IT Triple Crown

[Butch Kummer]

Todd has mentioned it in other threads, but he & I have been working a program that recognizes the best drivers in a combination of one's divisional series, the I.T.SPEC*tacular, and the ARRC by GRM. Unlike the National Triple Crown (divisional champion, June Sprints, Runoffs) you won't need to win every leg, so a "champion" would be declared in every nationally-recognized IT class.

Since the SARRC series has already begun and many/most people have already established their plans for 2008, we're looking at starting the program for the 2009 racing season. We've been working on a set of rules that we're almost ready to send out for public comment, but before we do that we want to establish a "Triple Crown Advisory Committee" to review what we've done. We're looking for one person from each SCCA division that (1) is part of the IT community, (2) wants to help build IT participation, and (3) is capable of putting aside personal agendas to help do that. We're not skeered of "enthusiastic" voices (in fact we encourage them), but we DO need people that can work in a team environment. Therefore:

If you're interested in being part of the IT Triple Crown Advisory Committee, either respond in this thread or send me (or Todd) a PM stating your interest and qualifications. We're not talking a ton of work - less than ten hours as we establish the rules then maybe a few hours in your division promoting the program and answering questions from those you normally come into contact with (figuratively, not literally). We'd like to keep things going, so if you ARE interested (or know someone you think would be a good representative) let me/us know by March 15, 2008.

We're also looking for sponsors as well, so if you're interested in THAT aspect let us know, too. And no, there's no time limit on that! :cool:

See ya...

[TAC]

O.K. gang,

We are currently looking for a representative from each of the divisions that make up SCCA. Right now we have two positions filled. This doesn't mean you can't participate in the decision making process just that your division has a spokesperson.

NEDiv. Andy Bettencourt
GLDiv. Kevin Ruck
MidDiv.......?
SEDiv........?
SOWDiv.....?
CenDiv......?
Rocky Mountain....?
Northern Pacific.....?
Southern Pacific.....?

This is a start up program so climb aboard and have a say in the I.T. version of a National Championship.

Todd & Butch

[tom_sprecher]

I'm in if you'll have me. :eek:

[Butch Kummer]

Tom Sprecher in an advisory capacity - now that is a scary, SCARY thought! :cool:

[lateapex911]

It's too bad the Rockies get in the way of our NW and Pacific edge friends.

[tom_sprecher]

Tom Sprecher in an advisory capacity - now that is a scary, SCARY thought! :cool:

Thanks for the vote of confidence there, Butch. :)

[JoshS]

Before I sign up for NorPac, I just need a little explanation of what this really is. I mean, we don't have a divisional series, but 3 of the norpac regions have their own, as so a couple of the sopac regions. And in fact, San Francisco Region and CalClub are in different divisions, but are geographically much more accessible to each other than other regions within their respective divisions.

In addition, I don't want to be spokesman for something where I stand up and say, "Head to Mid-Ohio! Head to Road Atlanta!" when the reality is that pretty much no one will do that. This is regional racing, those places are too far away.

So, what is it that you had in mind?

[Butch Kummer]

Josh,

In the current version of the proposal we're defined "Divisional Series" as a series of races contested on at least three different tracks that is open to all members of a division (in your case it would be two divisions, and that's still cool).

The divisional series would be one leg of the crown and is of equal value points-wise with the SPEC*tacular and the ARRC. While it would be technically possible to win without coming east of the Rockies, it would be highly unlikely. Regardless, we don't want to arbitrarily exclude anyone that might be interested.

Thinking outside the box here (I tend to do that at times), if there's enough interest maybe we designate a hotly-contested Left Coast event (maybe the Rose Cup?) that will count equally with the divisional series, the SPEC*tacular and the ARRC, then count your best three finishes? I'd have to rewrite the proposal to accomplish that, but electrons are cheap at this point. :rolleyes:

BTW - unlike the National Triple Crown where you have to win all three legs to win the "crown", we'd have a points structure for 1st thru 18th place with the most points being the winner. Therefore we'd have a "king" (or queen) in each class every year.

[JoshS]

Unfortunately, things are just structured differently in the pacific coast regions.

There are no divisional series, but there are regional series. San Francisco Region and Cal Club regions both conduct long series using 3 tracks each. There isn't much crossover between the drivers.

Oregon Region has its own regional series, conducted entirely at Portland, and Northwest Region has its own regional series, conducted pretty much only at Bremerton. They also have Pacific Raceways but regular regionals aren't held there. And those two regions are only about 3 hours apart, so I think there is more crossover there.

Arizona Region has its own series, conducted on 2 tracks. Some crossover with CalClub, not much.

Seems like the San Francisco and CalClub regional series would probably qualify as what you are looking for. But Rose Cup wouldn't make sense to use as the big enticer for those people, since normally they don't travel more than 4 hours or so to their furthest regional, and the Rose Cup is about 11 hours from San Francisco and a lot further than that from Los Angeles.

So I'm not sure about how to include the pacific northwest and arizona drivers, and really, I'm not sure that it makes sense to try to include the pacific coast drivers at all.

For people who want to travel around, isn't that what national racing is for? I always thought so. Yes, this excludes IT, but I think that's a different argument.

[Butch Kummer]

If you could win a (mythical) "National Championship" in ITR by doing well (not necessarily winning) in your SFR series, a "designated" West Coast event (I use the Rose Cup as an example simply because I know about it - a different "big" event may be better) and making one trip east of the Rockies to either Mid-Ohio or Road Atlanta, would that be a positive or negative enticement?

Obviously Todd & I are proposing this program to add prestige and entries to the SPEC*tacular and the ARRC, but it also gives the IT driver with no desire to spend the money on a Runoffs-eligible class a National Championship to strive for. An added bonus is it's not all dependent on one "all or nothing" event that makes normally sane drivers sometimes behave like jackasses.

I have no control over whether or not SCCA will ever allow IT to ever become a Runoffs category and I agree that's a discussion for another time. Given the rules that we're playing with right now, what we're proposing is a "bigger pond" for those that might be ready for such a thing. And if the Pacific Coast drivers aren't interested, that's fine as well - we DON'T need to be all things to all people.

[spnkzss]

If you could win a (mythical) "National Championship" in ITR by doing well (not necessarily winning) in your SFR series, a "designated" West Coast event (I use the Rose Cup as an example simply because I know about it - a different "big" event may be better) and making one trip east of the Rockies to either Mid-Ohio or Road Atlanta, would that be a positive or negative enticement?

Obviously Todd & I are proposing this program to add prestige and entries to the SPEC*tacular and the ARRC, but it also gives the IT driver with no desire to spend the money on a Runoffs-eligible class a National Championship to strive for. An added bonus is it's not all dependent on one "all or nothing" event that makes normally sane drivers sometimes behave like jackasses.

I have no control over whether or not SCCA will ever allow IT to ever become a Runoffs category and I agree that's a discussion for another time. Given the rules that we're playing with right now, what we're proposing is a "bigger pond" for those that might be ready for such a thing. And if the Pacific Coast drivers aren't interested, that's fine as well - we DON'T need to be all things to all people.

You start a triple crown type of mentallity with everyone striving to be that winner, how much longer until the costs associated with an IT car begin to come close to a National car?

[Knestis]

Costs increase with aspirations. There's no upward cost pressure (other than opportunity and maybe social influences) on entrants at large if we raise the bar by creating some bigger opportunity at the top.

It's a shame the PCRRC is defunct. We used to travel down from Seattle for that because it carried the same kind of weight on the Left coast, as does the ARRC out here. I've also forgotten how rough it was racing in the NW (post-Olympia and Deer Park airport circuits). "Hey, let's go to Sears Point! It's only 15 hours!"

K

[erlrich]

Butch/Todd,

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for quesitons, but since there doesn't seem to be a better one I'll ask here:

How many drivers from the west coast typically show up for the ARRC? How many were at the first IT SPEC*tacular (probalby not as significant, as '07 was the first year for that event)?
Am I understanding this correctly; the way this will be structured a driver could (theoretically) win the championship by participating in only 2 of the 3 legs?
Has there been any discussion about adding a third, independent event to the triple crown (April-May sprints?), rather than requiring a driver to obligate to an entire series to have a shot?I think the whole idea of an IT championship series is great, I'm not sure that it will ever be truly a "National" championship though. I just don't see that many west coast IT drivers making that kind of commitment.

[tom_sprecher]

I am not familiar with their rule set but it gives me an idea. Instead of including only series run inside a division maybe we should include certain series that fit an agreed upon set of criteria. This could help to include MARRS and the west coats guys.

Whadya think?

[JoshS]

I really don't want to open this can of worms, but I have to point out that you are basically creating two types of "national championships" within the club ... actually three:

1) Winner-takes-all, for national classes, single Runoffs race
2) "Triple Crown", for national classes
3) "IT Triple Crown", for IT classes

If we need a national championship for IT classes, why create another type? Why not just make IT national?

Sorry about opening that can of worms. But I honestly think this is what you're doing, just making an end-run around it. The biggest complaint I hear about the IT-goes-national concept is that once there is more prestige on the line, then costs will escalate. Aren't you trying to create more prestige?

Specifically to answer your question: I'd be all over this, but I don't think I'm a representative sample. I've been a vocal proponent of IT-goes-national. I have driven in National classes and raced at the Runoffs, and I would love to do the same in my IT car. But I appear to be in the minority.

[tom_sprecher]

All good points but implementing an IT Triple Crown is well within the scope and realm of possibility of a committed few vs. making IT national classes. I feel the former is not really opening a can of worms but trying to make the later happen, although attractive, would be like stepping in a huge pile of...well you get the idea.

[Butch Kummer]

Butch/Todd,


How many drivers from the west coast typically show up for the ARRC? How many were at the first IT SPEC*tacular (probalby not as significant, as '07 was the first year for that event)?
Am I understanding this correctly; the way this will be structured a driver could (theoretically) win the championship by participating in only 2 of the 3 legs?
Has there been any discussion about adding a third, independent event to the triple crown (April-May sprints?), rather than requiring a driver to obligate to an entire series to have a shot?

. I looked back at the entries for the 2007 ARRC by GRM and there actually were no (0) IT drivers from any farther west than Texas and Minnesota (which is still a substantial hike!). We had some Left Coast guys in some of the other classes, but not IT.

. Theorectically possible, but not likely.

. Yes, but it just came up today so the concept is in it's infancy. We need to kick it around and get back with y'all.

As far as us driving up the cost to compete in IT by adding an organized process designed to encourage participation and recognize those drivers that do well, I/we will have to plead guilty. What we are talking about is a purely voluntary program that costs the racer nothing (did I mention there was no Triple Crown entry fee?) but provides a bigger prize (a trophy, sure, but mainly bragging rights) for those that want to test their skills against the best. Just as there are various reasons why some national drivers have never attended the Runoffs (and never will), it's expected that some/many IT drivers won't care about competing for the IT Triple Crown. For those that ARE interested in the "next level", however, we're exploring the possibility of creating a way of defining that level.

[dickita15]

There are some that have felt that the ARRC was comparable to a national championship in IT and other regional classes. Of course on the other side there are some that say it is just a big regional.
The Triple Crown idea with two premier events would give a more viable and defensible argument for how hard this is to win. While I do not think it will get the participation to be credible for those west of the Rockies I think it is a noble endeavor.

[trhoppe]

Put me in the camp that says "just take IT national". We'd kick a few other classes to the curb in terms of entries. Boo hoo for them.

That way, there is the regional playground and the national playground. Set it up the way SM is right now.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems the best idea to me.

-Tom

[Catch22]

I'd be interested, but the Ruckster is already in.
I'll just bug him alot. :)

[Catch22]

Put me in the camp that says "just take IT national". We'd kick a few other classes to the curb in terms of entries. Boo hoo for them.

That way, there is the regional playground and the national playground. Set it up the way SM is right now.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems the best idea to me.

-Tom

I used to think the same thing, but over the years I've changed my mind.

I like IT the way it is. The rules are stable (if anything they can be accused of moving too slowly) and there are several big races (ARRC, NERRC, IT Spec) popping up where a win is just as hard as winning something like the June Sprints.

Me and my wallet are just fine, thanks.

[TAC]

. I looked back at the entries for the 2007 ARRC by GRM and there actually were no (0) IT drivers from any farther west than Texas and Minnesota (which is still a substantial hike!). We had some Left Coast guys in some of the other classes, but not IT.

. Theorectically possible, but not likely.

. Yes, but it just came up today so the concept is in it's infancy. We need to kick it around and get back with y'all.

As far as us driving up the cost to compete in IT by adding an organized process designed to encourage participation and recognize those drivers that do well, I/we will have to plead guilty. What we are talking about is a purely voluntary program that costs the racer nothing (did I mention there was no Triple Crown entry fee?) but provides a bigger prize (a trophy, sure, but mainly bragging rights) for those that want to test their skills against the best. Just as there are various reasons why some national drivers have never attended the Runoffs (and never will), it's expected that some/many IT drivers won't care about competing for the IT Triple Crown. For those that ARE interested in the "next level", however, we're exploring the possibility of creating a way of defining that level.

*Our longest hauler for the I.T.SPEC*tacular was an ITB driver from Colorado.

*It would be tough to only run two events and have a shot at the title

*Ditto on Butch's remark

*I doubt we will have enough contingencies anytime soon for a driver to sink $50,000 in an I.T. car. :) In all seriousness, the whole idea of going National with I.T. has been around for a long time with a lot of talk and little progress. If this is where the "I.T. goes National" ball starts rolling then lets do it.

Todd

[JLawton]

You start a triple crown type of mentallity with everyone striving to be that winner, how much longer until the costs associated with an IT car begin to come close to a National car?


This has already happened, depending on what area you're from. Trust me, there are many IT guys out there spending "National" money on their cars.

[TAC]

I agree Jeff, It seems to me that the more competitive the arena in your section of the country the more money you tend to spend. Now when you guys start showing up in professional haulers with back up cars..........:)

Todd

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now when you guys start showing up in professional haulers with back up cars..........:)

Todd
Uhh-oh....

[TAC]

You don't count Andy your running a business. Or do you steal a customer car if yours goes south during the weekend. :p

[IPRESS]

Great Idea Butch!
Don't let the nit pickers stop the progression of having a "Top Dog" won on a points system.
There are always going to be limits on how far people want to travel for races. Hey the price of diesel is making me check my hole card, and I love hauling to RAtlanta or RAmerica etc. (not all that keen on the haul home usually!) But just the same, I am one of the guys that hauls for 14 hours to ARRC..... because it is MY premier event each year. Running for a points championship (and maybe a few trinkets if I finished up the list) would be icing on the cake. My suggestion (and mine are not always cracker jacks) would be to use SARRC, NARRC, MIDAM, etc type IT championships as points gaining series, with ARRC and the IT SPECTAC as heavier weighted points gainers. I know the SARRC and some of the other hotly contested series are tough to win, but some DIV/REG series are won on participation / attendence.
But back to the original idea.....it is a good one and you guys should run with it.
Us nit pickers (yeah me too) can stay out of the way and benefit.
Mac

[Andy Bettencourt]

You don't count Andy your running a business. Or do you steal a customer car if yours goes south during the weekend. :p

Shhhhhhhhhhh...:D

[shwah]

I really like this idea. We have a series here in Cen-Div that should fit the program perfectly.

I don't really have a lot of time to dedicate, but I want to see this come to fruition. If no one steps forward I can be the contact for Cen-Div.

As far as qualifications - I'm an ITB racer, and I keep in touch with the other ITB guys in our division. Not super active with the region/division management, but do know some of those folks.

[TAC]

I really like this idea. We have a series here in Cen-Div that should fit the program perfectly.

I don't really have a lot of time to dedicate, but I want to see this come to fruition. If no one steps forward I can be the contact for Cen-Div.

As far as qualifications - I'm an ITB racer, and I keep in touch with the other ITB guys in our division. Not super active with the region/division management, but do know some of those folks.

Chris,

We would love to have you on the committee. PM Butch or myself with your contact info.

Todd

[TAC]

O.K.,

We now have reps. for CENDiv, SEDiv, NEDiv and GLDiv. We are still looking for anyone interested in working on the Advisory Committee from:

Midwest and Southwest divisions. If anyone is interested let us know.

Thanks,

Todd