-46 and that document was the first one I choose. That document is 9 pages and lists every item to use including a part number for rubber gloves to use while applying the finish undercoating. This repair is very common.

[lateapex911]

But Rob, unless I'm mistaken we're discussing the E36, and the mystery factory repair. I think Autotecnic showed pictures of it on their site. So do you have that bulletin?

[Greg Amy]

From what I can read with GA's post, he wants to know if it was a true repair.
Just to follow up, Dan: yes. This has (obviously) been debated for years, and I've yet to see anyone come up with factory documentation specifically proving that BMW considers this to be a normal, every repair procedure on a non-M3 E36 chassis.

No one disagrees it's a wart on the car.

No one disagrees it's a good idea.

No one disagrees it fixes problems on the car.

No one disagrees it's a "performance advantage" in that it fixes a common flaw on the car.

However, no one's bothered to provide the proof that it's legal in Improved Touring. To do so would require the aforementioned factory-authorized documentation. Provide proof, we mumble "mea culpa" and shut up...

Ball's been in the BMW court for several years now... - GA

[JoshS]

I have an E-46 and that document was the first one I choose. That document is 9 pages and lists every item to use including a part number for rubber gloves to use while applying the finish undercoating. This repair is very common.
I see, I didn't understand that this was just the 1st page.

Here's the whole thing for anyone who wants to look:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=247442&d=1193718036
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5927869&postcount=23

But ...

This thread was about E36s, and the part numbers that are being used are different. I frankly think that this document allows for E46s to do this sort of reinforcement. But I see no allowance for it to be done to an E36, even after a failure.

[robits325is]

BMW is VERY tight with this information.(E-36 and E-46) I was lucky enough to work within the BMW group for four years. A simple google search on BMW subframe class action suits will show a lot of information available through various law firms and customers alike. These TIS documents are not public information nor are they intended to be linked here. BMW has a team of attorneys that have been known for making mountains out of mole hills over much simpler issues such as BMW logos used without proper approvals. Needless to say I have access to this information but I can't afford the legal bills if it were to escalate to BMW corporate.

I have not needed to fix my E-46 yet but if I do I will unless someone here has a better solution other than order a body in white.

Can anyone offer a better way to fix a torn subframe or a ripped out shock mount?

Nobody else has had to weld something on their car? I can"t remember a weekend that Smarty wasnt under someones car welding for a case of Pabst.

[JoshS]

I have not needed to fix my E-46 yet but if I do I will unless someone here has a better solution other than order a body in white.

Can anyone offer a better way to fix a torn subframe or a ripped out shock mount?

I think no one here would have an issue with you following these instructions for your E46. The rulebook says:

"All chassis/structural/electrical repair, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory procedures, specifications, and dimensions. Unless specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair or allowed by these rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding, material addition, etc., is permitted."

Such a procedure, on your car, would be in concurrence with factory procedures, and would be specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair. As long as your car was built before 2/00, I guess, since that's the limit of applicability of this bulletin.

But doing a similar thing on an E36, or reinforcing the trunk floor of a Z3 because they tear apart at the diff mount, wouldn't be legal without such a document.

BMW might not want these documents to circulate to the owner population, but as you know, most racers don't have "legitimate access" to them, and yet, the racing rules require us to have them in our possession. So, we're good at looking for them.

[Z3_GoCar]

I think no one here would have an issue with you following these instructions for your E46. The rulebook says:

"All chassis/structural/electrical repair, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory procedures, specifications, and dimensions. Unless specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair or allowed by these rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding, material addition, etc., is permitted."

Such a procedure, on your car, would be in concurrence with factory procedures, and would be specifically authorized by the manufacturer for repair. As long as your car was built before 2/00, I guess, since that's the limit of applicability of this bulletin.

But doing a similar thing on an E36, or reinforcing the trunk floor of a Z3 because they tear apart at the diff mount, wouldn't be legal without such a document.

BMW might not want these documents to circulate to the owner population, but as you know, most racers don't have "legitimate access" to them, and yet, the racing rules require us to have them in our possession. So, we're good at looking for them.

Josh, you've followed the Z3 trunk mount repair threads. Have you ever found any evidence that BMW even documents this much less has internal memo's for dealer service personel to access? I've long ago come to the conclusion that it either doesn't exist or is so closely held it might as well not exist. Unlike my employer, you can't file under the freedom of information act and get these kinds of proprietary reports. I'm sure it'd be easier to get Air Force reports on the fatigue life on an F-15 airframe than how the factory wants these repairs made.

I had the rear bracket to the muffler break off of my (street) Z3. That's like four spot welds can't hold the stock muffler for more than 89k miles? There's maybe double that many spot welds in the trunk holding the bracket for the off set differential mount. This is all that holds the differential from pulling away from the trunk. When it goes one would have to be really lucky not to wrap it into a pretzal, and just becaue there's not manual or paper trail we've got to throw it away, or go race E-Production:eek:

James

[JoshS]

Josh, you've followed the Z3 trunk mount repair threads. Have you ever found any evidence that BMW even documents this much less has internal memo's for dealer service personel to access? I've long ago come to the conclusion that it either doesn't exist or is so closely held it might as well not exist.

I agree. And I think the same is true for any E36 repair documents.

All we can do is repair to original specs. That means we can buy brand new sheet metal, and spot weld it in the same way as the originals. The good news is that those trunk floor panels are still available ... no need for a body-in-white should it happen. It's definitely a more extensive (and expensive!) repair than a broken 944 control arm would be, but should it happen, it won't be the end of the world.

BTW, Rob, I'm sure the same is true for the E46 ... even if that bulletin didn't exist, replacement original body parts (vs. smaller reinforcements) could be purchased and welded in.

[robits325is]

We did have the front sway bar mount tear and we were able to buy the original replacement mount from BMW and spot weld it back in place. That type of repair is easy and returns the car to factory spec.

In the case of the E-36 subframe the cost to replace the floor pan would exceed the cost of some IT cars in their entirety.

Have you had to repair the rear sway bar mounts on your Z3 yet? If so, did you drop the subframe and replace the entire trailing arm or just weld the thin tab back on? If not, what will happen when they fail?.

With reguard to posting internal BMW documentation, I would be weary. The link I supplied was posted by someone else on Bimmerforums. Have you ever read the disclaimer when you log on to the BMW site? Scary stuff. Tightly held is an understatement.

[dj10]

We did have the front sway bar mount tear and we were able to buy the original replacement mount from BMW and spot weld it back in place. That type of repair is easy and returns the car to factory spec.

In the case of the E-36 subframe the cost to replace the floor pan would exceed the cost of some IT cars in their entirety.

Have you had to repair the rear sway bar mounts on your Z3 yet? If so, did you drop the subframe and replace the entire trailing arm or just weld the thin tab back on? If not, what will happen when they fail?.

With reguard to posting internal BMW documentation, I would be weary. The link I supplied was posted by someone else on Bimmerforums. Have you ever read the disclaimer when you log on to the BMW site? Scary stuff. Tightly held is an understatement.

I'm no attorney but wouldn't this be covered under the "Freedom and Information Act"?

[Greg Amy]

...wouldn't this be covered under the "Freedom and Information Act"?
No. FoI (Freedom of Information Act) applies to records held by various Federal government agencies, not to private/public corporations. BMW is fully within its rights to withhold this information as proprietary.

To the issue at hand:

Those documents that Josh linked to are fine example of what exactly one needs to support other-than-returning-to-factory specs mods/repairs. As a tech inspector and a competitor, I would accept those as reasonable proof of appropriate and legal repairs. As long as Rob's car is manufactured within the dates specified in that bulletin, he's golden to do this work. And, frankly, I'm OK with him doing in in advance as a "prepair"; after all, how can one prove that the parts were installed as a repair or not? The mod - as detailed in that "TSB" - is legal, regardless of when or why it was installed.

However, absent such a TSB, this repair is never legal. And, the TSB above does not cover the secondary outstanding issue at hand (and prior), that being the rear subframe tears on the E36, and E46s subsequent to 02/00.

Further, regardless of whether BMW is tight-lipped about this repair or not, the responsibility is on THE COMPETITOR to prove it's legal. If you get protested for such a repair, stating that "it's legal but BMW won't give me a copy of the bulletin" is wholly insufficient as supporting evidence. You WILL be found to be contrary to the regulations absent this proof.

I think Josh summarized the situation quite well:

- "All chassis/structural/electrical repair...shall be in concurrence with factory procedures, specifications, and dimensions..."
- Such a procedure, on your [E46] car [built before 02/00, inclusive] would be in concurrence with factory procedures...
- But doing a similar thing on an E36, or reinforcing the trunk floor of a Z3 because they tear apart at the diff mount, wouldn't be legal without such a document.


Can anyone offer a better way to fix a torn subframe or a ripped out shock mount?
To the rules. Consult your workshop manual and technical service bulletins.


I can"t remember a weekend that Smarty wasnt under someones car welding for a case of Pabst.True, and those repairs could very well be illegal. And, in fact, I've mentioned that to Bob a couple of times, making sure he understands he should do the minimum required to "repair" and not "reinforce."

But prevalence of a modification does not equate legality.


In the case of the E-36 subframe the cost to replace the floor pan would exceed the cost of some IT cars in their entirety.That's unfortunate, but that's the rules. If you don't agree with them, work towards getting them changed. Maybe you can talk the CRB into a spec line allowance for such a repair kit? If your car is not included in the above TSB you could include it as supporting evidence of a significant problem with the car, and you might get an allowance.

As we've noted many, many, many times before on this board, you pick your cars ("warts and all" is what we say). Yes, it sucks to have to repair the chassis of your BMW annually (or more frequently), but it also sucks to have to replace your Rabbit front hubs every three races, and your 944 control arms every few races, and your Saturn and NX2000 rear wheel bearings every few races. Sure, those examples do tend to pale in comparison to what BMW drivers are facing, but the modifications you're suggesting to "fix" your issue(s) are no less illegal than installing Audi hubs, cast aluminum control arms, or illegal alternate replacement bearings, respectively.

Warts. We all got 'em, just in various levels...

GA

[lateapex911]

Further, I suspect that replacing the entire fllor of the car is overly invasive, and that there are more expedient methods.

Rob, I remember you posted pics and captions of the underchassis repair/welding on your E36. So, what you're saying (I'm getting confused with E36s, E46s and Z3s) is that you have the documentation for that procedure, but won't let anyone see it for fear of legal repercussions from BMW?

[JoshS]

Have you had to repair the rear sway bar mounts on your Z3 yet? If so, did you drop the subframe and replace the entire trailing arm or just weld the thin tab back on? If not, what will happen when they fail?

I don't use a rear swaybar, partially for this reason. The swaybar mounts won't break, and it's also less load on the trunk floor, so maybe it'll last longer. If one can get the setup to work without this risk, it's altogether better.

But if I were and the mounts were to break, I'd have just welded the thin tab back on to the trailing arm.

[GKR_17]

I don't use a rear swaybar, partially for this reason. The swaybar mounts won't break, and it's also less load on the trunk floor, so maybe it'll last longer. If one can get the setup to work without this risk, it's altogether better.

But if I were and the mounts were to break, I'd have just welded the thin tab back on to the trailing arm.

You don't have to use the stock swaybar mounts. Weld in better ones somewhere else.

[JoshS]

You don't have to use the stock swaybar mounts. Weld in better ones somewhere else.
Good point. In my case it's more about the fear of flexing the trunk floor to pieces than it is about the failure of the mounts themselves.

[Z3_GoCar]

It's not just the chassis mount that needs to be stonger, the metal tab on the trailing-arm has been know to break. John Huestis rolled his M-roady at Thunderhill turn 3 because the mount broke on the trailing arm. I think I'm going to weld a new thicker tab on my new arms before I install them. Also, the box the bumper mounts to would make an ideal place to mount the rear bar to.

James

[Greg Amy]

I think I'm going to weld a new thicker tab on my new arms before I install them. Also, the box the bumper mounts to would make an ideal place to mount the rear bar to.
Sigh...

James, if you're gonna write stuff like that in a contentious topic like this, how about adding a little * to your statement that says "BUT, please note I'm in ITE, which basically means "Everything", and that I understand this mod is not legal per the ITCS for all other IT classes...?

[Tom Donnelly]

I bought a black / black used 323i sport suspension 5 speed.
I was surprised at how "rare" a manual transmission is on these cars.
Why anyone would want an automatic is beyond me.

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been enjoying the new ride.
No tears in the trunk or sub-frame problems. The car is in really good shape.

Maybe it'll be in ITS in a few years if it holds up on the street!
:eclipsee_steering:

Oh, and right now there's no RR shocks on it, and the washer bottle is still there.

[JeffYoung]

Congrats man! Those are sweet rides, the E46 is a cool looking car and that is sweet motor in it.

Irish Mike races one in ITS by the way and it is fast.

[mlytle]

I bought a black / black used 323i sport suspension 5 speed.
I was surprised at how "rare" a manual transmission is on these cars.
Why anyone would want an automatic is beyond me.

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been enjoying the new ride.
No tears in the trunk or sub-frame problems. The car is in really good shape.

Maybe it'll be in ITS in a few years if it holds up on the street!
:eclipsee_steering:

Oh, and right now there's no RR shocks on it, and the washer bottle is still there.

lol! congrats!

yeah, the dealers seem to order most all of the 323's and tourings with slushboxes. the target market liked them. the higher powered 3's like the 330/328 are easier to find with manual boxes.

[lateapex911]

Congrats! I'm digging my E46 M3. Those cars just have great proportions...and they sit well on the wheels...great stance. (A german thing it seems)

[GKR_17]

Sigh...

James, if you're gonna write stuff like that in a contentious topic like this, how about adding a little * to your statement that says "BUT, please note I'm in ITE, which basically means "Everything", and that I understand this mod is not legal per the ITCS for all other IT classes...?

But since we're talking sway bars, it is legal for all other IT classses.

[Z3_GoCar]

Sigh...

James, if you're gonna write stuff like that in a contentious topic like this, how about adding a little * to your statement that says "BUT, please note I'm in ITE, which basically means "Everything", and that I understand this mod is not legal per the ITCS for all other IT classes...?

Greg, you do have a point about it being off of Tom's topic. I appologise for anything I did to help degenerate this thread into a B**tch session about weakness's in our cars and grey area fixes. Getting acess to the legally required documents involves an act of corporate espionage, which shouldn't be. I also started a new thread to address these concerns and placed it where it belongs, in the rules section.


I bought a black / black used 323i sport suspension 5 speed.
I was surprised at how "rare" a manual transmission is on these cars.
Why anyone would want an automatic is beyond me.

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been enjoying the new ride.
No tears in the trunk or sub-frame problems. The car is in really good shape.

Maybe it'll be in ITS in a few years if it holds up on the street!
:eclipsee_steering:

Oh, and right now there's no RR shocks on it, and the washer bottle is still there.

Hey Tom,

Congratulations on the sweet new ride. I can tell you one reason for the slush-box, women who refuse to learn to coordinate both feet. I happen to be married to one, and she's never going to change. So 50% of our vehicles have automatics, and the other half are mine alone and happen to be bratty roadsters.

James