Breaking News from LRP [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

Greg Amy

02-15-2008, 03:52 PM

...scheduled resurfacing project slated for start as soon as the weather breaks.
"Here we go", indeed...

I was told that the track may offer July 3rd 4th and 5th as an alternative...these new dates are a direct conflict with NNJR's pocono event and would probably cause a failure of both events if they occured together.
I suggest the answer to that is obvious: don't schedule an event conflict. I'd rather reduce the number of available dates than take the chance of destroying both.

Plus, July 3rd is a work day. I wouldn't personally be taking an additional day off for that.

Will we lose rights to events next year if we choose to pass on the alternative? Of course, the "scheduled paving" means Skippy got his Club members, so we may be losing dates regardless...

What about the second drivers school? with no dates available do you think we will be hurt in the future by making newbies wait till october for the Glen?
Any sense of the demand for the second school this year? Obviously, making ANYONE wait is a bad thing, but maybe we can work around it depending on the demand. All the cool licensed drivers instruct at a July 3/4 Thursday/Friday school (no Regional) then we all travel en masse Friday night to the Regional at Pocono? I *would* consider an extra work day for instructing.

This is a toughie, eh? Should be a "fun" year... - GA

gran racing

02-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Yeah, I've been told that the repave will happen in June but wasn't sure how it would impact the two SCCA events. I was being very optimistic in thinking it would all happen right between the two events. Yeah, I know. :rolleyes: It sure would be nice to know the impact it will have to these events soon.

Andy Bettencourt

02-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Skip has plenty of members already. The plan is a 'glass smooth surface' much more extensive than originally planned.

I also would like not to have conficting events. Let's see if we can leverage this inconvienence into some prime dates (or even a discount - ya) next year.

The "Club' already has 60 track days this year. I am looking at their schedule right now. They were independent of what we had on our sched.

Jeremy Billiel

02-15-2008, 05:08 PM

This is a tough situation, but I would not have 2 dates compete with each other as it would be a looser for both parties, although if push comes to shove I think LRP would win as many would want to get on the track surface.

dominojd

02-15-2008, 05:59 PM

I would suggest sticking with Pocono and dump LRP. Well yeah my decsion is sway by my location, but we haven't had 2 pocono events in years and if the region putting it on this year loses I guess we will never see it again.

I think we shouldn't go to LRp until the NARRC off's then everyone will have a even playing field on the newly paved track. :)

Andy Bettencourt

02-15-2008, 06:06 PM

Any sense of the demand for the second school this year? Obviously, making ANYONE wait is a bad thing, but maybe we can work around it depending on the demand. All the cool licensed drivers instruct at a July 3/4 Thursday/Friday school (no Regional) then we all travel en masse Friday night to the Regional at Pocono? I *would* consider an extra work day for instructing.

I just re-read this. A VERY creative idea indeed! I am sure Flatout would be willing to support the school as instructors as well and then move along to Pocono.

Maybe a discount at Pocono to drivers who get signed off at LRP and race that weekend.

I like it!!!

dtanthon

02-15-2008, 09:26 PM

Just to clarify. This event at Pocono July 5 and 6 is a Tri-Region event.
This is a Double NJRRS (www.NJRRS.com (http://www.njrrs.com/)) / Double NARRC (www.NARRC.com (http://www.narrc.com/)) with the 2nd round of the Driving Impressions Pro-IT (www.NJRRS.com/proit.html (http://www.njrrs.com/proit.html)).

The NNJR event is May 10 and 11 and is a Double NJRRS / Double NARRC with the 1st round of the Driving Impressions Pro-IT.

NNJR will be at Lime Rock hosting a SCCA National on August 1 and 2. This will have the 3rd round of the Driving Impressions Pro-IT as a support race for the National. The Pro-IT will be Saturday only, Andy may have more detail on the between qualifying and the race activities.

I left a message with LRP today as well to get more information on the NNJR date. If I hear anything I'll be sure to post.

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE

dickita15

02-16-2008, 08:34 AM

I just re-read this. A VERY creative idea indeed! I am sure Flatout would be willing to support the school as instructors as well and then move along to Pocono.

Maybe a discount at Pocono to drivers who get signed off at LRP and race that weekend.

I like it!!!
With the economics of Lime Rock a region can survive doing a school / regional with two days rent. I do not believe it is possible to pay for Thursday and Friday or even just Friday with the entries from a school. The school would have to be very expensive.
The one interesting thing about the Friday Saturday 4th and 5th dates is they could both be race days.
I am pretty sure with new pavement a lime rock event would work but it would hurt Tri Region’s event a lot.

16v

02-16-2008, 12:04 PM

The plan is a 'glass smooth surface' much more extensive than originally planned.

until the ALMS cars come in and pull it up again :cool:

Andy Bettencourt

02-16-2008, 12:12 PM

I am most certianly not informed 100% on what LRP is 'demanding' from us for that new weekend they want to give us but:

I would be very dissappointed if there were two NARRC events on the same weekend. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

It also seems to me that since the Tri-Region double is already on the schedule and didn't have any conflict, it should get the nod.

I guess the NARRC committee could 'pull' the NARRC sanction from that Pocono event and give it to the LRP event...but there is impact to the bonus point situation:

1. Pocono would lose it's 2nd NARRC event - so it would lose bonus eligibility.
2. If this LRP race isn't 'rescheduled', then the only race at LRP would be the NARRC runoffs - also eliminating it from bonus eligibility
3. Does pulling the NARRC sanction from the Tri-Region hurt the inter-regional relationships?
4. Having two NARRC races on the same weekend really hurts the series and the teamwork that has seemingly been building over this last off-season

Can someone who was at the NER meeting last night chime in on the thought processes in double scheduling? There is no doubt that a double at LRP on new pavement with a school would be a hugely popular event but lets not do it if it hurts the NeDiv relationships.

Maybe Tri-Region can have a PDX on Sat and a single on Sun? Drive from LRP to Pocono Sat night for a one day sprint?

dominojd

02-16-2008, 07:34 PM

It would be kinda shitty to screw Tri Region.

dickita15

02-16-2008, 08:31 PM

There is nothing saying that LRP on 7/5-6 has to be a Narrc event, but if Pocono is Narrc and LRP is not it would still be rough on Tri Region.

gran racing

02-16-2008, 08:44 PM

Yeah, I really don't it would be right to do either and you know me, I really like LRP. While the idea of people attending an event at Lime Rock then traveling to the Pocono event sounds nice in theory, it will detract from people participating (volunteers and entrants) at the Tri Region event.

Andy Bettencourt

02-16-2008, 11:15 PM

One other thing to think about (I guess) is that Tri-Region holds this event every year and it is never a NARRC. In recent years I believe it has been a PDX and a single.

I wonder if there is a way to take the LRP days, make them a double NARRC and not kill the TR weekend. What NARRC racers have attended that TR weekend at Pocono in the past? How much effect with the double booking really have?

It's not ideal for sure. Greg made mention above - what if LRP tells us that if we DON'T take the new dates, we will lose them in subsiquent years? The NARRC committee has to look at the long term health of the series.

Have fun with this one. Flatout will be at either event, whichever one 'survives' - and if we have to travel to Pocono for a Sunday race after LRP, so be it.

gran racing

02-16-2008, 11:36 PM

There's the NARRC committee and then there's the region / club as a whole. Flatout is in the racing business, therefore your view point just might be a bit different than the typical Club Racer. That's not meant as a negative viewpoint, but it is what it is. Having an event during the same weekend would have an impact upon the Tri Region event. (I previously mentioned how I really like LRP, but I never said that I'm so not a fan of Pocono.) :cool: Don't f-over the Tri Region.

Magical Trevor

02-17-2008, 01:11 AM

Well... the track has opened up the month of March for rescheduling of July's dates for clubs, etc....

...Winteregional? :D

TimM ITB

02-17-2008, 06:27 AM

my 2 cents:

I can't believe that we would even be considering re-scheduling right into another region's already scheduled date? From what I have heard and read, MUCH effort has been expended by the regions to ensure as much harmony amongst dates as possible. And this year, it seems to be really in sync with the NARRC, most of the enduros and now the IT Fest. To create the kind of angst that will probably arise amongst the regions if we re-schedule just because LRP has thrown us a ONE TIME curve ball seems to not make much sense to me.

And on the same theme but with a twist.........why wouldn't the host region for the 2 races cancelled perhaps be breathing a sigh of relief? With the turnouts of the last couple of years, based on the escalating costs at LRP, strange weather, full moons, whatever, hasn't the car counts for these 2 weekends been perilously low?

And lastly, since this is a ONE TIME occurrence, I would think (and this limb that I am on is pretty slim I grant you) that the management at LRP would understand if we can't pony up and take on new dates for the cancelled weekends - because of EXISTING scheduling conflicts? If they posted the dates as available "bonus" dates to other clubs - again a ONE TIME bonus arrangement - and they could get the dates sold, and save the dates for us for next year, etc.........why would they have a gripe? They get the income that they want, even with the cancelling of the original dates with the SCCA? Seems like they win, doesn't it? We lose 2 race weekends at LRP, and the school, but maybe we could try to add a Friday school at NHIS?

Too simple an approach?

As for the NARRC and the bonus points situation - couldn't we amend the rules for just ONE year? Or, since the NARRC race is a double points race anyway, just leave it alone. We all get to LRP with the same lack of track time / handicap?

Whatever the outcome, I think we need to consider the existing level of cooperation amongst the regions (at least in terms of scheduling) as a priority, and not something to be potentially lost in our haste to react to this one time problem.

thanks for listening.

tim m

JLawton

02-17-2008, 08:32 AM

Screw LRP. The only bad thing I see is elimination of the school. I think that it's importnt to have another school during the seaosn in the NE.

Maybe add a day to an NHIS event for a school???

I'm goin' to Pocono!

.
.

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 09:35 AM

As I said in my first post, having two NARRC events on one day is not the way to go. BOTH events will fail. But we as people 'not in the know' need to understand that there may be other forces at work here. It is possible that:

LRP tells us that we need to take this one or lose it forever
Tri-Region can't cancel their date or they will lose that one

Neither of those things may be happening but they are possible.

Tim is right in that there was much harmony in the scheduling this year and this is a huge curve ball. We need to do what is best for NeDiv and the NARRC at the same time, remembering or course that Tri-Region is NOT part of the NARRC series.

Dave, I don't understand your comment about Flatout. I am just telling you what *I* would do as a racer during this one-time curve ball to 1. race as much as I can and 2. help everyone involved survive. The Pocono race is a 'far away' double and it was on my schedule anyway. So the whole weekend plus a day of travel was booked anyway. Big picture time.

Looking at the NESCCA schedule from last year, I don't even see a second Pocono as an option - for ANY series. Actually, WHAT IS Tri-Region? It isn't listed as an offical region on the NeDiv section of the SCCA site...

If we don't pay a 'penalty with LRP for not holding the July races, I say Pocono. If we lose a weekend if we don't take it, I say LRP. Even BMWCCA doesn't have any LRP dates this year.

dickita15

02-17-2008, 09:40 AM

So without the Lime Rock weekend the Narrc schedule would be 4 NHMS races, 4 Pocono, a double at the Glen and one each at NLMP and LRP. With current rules only Pocono and NHMS would earn track points

dickita15

02-17-2008, 09:46 AM

By the way Tri-region is a cooperation of Philadelphia, South Jersey and Northeast Pennsylvania regions that was started to sanction races at a time none of the three had the resources to do it alone.

gran racing

02-17-2008, 09:58 AM

Andy, my comment was only that Flatout would have some extra incentive to attend both and most people wouldn't have the commitment to attend both races.

JaxonMotorsports44

02-17-2008, 10:07 AM

We definitely need to have open communications with TRI region and LRP and quickly I would think. I believe as has been mentioned...

1. We need to find out what the impact is on TRI region if the date was dropped?
2. What is the impact if LRP date (July) on the 2009 schedule if the date is not taken?
3. Can the regions/ NARRC come up with a reasonable solution based on 1 and/or 2.

Does anyone have "pull" with LRP? Can a "The Club" date be added somewhere else in the year so SCCA could have just 1 weekend before the NARRC-offs?

What would NNJR think about making their national a regional???

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 10:08 AM

Andy, my comment was only that Flatout would have some extra incentive to attend both and most people wouldn't have the commitment to attend both races.
Dave,

You have to understand that the only reason we would attend both is because the RACERS wanted us to. If they didn't, we wouldn't.

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 10:11 AM

We have a great relationship with the people running 'The Club'. Not sure how they interact with Georgia. I can find out.

The Club has two Fri/Sat events in July. 18-19 and 25-26.

JaxonMotorsports44

02-17-2008, 10:17 AM

If they are flexible, there could be a good solution.. However, isnt the 2nd July date the same as the WGI weekend??

dickita15

02-17-2008, 10:42 AM

July 5-6 Narrc Pocono
July 12-13 Nerrc NHMS
July 19-20 Narrc NJMP
July 26-27 Narrc Glen

JaxonMotorsports44

02-17-2008, 01:06 PM

Looks like July is not a good option for a reschedule...

dominojd

02-17-2008, 01:15 PM

We need to do what is best for NeDiv and the NARRC at the same time, remembering or course that Tri-Region is NOT part of the NARRC series.

Then why are they hosting a NARRC race? I'm with Jeff and others on this one for sure. LRP has screwed us so f-ing bad over the past few years, if it was up to me I would tell to stick all thier dates in their ass. Just me though.

Let's see run double at Pocono and single at LRP same price. No brainer.

gran racing

02-17-2008, 01:26 PM

Well, I don't know about that Joe. I'd take a single at LRP over anything at Pocono.

Greg Amy

02-17-2008, 06:56 PM

Well, I don't know about that Joe. I'd take a single at LRP over anything at Pocono.
Well, I don't know about that Dave; I'd take a single at Pocono over anything at LRP...

If I'm racing that weekend, I'm going to Pocono. If NER chooses to schedule an event that weekend, well, it would be disappointing. Like Dave said, "don't f-over Tri-Regions". - GA

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 07:41 PM

The NARRC is a series. It is made up of 4 regions (of which TR is not). We as drivers WANTED a second date at Pocono so we could make the bonus point structure more user-friendly as well as keep more dates 'south'. TR accomodated this desire. Heck, it was a win for both - IMHO this event was going to be a nice little success as it was paying NARRC points.

In talking with some people today, it does seem that NER will be taking that date. It doesn't have to be a NARRC race either. Could very well be a NERRC only race.

My thought on that is a lose-lose. I believe 1/2the people will follow the NARRC points and avoid the LRP $425ish entry fee (for a TRUE double) at LRP while the other half will want to run on the new surface, set some track records and run the double. *I* think more people will follow the NARRC and pay lower fees but reasonable people disagree.

I would rather run at LRP (isn't it intersting that people like the tracks they can do better at? Duh.)

There are two decisons here in my mind - working against each other.

1. NER will probably grab this date.
2. The NARRC committee needs to decide what event that day will maximize the series.

Tough call either way.

<<<<Falls to knees and prays for Palmer>>>>

JLawton

02-17-2008, 07:46 PM

Well, I don't know about that Joe. I'd take a single at LRP over anything at Pocono.

Dave,

You need to stop being a wuss about going to other tracks!! You need to be able to drive more track than just LRP and Mid O!! :p

gran racing

02-17-2008, 08:20 PM

Summit Point Labor Day - unless you're afraid. :p
Watkins Glen, probably the NARRC and/or Fun One.
Mid Ohio as you said.
NJ Track is a possiblity.
Road Atlanta ARRC?

Notice how there are not rovals. I'm just not a fan. Did the Pocono thing once. Jeff, I just set-up a Pay Pal donation so you can help me goto more real race tracks. :happy204:

Greg Amy

02-17-2008, 09:16 PM

...it does seem that NER will be taking that date.
I'm just sitting here shaking my head. Have we not learned ANYTHING from the Mo-Hud debacle last year? How many times did we (the competitors) tell the organizers last year that we had very little interest in back-to-back-to-back-to-back weekends, especially one at a track that is so expensive to run? And now we're getting two events back-to-back ON THE SAME WEEKEND??? And, having to take ANOTHER day off of work to do it?

Who in the hell are these events being run for? The organizers or the racers?

Whatever. I wish NER luck, but I suggest they ask Mo-Hud to save them a seat at the credit agency...and one at the negotiating table next time they have to ask Tri-Regions for a favor.

Utterly amazing.

indy33

02-17-2008, 09:57 PM

The July 5 & 6 Tri-Region event at Pocono (Double NARRC, Double NJRRS, and Pro-IT) is a big event in Tri-Region’s plan to return to putting on SCCA Regionals at Pocono. We have a long history of hosting Regional races there and only switched to PDXs three years ago to avoid conflicting with Regional races at other SCCA tracks in NEDiv scheduled for the same weekend Pocono made available to us. All of our PDXs lost significant money despite a major effort promoting and advertising these events and assistance from PDA.

Tri-Region is committed to a strong SCCA racing program at Pocono and is currently operating with a very good relationship with Pocono management. We hope to host at least one SCCA Regional weekend as well as a National weekend there for the foreseeable future and are very eager to be regular participants in the NARRC and new NJRRS series.

The loss of our NARRC/NJRRS event July 5 & 6 would be a critical blow to our plans. We have already written a check to Pocono committing to our 2008 events and are well along in planning the Double Regional.

I hope our fellow racing regions in NEDiv will think about the future when considering your Regional racing plans for this year. We have an approved SCCA road course at Pocono that is not going to be turned into a private club and expect to be racing there for many years to come.

Thanks,
George Bloeser
Tri-Region Chairman

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 10:10 PM

I'm just sitting here shaking my head. Have we not learned ANYTHING from the Mo-Hud debacle last year? How many times did we (the competitors) tell the organizers last year that we had very little interest in back-to-back-to-back-to-back weekends, especially one at a track that is so expensive to run? And now we're getting two events back-to-back ON THE SAME WEEKEND??? And, having to take ANOTHER day off of work to do it?

Who in the hell are these events being run for? The organizers or the racers?

Whatever. I wish NER luck, but I suggest they ask Mo-Hud to save them a seat at the credit agency...and one at the negotiating table next time they have to ask Tri-Regions for a favor.

Utterly amazing.
There are already NARRC races on the 1st, 3rd nd 4th weeknds of July. This HAS TO BE an either/or in terms of NARRC points. NO WAY they can both be NARRC doubles so this effectivly changes nothing IMHO in terms of the AMOUNT of races.

I am betting LRP will be a double NERRC and Pocono will be the double NARRC. That is unless the NARRC committee decides to swap the 'sanction' to LRP because they think it's better for the series.

alfa

02-17-2008, 10:10 PM

LRP = Let's Raise Prices.

gran racing

02-17-2008, 10:11 PM

:eek:

I sit here at the reply to thread screen in shock. I only hope there's much more to this and it won't hurt other regions. Right now I'm puzzled how it won't, but maybe I'm wrong.

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 10:21 PM

I see no way how two races so close in Division doesn't hurt both in terms of attendance.

NARRC guys would go to Pocono and NERRC guys would to LRP.

Except guess what? Most NERRC guys don't run LRP, they hang at NHIS...........and at $425 for the weekend, you take out another whole group of racers, no matter the 'value'.

Greg Amy

02-17-2008, 10:26 PM

Andy, you really are hung up on "that NARRC thing". Personally, I don't give a flying flub what series it is, no more than I care what region hosts the event. I look at the calendar, I check my availability and pocketbook, and choose whether or not I want to race that weekend. Whether it's NARRC, or NERRC, or NYSRRC, or ACBDEFG, or eeny-meeny-miney-moe has absolutely zero effect on whether I race. And, yes, that also applied back in 2006. If my schedule and preference is coincidental, I'll go. If not, I won't.

I race for fun, because I enjoy it. Not because I feel a driving compulsion to collect the whole set.

If this July 3/4/5 LRP event happens, that means there will be 5 local races scheduled in July. I will probably only attend two of them. At this point - early in the game, I admit - that will likely be Pocono and New Jersey, maybe the Glen if I'm feeling flush that month. That means I am planning to intentionally skip both NER (my home region) events; are both of them NARRC/NERRC/WHATEVER events? This is purely coincidental, as I *don't look at that kind of stuff* when I'm deciding on which events to attend. You look at my calendar and it says "SCCA - NHIS" or "SCCA Double - Pocono", not "SCCA, New England Region, NARRC Points, NHIS."

BTW, had LRP pre-scheduled that weekend, and Tri-Regions found they lost a prior Pocono date then decided to hold a replacement event on a Thursday and Friday prior to the LRP weekend, I'd be skipping the Pocono date. Yes, EVEN if it was a NARRC event (horrors!)

I don't know who thinks this is all a good idea. In my not-so-humble opinion, it's a terrible idea.

I suspect I'm not alone.

gran racing

02-17-2008, 10:39 PM

Exactly what Greg said.

Andy Bettencourt

02-17-2008, 10:46 PM

There is no debating that guys who are running for NARRC points will follow the NARRC sanction. I know I will. There are plenty of guys who just race where and when it is 'right' but the fact remains this will split the group of racers in an already watered-down market.

I think its short sighted to not be aware of who your customers are when you hold an 'competing' event.

It's just not a good idea.

(On edit: we could debate what makes up the 2 + 2 that equals 4...but we can all agree that this '4' ain't good for anyone.

dominojd

02-18-2008, 04:35 AM

What Dave just said.

Andy Bettencourt

02-18-2008, 09:28 AM

Come on Joe!. Aren't you running a NARRC schedule with some extras thrown in...just like me (IT-Fest, etc)?

I too, have no care in the world what REGION hosts an event...but I sure as hell care what series it is. You guys are kidding yourselves if you think there aren't guys who work their schedule around one - or both - of these series.

Yes, you guys choose the events that suit you, independent of the series. Plenty of us choose the events that suit us, INSIDE a series.

Ya'll have to understand all the work that has gone into a revamp of the NARRC this offseason. Rules, schedule, points, - all gone over and tweaked per driver request. The reason this issue is important to some of us is that this one issue has the ability to hurt two regions...one of the specific problems we *tried* to design out of the system this off-season.

Again, we can argue all day about WHAT pisses us off about two events on one day, but we sure as heck can agree that the result is less than desirable to us for a variety of reasons.

wdether

02-18-2008, 11:49 AM

Regardless on how you feel about running at Pocono, there is something to consider about the Pocono event. Track time. No track gives you less track time than Limerock. In addition to the double regional at Pocono there will be a Pro-IT race, adding 40 minutes to the total.

I think it is a lose-lose proposition to hold regional races at Limerock and Pocono on the same weekend.

JohnRW

02-18-2008, 12:30 PM

Re: holding concurrent events - you guys need to check the GCR and SCCA Operations Manual regarding distance restrictions for Regional races held within the same division. The rule used to be "200 miles", I think.

Unless that's changed, there probably isn't a chance in hell that you could shedule a Regional at Pocono and another one at LRP. Regional-National ? Yes. Regional-School ? Yes. Regional-Regional ? Nope.

Andy Bettencourt

02-18-2008, 12:31 PM

Food for thought

There is track time and there is track time 'value'. This LRP double should afford 80 minutes of track time to the racers whearas a 'satndard' double at Pocono only typically pays 74 minutes.

Now on a dollar per minute examination, it's different. As an example using last years Pocono NARRC race plus the projected Pro IT and an estimate on LRP times based on last year...

Pocono Double: 12 minute qual + 22 minute race x 2 = 74 minutes of track time for $310
Pro IT: 12 minute qual + 40 minute race = 52 minutes for $200
52+74=126 for $510
$510 / 126 = $4.05 per minute

LRP: True double so lets assume two singles put together
20 minute practice/qual + 20 minute race = 40 minutes x 2 days
(Estimate from reliable source) $425/80 = $5.31 per minute

Even at $300 for the Pro IT race, the Pocono event comes in at $4.84 per minute - with an opportunity to win it all back...at $200 it should be a GREAT series. http://www.njrrs.com/proit.html

Then you figure in series preference, track/facility preference, distance preference, etc and you get your answers.

dickita15

02-18-2008, 02:42 PM

JohnRW

02-18-2008, 02:45 PM

Dick - I think it was in the Ops Manual. Don't have one handy right now.

wdether

02-18-2008, 03:10 PM

John,
I see nothing in the GCR that restricts the scheduling of regional races.

I don't think there is anything in the GCR or the Ops manual about distance between races, but it just isn't a good idea to have regional races at Limerock and Pocono on the same weekend.

dickita15

02-18-2008, 03:18 PM

I don’t disagree with you Bill, particularly when you look at the rest of the July schedule.

dpc

02-18-2008, 07:11 PM

Has anyone actually heard or seen in writing what the actual start date is for this new surface, the start date might not interfere with the MoHud race. just asking.....Hope to see you all in NHMS in April. dave

rcc85

02-18-2008, 07:18 PM

I'm just looking forward to running an event at Pocono that should have warm weather. I want to support that weekend so Tri-Region will keep a regional on that date. The weather for the May double at Pocono almost always been cold and/or wet.

My only complaint is that the first race at NJMP is also in July and I really, really want to do that one as well (brand new track and about an hour and a half closer to me than any existing track).

If I do the Glen race (and I am thinking about it), I could blow my whole budget just in July!!

Too many races, so little money!!

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

dickita15

02-18-2008, 07:40 PM

JohnRW

02-18-2008, 08:13 PM

Found a copy of the Operations Manual amid the debris here.

Section 5.9 "Club Racing Schedule Procedures"

5.9.4: "Normally, no two race events will be held on the same day within a reasonable day's driving distance unless the Regions involved agree. (This does not apply to National races)"

Not quite what I remembered...and there is a certain ambiguity in that language...but you'd have a hard time constructing an argument that LRP <> The Poke is greater than a "reasonable day's driving distance".

Jeremy Billiel

02-18-2008, 08:18 PM

I wish Brian would come back on and give us an update. However, when push comes to shove I believe that the LRP event will still win. Regardless of what the fee is people will still pay and go to LRP just for the simple fact that there is new pavement. We still don't know what LRP gave us for options, but if the NER did this it would not be very friendly for sure.

RSTPerformance

02-18-2008, 08:44 PM

I have been away for a while, but still trying to check in once a week or so... Hope everyone is doing well!!!

This is certainly an interesting thread...

I can say that our entire family certainly has choosen races depending on the series, especially when we are actually running a series. To me it is far more important to race a "series event" than just any old race. Example: I probably would never run an event at NHIS (NHMS) unless it was a NARRC event or an enduro. However I do have to admit that this year we would like to do a Glenn race and a NJMP race and neither would have anything to do with a series, but the actual event itself.

As for NER scheduling a race in conflict with Pocono is not impressive at all (Unless it is a National!)and I certainly hope it does not effect the Pocono event, but I don't see how it wouldn't unless it is a National, maybe it is?

If NARRC changes the schedule "for the good of the series" then that group isn't any better than the NER group and it would really make me think twice about that series. I was very disapointed in NARRC last year and I was impressed with the changes. I hope that the changes they made keep it going in the correct direction and the series stays with the Pocono event.

For what it is worth, I wont be at Pocono or LRP in July but if it was in the budget I would be a Pocono.

Raymond "30+ now, and still can't spell" Blethen

Magical Trevor

02-18-2008, 09:27 PM

Looking at Lime Rock's published schedules (basically Pro and The Club), May 16-17 is open. NESCCA only has a National going on at Summit Saturday the 17th, and LRP probably only has car clubs those days; maybe dates could be swapped? This wouldn't have the potential for a double as July would, but a NARRC race would still be possible.
No idea about the school; maybe July 4 for the drivers that don't go to Pocono (if LRP would let us keep that after a move to May-what else are they gonna do with the unmuffled holiday?... unless they move their July 17 Test/Tune date there)...

TimM ITB

02-18-2008, 09:27 PM

Gone for a day and an WHOLE BUNCH of new input on this subject. But the facts still remain the same:

- LRP threw a monster monkey wrench into the 2008 season's scheduling - the NARRC series most prominently affected-and yet we are trying to appease LRP by "choosing" a date that is in conflict within our own series (NARRC)
- NER is the host region affected and NER needs to find a way to cope with the situation, taking the hit one way or the other, not Tri-Region

If it means that only one event can have the NARRC sanction, then give it to Tri-Region!! I know that this messes up the bonus points situation, but it will only be for THIS year. Potentially ruining your "brother" region's chances of success for a Regional weekend, and the hard feelings that will bring about..........THAT will last a long time.

I am confused as to the obsession with getting another date at LRP? Why do we have to do this? Is there a gun pointed at our heads for 2009 or beyond if we don't take a date in July for 2008? If this is accurate, couldn't we have a driver's school over 2 days and get people signed off quickly?? Hasn't this been done before? Would that not be a better use of the date in July that we "must" take? Maybe even draw a bunch more people to a school that, assuming they pass both days, means that they can go racing after just one weekend of school? I gotta believe that would be attractive to many people considering a school. And I absolutely believe that we need to find some creative alternative to this problem, rather than having 2 regional races in the same part of the world on the same weekend.

Tim M

JaxonMotorsports44

02-18-2008, 10:22 PM

ner88

02-18-2008, 10:37 PM

Does anyone have any insight on whether or not LRP would allow the SCCA to take the date in May? That sounds like a solution that keeps everyone happy, atleast TRI, NER, NARRC and prevents the conflict. No new pavement, but if the issue is "feelings" and what is best, this would be a good solution.
NER already has two races schedules for May.

JaxonMotorsports44

02-18-2008, 10:40 PM

The May event could be a joint MoHud/ NER event, since MoHud is also being impacted.

Andy Bettencourt

02-18-2008, 10:52 PM

If it means that only one event can have the NARRC sanction, then give it to Tri-Region!! I know that this messes up the bonus points situation, but it will only be for THIS year. Potentially ruining your "brother" region's chances of success for a Regional weekend, and the hard feelings that will bring about..........THAT will last a long time.
Tri-Region is on the NARRC schedule so unless the NARRC Committee does something drastic, I don't think there will be a change in the NARRC race.

I am confused as to the obsession with getting another date at LRP? Why do we have to do this? Is there a gun pointed at our heads for 2009 or beyond if we don't take a date in July for 2008? If this is accurate, couldn't we have a driver's school over 2 days and get people signed off quickly?? Hasn't this been done before? Would that not be a better use of the date in July that we "must" take? Maybe even draw a bunch more people to a school that, assuming they pass both days, means that they can go racing after just one weekend of school? I gotta believe that would be attractive to many people considering a school. And I absolutely believe that we need to find some creative alternative to this problem, rather than having 2 regional races in the same part of the world on the same weekend.

Tim M
That's the thing. Some of this is unknown. What will LRP do if we refuse the date? HOPEFULLY we will get the same 4 race consideration in 2009 (3 Regionals and a National) but...

Add to that if the SCCA doesn't take this date, the only regional at LRP this year will be the NARRC Runoffs...and aside from those that hate the track or have a hair across their rear about fees (wait until it's public what it will cost a region to run at NJMP...) 1 race in a year is just not enough for most people...me included. We should have at least 2 race weekends at each track per year IMHO.

Fact: The schools at LRP lose money. It would be dumb to do a school without a Regional that weekend. The NHIS school in April the last few years has been a 2 day school where everyone gets enough track time so most everyone passes.

If we could be guaranteed that we wouldn't 'suffer any concequences' for not taking the weekend, then bag it for sure. If we HAVE to take it...then we have to so as not to lose it. We need to preserve our dates until Palmer comes on line - especially given the sale of NHIS. We have 2 years of tip-toeing IMHO. Sucks.

If there are two events, I am convinced that they both fail. Some reasonable folks believe that the LRP event will draw plenty of cars because it could be a true double and is on new pavement. I see too many forces working against it however. That Pocono double with a Pro IT race should be awesome.

I just don't see a good solution. Hopefully, there will not be two events on the same weekend AND we will be able to get our 4 selections again next year. HOPEFULLY.

Andy Bettencourt

02-18-2008, 10:53 PM

Greg Amy

02-19-2008, 08:11 AM

What will LRP do if we refuse the date...If we HAVE to take it...then we have to so as not to lose it.
Then accept the date as a loss leader to retain it for subsequent years, and run it as a school. NER takes the financial hit as an investment towards the future, novices get the opportunity to attend a school - thereby increasing NER's market pool of potential entrants for the '08 season - and no "competitive conflicts" exist between supposedly-friendly regions hosting races on the same week(end) via targeting the same potential entrant pool.

If LRP is forcing SCCA to take a hit, financial or otherwise, because of their repaving schedule, it should be placed on the shoulders of the region(s) that happened to have scheduled during that timeframe.

To do otherwise is supremely selfish, rude, and self-centered. - GA

dickita15

02-19-2008, 08:25 AM

Uh okay Greg, no region is equipped to take the $50K hit that would mean. NER’s racing program, which is the largest in the Narrc area, can net $30K for the year if everything is perfect. I believe MoHud lost $30K on one event last year. The margins are not there. Be realistic.

gran racing

02-19-2008, 09:23 AM

Don't we have a thing called PDX? I think that I've heard something about it but rarely do I ever see it being utilized by regions. It's a great tool and we as a club who complain about a break in the "ladder" between Solo racing and wheel-to-wheel still don't take advantage of it nearly enough. I've looked at a few HPDE organizations that have LRP on their schedule and people are not even able to register until a bit later in the year. This is done because of an overwhelming response to the events.

Why don't we keep the LRP date, not run a race, and instead run a day or two day PDX? The region would gain some exposure for the secret club, potentially attract some new interest in SCCA wheel-to-wheel racing, and quite realistically make some money off it. If LRP charges SCCA a higher rate for race weekends than a HPDE, maybe go back to the track seeking an adjustment in pricing? Even if they still charge more, I just have to believe the numbers would still work out nicely.

PDXs take less resources, flaggers, ect. than a race weekend. Sounds like NER is ready to pony up the resources to run a race weekend, why not a PDX? O.k. Worst case - NER just isn't up for doing a PDX on that weekend for whatever reason. Partner-up with another club who is. SCCA, COMM, EMRA, Track Daze, ect.

Why not?

Greg Amy

02-19-2008, 09:42 AM

...no region is equipped to take the $50K hit...
Note that this is not a personal attack on you, Dick, but you're trying to support the idea that the only alternative for NER is to F**K-OVER another region so we can keep a date at LRP?!?!? Frankly, I find that absolutely effing absurd. No date at ANY track is worth that, and it blatantly illustrates the ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY that has resulted from the local SCCA regions trying to "compete" for events. It has evolved from putting on races to a political football for organizers jockeying for power, clearly in the face of the whole point of being there.

Hell, dude, I'll pay the effin entry fee to instruct if that's what it takes!!! But if our region goes forward with this, well, I don't know what I'm going to do long term, but you can rest assured I'll start paying attention to the hosting region for future events and avoid NER events, even if it means traveling more to race.

I will NOT be a willing participant of such actions. - GA

Andy Bettencourt

02-19-2008, 10:07 AM

Worst case scenario as I see it:

NER doesn't put on an event. LRP only gives SCCA 2 races in 2009 and beyond.
NHIS transitions into NHMP and decided to shut down but for two multi-million dollar weeks a year when NASCAR comes to town.
We realize that NJMP is going to be as expensive to run at as LRP.There is a real potential for us to have 2 at LRP, 2 at Pocono, however many at NJMP and one or two at WGI. Hmmmm. Palmer can't come fast enough, right? THAT is why the dates could be so important.

While I understand the initial venom Greg has for the issue, I think it's somewhat shortsighted. There ARE situations that people get put into, through actions outside their control, that have to be dealt with a certain way in order to retain harmony in the future. Anyone with kids knows these issues on an almost daily basis.

Do we all know that if we only have 2 races at LRP a year that MoHud program probably goes away completely? These other regions only have the LRP dates that NER 'gives' them. I doubt NER would give NYR the NARRC event if there was only one regional and the Runoffs. There is much more at stake here than watering down two events on one weekend. We should all get much more informed before we threaten a regional boycott...seriously.

Having said all that, it's why I have yet to come with a good solution. PDX's and schools lose money. Schools can be a loss leader - but that loss gets mitigated when a regional follows it the next day. Either would be financial suicide for anyone who tries it.

Yes, NER has to make this decision, but they didn't create the issue, they just have to react to it. NER 'controls' all the LRP dates so they must look much further than that weekend when making the decision...and that future isn't neccessarily just their own...

I guess what I am saying is that this decision is much bigger than one region screwing another in order to just have a race.

I hope that there is no competing event and we get to keep all our dates. THAT is the only way we all 'win' in this crappy situation.

I don't think anyone WANTS two events on the same weekend. We just all might want to understand why there MIGHT be.

gran racing

02-19-2008, 10:40 AM

I’m fully aware that competition schools lose money. For HPDEs / PDXs, if an organization loses money putting on a HPDE at Lime Rock something is not being done right. There plenty of organizations that run for-profit and Lime Rock is one of their big dates. This would allow the region to finally utilize the PDX tool more, help future racers get involved with our club, and not screw over THREE regions. (Tri-Region is a co-operative effort of the Northeast Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, and South Jersey regions of the SCCA.) If a region can’t be bothered with a PDX, maybe it could be sell the date to another club directly for the same price but still retain ownership of it for future years.

raffaelli

02-19-2008, 11:11 AM

Starts the day after Memorial Day

Ah, I was wondering how this would effect the Grand Am race. Seems like they will be the last on the old surface.

bg43wex

02-19-2008, 02:24 PM

I’m fully aware that competition schools lose money. For HPDEs / PDXs, if an organization loses money putting on a HPDE at Lime Rock something is not being done right. There plenty of organizations that run for-profit and Lime Rock is one of their big dates. This would allow the region to finally utilize the PDX tool more, help future racers get involved with our club, and not screw over THREE regions..

Dave the big difference is that SCCA buys unmuffeled race weekends not middle of the week muffled NON race days, the cost difference in rent is twice as much plus many add ons the track mandates.

If we could rent for a mark club price we could do PDX's for $200.00 ea also.

gran racing

02-19-2008, 02:55 PM

Hey, if SCCA regions want to compete against each other and in the end hurt multiple regions, then go for it. I for one think it would just be stupid.

HPDEs are at LRP are much more expensive than $200 and they sell out extremely quickly. Now with the Club taking many of the previous open days, the market for track days at LRP becomes even more valuable. So, how much would it cost for these dates and is there any opportunity to reduce the overall expenses?

On edit...I know, if I really wanted to be a part of this discussion I'd attend the meetings and quite possibly will if this is on an adjenda.

Andy Bettencourt

02-19-2008, 03:37 PM

Hey, if SCCA regions want to compete against each other and in the end hurt multiple regions, then go for it. I for one think it would just be stupid.

HPDEs are at LRP are much more expensive than $200 and they sell out extremely quickly. Now with the Club taking many of the previous open days, the market for track days at LRP becomes even more valuable. So, how much would it cost for these dates and is there any opportunity to reduce the overall expenses?

Dave,

I don't think anyone WANTS this. The problem here is that none of us have all the info. The isue is that NER may HAVE to take it. Knowing WHAT you DON'T know is key here.

It's possible that IMSA could come and take the date...hopefully on a one-time basis. HOPEFULLY.

gran racing

02-19-2008, 03:56 PM

Understood. :)

Greg Amy

02-19-2008, 04:05 PM

The isue is that NER may HAVE to take it.
Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

Andy Bettencourt

02-19-2008, 04:21 PM

Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

You are absolutly correct in that NER doesn't HAVE to do it. Nobody HAS to do anything. But not understanding the ramifications of such actions and then taking NO action COULD lead to a MUCH worse situation in the future. Sometimes everyone has to feel a little pain so that we can all prosper in the future. FACT.

I hope this isn't the case but it is certainly a possibility.

JaxonMotorsports44

02-19-2008, 04:34 PM

I think we are making a huge assumption that just because the SCCA and 'The Club' don't have the date booked, means it's open. I doubt it.

I wasnt assuming the date was OPEN, in terms of a vacant date, but rather, could there be flexibility among other organizations, LRP, "The Club" or whatever to make it work.

jjjanos

02-19-2008, 04:50 PM

Seems to me that there is a great deal of coulds and mights in this topic.

I would have thought that, before getting people worked into a frenzy, the region responsible for the crisis already would have had an answer regarding whether not using the date would be a permanent loss.

And while I agree with the cats that all of the fun is in the box, it seems to me that perhaps the solution might lie outside the box.

If keeping the date is a requirement to keep the date in the future, perhaps someting involving the Hill Climb community or the placement of cones to make LRP suitable for a Solo. I.e. some combination of Solo-1, Solo-2, PDX, road racing (obviously not all of them over the same weekend, but some out-of-the box combo.)

Hell, have the TSD guys finish a rally at LRP and sell freaking tickets for a giant NER Barbie Cue.

And I would disagree that a Region cannot take a $50K hit. A Region the size of NER should have an emergency fund on which to call in the event of.... an emergency. What a Region cannot do is take a hit like that year after year.

benspeed

02-19-2008, 05:35 PM

I read through the entire thread before offering up my opinion. The spirit of cooperation across the NEDIV has significantly improved - to place another date against Pocono is truly offensive considering the time, cost and effort the hard working folks at Tri-Region have put into this event. They have not had the opportunity for some time to book a race that will hopefully make a little money or break even - not put them in the debt column.

The fact that Management at LRP places SCCA in ackward positions on time, money and broken promises makes me think they have little of our interest at heart. In fact, they shouldn't consider screwing us because their paving schedule falls into the heart of the race season. This is yet another example of the poor managment of that track. If we elect not to take the alternative date because it is bad for our club and they retaliate by pulling dates in the future - are these the kind of people we should do business with?

Nobody has to take the LRP date. If our club leaders elect to do so that will demonstrate a major lapse in judgement and consideration for our club - yes, the people working to put on the Tri Region race are members - why would anybody consider screwing these people? They got their date for Pocono scheduled and the region who had LRP lost their dates - simple as that.

If anybody disagrees with the premis that two events on the same weekend is foolish, please speak up now. I believe that is a recipe for major financial trouble for two events - and Tri Region is in the worst position to endure that. If I was their Treasurer I would cancel Pocono in a LRP event is taken against their date. The financial risk is too great. I don't know what deposit they have with Pocono, I used to put out $10K if memory serves for NNJR. It would be cheaper to lose that then $30K or more if the event is a bust and everybody goes to LRP.

Show some consideration here - some real thoughtless shelfish BS is going on and it makes me quite pissed.

bg43wex

02-19-2008, 05:36 PM

Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

Greg are you saying take the date and eat 55 grand for the good of Tri Region?

Magical Trevor

02-19-2008, 05:43 PM

I think it's important to remember that this is all speculation-the most solid fact so far is still only that the track will be paved during June-that's it.
Granted, it is enough to throw us all into a panic (as the thread shows), but I hope and think there's more track-region communication forthcoming to make this simpler...

robits325is

02-19-2008, 05:48 PM

The true irony here is that we have been paying into the pavement fund for the past few seasons and now that we are actually going to get new pavement we won't be able to use the track.

dickita15

02-19-2008, 05:51 PM

Note that this is not a personal attack on you, Dick, but you're trying to support the idea that the only alternative for NER is to F**K-OVER another region so we can keep a date at LRP?!?!? Frankly, I find that absolutely effing absurd. No date at ANY track is worth that, and it blatantly illustrates the ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY that has resulted from the local SCCA regions trying to "compete" for events. It has evolved from putting on races to a political football for organizers jockeying for power, clearly in the face of the whole point of being there.

Hell, dude, I'll pay the effin entry fee to instruct if that's what it takes!!! But if our region goes forward with this, well, I don't know what I'm going to do long term, but you can rest assured I'll start paying attention to the hosting region for future events and avoid NER events, even if it means traveling more to race.

I will NOT be a willing participant of such actions. - GA
Greg, if that is what you infer is my opinion from what I have written you need to take a remedial reading course. I do not believe that I have said what I believe the region should do.
As stated by others this discussion is occurring without every option having been explored yet and it has some good points but because of the nature of it there are some things that are not yet known.

JohnRW

02-19-2008, 08:18 PM

lateapex911

02-19-2008, 08:38 PM

it's sad to see a place you have loved so much over the years turn their back on you and dick you over, and I'm afraid that everything I hear about lime Rock leaves me with that nasty taste in my mouth. I don't deal with the track directly, but I have talked with those that do, and their reports are always bleak. They seem to use our help in staffing the events, but turn a deaf ear on our offers to help run events more reasonably. Former staff members at Lime Rock have shaken their heads when i asked what it was like to work there. "You don't want to know", they say. granted, this is just hearsay and babble, but, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the management came to us and said, "Sorry, you refused your date last year, and you don't have that option left". Not one bit.

I agree with Ben that LRP is clearly interested in themselves first and foremost, and their management calls have been less than wise in the past.

So...if I were part of the NER team that deals with LRP, I'd get it in writing that if we turn the date down, we don't lose our option.

If we get that in contract form, then let it go.

I've been unaware of the proximity of the Pocono events in the past. I honestly wouldn't attend a Pocono event in past years as I hate the track, the surrounding area, the food at the track..and the staff I've dealt with were rude. But, that's a narrow view. Certainly holding competing regionals is very bad form.

I don't know what the NER financial situation is, nor do i know the profit/loss of a normal LRP event, but...IF NER isn't assured that they will keep their date option, it would appear that they have to buy the date, and that of course sucks, at least in terms of what we know today.

At that point, it looks like the date would have to be used in the best way, and I'd hope that could be a school/PDX, or perhaps a co event lapping/ test day with a vintage group to mitigate the loss.

I could see accepting a certain loss as acceptable to ensure the racing future of the club if the NER powers felt that the risk of losing dates was unacceptable.

Certainly the viability of the Palmer project comes into play here as well. If we feel confident that Palmer is a go and we will be on track on 2010, then telling LRP to pound sand might be sweet.

Greg Amy

02-19-2008, 09:31 PM

Greg are you saying take the date and eat 55 grand for the good of Tri Region?
No, Brian. I'm saying that NER needs to seriously consider THEIR impact on the OTHER region when THEY decide to accept a date in lieu of giving up the date for next year (assuming, of course, dem be da facts, which is all we can do since you've not bothered to tell us anything further). If NER didn't want to eat the $55k, they're perfectly at option of telling LRP "go pound sand". Then they (we) lose absolutely zero.

And, please: to say that NER will "lose $55k" (by, I assume, hosting a school or PDX instead of a Regional) is being disingenuous, at best, and outright lying, at worst. The cost to run the event, I assume, is $55k, but clearly there is revenue involved with a school and/or PDX; the true costs of showing consideration to a fellow region in the same division, one whom they'll have to work with in both the short- and long-term future, is FAR FAR less than the outright cost of renting the track.

So, you're trying to convince me that you have only two options? Either do it "all the way" or don't do it at all?

If one were to assume that NER is willing to have consideration for the positions and well-being of other regions, yet truly wish to retain that date with LRP, and instead of running a competing Regional choose to run a combined PDX/school - possibly in cahoots with an organization such as PDA/NASA *CERTAIN* to bring in enough street cars to nearly fill the paddock - and in the end accept the possibility of a reasonable loss to retain that date in future years, then the loss would be relatively negligible. Shit, man, you provide an unmuffled open track day to PDA/NASA and you'll have BMWs and Corvettes *out the ass* willing to pay you mega-bucks to go toodle around *along with* nearly a full crew of folks willing to corner-work!

However, if NER were to choose to tell Tri-Regions "F* you, we have to look out for ourselves", and instead run a competing Regional on the same weekend, I have absolutely no doubt that the event would show a positive cash flow, with competitors looking to run on the virgin track. But, I also suggest to you that the long-term damage to any remaining spirit of cooperation from other regions - and certainly any respect from competitors open-minded enough to recognize what's going on in that regard - will far exceed any relatively negligible long-term downsides.

You guys (I'm assuming you, Brian, are involved in the discussions) get to make the call. You have all the information. And, you know where the respondents to date stand. Rest assured your actions will be judged for a long time to come.

All you have to do is make the "right" decision.

Greg, if that is what you infer is my opinion from what I have written you need to take a remedial reading course.
Dick, I only read what I read. I hear you, but I infer from your words that you're trying to find excuses for this. I cannot agree. Though, I give you the "devil's advocate" benefit of the doubt, thus the comment that it's not a personal attack, only a disagreement with the stated premise.

there are some things that are not yet known.
Which, of course, adds to the frustration. Someone probably has a good idea of all the facts, assuming there are any not revealed, yet they're perfectly content to let us twist in the wind here online without providing them. Ask for feedback yet not provide all the facts? Would this be a game?

Hey, you know, I've made my position(S) clear. Absent any further facts I follow Ben's description: it would be foolish and offensive to host a full-up event at LRP in direct conflict with Tri-Region's prior-scheduled and -agreed Pocono event.

You guys asked for opinions; well, you got 'em. If you don't want 'em, don't ask for 'em. - GA

jjjanos

02-20-2008, 12:17 AM

Before you guys all spin off into a low earth orbit of ad hominem and back-stabbery, I'll refer you back to post # 57 in this thread, wherein it is written (cue celestial music):

"SCCA Operations Manual - Section 5.9 "Club Racing Schedule Procedures"

5.9.4: "Normally, no two race events will be held on the same day within a reasonable day's driving distance unless the Regions involved agree."

Soooo....who actually thinks that Tri-Region would agree to this ? Raise your mouse, please ! Only one vote per household !!!

Me thinks it won't matter what Tri-Region wants for a couple of reasons...

1. Our laws are the GCR and the By-Laws. The Operations Manual is a guide.

2. The first word in 5.9.4 - Normally. That makes following this section OPTIONAL.

National is more worried about getting its fees for sanctioning and insurance than about the health of any individual Region. If NER simply plays the "we'll permanently lose a date at LRP" card, then, for the "good" of the Club, National will ensure that both regions drop the soap.

RSTPerformance

02-20-2008, 12:36 AM

This is crazy, lets all stop backstabbing and work together. Can anyone actualy provide the real facts??? If not then pause the slamming until we get them. Everybody is making VERY GOOD points but unfortunatly nobody on this thread seems to have a clue, and if they do they are not sharring the info needed to create a feasable resolution.

This all reminds me of the questions I have had since I was old enough to realize we had different regions... why do we have them?

Lets not forget we are all members of SCCA no matter what region it is and we should all be working together not against each other.

Brian-

You started this so you obviosly have the inside line (not sure your position within the region anymore but...). I would hope that NER and yourself will post real facts and enough information for your members to make a rational opinion and give more reasonable feedback BEFORE you or anyone else running the region make any decissions in this sensitive matter. If you do it any other way then I certainly think it would be a huge political and business mistake.

Raymond Blethen

dickita15

02-20-2008, 07:44 AM

Again Greg I do not believe anywhere in my posts have I expressed an opinion. You said:

Then accept the date as a loss leader to retain it for subsequent years, and run it as a school. NER takes the financial hit as an investment towards the future, novices get the opportunity to attend a school - thereby increasing NER's market pool of potential entrants for the '08 season - and no "competitive conflicts" exist between supposedly-friendly regions hosting races on the same week(end) via targeting the same potential entrant pool.

If LRP is forcing SCCA to take a hit, financial or otherwise, because of their repaving schedule, it should be placed on the shoulders of the region(s) that happened to have scheduled during that timeframe.

To do otherwise is supremely selfish, rude, and self-centered. - GA

Following that suggestion would cost NER about 50K. I would estimate 85K in expenses and 30-35k in income.
This is a developing situation and no all the facts are not know but if you feel you do not have enough information to form a rational opinion then you don’t have to play the “game”. Apparently your choice is to be insulting.

Greg Amy

02-20-2008, 08:32 AM

Apparently your choice is to be insulting.
Wait a sec: in what way am I being "insulting" to you, Dick?

By saying it would be rude and self-centered for NER to schedule a date on top of Tri-Region's already-established date? So, you're telling me you disagree with that?

By writing I disagree with a premise that it's wrong to do this? So, you disagree with this?

What personal attacks? What slamming? Disagreeing - and specifically stating the reasons why - is a personal attack? I don't see any place where I've called anybody names, referring specifically to actions taken, and I've very simply - and passionately - made clear that these options are, in very real terms, a jerk-ass thing to do. Hell, I don't even know who gets to make the final decisions; if that's you, then you have every right to accept my rants as directed at you. But if not, why take offense because I may disagree with you?

I do not believe anywhere in my posts have I expressed an opinionThen how can you - or anyone else, really, in this conversation stream - POSSIBLY take personal offense from anything I've written??

Whatever, dude. Frankly, I personally find it insulting that this option is even on the table. To me the "right" answer is clear; and, honestly, if (collective) you cannot see this then debating the whole issue is, well, pointless.

As The Bettencourt would say: Enjoy your conversation; I'm "out". - GA

dickita15

02-20-2008, 08:58 AM

Greg, I am going to type slowly to make sure I am understood.:D
I do not think you have attacked me personally and I have no problem personally with the minor exception of you jumping to the conclusion I had voiced an opinion, we are fine.
I do think you are being extremely insulting to the region.
First you seem to assume that NER would choose to “screw” another region casually.
You state that competition between the regions is bad and we should all work together.
You then say if there is a financial hit because of the LRP situation it is NER’s and NER’s problem alone.
No offence to Tri Region, they are doing the best they can, but every year they need favors to survive as a racing region. I don’t see them in a position to give them.
You say the solution is obvious with the facts you know then say if you don’t have all the facts it is “our” fault.
I did not start this thread and I am not sure I would have but the kind of attitude you exhibit in this thread is the reason that many believe these types of forums don’t work for these kinds of discussions.
Greg, I love ya man, but I think in this thread you have been over the top.

lateapex911

02-20-2008, 10:22 AM

Guys, lot's of things we don't know here.

Brian, contrary to opinions, probably has told us everything he knows. Trust me, Lime Rock will tell us when they are good and gash darn ready, and not a minute sooner. i am sure we will be the LAST to know. They are hedging their bets, playing their hand close, and they are beholden to ALMS, NASCAR and their LRP club members first, and everything else second. So let's not jump on Brian for holding information back.

Second, most of us don't know the costs and revenues involved in an event at LRP. Lots of good suggestions here, but some might not apply, because LRP charges NER differently than anyone else for certain dates. (this is one of the big bucks unmuffled weekend dates we're discussing). From my understanding, LRP charges for things that are completely un-needed, but if you want the date, you gotta take 'em. From my digging around, not other track in the nation charges as much for so little to SCCA regions.

So, the region is tossing out ideas, getting feedback, and considering it's options.

Raymond, there are lots of reasons for having regions, but basically, the country is too large to be managed effectively by National. And different areas of the country have differing needs. The flexibility afforded by regional management ensures that those needs are considered.... kind of a for the members/by the members method. Small regions are great because they cater to the needs of their members, but don't have the financial clout to get some things done. Big regions have the bucks, but sometimes they have to do things that don't please all the members. Each area has the ability to adjust the size to something that works for them. Times change however, and we've seen that when Lime Rock track rent goes from 22k to 55k (!), smaller regions like Mohud can get wiped out in one poorly attended event. As the business models change, so must the regions.

Tkczecheredflag

02-20-2008, 10:42 AM

I've been watching this thread from the "Paddock" and I would like to raise one question.

Do we have any leverage that we are overlooking?

Keeping in mind that I believe LRP is watching this thread I will offer this thought anyway.

The only leverage that I think we have is our "volunteerism" - The heart and soul of our great club. Why can't we have all of our Volunteer Officials (T&S, F&C, Tech) show up as we usually do, to a LRP "big money" event, and on the day of the big race refuse to take "control" of the track - stopping the event. Sort of a "Writers Guild" approach. If we (SCCA) loose, you (LRP) loose too

I don't know how that effects our relationship with the Sanctioning bodies but it's a thought. If LRP wants the benefits that our club offers for their events, we are suggesting a little "give and take" - Not just "take."

Is this thinking absurd? It's the best I can come with amist all the "caution laps, red flags and black flag all " we're running on this thread.

By the way - I would do it big, newspaper reporters, TV stations, Magazine people pickett lines with signs - exposing the Demon- a major Connecticut event.

gran racing

02-20-2008, 10:49 AM

Unfortunately that would hurt a lot more than just LRP...all the people who spend big bucks to attend, kids (myself included), sponsors, and the list goes on.

Tkczecheredflag

02-20-2008, 11:32 AM

Unfortunately that would hurt a lot more than just LRP...all the people who spend big bucks to attend, kids (myself included), sponsors, and the list goes on.
Your missing my point - LRP is in control of "who" looses "what" not us - Right?. All they have to do is insure "smooth sailing" is not take away our track dates. If we get our track dates, they get the voulunteers - please don't take the role of the "bad guy" Dave. The DMV boys would shut that place down so fast without flaggers, it would make Chip Ganassi head spin.

I suspect if the Voulnteers didn't take control of the track on Memorial Day weekend, LRP might want to re-think their position with us - No???

Are we obligated to Staff their facility on Memorial Day? Can't we show up on Friday and get a little "blue smoke flu" on Saturday or Monday. There is "power in numbers."

What am I missing?

What does CCR say? "I see a bad moon rising".

Andy Bettencourt

02-20-2008, 11:48 AM

Tkczecheredflag

02-20-2008, 12:55 PM

Tim,

The problem as I see it is that the 'Pro' events are presitgeous for workers to work. Like us racers, some races are more attractive. We are already light for committments for the Memorial Day weekend because of the GAC race at LRP.

I don't feel the workers will 'unionize' enough to pull something like that off - even if I did think it was a good idea...and it's not just workers from one region, it would have to be workers from ALL of them.

Best case? LRP doesn't hurt us next year for not taking this date, the Pocono event is a success and nobody loses money.

I understand and I am not trying to make trouble - I just want to make sure that ALL of our strenghts and resources are being looked at carefully - and that things are equitable for ALL concerned. I'm not trying to hurt anyone, just trying to embellish our mutual relationship - My way of saying, "we need each other, right?" If LRP doesn't see it that way then maybe a strong action is in order.

Re: GAC at LRP - I can only think that if there was incentive (so much for volunteerism) for volunteers to come to NHMS for Memorial Day it might take care of the "committment" issue, and might leave Skip holding his "skippy."

Hey - we have RAL, we could have RAS (race against skippy) - I bet I could find some sponsors for that effort - So we could pay our volunteers ( I know, oxymoron with the emphasis in bold) - a small gesture but it could be a fun theme. We could get dressed up in costume (like Cheap Date) - I would dress up like an "older grey haired guy looking for his roots." I would also be willing to kick in extra money for the workers fund.

Okay - Enough - I'm finished.

Dave Patten

02-20-2008, 03:44 PM

Tim,
As idealistic as your “pro race workers strike” sounds, what is to be gained for those striking? What hardships are the workers enduring that call for such actions? There are none so why would or should they strike? If anything the workers would risk loosing what they enjoy most, being part of road racing at it highest level.

Regarding the LRP July 4th date:
I believe this date was discussed as a possible SCCA race date at LRP before the Pocono date was confirmed. I may be wrong in my recollections of the discussions at the November Road Race Scheduling meeting held at the Northeast Division Mini-Con Meeting back in November. Once the Pocono date was confirmed the LRP date was pulled from consideration. Again, as I remember, the dates for SCCA at LRP were not available until the day or two prior to this scheduling meeting making it very hard to discuss a viable schedule prior to the meeting.

Given the added races in South Jersey and ultimately the conflicting Double Regional at Pocono, taking the July 3, 4 & 5 days at LRP as unmuffled, $26K/day race days doesn’t make economic sense to me. At other rates, for other uses maybe, but not as a race weekend.

I’d say, thanks for the offer, but it comes too late for NER/MoHud to fully utilize the dates to replace those lost in June. We would certainly entertain adding a July 4th race weekend to our normally scheduled June dates if that opportunity exists for 2009, but for 2008 it just isn’t feasible.

StephF

02-20-2008, 04:24 PM

I've just finished wading through this thread, and was going to stay out of this fur fest.....but......
Tim, I love you man, but I really think a 'strike' would be bad for SCCA, no matter how carefully thought it it appeared to be.
It very likely wouldn't affect LRP at all, and could possibly endanger participants.
The way I see it, if that was attempted, the track would be on the horn pulling in everyone who ever walked in the gate and flagged or corner (or NOT!) and they would be out there within 20 minutes. The most we could do to them would be to delay things and really piss them off.
Don't forget, they have had a long relationship with SBRS racing school....and there would be plenty of folks from the school, or past students who would pop in to work a day for whatever compensation they were promised.
THEN.......the crap would fly for SCCA.
So no, no 'leverage' there for whatever it's worth. Just the potential to really shoot ourselves in the foot.:(

lateapex911

02-20-2008, 07:40 PM

dpc

02-20-2008, 07:42 PM

So Tim, are you going to man the pickett line at registration? What will your sign say. dave

Magical Trevor

02-20-2008, 08:18 PM

That's always been the problem with negotiating with lime Rock, from what I've heard. On one hand, we think we hold some cards because we staff events. But..."we" don't. The workers from 4 or 5 regions staff the events. Many of those workers desire to do the pro events far more than they desire to do the SCCA regional event. I seem to recall that there is actually a "pecking order" to determine who gets to staff the "glory" events. Asking them to stand down would require them to give up their favorite event, AND asking 4 regions workers to support the desires of ONE region. (Technically we might see it as a blow to LRP for the good of us ALL, but it won't be seen that way by those involved.)

Secondly, I seem to recall LRP starting a "club" of paid flaggers...I think they need to have just such a staff if they expect to man the track for all the LRP club track days they will be having, and THOSE folks are probably the highest on the list when it comes to decide who "gets" to work the big events. Of course, they won't be nearly as well trained and talented as "our" guys, but, LRP will probably utilize some of "our" guys in key roles. but don't bet they wouldn't go to "lan B" in a second, as Steph points out.

Sorry Tim, not trying to rain on your parade,......
I don't know how it was 15 or more years ago, but there is no "pecking order" for pro events now-flag chiefs take what help they can get, be it a school or a huge ALMS date.
Also, there are times (car clubs, and the new Club at Lime Rock Park) where the track pays "employed flaggers" to work corners; however, more than half of these are SCCA members that normally volunteer for the same occupation. If they were dedicated to the cause of the SCCA/region....
But anyway, I don't think Tim's idea would work too well-it's nice to think that members would have that kind of power, but they would still all be replaceable in one way or another.
Good "out of the box thinking" though.

Tkczecheredflag

02-20-2008, 10:35 PM

Steph - Please understand that I am only trying to think "outside the box" in an effort to make sure that people who know a hell of a lot more than I do, are also thinking outside the box. I am not saying that a Strike is the answer - I posed it as a question to consider.

I am not sure I follow Dave P's thinking - I thought we were all part of the same club. If some sort of "injustice" was being imposed on our volunteers, the people who give so freely of themselves, and I was asked to take an "action" on their behalf, I wouildn't have to think more than 1/100th of a second to assist them. Keep in mind that my roots in the great club are in F&C.

Again I'll ask my question - Are we using all our strenghts and resources? Are the powers to be thinking outside the box on this issue?

Dave Patten

02-21-2008, 09:29 AM

Tim,
I used to think the same thing, that "we" are all part of the same club and should work in concert with one another for the good of all, but things have recently happened that confirmed to me that this may not be broadly held as true for all SCCA members. Enough so that it has somewhat changed that opinion for me.

Andy B raised the concern that the NER Regional on Memorial Day at NHMS could be hard to staff being against the GrandAm race at LRP. That date has never been discussed at NER Road Racing Board meetings with significant concern, but the NHMS Double Regional on July 12 & 13 was under serious discussion of being dropped from the NER schedule because of potential staffing shortfalls.

I sat in on the December 2007(?) NER Club Racing Board meeting and listened to concerns that the July 2008 NHMS Regional race might not be able to be staffed adequately because workers would be at LRP for the ALMS race. It was discussed that the NHMS Regional should be cancelled rather than running a risk of not being able to race due to a flagger shortage. There was serious consideration to cancelling this date before it was eventually left on the NER schedule.

Tim, I guess the actual vocalization at that meeting, that enough flaggers would not support the Region's event and work for ALMS instead, enough in fact to put the operation of the NER Regional at risk, is what has given me this revised veiwpoint.

Please don't take this as an attack on flaggers, drivers are equally as guilty of pursueing personal choices of where to place there efforts. I myself raced at only 2 NER events last year. I focussed on National races in GTL across the division, which took me away from my home region's events that I have supported for nearly 2 decades.

Some drivers watch the weather forecast and bail at the last minute if the weather looks iffy. I changed my goals and started racing outside of my Region's events. We are not all lily white on giving 100% support of our Region's or even SCCA's events.

Regarding the Pocono/LRP date conflicts or other NER scheduling/admin type issues, it's all fine and dandy that folks express concerns here on this and other message boards, but the NER Club Racing Board Chairman, Serge Lentz, his Assistants, Jerry Rigoli and Paul Faford and NER's RE Chris Franson should be contatcted directly to assure your veiwpoint is heard. This needs to be done before the March NeDiv Roundtable Meeting 3/14-16/2008 where the Division schedule will be finalized.

I'll make it easy, here are their e-mail addresses:

Chris Franson, NER RE - [email protected] ([email protected])
Serge Lentz, NER CRB Chair - [email protected]
Jerry Rigoli, NER CRB Assist Chair - [email protected]
Paul Faford, NER CRB Assist Chair - [email protected]

Also I encourage NER drivers to attend the NER CRB meetings to see the process first hand and to participate in it.
([email protected])

Tkczecheredflag

02-21-2008, 09:47 AM

Dave - Very helpful information for me - thanks.

Tkczecheredflag

02-21-2008, 10:08 AM

So Tim, are you going to man the pickett line at registration? What will your sign say. dave

Lime Rock Park
Celebrating 51 years of Racing

SCCA
We've supported you for all of them.
April 8, 1957

Is there an Elephant in the House?
Don't forget us NOW!

StephF

02-21-2008, 11:29 AM

A couple of random thoughts here...It's been a few years since I was inside at LRP, so things may be completely different now.
That being said, I am guessing we are being offered the July 4th weekend so that the track can try to have some sort of spectator event. They don't have to pay us to be there, we pay them. They can try to get a few bucks coming in through the gate. I think that is the only reason we were approached.
Is there any way we could opt to perhaps switch that weekend with any club that is racing later in the season instead? It may end up being a restricted, muffled event though.
Obviously, some careful negotiating would be in order here, both with Skip and any other clubs.

A late season restricted regional/enduro, etc would possibly pull in enough entrants to make it work IF we could negotiate a better rental rate from Skip for the event. Ideally, it would be something with tons of track time. If there was any way to make the event creative, and perhaps run in conjunction with a rally too, that might help offset expenses.

I think that the bottom line will be that we need to find someone who could develop a relationship with Skip so that we could actually open a dialogue with him. We need to have a good, working relationship with him instead of being outside looking in, like we are now.

Maybe look for someone who has been a student of his in the past who is now SCCA, and can hopefully bridge the growing divide.

I don't think Skip is anti-SCCA. I don't think he's anti any racing. He's trying to make a living from one venue now.
I heard he was fed the ideas of charging moremoremore by someone who had zero racing background, and had a high powered businessman approach to things, (probably complete with Powerpoint presentations) and he basically convinced him that he was grossly undercharging for his product.
They raised their rates.
Unfortunately, we paid. And it proved this guy right.
And now, to make it go back will be exteremly difficult.
So....look for an alternative date, and someone who can be an ambassador.

Rabbit05

02-21-2008, 01:06 PM

Lime Rock Park

Celebrating 51 years of Racing

SCCA
We've supported you for all of them.
April 8, 1957

Is there an Elephant in the House?
Don't forget us NOW!

Tim,
I don't know about anyone else...but I LIKE your sign ...:023:

- John

wepsbee

02-26-2008, 02:48 PM

JLawton

02-26-2008, 02:59 PM

I did not get a chance to read all 11 pages but the beginning posts indicate a question about needing the school in June. Both my sister and myself anticipate going to both the schools at NHIS in Apr and the school at LRP. So I hope it is not canceled.

That has been my concern about possibly losing the school. There maybe a few people who have to wait until the WGI school.

Dan, there are times where drivers get signed off at the NHIS school because of all the track time you get. Make sure you come with the car prepped 10/10ths and with some crew help. Missing a session or two can really hurt your chances of getting signed off. Hunt us down at the track. We'll be in the north garages on the north side.

gran racing

02-26-2008, 03:09 PM

with the car prepped 10/10ths

Dan - meaning safety, won't break down, have car already inspected / log book. Jeff's not talking about all of the go-fast parts.

wepsbee

02-26-2008, 03:39 PM

I already have my license and 2 whole race events under my belt from last year. However I am smart enough to know that I know very little about racing. I want track time and instruction.My sister has just purchased a "race ready" car which should need little prep. She of course just has her novice permit. We will have some crew with experience to help us out at the school events. Having said that any more info from you vets would be appreciated!!

JLawton

02-26-2008, 04:13 PM

Dan - meaning safety, won't break down, have car already inspected / log book. Jeff's not talking about all of the go-fast parts.

Yea, what he said!!

.My sister has just purchased a "race ready" car

No such thing.... :)

What kind of car does she have?
If you both have been signed off, I wouldn't worry about the June school. The best way to get experience is to go racing!!

wepsbee

02-26-2008, 04:24 PM

We both are driving Ford Escort GT's. We are in it for the fun. Her car has been raced in the area for a number of years by Dave Ford. We have to upgrade the roll cage and add new harness and other than regular maintenance it should be ready for school. I do have my regular license but she just has her novice permit. Racing is a great teacher but if you are doing something wrong you will never know unless someone tells you, that is why I would like more instruction at a school.

lateapex911

02-26-2008, 05:46 PM

If the car can make sound, consider running a track day with a group like Ian Prout's Sports Car Driver Association. (SCDA).

Lots of us are instructors, and we can certainly tailor the day to the level you or you sister needs. Dave Gran, myself, and others might be able to set it up. I know Dave and I are doing Watkins Glen in April.

wepsbee

02-26-2008, 06:20 PM

That sounds like a plan. What event are you attending at WGI in Apr?

gran racing

02-27-2008, 09:24 AM

The HPDE on April 28th & 29th is run by SCDA. Tons of track time, very well run, and just a great time. They are also running a HPDE at Lime Rock on 4/10 which I'm planning on attending. I have a passenger seat in my Prelude if you feel like going for a ride and compare how we approach the track.

wepsbee

02-27-2008, 12:45 PM

That would be great but I am attending the school at NHIS that weekend. I will for sure look into the SCDA events. Thanks

Andy Bettencourt

03-06-2008, 05:55 PM

I learned yesterday that LRP has sold the date to another group. None of the SCCA regions decided to take the date.

LRP is interested in keeping SCCA as part of their schedule and will be offering them the same amount of dates next year as they did this year.

lateapex911

03-06-2008, 08:16 PM

Well, that seems to be the best of all answers. Glad to hear we still have a place in their heart.

Greg Amy

03-06-2008, 09:23 PM

My reaction is a VERY big sigh of relief...

dominojd

03-07-2008, 08:05 AM

Aww crap this place has been so slow now there is nothing left to bitch about.

Oh yeah new bitch Where's my NARRC check? :shrug:

DaveBrooks

03-09-2008, 10:31 PM

Hey Dan the car is a good solid fun car. I drove it with Dave at his last race he did in 06. We ran the enduro at watkins glen.Good luck. See ya at th track.

RSTPerformance

03-11-2008, 10:43 PM

raffaelli

03-20-2008, 08:44 AM

Any idea what the two new configurations are?

http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/clubrace.html#repaving

Andy Bettencourt

03-20-2008, 08:55 AM

Any idea what the two new configurations are?

http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/clubrace.html#repaving

Yes. Skip has said that he will be 'squaring off' some of the faster corners so that the members have less of an 'opportunity' to wreck their high dollar stuff. This will be done 'inside' the current config.

The original configuration will be available as well.

raffaelli

03-20-2008, 09:05 AM

lateapex911

03-20-2008, 01:44 PM

Ah, I got all excited that the part of the track planned in the early years which extends into the woods outside Big Bend was actually going to happen! (the sounds of a deflating balloon comes to mind...)

I doubt that, no matter how much money was available, that the "Mountain circuit" part of the track could ever be built, if only because the town will never approve such use.

Now, fold into the equation the cost vs profit, and the picture gets darker.

My guess is that the downhill will have a "chicane" to the inside, as will West Bend, and the uphill chicane will be in play for "Club" days.

Even if I were rich, I tend to doubt that I'd fork over my money to run that configuration. I could be wrong, so I'll wait and see, but I'm not optimistic that the "new" tracks going to leap forward in the "dying to drive it" category for me.

Andy Bettencourt

03-20-2008, 02:28 PM

I don't think you will even have a chance to run the 'club' course anyway Jake.

kennyr7

03-21-2008, 01:02 AM

Dave Zaslow

03-21-2008, 06:13 AM

Does anyone know if the new pit-in at West Bend will be used for all events?

DZ

Andy Bettencourt

03-21-2008, 08:11 AM

I found the following on the Production forum. If true, this is truly sickening.
http://www.timlinerud.com/racing/Lime_Rock/Lime_Rock_Track_Changes-1.pdf (http://www.timlinerud.com/racing/Lime_Rock/Lime_Rock_Track_Changes-1.pdf)
_________________

Why is it sickening? It's not a track for us, it's for the members. The traditional configuration will remain.

lateapex911

03-21-2008, 08:43 AM

Very interesting...the area under the bridge could get pretty tight (As opposed to now, where there's a "little " room if things get congested..I know I've taken to the grass to avoid wrecks on the outer paed surface) if they put a divider wall up to separate the pit road from the track. That could become a track blockage issue.

In other spots the track is actually wider, like No Name straight. Looks like the chicane is gone in the uphill. I wonder which config will be used for Pro events, or some combination? That chicane leading onto the No Name looks REALLY tight...somehow I can't see ALMS digging that.

It also look WAY safer for those driving the traditional config, with paved runoffs on the inside and outside of the downhill, and lots more room at West bend.

Greg Amy

03-21-2008, 08:43 AM

Greg Amy

03-21-2008, 08:47 AM

Does anyone know if the new pit-in at West Bend will be used for all events?
I don't think they can, Dave; it'll kill lower part of the B Paddock. Don't think we'd have enough space for the bigger events, or for "multiple race" pro weekends...

On Edit: It is listed as "New Pit Entrance Road", with a "new three row tire barrier" outside of it...hmmm, wonder how that'll affect B-paddock space...However, it pulls the tires barriers WAY back for those that end up spinning to the inside when the blow the Downhill...

There are a LOT of revelations in this design, the more I look, the more I like...

lateapex911

03-21-2008, 09:08 AM

That "LRP Club Only" re-config pretty much addresses my safety concerns with the track -- let's face it, the place is pretty damn intolerant of even relatively minor mistakes -- but it completely destroys the character of the track and turns it into a silly "let's pretend we're racers" track.

Absolutely PERFECT for the LRP Club members...

Notice the outside of the Downhill is getting asphalt paving with a nice concrete curb on the outside...? And the Infield Entrance is getting moved back quite a way to accommodate the West Bend Chicane...? And the Swap outside the Left Hander is getting paved...? And West Bend is getting a nice, relatively-wide runoff area? And the Uphill Chicane is getting a whole new entry...?

I'd be surprised if the infeild bridge at the exit of West bend is being moved. It appears that it's in the same position as now. (I'll recheck though) And the swamp at the bottom of the spectator hill has "New improved runoff area-grass", not pavement. (Except for the area where the new club course leaves tangently, and crosses a semi swampy area.) The downhill looks WAY safer.

Greg Amy

03-21-2008, 09:14 AM

Jake, you're right on the lefty, I missed the color diff. However, the Bridge will HAVE to be moved/replaced; the new "pit-in" makes the track significantly wider. Though, based on its relationship to the "Existing Bituminous Drive" it looks to not be moved, just replaced with something wider...what I DON'T see here is how the trafic will be re-routed to the Bridge. The entire area between the registration shack and the bridge is replaced with runoff and a spectator mound. The tree line on the left (as you're driving in) is still there, with no notation on how to get from the reg shack area to the bridge. The transporter access road is still there, and improved, but we can't use that for regular infield access (I remember when we race(d) Nelson and Hallet, how we had to plan our lunch/parts runs carefully, lest we get stuck outside the track watching our race group running...)

For us, the track will be faster. Not only because of the pavement change, but also because of the improvements in runoff safety. If you were to make these proposed changes - but not repave - I'd suggest just the knowledge that mistakes won't be so painful would improve lap times. Based on my data aq, I know that if I weren't paying the tab for the accidents I could pick up another 1/2 to 3/4 second on average... - GA

gran racing

03-21-2008, 09:20 AM

I'd suggest just the knowledge that mistakes won't be so painful would improve lap times.

Oh, without a doubt. I know it would have an impact on how I'd approach it.

lateapex911

03-21-2008, 09:28 AM

True...I know West Bend always reminds me of my off there.
Looks like the reg. shack is nearly on the track now! (And the guard building looks to be in an embankemnt? I think the bridge thing and the outfield access were "In discussion" when Wilson drew this plan up. It will be very interesting to see the final result.
It will easily be a second to 2 seconds faster on the "Classic Course", as it looks like certain areas will carry more speed because of the new club course, the new pavement, and the "confidence factor" you guys mentioned.

It sure won't "look" the same...
Where is the new club house going? I remember there was talk of it being between the uphill and West Bend, with it's own pit entrance, but this plan seems to show thats not the case. That means "B" paddock. One thing is for sure, paddock space is getting tight. i wonder what the plan is on that?

tdw6974

03-21-2008, 09:42 AM

Hmmm I got an Email today offering an "Associate Membership" 27,500 of course reduced benefits

Andy Bettencourt

03-21-2008, 09:47 AM

They are widening the bridge base to accomodate.

raffaelli

03-21-2008, 05:03 PM

Is the existing chicane at the top of the uphill gone? If so, how much air to you think that ALMS will get as they will be the first on the track?:happy204:

lateapex911

03-21-2008, 06:06 PM

Thats what I was thinking, and I imagine they will run a hybrid version of the track...part "Classic" part "club". The plans have instructions to cut and remove the old chicane.

I hope they only "club" the uphill.....

dickita15

03-22-2008, 07:07 AM

I hope they only "club" the uphill.....

Oh I like that.
Historic Lime Rock Park gets Clubbed. :happy204:

kennyr7

03-22-2008, 04:25 PM

Why is it sickening? It's not a track for us, it's for the members. The traditional configuration will remain.

Andy,

It is sickening because it completely destroys the character of a track that you, I and many others know and love.

Do you really believe that we will still be allowed to run the old configuration? What if the insurance company says that we have to run the "safer" configuration, or charges a higher premium for the old configuration? I don't believe that SCCA (or anyone else) can run the Glen w/o using the inner loop.

Before you guys pour cold water on the idea that we will be dumbed down to the new configuration, read what Mike Rand said on Apexspeed...

Here's a heads up guys, and a contest.
New York Region, the region who puts the NARRC Runoffs on, are thinking about running this new abomination in September for the 2008 Regional season finale.
We collectively need to lobby long and loud for one last great blast of the NARRCOFFS on the traditional, historical, unadulerated, unemasculated classic Lime Rock Park.
I am now proposing a contest.
This contest has no prize or glory.
The contest is to be the......
"Name the Newest Track in Northwest Connecticut" contest.
Because it sure as hell won't be Lime Rock Park to anyone who ever raced there before.......

Andy Bettencourt

03-22-2008, 05:29 PM

I guess you can ask anyone who is freaking out about this stuff if they have sat in on one of Skip's presentations to the club members or anyone who has talked with LRP's CEO.

I have. The information I have posted has come from LRP to me directly. What they have communicated to the Regions - I do not know.

Just because they are ADDING track, doesn't mean we won't be using the old one. The purpose of the new sections is to provide a slower and safer config for their members in their street cars. They will also have access to the traditional config should they desire.

There are no guarantees, but this is the info as I have it today.

Andy Bettencourt

03-22-2008, 06:32 PM

Just to add - you are correct in saying that if we are forced to run the new config, I see no reason to ever go back.

But again, that is not the info I have received. Fingers crossed and knocking on wood!

JaxonMotorsports44

03-22-2008, 10:06 PM

Was it the 2007 July race that SCCA had paddock parking up top?? If I recall it was that weekend because all the ALMS teams were there for testing/ practice before the weekend. So I am wondering if the "C" paddock will now become a regular part of the paddock parking options with the B paddock being reduced in size due to the changes.

I like the pavement to the outside of the down hill and I too agree that will provide drivers with additional confidence going down the hill. Could make for some NASCAR-esque type driving like at Watkins Glen (turn 1), 4 wide with cars going to the paved area drivers left to make those passes stick.

I am all for safety so it seems like a good move, but dang it takes some of the "tuck em and go" out of diving the downhill.

16v

03-22-2008, 11:38 PM

harumph... the sight lines for photos of the downhill>front straight are gone. There goes "The spin of the month" series :017:

kennyr7

03-23-2008, 04:23 PM

raffaelli

03-23-2008, 11:48 PM

I spent a few minutes looking at the plan.

It does not give an indication that the non-modified areas will be repaved. In fact, the concrete is still shown.

The grade outside the left hander is flattened. Notes indicate that this area needs drainage improvement. My guess it that this is a recommendation and will not be done.

Seems like there may be new bumps added at the end of the esses, on no name and at the bottom of the uphill.

I wonder if there will be enough sight line to the flag station at the uphill on the new track. The grade is a severe slope with a sharp edge in the inside of the new uphill turn. I am not sure you can see flags until you are at the rumble strip.

Seems like there may be new bumps added at the bottom of the uphill just prior to the apex where the new paving will be over old.

The grade inside no name is becoming less steep for spectators.

The plan does not indicate any grade change to the existing uphill.

Looks like two more bumps on the back straight where the new paving is over old.

The dirt barrier outside west bend is gone.

The transporters are going to have a bumpy uneven ride over two sets of curbs and three different paved areas all at once.

Hopefully the long rectangle on the bridge is a pedestrian walkway.

I don’t think that there is any effect on the B Paddock. The tree inside the downhill is still there. Maybe the back of the paddock nears Skips builing and the On Track welder will suffer a bit.

The mounds between the track and pregrid are gone. It gives a nice view of the track.

Perhaps the sight lines down the downhill are hampered due to the barrier between the new pit in and the track.

The runoff on the bottom of the downhill is just a recommendation. My guess is that it will happen if there is time and if there are trucks with material available.

Andy Bettencourt

03-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Andy,

Thanks for your perspective. I'll have to try taking a deep breath and realizing that I can't influence whatever happens at LRP. Let's hope that Palmer and Thunderbolt are up and running soon...

Ken

I do think we can influence our Regions. Since they choose how to put on a race, they may choose a different config should it be available to them.

If we run anything other than the traditional layout (for LRP kinds of bucks) I would consider bagging LRP altogether. Talk with your local people.

I will get more info on what will be available to us.

kevin22

03-24-2008, 07:32 AM

Everything evolves, whether the end result is better, does not matter.
The track is changing, nothing we can do about it. The track will be different no matter which configuration we race. The original Configuration will no longer exist, It will now have New bumps, curbs, and different pavements.

Bottom line is Give us a track, Cars and someone to count laps, and we have a Race.
Thats all I need.
Even the new Configuration would be better then Pocono & New hampshire.

Andy Bettencourt

03-24-2008, 07:50 PM

This just in:

Each group will be able to run whatever configuration they want. The original one will stay intact as promised.

If you have a desire for a certain config, let your local comp board know!!!

Greg Amy

03-24-2008, 09:38 PM

Actually, can the config be adjusted, choosing to use whichever components one desires...? Hell, with that many options you could have a different track each race weekend! THAT may be a good draw for the LRP events: something new each time you go there...

dpc

03-25-2008, 08:41 AM

Is it true the bridge is already gone????? dave

raffaelli

03-25-2008, 08:56 AM

Is it true the bridge is already gone????? dave

The infield parking loss will kill the Grand Am weekend. Also, no way to get from the grass lot at registration to the track. Unless they rebuilt it prior to memorial day practice.

Andy Bettencourt

03-25-2008, 09:40 AM

I have heard the new bridge is something for 'phase two'...

Dave Patten

03-25-2008, 09:50 AM

Here is a photo posted to the Prod Site, doesn't look like there is a bridge right now.
More pictures can be seen here: http://www.timlinerud.com/racing/Lime_Rock/
http://www.timlinerud.com/racing/Lime_Rock/2.jpg

Greg Amy

03-25-2008, 09:56 AM

Wow...that sh*t's really happening...it's kinda like finding out Santa Claus really DOES exist...

Andy Bettencourt

03-25-2008, 09:56 AM

I know they were extending the abutments to accomodate the new roads...

It's almost like they extend the scope as more members sign up and they get more liquid.

JLawton

03-25-2008, 10:55 AM

I hope you don't lose the sensation of going under the bridge at 90+ and think you're going to have the roof wripped off!!

I remember ducking the first time I went under it!

Jeremy Billiel

03-25-2008, 11:50 AM

Maybe its just me, but I don't like it... Paving the run off in the downhill? Blehh...

LRP is crazy fast and takes big balls to go fast (Oh which I do not have) and it seems like they are taking away all of the dangers and making to too safe and cookie cutter.

Andy Bettencourt

03-25-2008, 11:55 AM

I hope you don't lose the sensation of going under the bridge at 90+ and think you're going to have the roof wripped off!!

I remember ducking the first time I went under it!

Dang you must be fast!!!!!! :p

lateapex911

03-25-2008, 12:10 PM

First time I went under it I had a car with a long hood, and all I saw was trees..."Where the hell is the road????".

Yup. NO bridge there, it's sitting in the parking lot.

They better hurry, lots to do...

RSTPerformance

03-25-2008, 05:43 PM

I am hoping that a safer track will mean more green flag laps and less full course yellows. The ITB/ITS races are regulars for having hero moves that result in single car incidents with cars throwing tires all over the place or ending up in an unsafe place and needed to be moved... The more forgiving track will make it so that the superhero's can survive a mistake or two and as a result we can all have longer races :)

Raymond "I can hope!!!" Blethen

lateapex911

03-25-2008, 06:09 PM

I am hoping that a safer track will mean more green flag laps and less full course yellows. The ITB/ITS races are regulars for having hero moves that result in single car incidents with cars throwing tires all over the place or ending up in an unsafe place and needed to be moved... The more forgiving track will make it so that the superhero's can try more and wilder moves and as a result we can all have shorter races :)

Raymond "I can hope!!!" Blethen

Fixed that for you! :)

itracer

03-25-2008, 08:07 PM

I am hoping that a safer track will mean more green flag laps and less full course yellows. The ITB/ITS races are regulars for having hero moves that result in single car incidents with cars throwing tires all over the place or ending up in an unsafe place and needed to be moved... The more forgiving track will make it so that the superhero's like me and my brother can survive a mistake or twelve and as a result we can all have longer races :)

Raymond "I can hope!!!" Blethen

I think that is more like it :D

RSTPerformance

03-25-2008, 11:03 PM

Magical Trevor

03-26-2008, 06:59 PM

hummm... Jason I am wondering how you would have ever seen any of my moves other than when I am lapping you :) lol

JK

Jake- The trying more moves is what worries me, incidents may become multi car rather than individual incidents... Not only will people more "daring" but people will also be avoiding accidents and ending up in them I think.

The Runoffs this year will be packed with entrants I think... should be interesting!!!

Raymond "I actually am excited about the changes" Blethen

It will be interesting... the same was said with the Uphill's changes in 2006 (wow, 10 feet more runoff! What a difference two years makes...)-but I don't think banzai moves really increased there. Of course, these new modifications will be much larger and more noticeable.

Magical Trevor

03-27-2008, 05:51 PM

That other site was downed from all the traffic; here's the pdf again...
http://myscca.com/file/250/2008/03/27/2923d1f99a118e59dac627ff3783.pdf

dtanthon

04-05-2008, 02:19 PM

The Driving Impressions Pro-IT scheduled for August 2 will be using the original configuration.
How many lap records will fall?

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE
www.NJRRS.com (http://www.NJRRS.com)
www.SCCA-NNJR.org (http://www.SCCA-NNJR.org)

kevin22

04-05-2008, 07:25 PM

none,

they are not repaving the old configuration. if anything i am thinking westbend may upset the car when coming off the new pavement onto the old. And also the different pavements may also effect the uphill.

Andy Bettencourt

04-05-2008, 07:52 PM

kevin22

04-06-2008, 12:09 AM

I will beleive it when I see it, The track design does not call for a total repave, And I expect Skippy will look for the cheapest way to get this done.

Andy Bettencourt

04-06-2008, 08:11 AM

Kevin,
What track design are you looking at? The .pdf that has been floating around highlights the NEW stuff.

This project has gone from a $3M deal to a $9M deal. Knowing what I know about the surface they are putting down, the desire to spend the 'investors' money wisely - I can tell you that they won't skimp on the track.

Expect a whole repave.

dickita15

04-06-2008, 09:28 AM

I was surprised to hear recently that the July ALMS race with use the new “club” circuit. They apparently refuse to race the prototypes on the classic circuit again.

Andy Bettencourt

04-06-2008, 10:43 AM

It may be a hybrid of the two designs. The ALMS cars travel in excess of 160 at the end of the straight and we all know what can happen at the exit of the uphill with high-downforce cars.

Safety is/was a major concern for them. The bumps didn't help anything either but LRP is like glass compared to some sections of Sebring that nobody is demanding get repaved.

dpc

04-06-2008, 04:49 PM

Guys don't beat yourself -up on this, as long as there is a track with a green flag and a checker they will come. dave

raffaelli

04-07-2008, 08:38 AM

The PDF that was floaring around does not give any indication that the existing track will be paved. The concrete patches still show on the plan.

You think the club track will bunch up the LMP's too much?

Andy Bettencourt

04-07-2008, 09:23 AM

Correct. However, what people don't understand is that what we are looking at is design plan for the stuff that had to get added.

dtanthon

04-08-2008, 03:37 PM

I spoke to LRP yesterday about the NNJR date in August.
We are using the original course.:happy204:

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE

Greg Amy

04-08-2008, 04:36 PM

I spoke to LRP yesterday about the NNJR date in August.
The "National" event?

dtanthon

04-08-2008, 04:50 PM

... as of now the SCCA National event with Pro-IT on Saturday only.

dtanthon

04-08-2008, 04:52 PM

The National is Friday & Saturday, the Pro-IT is Saturday only.
NNJR has a Board meeting tonight to discuss the format of this weekend.

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE

THawkbh

04-08-2008, 10:29 PM

Hey guys. I have been reading most of this thread over the past few days and I have a question or two.
Being that I don't have a liscense yet, I am concerned about the schools. Has the second school been scrapped? Assuming I can get on track at all this summer, I really hope not. Chances are I won't be going to WGI for the September or October school.
Forgive me if it was already talked about and I missed it.

Greg Amy

04-09-2008, 06:59 AM

Has the second school been scrapped?
Yes, unfortunately. As far as I can tell, there are no more schools until the Fall...

Andy Bettencourt

04-09-2008, 07:52 AM

raffaelli

04-09-2008, 11:28 AM

Will you be able to make the school at NHMS this weekend?

Looking forward to it, rain and all!:happy204:

Not only does it limit the school opportunity, but it also kills a huge chunk of time I have to get the other two races in before the permit expires. But we will git er dun!:eclipsee_steering:

THawkbh

04-09-2008, 11:42 AM

Will you be able to make the school at NHMS this weekend?

No, I'm still at school. I didn't even realize there was a school this weekend untill yesterday. I took a 'hiatus' when I went to college and now that I am about to finish, I am looking to get back into it.
By the way, Andy, you were my instructor when I did my first school way back 4 years ago. I think you were driving a yellow Saab or Bmw at the time.

Andy Bettencourt

04-09-2008, 12:54 PM

By the way, Andy, you were my instructor when I did my first school way back 4 years ago. I think you were driving a yellow Saab or Bmw at the time.

Maybe, but I ahve never driven a yellow Saab! A silver E36 M3 maybe, but that was 10 years ago...

:)

THawkbh

04-09-2008, 01:04 PM

Maybe, but I ahve never driven a yellow Saab! A silver E36 M3 maybe, but that was 10 years ago...

:)

Hmm.... I think you got banged up on the mock red flag. If this doesn't ring a bell then maybe I'm wrong.

Andy Bettencourt

04-09-2008, 02:20 PM

Hmm.... I think you got banged up on the mock red flag. If this doesn't ring a bell then maybe I'm wrong.

Nope...sorry! Too bad you can't make it this weekend.

THawkbh

04-09-2008, 02:41 PM

Nope...sorry! Too bad you can't make it this weekend.

I wish I could too. It looks like it'll take 2 seasons to get my liscense. (that's still legal, right?)

raffaelli

04-09-2008, 05:13 PM

Need to be careful on when you apply for your novice permit. It expires two years from when you apply for it (prior to school). So you will need to do the school and two successful events within two years of making application.
If you are going to do a school in September, you might want to wait till then to make application (don’t forget about timing the physical) for the novice permit. This way you will expire Sept 2010 instead of making application now and expire April 2010...gives you the entire summer of 2010 to finish up.

THawkbh

04-09-2008, 09:55 PM

Magical Trevor

04-10-2008, 10:09 PM

Here's a newer pdf (hopefully it won't require a registration)...
http://www.talkpoint.com/content/17720C7F-49B7-4601-9993-DF7181F618CB/D4F4C472-36DC-45AA-BD4C-162CBF16CBCE/C782939B-9858-47F2-B363-E974C58BD408/2/SLIDESHOW-729682.PDF

gizmo83

04-20-2008, 09:50 AM

I know I'm getting into this conversation extremely late...but... I went to the NHMS school in April and I did not get signed off!! Now what?? It is very depressing..with all I learned...and with the stuff I just started to understand that now I can't get on the track until October to progress!! I am scheduled to do the SCDA event on April 28th but this doesn't count toward my license and I still can't race all summer!!!??? By the way, I had a fantastic time at NHMS...Thanks to all the instructers and workers!! I even had fun flagging on Sunday and did learn more about T3!

dickita15

04-20-2008, 11:49 AM

It is sad but it is not the end of the world. You have choices but they all have some down side. I took a look and even towing to Great Lakes or South East your last opportunities were this weekend. you could fly somewhere and do a rental but that would cost a bit. You could take a accredited pro school but that also is expensive.
If I were in your shoes I would run 4-6 track days and refine your driving and your setup, come to some SCCA and work or crew and do a fall school very well prepared. The truth is if you were on the bubble for getting signed off you would be pretty much thrown into the deep end starting racing. Races are the most expensive track time. If you go the path I suggest you will be far more competitive sooner.

gizmo83

04-20-2008, 01:06 PM

That's pretty much what we thought!! I'm going to do as many track days as I can and maybe get some instruction when possible! I will be attending the school at Watkins Glen in October and hopefully be a better racer for Sunday! Thanks!

Andy Bettencourt

04-20-2008, 02:55 PM

I was told Motion Dynamics runs an accredited school at NHMS.

http://www.mdracing.com/school.asp

1-day.

gran racing

04-21-2008, 07:32 AM

Denise, how many track days do you currently have under your belt? If not a lot, doing what Dick said just might be the best thing for you. Maybe it'll turn out to be a blessing that the LRP school was canceled.

gizmo83

04-21-2008, 04:36 PM

Thank you Dave, Believe me your advice means alot...but there's a part of me that wants to learn to race now!! I have to get on the track some how...catch 22!(Can't get on the track until you learn to race and can't learn to race until you get on the track!) Track Days it is!

lateapex911

04-22-2008, 08:34 PM

here's the latest on changes.

Highlights:
They bought 19 acres to move the infield entrance, and make room for the West bend chicane.

They are still deciding on the final configuration of the West Bend area.

They put the bridge back, almost 7 feet higher to meet FIA specs.

The old track WILL be repaved in the time the track is closed between May 27 and july 2.

They planned to build new bathrooms, but the 100 year flood plain is complicating things.

It seems that any club may chose one of 8 configurations.

The new pit entrance will not take any space from the Sunoco paddock.

http://sportscardigest.com/archives/555

wdether

04-22-2008, 09:58 PM

here's the latest on changes.
.........
The new pit entrance will not take any space from the Sunoco paddock.

Jake,
Will everyone use the new pit entrance or will the current configuration be available?

Greg Amy

04-23-2008, 06:59 AM

Bill, since it "appears" they're adding additional runoff and a wall in the area of the old (existing) entrance, it does not appear to be an option.

Given that a LOT of driver conflicts happen because of the existing entrance (I almost got speared by a fast GT-1 car last year when I was running DP) I call this a Very Good Thing. - GA

lateapex911

04-23-2008, 10:19 AM

According to the article, which was essentially a quote from Skip Barber's speech/description, the existing opening will go away, and the new opening will be the only one used, similar to Road Atlanta, pre infield pits.

He did mention that the downhill runoff, both inside the track and outside will be paved, but the extent of that was undecided.

I raised an eyebrow at the quote that said "There are no Mickey Mouse chicanes"...the one entering the No Name Straight certainly appears to be very very tight as drawn, and while his assertion of it being wide enough for two cars to negotiate side by side my be true, I doubt that that will ever occur in any green flag condition.

To my eye, the new club layout looks very point and squirt, and rather Mickey Mouse-ish. A completley different track.
Good thing the classic will remain..it required some good fine line judgements.

gran racing

04-23-2008, 11:15 AM

I think the new pit-in entrance will be great! How many times are issues caused by someone slowing down to enter the pits on the downhill while at-speed cars are put into a tough position since they can't reach the apex? I like it.

For the club, is it necessary to use people's personal cars or what's the deal with the club cars they'll be getting (or have)? What happens if someone damages or totals one of those cars?

lateapex911

04-26-2008, 09:57 AM

So, we have determined that there will be lots of changes, but, we will be able to choose the configuration we run.

I wonder;

Will the rental fee be the same for every configuration? (Black helicopter thinking tells me the rent will be more for the configuration the renting club wants, if the management guesses which one that is correctly ahead of time...;) )

and...

which configuration will the test day use?

(I bet it will vary depending on which pro race is next in the sched, and will match the sanctioning bodies choice., i.e. IMSA/ALMS wants chicanes, so the chicanery (TM) is used.)

Magical Trevor

04-28-2008, 01:27 PM

Andy Bettencourt

05-05-2008, 03:32 PM

http://fox61.trb.com/video/?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=2448238

dominojd

05-05-2008, 04:35 PM

http://fox61.trb.com/video/?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=2448238

Look it's a Flatout commercial. ;)

benspeed

05-05-2008, 04:42 PM

Just too friggin cool! Who was driving the 91 car?

Andy Bettencourt

05-05-2008, 04:51 PM

Just too friggin cool! Who was driving the 91 car?

Club member.

Magical Trevor

05-05-2008, 05:43 PM

Greg Amy

05-05-2008, 08:11 PM

Whore.

:)

Andy Bettencourt

05-05-2008, 08:15 PM

Whore.

:)

Duh!!! :D

RSTPerformance

05-06-2008, 10:51 PM

Work continues on the new entrance roads; they look to be paved within a week or so (likely by Memorial Day). I will get some pictures tomorrow, they will be added here (plenty others of the work are already online): http://magicaltrevor2.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!D61C0F74EDB38226!2425/
In other news, the track has Coca-Cola back as official soft drink partner.

Dave-

This picture was taken from the above gallery... is this some paint from your car ;)

http://tkfiles.storage.live.com/y1pfUDVd3UDqUGM0VtWZYF6msuzzPdPeBRjifjTyxPGxGTCKZc IVtu8lHESOE4Rg7QLbVMFt-1cnt4

Raymond

Magical Trevor

05-07-2008, 09:35 AM

Dave-

This picture was taken from the above gallery... is this some paint from your car ;)

http://tkfiles.storage.live.com/y1pfUDVd3UDqUGM0VtWZYF6msuzzPdPeBRjifjTyxPGxGTCKZc IVtu8lHESOE4Rg7QLbVMFt-1cnt4

Raymond

Oh, I forgot I had taken that-that's from Ed Tisdale's incident at the NARRC-Offs last September (Pretty colorful, eh?).
http://improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22600

Tkczecheredflag

06-04-2008, 07:04 PM

Happened to be in Lakeville on business today and stopped by the tack for five minutes.

Sorry I didn't have a camera but here's what I saw going on. Upon arrival, the entrance to the "grassy" registration area had processed stone being spread - lots of it.

The track surface was being ground down in some areas (West Bend) but through Big Bend and the "esses", the track surfaces was removed. It would appear the a significant portion of track and dirt was gone (maybe some serious banking??). Lots of activity - If I return I will bring a camera and snap some shots.

Also saw a FOM "mosquito" working hard on the Kart Track surface.

supersmile

06-04-2008, 07:31 PM

http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2798

lateapex911

06-04-2008, 08:02 PM

WOW! I knew it would be repaved, but seeing it actually happening, and the actual deep trough that was once the track makes me...nervous!

Some cool shots on that thread, but these two really stood out. Doesn't look like that today, does it? nor will it look anything like it does today tomorrow...

Greg Amy

06-04-2008, 08:09 PM

HOLY CRAP! The earth berm on the outside of West Bend is...gone. All the way past the old track entrance road...they were already using the new track entrance road (Pic 1) Memorial Day weekend, so I guess I should be surprised...

Huh. He's really doing it...

gran racing

06-04-2008, 08:56 PM

Wow! Like others on that thread I have mixed emotions. Guess I'll just have to wait until Sept. to determine if I like the new track more or not.

wdether

06-04-2008, 09:15 PM

Wow! Like others on that thread I have mixed emotions. Guess I'll just have to wait until Sept. to determine if I like the new track more or not.

Dave,
You don't have to wait till September to race at the track. NNJR is planning to have a Pro-IT race (Round 3) during the August 1,2 National race. Come join the Pro-IT fun in August.

In addition to Round 3 of the Pro-IT series on August 2nd, there is round 2 at the TRI-Region Pocono double regional on July 5,6, Round 4 at the NNJR regional at NJMP on August 24, and round 5 and 6 at the NNJR regional at NJMP on October 18, 19.

JLawton

06-05-2008, 06:01 AM

Wow, rack records are gonna fall....

The fun of West Bend was sucking up your nuts and praying you didn't stuff it into the berm or shoot across he track to avoid it and hitting the bridge........

Sub 1:00 for ITS
1:00 for some ITA cars
1:02 for ITB

?????

dtanthon

06-05-2008, 07:15 AM

Pro-IT on August 2 will be quite the show. Single day, just Saturday, double points, will be the last race of the day. Expect Bob and Ed to have some interesting ideas. Maybe a bonus for lap records. Look for an announcement from Flatout. Group parking in B Paddock.

We are working on the sanction and entry. We should have it posted by the middle of the month.

We will be using the traditional course for all National and Pro-IT sessions.

Thanks,
Darrell

Dave Patten

06-05-2008, 08:14 AM

It is enlightening to see that the entire race surface is being reconstructed thru Big Bend and the Esses.

A properly constructed road surface is about 2 feet thick using 2-3 layers of stone/gravel and 2-3 layers of different types of asphalt paving.

One of the issues that Lime Rock has is poorly drained soil and water being trapped in the soils around Big Bend and the Esses. The photos posted by Blind Squirrel Racing show a 2'+ depth of the existing soil being removed and a black sheet (geo-textile fabric) being installed. What this does is it keep the fine, silty, water soaked soils from mixing with the courser upper layers of stone/gravel weakening the road base. It makes for a much stronger subgrade and is what was 100% needed in this area of the track.

Kudo's to LRP for actually spending the money to rebuild the track surface right.

http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2766&stc=1&d=1212636427

lateapex911

06-05-2008, 08:30 AM

Yup, he's not messing around! that's good and bad...

I hope that;
- the "character" of the place survives. So many Alan Wilson designs are constant radius bore fests. LRP was organic, and the combination of corners made it what it was. I hope the corners are maintained and not "polished" or "cleaned up", other than to smooth the surface and create a long lasting substructure.

-It gets done in time to cure properly, so that the ALMS cars don't rip it up on the first weekend, requiring quick emergency concrete patches, which puts us right back to where we are today. THAT would be tragic...

Jeremy Billiel

06-05-2008, 08:51 AM

I was thinking about that as well. They are not leaving very much time to let it cure.

Magical Trevor

06-05-2008, 09:54 AM

Skip said during Memorial Day weekend that four contractors are being used-one for surveying (getting as-built dimensions for as-close-to-exact-as-possible reconstruction of the surface dimensions-camber, etc.), one for milling in certain areas (front straight, West Bend), one for working the ground under the pavement and paving (Big Bend, Esses), and one for regular groundmoving (West Bend).
I just hope that only milling in certain areas instead of a full re-bed isn't going to hurt in the long run.

Andy Bettencourt

06-05-2008, 11:10 AM

Come to the Pro IT race at the SCCA National August and try it out!!!

CRallo

06-05-2008, 11:42 AM

Laguna Seca had to pave two years in a row lack of "cure time" was a factor...

You think Limerock is scary dry? try it in the wet :)

I learned to drive in the rain at Limerock back in October in a skippy race. I put the car on pole by over nine seconds :D I regret that the race(s) were not in the rain... That said the experience was amazing enjoyable and taught me so much. (even if I thought the car was wrecked like 6 times:eek:) I will forever look forward to rain races.

During the time I spent at Limerock working for Skip it became my home track. I was there almost everyday and took my skippy three day there. Going back is always a very nostalgic experience for me. So many memories both on and off the track. Now I will be like the man whose childhood house has since been torn down, I cannot go home...

I look forward to seeing and driving the new track with very very nervous anticipation

16v

06-10-2008, 11:18 PM

damn...

Marlboro Mafia

06-17-2008, 09:42 AM

Come to the Pro IT race at the SCCA National August and try it out!!!

Is the schedule for that weekend posted anywhere? We are considering the 12 hour trip to come race but need details.

Thanks.

dtanthon

06-19-2008, 07:39 AM

The entry and supps for the National and Pro-IT are in the final stages of approval. Once we get the sanction numbers we will post that to NeSCCA.com.

The national is August 1 & 2 and will use the classic Lime Rock Park course.

The Pro-IT will be Saturday only, there will be room reserved in B Paddock so we can all be together. Look for Flatout to be involved with a BBQ between sessions. Need to see what FOM has in store.

There will be a 15 minute qualifying session just before the lunch break. Then the race will be a few minutes after the last National race and will be 45 minutes (or till 5:55). Usual party/reception to follow. Once results are final I'll have the checks.

Should be a lot of fun at Lime Rock on the new surface!

See you at Pocono on July 5 & 6.
Thanks,
Darrell

lateapex911

06-19-2008, 05:48 PM

The latest update from Lime Rock has some changes:

Impressive pictures too,.

The entire Classic Lime Rock Park will be paved, the Optional Uphill and West Bend corners will be built and paved, the new entrance completed and two new spectator areas created. We’re using asphalt millings to “pave” the road into the overflow parking in Lights Field and all the dirt roads in the Infield. No more dirt and dust, which is particularly good for campers. In addition, we have rebuilt the interiors of both hospitality Chalets and hope to finish the roof over the ticket taking area.

We will postpone to the winter: moving 20,000 cubic yards of dirt to create the Optional Back Straight, building the Optional Lefthander, raising the runoff area of the Downhill and building the new pit lane. Late in the spring all of these elements will then be paved. We had hoped to rebuild the paddock bathrooms but this, as well, won’t happen until this winter.

Core samples determined that milling from the beginning of No Name Straight to the Pedestrian Bridge at the end of the Front Straight was the best preparation for repaving. Big Bend, the Lefthander and the right turn onto No Name Straight needed to be completely dug up – to a depth of 3.5 feet to build a proper base. In the photos you will see the excavation, the installation of a membrane that prevents a hydraulic movement of silt and sand upward into the new gravel and a grid over the first six inches of gravel that when filled, vibratory rolled and compacted, forms a stable near-concrete layer between the first and second gravel courses.

The rest of the track has been milled twice; one inch first and then a second .75 inch pass. The outside of the Front Straight has had a third, one-inch pass. This has all been done using non-contact sensors in an attempt to maintain a variation of less than an eighth of an inch. We’ll see, but driving on it prior to new asphalt shows a huge improvement. Participants should be extremely happy.

We have done an “as built” survey with the goal of replicating the cambers, banking, lack of both, etc. trying to exactly recreate the Classic track (minus the concrete patches and bumps). This is being done to the utmost capability of the machinery and as humanly possible for the physical labor involved.

The circuit will be ready for the ALMS race weekend. ALMS will run the Optional Uphill and the Optional West Bend. These two additions will also provide great viewing areas.

Over the next 12 months we will continue to develop three new viewing areas. The objective is to make it easy for spectators to walk from area to area and see the whole track in one day’s visit. When you approach the drive-over bridge from the new entrance there will be a berm on your right, before the bridge, that will give an excellent view of Classic and Optional West Bend. This will be largely completed this month. On the left, before the bridge, we will clear trees and brush to provide a good view of the downhill. We hope to do this by winter. And ultimately, there will be good viewing from the inside of the Optional Uphill. We might terrace this area.

As we continue the hard work and battle the weather, we will make sure to provide all fans with updated and detailed information on the website. We are thrilled that these improvements are being made and look forward to what the future holds for Lime Rock Park.

Andy Bettencourt

06-19-2008, 07:04 PM

I have been to LRP multiple times since the project started...the land that they moved to create the new uphill corner is amazing. Dumping all the fill into the huge gully outside the lefthander. Hope it drains well.......

Will be there Saturday if anyone wants pictures of a certain area...

Jeremy Billiel

06-19-2008, 08:13 PM

Where are the pictures?

lateapex911

06-19-2008, 09:59 PM

http://www.limerock.com/content/gallery-photos

CRallo

06-20-2008, 07:22 AM

just saw a map of the new optional track layout...

now I see why the entrance got moved they way it did. there will be track where the "guard shack" used to be!!

Just saw it all yesterday... all I can say is wow!!! I just hope all this fast work is done well:blink:

gran racing

06-20-2008, 08:13 AM

Andy, can you take a couple of the uphill and west bend?

robits325is

06-20-2008, 09:05 AM

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/Robbyracer/Westbend.jpg?t=1213966838

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm297/Robbyracer/pieceofhistory.jpg?t=1213966917

Taken last Saturday. Lots of work being done especially for a Saturday. The entrance is dramatically different - doesn't look like Lime Rock. I drove right by the security shed.

lateapex911

06-20-2008, 09:40 AM

One thing that bugs me.....look at picture 44. It's looking west, toward the esses, with Big Bend in the frame, being paved (That parts good!) But, along the left, about 5 feet from the edge of the track, appears to be a tire wall. One of the good things about Big Bend is the amount of "Recovery space" you have outside the turn before you hit anything. Now, it appears, a little slide puts you into the wall. Why would they do that?? It seems really backwards.

I'd rather they had a grass strip outside the turn that's 6 or 10 feet wide, then a paved area. heck, paint the pavement green and put lots of gritty sand in the paint to help spinning cars slow down. Looks 'natural', yet doesn't damage cars. win-win.

If that wall had been there when this happened, I'd have a lot more bodywork to do...

Magical Trevor

06-20-2008, 02:28 PM

One thing that bugs me.....look at picture 44. It's looking west, toward the esses, with Big Bend in the frame, being paved (That parts good!) But, along the left, about 5 feet from the edge of the track, appears to be a tire wall. One of the good things about Big Bend is the amount of "Recovery space" you have outside the turn before you hit anything. Now, it appears, a little slide puts you into the wall. Why would they do that?? It seems really backwards.

I'd rather they had a grass strip outside the turn that's 6 or 10 feet wide, then a paved are. heck, paint the pavement green and put lots of gritty sand in the paint to help spinning cars slow down. Looks 'natural', yet doesn't damage cars. win-win.

If that wall had been there when this happened, I'd have a lot more bodywork to do...
That's only there temporarily; I'm not sure why it was moved, but it may have been to level off that "recovery space" out towards the scoreboard. The tires will certainly be moved back.