Rain tires??

[wepsbee]

I am new to SCCA ITA racing and have completed only 2 races last yaer. This year we are looking forward to an entire year of schools and racing. One item that I do not have and am unclear on what to get is a good rain tire. I have a couple of opinions but only 1 from a real racer. I will be using a 205/50/15 size. What do you guys think is a good rain tire in my class?

[lateapex911]

For real rain, dirt stockers. NLA though, AFAIK.
Real rain 2nd choice, Hoosier "molded" rain. Their current rain offering
Intermediate conditions, possibly shaved version of the above.
Damp, dark pavement, but not shiny at all, your usual Dry tire.

[iambhooper]

There are at least 2 options available as rains... the Hoosier Dirt Stocker is a popular choice, but they do tend to wear down quicker o the drying surface, and the Toyo RA1 Full tread. This tire has great tread life.

No more than any of us actually get to race in the rain, I suggest buying whatever fits your budget.

Hope this helps.

[rsx858]

My first choice would be the hoosier rain tires. I however run a full tread Toyo RA1 because the Hoosiers are too expensive for my taste. If your on a budget like me, the RA-1's have execllent tread life as mentioned above.

The classic choice is the dirt stocker, however from what i undrestand, this tire works best in heavy rain and not at all in the dry. what i like about the toyo is that it will work in any condition.

-also the size you mentioned i believe is the spec miata size. so if you do decide to go with the toyo, the tire will be readilly available at the track.

[JLawton]

Number one, no doubt is the Hoosier Dirt Stocker......However, they don't make them anymore. They turn to junk real fast on a drying track. With all the rain races we had last year, I started running them even if there wasn't standing water (and no threat of a dry track). They heat up very nicely and get sticky. I always had problems getting my Hoosier R6s to heat up when the track is wet. My Dirt Stockers are OLD (dry rot helps with the traction :)) and I don't plain on giving them up yet!!

Second choice is the new Hoosier rain. You can still ruin them in the dry but it takes a lot more than the Dirt Stocker....But they are expensive new. They pop up in the classifieds at times.

I think the Toyo is a real compromise. Less expensive, will do well on a drying track but you won't win a rain race on them in the competitive regions. There's probably a good chance of picking them up used.

So, to answer your question......It depends!!

But be prepared. You may go buy them and never even use them

[dave parker]

If you are working with a limited budget (who isn't!) than I would recommend a set of full tread toyo RA1's. They are a fairly decent choice for a rain tire plus you can use them as dry tires if you are really in a pinch (like two flat tires from an off-course excursion and no tire people at the event)even though they wont be as good as shaved RA1's. When you are starting to get to the pointy end of the field the RA1's will not be you choice of tire, but that is a whole other thread.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97

[joeg]

A better choice than the Toyo (as an intermediate) is the KUHMO Victoracer. While they are still available. Less expensive and work better in the damp.

[wepsbee]

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!!!!

[iambhooper]

I think the Toyo is a real compromise. Less expensive, will do well on a drying track but you won't win a rain race on them in the competitive regions. There's probably a good chance of picking them up used.

So, to answer your question......It depends!!

But be prepared. You may go buy them and never even use them

The only time I can actually remember using the full wets were at Lowes in June of 2005. It was my 4 race weekend, and first in a down poor. We had the CRX ITC car up to 8th overall in the ECR... until it dried and the faster guys gor around us.

I have/had a set of shaved Toyo's that I used at school in '04. The Ledge's was off and on damp and they were great for that.

hoop

[Knestis]

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/nasavir33.JPG

Whee!

(This past weekend at the NASA 3 hours @ VIR)

K

[Flyin' MacLean]

If you can swing the cost, go for a Dirt Stocker (if you can find it) or a Hoosier Radial Wet. While the RA1 are cheap(er), they're also a poor wet performer. I could never go back to the RA1 after running the Dirt Stocker. In all seriousness, if you're actually out there racing in the rain, there's no point even trying to compete with the Hoosier guys if you're on Toyos, it's not even a competition. My DS's are 5 seconds a lap faster than the RA1's in heavy rain. Those things are incredible.

[Gary L]

Whee!

(This past weekend at the NASA 3 hours @ VIR)

K
That ain't "Whee!". This is "Whee!". :)

Taken during a COMMA race at Hallett last May... we were 18-20 seconds per lap off dry times, but was having a blast and won going away.

Dirt Stockers, baby!


http://www.bluebrickracing.mysite.com/images/dirt_stockers.jpg

[dominojd]

Dirt stockers work gret in the rain and in the dirt. WHEE!!!!:D
http://www.kakashiracing.com/images/DSC_0352.JPG

[dominojd]

And this is what Hossier rains do for ya. :p Hi Greg.

http://www.kakashiracing.com/images/DSC_0328.JPG

[lateapex911]

Joe, Joe, Joe....where were you on THIS day. Rain of biblical proportions. I only thought I'd thrown the car away once or twice of EACH lap on my way to my first legitimate (More than 10 cars ) ITA win. Dirt Stockers rule! Later (@nd picture) you can see that it dried out nicely!

By the way, if anyone know Josh Kane, I've tried getting in touch with him to buy the files/prints, but to no avail. Send him my way.

[civicracer13]

Oh just wait until the Kumho W710 is released...
http://sccaforums.com/forums/post/271878.aspx

[lateapex911]

Well, that release is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd bet the farm on them.


The W710, which features a slightly softer compound than the V710, will be available in the first quarter of 2008 in the following sizes: 205/50R15, 215/45R16, 265/45R16, 275/40R17, 305/30R18 and 335/350R19.

If it's only slightly softer than the 710, that's not that soft, and the sizes are pretty limited. no 13"s or 14"s.

[JLawton]

Joe, Joe, Joe....where were you on THIS day. Rain of biblical proportions. I only thought I'd thrown the car away once or twice of EACH lap on my way to my first legitimate (More than 10 cars ) ITA win. Dirt Stockers rule! Later (@nd picture) you can see that it dried out nicely!

By the way, if anyone know Josh Kane, I've tried getting in touch with him to buy the files/prints, but to no avail. Send him my way.


Ah, jeese, you gotta make that picture an annual event, huh!! :rolleyes:








:D

[Tkczecheredflag]

Joe, Joe, Joe....where were you on THIS day. Rain of biblical proportions. I only thought I'd thrown the car away once or twice of EACH lap on my way to my first legitimate (More than 10 cars ) ITA win. Dirt Stockers rule! Later (@nd picture) you can see that it dried out nicely!

By the way, if anyone know Josh Kane, I've tried getting in touch with him to buy the files/prints, but to no avail. Send him my way.

Jake - BTW - A wonderful example of what a GREAT driver can do with a RWD car in a rain race - You showed us all that the myth of FWD in the rain is just that - A myth - Although I agree FWD might be better, a driver can make up for a cars shortfalls - you da man. That was a great win in very difficult conditions - You were awesome. Unfortunately, I tossed the REX into a "jersey barrier" in T-3 (a little over confident wiith those Hossier DS), but after getting the fire extinguished I had the pleasure of watching you carry the checkered flag. I do remember the "river" coming thru T-10 pictured - that was a WHEE for sure.

As a former Dirt Dtocker Man, I happen to like the Hoosier intermediates very much - I have run them when the tracked went to dry and they were very dependable - not cheap but dependable. We've won a "C" and an "A" race with the the Hoosier intermediates and I give them a :023:

You gotta love the rain "for sure."

[lateapex911]

Jake - BTW - A wonderful example of what a GREAT driver can do with a RWD car in a rain race - You showed us all that the myth of FWD in the rain is just that - A myth - Although I agree FWD might be better, a driver can make up for a cars shortfalls - you da man.

Tim, thanks for the props, (Unless you were being sarcastic,;)) but I wish I could take all the credit. As you remember, we were sitting in grid when the sky opened, and they sent us back, giving us 5 minutes to come back on rains. I was given help by the Brothers Blethen and crew, and it's very doubtful I could have unharnessed, jacked, changed, and reharnessed in time without their assistance. Thanks to them for that!

But, my real point is that there was so little time, that all you front drivers went out on a dry setup, and I think that was the undoing for you. I feel the FWD Acura, for example, which has easily 40% more torque than my RX-7 (And more hp too), requires a set of compromises to make it really work in the dry. My car has a less specialized setup, and was much more manageable

I'm sure, if you knew what the conditions were going to be like, and had the time, you could have dialed your setup appropriately, and the results would be different.

But hey, That's possibly the last win a 1st gen will ever see in a legitimate ITA class, so I'll take it. :)

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim, thanks for the props, (Unless you were being sarcastic,;)) but I wish I could take all the credit. As you remember, we were sitting in grid when the sky opened, and they sent us back, giving us 5 minutes to come back on rains. I was given help by the Brothers Blethen and crew, and it's very doubtful I could have unharnessed, jacked, changed, and reharnessed in time without their assistance. Thanks to them for that!

But, my real point is that there was so little time, that all you front drivers went out on a dry setup, and I think that was the undoing for you. I feel the FWD Acura, for example, which has easily 40% more torque than my RX-7 (And more hp too), requires a set of compromises to make it really work in the dry. My car has a less specialized setup, and was much more manageable

I'm sure, if you knew what the conditions were going to be like, and had the time, you could have dialed your setup appropriately, and the results would be different.

But hey, That's possibly the last win a 1st gen will ever see in a legitimate ITA class, so I'll take it. :)

No sarcasim here - Keep in mind you have been my hero since viewing your "in car video" that Reed A. let me borrow - It was my stepping off point for my SCCA racing.

In that race we were running the ITC CRX - With Hoosier DS - Was hot to get the overall, in the "C" car - thus my demise in T-3 - too hot - Although I recall you had a the hot shoe of Brian M who took 2nd overall in his Bunny "C" car.

Truth be told - In th rain on the #11 TEG, we throw on the Hoosiers and go race - I never soften up the car - Just run what we brung.

We''ll be looking for more "black and white flags" from you in IT7 this year.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The faster I make my car in the dry, the slower it is in the wet. I would love to have a full wet set-up but it ain't ever gonna happen!

[Knestis]

Full wet set up is easy: Disconnect bars, set shocks/struts to full soft, bolt in rains.

K

[dickita15]

There is no question that Jake’s performance that day was awesome however that was a moment in time. Most of the Acura crowd that was dominating at the time, Anthony, Ritchie and Ray Lee and such, were terrified of rain. Some did not even own rain tires. After that race a number of them upped their game and learned how to race in the wet. It would be a little harder for Jake to pull off the great upset today.
Again no disrespect to Jake’s amazing drive but there is only so large a gap that can be overcome with talent.

[lateapex911]

Full wet set up is easy: Disconnect bars, set shocks/struts to full soft, bolt in rains.

K

Kirk, shhhhhhhhhhh..........
Am I gonna hafta take you out back, or start spilling some of your secrets?? :)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Pllllease! Everyone knows those 'secrets'...my point is that my spring rates keep creeping upward - to the point where no bars and soft shocks just don't do me a lot of good in the wet stuff around here. Actually, the car is more competitive at NHIS in the wet than it is at LRP in the wet. It's always wet at Pocono!

Ideally, I would run a SM set-up in the wet and my 33% stiffer 'regular' set-up in the dry. No time to swap over.

[JLawton]

Full wet set up is easy: Disconnect bars, set shocks/struts to full soft, bolt in rains.

K



Yea, THANKS Kirk......






:)






.

[dominojd]

Tim, thanks for the props, (Unless you were being sarcastic,;)

I'm sure Timmah was being sarcastic. :p

[JLawton]

The faster I make my car in the dry, the slower it is in the wet. I would love to have a full wet set-up but it ain't ever gonna happen!

Um, aren't most cars like that?? :shrug:






:p





.

[gran racing]

We''ll be looking for more "black and white flags" from you in IT7 this year.

Are you saying we be looking for Jake to receive black flags due to his bumper being on fire and white flags for the fire crew on track driving to put it out? :cool:

[lateapex911]

I'm sure Timmah was being sarcastic. :p

Joe, do YOU really want to mess with ME, knowing what I know? Huh?
:cool:

[lateapex911]

We''ll be looking for more "black and white flags" from you in IT7 this year.

Are you saying we be looking for Jake to receive black flags due to his bumper being on fire and white flags for the fire crew on track driving to put it out? :cool:

Hey Gran, when was the last time I had a wheel fly off and needed to shut the event down for 20 minutes to drag MY car back? Hmmmmm????

At least when my bumper caught fire, I drove to the pits and got myself off track..:p

[dominojd]

Joe, do YOU really want to mess with ME, knowing what I know? Huh?
:cool:

Ummmmm MAYBE. :shrug:

[Carlos Gutierrez]

A better choice than the Toyo (as an intermediate) is the KUHMO Victoracer. While they are still available. Less expensive and work better in the damp.

plus 1 on the above ;
The Toyo RA 1 is the worst rain tire out there, period. Whether you're a new guy or an experienced racer. They suck in the wet.
Buy the Hoosier DOT radial wets, they will actually let you drive 'off line' to pass people. If you're budget can't handle them, go for the kumho Victo, or even the new Toyo R888, which handles better than the RA1 in wet conditions.
You did say "rain" tires ? not rain and dry tires. There is a world of difference in grip between the Hoosier wet and the RA1.
Be safe,
Carlos Gutierrez

[Tkczecheredflag]

plus 1 on the above ;
You did say "rain" tires ? not rain and dry tires. There is a world of difference in grip between the Hoosier wet and the RA1.
Be safe,
Carlos Gutierrez

Carlos - I really enjoy racing in the rain - Some people think I love it - I have to say that I do not see a noticable difference in the Hossier DS and the new Rain tires - I've run them on a 1st Gen CRX and a 3rd Gen Integra and I found them very adequate in both cars and in very wet conditions. I will say that the REX looked like a Match Box car with the Hoosier Wets- But it was fun to drive.

Additional interesting photos from Doug.
http://the16v.com/SCCA/05/narrc/thumbnails/DSC_0575.jpg (http://the16v.com/SCCA/05/narrc/pages/DSC_0575.htm)
Doug Koza - Photographer

[gran racing]

If someone wants to run at the front and has the budget for it, then yeah I'd buy the Hoosier DS or Wets. For someone new to racing (that's what the original post was, right?) then the Toyos can make a great wet tire. I now have the Hoosier Wets but when first started racing the Toyos made perfect sense. I knew that there was NO way I'd win even in the wet, I needed a lot more seat time, and thus the Toyos fit my goals better. When I walked around the paddock, all I saw was Hoosier DS dry rotting. What I liked about the Toyos was that after a while if I hadn't used them, I could use them in the dry then move to Hoosier wets if my goals changed (which they did).

I also will say that some of this will depend upon the climate you live in. If one lives in Seattle, then don't even bother by dry tires and stock up on the Hoosier Wet or DS tires.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And we can't say this enough - they don't make the Dirt Stocker anymore.

[Greg Amy]

And we can't say this enough - they don't make the Dirt Stocker anymore.
For - what? - two years now? That means that any Dirt Stockers you find used now, unless they've been METICULOUSLY cared for, are starting to go away. Joe DiMinno *swears* by his cast-off Dirt Stockers (the dude literally pulls them off the scrap heap) but if we were to put him on some new radials I bet he'd love 'em...

[seckerich]

Ran the RA1 first session at Barber last year in moderate rain and floated most of the straights, spinning in a straight line. Ran new Hoosier rains in the race with torrential downpour and went from 13th to 3rd in 5 laps before they called the race. No comparison in grip and water shedding. Toyo is great if you think it will dry up, not for real rain.

[Parrish57]

I was also at Barber in the rain. I was on some RA1s in qualifying and was scared to death. 15 seconds off of the pace, too. That's why my new rain setup is 4 jack stands!

[A Team racing]

I have two sets for an RX7. Brand new Hoosiers and older version I believe are called mud grabbers or sometghing like that. I hear the older ones are the best. I would like to sale one or the other set. I am in Florida so call if i can help Mike 561 414 1830.

[wepsbee]

Thanks for all the input, I can always count on help!!!!