Spare Tire

[toddgreene]

I'm trying to lose the spare tire arpoud my waist and replace it with one in the rear of the car.

Do I have to find the exact original OEM spare or will any 13" Honda wheel and tire work (reasonable) in my Honda?

In the meantime, I have written the CRB to request allowances for IT and SS cars to substitute 25# of ballast for a spare tire if applicable.

Thanks,

Todd

[Xian]

I would imagine that it needs to be a spare tire that is identical in size and dimensions to the spare tire your car came with...

I don't like the #25 idea. The spare tire "allowance" is simply that. It allows you to leave your spare tire in the car... a substitution to alternate ballast is unnecessary, imo.

Regards,
Christian

[toddgreene]

Thanks,

My thoughts on the allowance are for safety.
The legally mounted ballast may be more safely attached than a tire.

Todd

[shwah]

You can attach a spare tire safely more easily than you can obtain or make a chunk of ballast IMO.

[jjjanos]

I would imagine that it needs to be a spare tire that is identical in size and dimensions to the spare tire your car came with...

A quick look at the rule book says...

9.1.3.D.10.c. Spare wheels and tires may be removed.

It doesn't say you can replace it with anything other than what came on the car.

So, I would say that a strict interpretation of the rule says you are correct. E.g. If all of the cars on a spec line came with a space saver, you have to run a space saver, but if one came with a cast iron spare, you could slog the 200 lbs of iron into the rear of the car.

[spnkzss]

A quick look at the rule book says...

9.1.3.D.10.c. Spare wheels and tires may be removed.

It doesn't say you can replace it with anything other than what came on the car.

So, I would say that a strict interpretation of the rule says you are correct. E.g. If all of the cars on a spec line came with a space saver, you have to run a space saver, but if one came with a cast iron spare, you could slog the 200 lbs of iron into the rear of the car.


Which is a shame because the ONLY reason I keep a mini spare for the Honda in the trailer is so that if I or any friends have an.... "incident".... we can take the race tire out and put the spare on. It normally moves a little better onto the trailer with a nice mini tire then a crunched wide race wheel. :D

[tom91ita]

You can attach a spare tire safely more easily than you can obtain or make a chunk of ballast IMO.

my understanding of the rules is that you can NOT add additional bolting to secure the spare tire. for those of us with hatchbacks where we can see the spare, it is a potential safety issue. we can all decide if the stock mounting style bolt is appropriate.

that being said, i have seen many cars with additional bolting to secure the spare (and i personally don't care). i have wondered about making a piece of "roll-cage" that would extend back over the spare to prevent it from moving.

[Greg Amy]

my understanding of the rules is that you can NOT add additional bolting to secure the spare tire.
Technically to the rules, that is correct. However, my local Chief Scru made me add additional bolts, in a manner similar to the ballast rules.

Frankly, that a good thing, 'cause once you REALLY look at that silly taffy-like wingbolt they have holding in the spare (normally covered in panels, carpets, and a seatback "firewall") you recognize that just ain't right...

[shwah]

Maybe that is something we should be requesting an allowance for - or something the ITAC should discuss regardless, due to the very real potential confilct of safety and legality.

[spnkzss]

Technically to the rules, that is correct. However, my local Chief Scru made me add additional bolts, in a manner similar to the ballast rules.

Frankly, that a good thing, 'cause once you REALLY look at that silly taffy-like wingbolt they have holding in the spare (normally covered in panels, carpets, and a seatback "firewall") you recognize that just ain't right...

Rule change time??????

[Knestis]

If it were me, I'd just change "may remove" to "must remove" and leave it at that.

But it isn't.

K

[spnkzss]

If it were me, I'd just change "may remove" to "must remove" and leave it at that.

But it isn't.

K

Curious, why remove it instead of stating that it must be secured properly?

[dickita15]

my understanding of the rules is that you can NOT add additional bolting to secure the spare tire.
I see no reason why it would be illegal to add additional fasteners to secure the spare tire. Fasteners are free as long as they serve the same purpose. That purpose in this case is to secure the tire.

[vr6guy]

Lets think "Safety" even though its becoming a foreign term to scca...... (sfi = safety?)

Marc Rider

[Andy Bettencourt]

I see no reason why it would be illegal to add additional fasteners to secure the spare tire. Fasteners are free as long as they serve the same purpose. That purpose in this case is to secure the tire.
Are the 'replacement' of fasteners free, Dick - or the 'addition' of fasteners? I believe the former.

It would be nice to require the same 'grade' of fasteners for the spare tire (should it be retained) as the ballast.

[Gary L]

Just for the Hell of it - where is this ambiguity, relative to hardware that holds the spare tire/wheel in place? Unless I missed something, the hardware must be bone stock, because there is no allowance for anything else.

In the ITCS, the paragraphs that include an allowance for hardware items to be replaced with "similar" items, are very specifically limited... it's not a blanket allowance for the entire car. The three allowable applications are the engine, the transmission & final drive, and suspension mounting points. If you see that allowance anywhere else in the ITCS, your search engine is better than mine.

Ironically, the paragraph that allows the spare tire to remain in place - stock hardware and all - is entitled "Safety". :blink:

[x-ring]

I would imagine that it needs to be a spare tire that is identical in size and dimensions to the spare tire your car came with...

Does it say somewhere the OEM spare tire has to be full of OEM air?

There is a line in the GCR that states something to the effect that a permittted modification cannot perform an additional, prohibitted, function. There was a case a while back where a competitor made his right rear cage mounting plate out of 3" thick steel. The first court ruled that the permitted modification (adding a roll cage mounting plate) was compliant, but making one of those plates 3" thick was an 'additional, prohibited, function' -- ballast in a pllace other than where ballast is allowed.

I'm not sure this rule would cover this 'clever' non-compliant balllast problem, because leaving the spare tire (filled with water?) in place is not a modification.

I'm just sayin'

[Andy Bettencourt]

Does it say somewhere the OEM spare tire has to be full of OEM air?

There is a line in the GCR that states something to the effect that a permittted modification cannot perform an additional, prohibitted, function. There was a case a while back where a competitor made his right rear cage mounting plate out of 3" thick steel. The first court ruled that the permitted modification (adding a roll cage mounting plate) was compliant, but making one of those plates 3" thick was an 'additional, prohibited, function' -- ballast in a pllace other than where ballast is allowed.

I'm not sure this rule would cover this 'clever' non-compliant balllast problem, because leaving the spare tire (filled with water?) in place is not a modification.

I'm just sayin'
Must be winter! ;)

Ty, I fall back on this: Where does it say you can SUBSTITUTE the air for anything else? Guys, saying you can fill the spare tire with anything but air is rediculous. It violates a few different rules.

[shwah]

Sorry but that's just silly.

The rule does not say you can change what is in the tire. So it has to be full of air Unless it was empty from the factory, ala the collapsable spares that some cars had in 70s.

Obviously it is not possible, or required to identify the air molecules in your spare and corrolate them to 'stock air'.

[dickita15]

I was about to say Andy had it all wrong about replace or addition of fasteners and then Gary stopped me in my tracks. Gary is right and I missed it, the allowance for fasteners are only in those three areas.
I guess that makes my car illegal. When one of the body nut welded to sheet metal screws up I replace it with a nut and bolt.
By the way the air in the spare can be replaced with air from other than the manufacturer if it is the exact equivalent of the factory air.

[raffaelli]

Sorry but that's just silly.

The rule does not say you can change what is in the tire. So it has to be full of air Unless it was empty from the factory, ala the collapsable spares that some cars had in 70s.

Obviously it is not possible, or required to identify the air molecules in your spare and corrolate them to 'stock air'.

LOL....where do I get OE air?:happy204:

[Knestis]

Curious, why remove it instead of stating that it must be secured properly?

It's become a de facto ballast item, retained for no other reason. (Remember that the original stated intent of IT was "dual-purpose cars" that could be driven to the track, so a spare made sense - but we're long past that.) There's no provision currently to increase the strength of the mount. This creates potentially dangerous situations, as drivers have a motivation to leave it in for performance's sake, compromising safety. The addition of rules to accomplish what the subtraction of rules will also accomplish is going the wrong direction so we can remove the threat of injury, defuse any chance at ambiguity that will come back to bite us, and impact everyone exactly the same amount (conceptually) by just making them go away.

K

[toddgreene]

Wow!!! This has come alive...

Back to my original post, I have written the CRB for the allowance of ballast in place of the spare
(optional) tire for safety's sake.

Thanks,

Todd

[Andy Bettencourt]

Wow!!! This has come alive...

Back to my original post, I have written the CRB for the allowance of ballast in place of the spare
(optional) tire for safety's sake.

Thanks,

Todd
There is already a limitation on where ballast can be placed.

[jjjanos]

Ty, I fall back on this: Where does it say you can SUBSTITUTE the air for anything else? Guys, saying you can fill the spare tire with anything but air is rediculous. It violates a few different rules.

Which rules? Please indicate where the rules mention with what I may fill my tires? Yes, they don't explicitely say you may fill them with anything but air, but then again, the rules don't explicitely say you can fill them with anything other than the PSI with which they came from the factory. So you can use any tire you want, as long as it is filled to 32PSI?

As for swapping out the spare, oopsie... Need to change my opinion...

9.1.3.D.7.a Any wheel/tire may be used within the following limitations:

9.1.3.D.7.a.5 Any wheel stud, bolt, and or nut is permitted.

Where does this specify the 4 tires on the ground. So, if the spare tire meets the rest of the definitions in the tire/wheel section, it should be a legal tire. In addition, you may use any bolt or nut to attach that spare tire. Extra mounting brackets, however, would be a no-no.

One might be able to prohibit concrete tires on the "prohibited function" rule like the two-ton cage mount, but the way around that is to use ANY wheel that meets 9.1.3.D.7.a.1 - size limitations, no knock-offs and it must be made of metal - say a heavy wheel with 100 lbs of lead as wheel weights.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And with that post, I am out of the discussion. :blink:

[spnkzss]

It's become a de facto ballast item, retained for no other reason. (Remember that the original stated intent of IT was "dual-purpose cars" that could be driven to the track, so a spare made sense - but we're long past that.) There's no provision currently to increase the strength of the mount. This creates potentially dangerous situations, as drivers have a motivation to leave it in for performance's sake, compromising safety. The addition of rules to accomplish what the subtraction of rules will also accomplish is going the wrong direction so we can remove the threat of injury, defuse any chance at ambiguity that will come back to bite us, and impact everyone exactly the same amount (conceptually) by just making them go away.

K

Spoken like a true ITAC member :happy204:

[Greg Amy]

Please indicate where the rules mention with what I may fill my tires?
Two points:

1) The direct answer to your question above is IIDSYCTYC, plain and simple. You are correct, the rules do not allow the use of anything but regular ole atmospheric air in the tires, 'cause that's what the manufacturer delivered it with. Arguing anything different is silly.

However, while we do not have the equipment to determine if your tire is filled with either air or some other gas (or mixture thereof), we do have the capability to determine if it's filled with any type of non-gaseous substance. If you want to cheat by using nitrogen or some other gas, you'll get a pass. But it's still cheating (and yes, I do it).

2) In reality, regardless of the rules, it's enforced in Tech that you cannot fill your spare tire with a non-gaseous substance. After the '06 ARRC win I was forced to unbolt the spare tire (held in place by two safety-wired 1/2" bolts) so the tech inspector could heft in in his hands and verify it was not filled with, for instance, water or concrete (it was actually flat...) Same thing has happened twice to me during pre-season annual tech.

[jjjanos]

Two points:


1) The direct answer to your question above is IIDSYCTYC, plain and simple. You are correct, the rules do not allow the use of anything but regular ole atmospheric air in the tires, 'cause that's what the manufacturer delivered it with. Arguing anything different is silly.

However, while we do not have the equipment to determine if your tire is filled with either air or some other gas (or mixture thereof), we do have the capability to determine if it's filled with any type of non-gaseous substance. If you want to cheat by using nitrogen or some other gas, you'll get a pass. But it's still cheating (and yes, I do it).

2) In reality, regardless of the rules, it's enforced in Tech that you cannot fill your spare tire with a non-gaseous substance. After the '06 ARRC win I was forced to unbolt the spare tire (held in place by two safety-wired 1/2" bolts) so the tech inspector could heft in in his hands and verify it was not filled with, for instance, water or concrete (it was actually flat...) Same thing has happened twice to me during pre-season annual tech.


1. IIDSYCTYC also means that the factory-spec PSI is the only thing that is legal.
2. IIDSYCTYC also means that you were illegal when that spare was flat since that is an unauthorized modification. The tire came with air in it, correct?

IIDSYCTYC cuts both ways. If it is illegal to modify the substance filling the tires, it also is illegal to alter the factory specification for filling the tires.

Stupid? Assinine? Yes, but if IIDSYCTYC is going to be enforced in a manner that criminalizes common sense modifications - see altering the spare tire mount to secure it in a safer manner - it has to criminalize all of them otherwise it isn't IIDSYCTYC, it's IIDSYCTYCUWFLIBWANGTTYW.

[mom'sZ]

boy... you can tell it's winter time

[Jake]

As for swapping out the spare, oopsie... Need to change my opinion...

9.1.3.D.7.a Any wheel/tire may be used within the following limitations:

9.1.3.D.7.a.5 Any wheel stud, bolt, and or nut is permitted.

Where does this specify the 4 tires on the ground. So, if the spare tire meets the rest of the definitions in the tire/wheel section, it should be a legal tire. In addition, you may use any bolt or nut to attach that spare tire. Extra mounting brackets, however, would be a no-no.

One might be able to prohibit concrete tires on the "prohibited function" rule like the two-ton cage mount, but the way around that is to use ANY wheel that meets 9.1.3.D.7.a.1 - size limitations, no knock-offs and it must be made of metal - say a heavy wheel with 100 lbs of lead as wheel weights.

Umm, I would think that 9.1.3.D.7.a should apply. I don't agree with the lead weight/concrete etc. tortured interpretation. But I think it would be reasonable to replace it with a normal wheel/tire - or the one you are racing with! Perhaps then I can change a flat without a pit crew!

[JamesB]

man, remind me never to read this thread after a long meeting. Persoanlly I have a spare, safey issues I dont get, if I can bolt 50# using 2 large bolts within headshot of me then I have no problem with my OEM, air filled spare in the back of the car where it would take more then a bolt breaking to get to me using the oem mounting system and some locktite to keep her in place.

[vr6guy]

:eek: I have a hatchback, where if the OEM mounting system for the spare were to fail, it would be bouncing all over the car! Does'nt sound safe to me...... If I were to run a spare, it would be reinforced in another way for the SAFETY, for myself and others. Keyword, SAFETY!

[JamesB]

And what about the 50# of lead or other ballast mounted in your passanger footwell or before the B pillar held in by 2 bolts in clear shot of your body and head? I looked at the VW mounting system for the spare, egads it has as much reinforcement as the OEM seat belt locations!!! so really I dont see it as an issue. Having owned many tanks, I mean golfs and being hit hard in the street (rear ended) the one thing I know is that spare tire does not like to come out....ever.

[gran racing]

If someone feels their particular spare tire poses a safety thread, here's an idea - don't put it in. :rolleyes: Like James said, I'd be more nervous of the lead or fire extinguisher than a spare tire for the cars I've seen them mounted.

[JamesB]

Exactly. If you dont like it dont use it. but if I didnt do that I would have around 70-75# of ballast within head shot. I dindt even think about the handheld fire extinguisher that would likely pop loose in the event of a roll. But in the end, that spare tire has to make it through the maze of main hoop, uprights, diagnals braces and the harness bar to get to me. The ballast just has to move.

[jjjanos]

If someone feels their particular spare tire poses a safety thread, here's an idea - don't put it in. :rolleyes: Like James said, I'd be more nervous of the lead or fire extinguisher than a spare tire for the cars I've seen them mounted.

Then don't put the extinguisher in.

[Knestis]

I'd be laughing and rolling my smiley eyes too, if I hadn't seen a completely serious inquiry elsewhere, that resulted in suggestions about where to get used recycled birdshot for spare tire filling.

If you race in WDC region, ask Ginsberg if you can bench-press his spare at some point this season.

K

[jjjanos]

I'd be laughing and rolling my smiley eyes too, if I hadn't seen a completely serious inquiry elsewhere, that resulted in suggestions about where to get used recycled birdshot for spare tire filling.

If you race in WDC region, ask Ginsberg if you can bench-press his spare at some point this season.

K

Better yet, ask Ginsberg if he can bench-press his spare....

Hi Gregg:006:

[JamesB]

All good and well Kirk, but again, I was not talking about another competitor and what they do with their spare. I have a 100% oem legal spare that holds nothing but air. Add in some ballast to balence the car and allow me to make weight without sloshing around a full tank of fuel and im good to go. If you think the spare is a safety issue, by all means don't use one. But if I can help the balence of my car as well as make weight without needing to come of off the track with 9 gallons in the tank (some tracks you burn more.) The so be it.

[lateapex911]

All good and well Kirk, but again, I was not talking about another competitor and what they do with their spare. I have a 100% oem legal spare that holds nothing but air. Add in some ballast to balence the car and allow me to make weight without sloshing around a full tank of fuel and im good to go. If you think the spare is a safety issue, by all means don't use one. But if I can help the balence of my car as well as make weight without needing to come of off the track with 9 gallons in the tank (some tracks you burn more.) The so be it.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I hear some desire for rules creep intended to aid certain cars....

Remember all, when we decided to race our Borgwards, we did so knowing that they might have certain warts to go along with their strengths.

Luckily for this car, (and most, actually) his "issue" can be solved with a fuel cell, properly baffled, and the proper (heavy) reinforced structure it's mounted in.

[Knestis]

I don't think James is advocating for anything other than for things to be left exactly the way they are, so I don't smell any creepiness there. My point is that, when we start talking about changing things, the thing we should change is the allowance to leave it in, rather than layering on a bunch of additional language to "clarify" or "fix" the situation.

K

[racingralph]

unless the rules have changed. u can remove the spare tire.u can remove the passenger seat. the ballast has to be in the passenger foot well. if u need the the weight of the spare tire leave it in, because you can.if u need more weight,leave in the passener seat in. i would leave them ( both if needed) to balance the car. then add the ballast !

[Jake]

I seriously do have a question. For the zillions of cars that come with a donut standard but usually have full-sized spare tires (either a factory or dealer option), can we put in a full sized spare tire?

And since we can change the wheels on the ground - can we put a different wheel and tire (assuming it meets the same rules as the wheels on the ground)?

I really do think that if the wheel/tire is legal for the ones on the ground than it should be legal to carry as a spare. A 70lb wheel with extra balance weights filled with buckshot is NOT legal to race on and would not pass tech.

My interest? I carry a 5th matched wheel around with me. I'd just assume strap it in the car than have to cart it around in the back of my SUV. Heck, I think it's lighter than the donut anyway!

[JamesB]

I don't think James is advocating for anything other than for things to be left exactly the way they are, so I don't smell any creepiness there. K


ding ding ding. Its allowed today, I have the option of removing my spare, I choose not toremove it and use it to stay to min weight since I can. I do not see it as a safety issue any worse then ballast mounted on my passanger floor.

[Gary L]

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the rule regarding the spare tire is really very clear.


c. Spare wheels and tires may be removed.
That's the entire rule, and it appears to be every thing the ITCS has to say about spare tires. So... if your car came with a spare tire & wheel, you may remove it. IMO therefore, the rule does not allow modification, replacement, or substitution. It also doesn't allow making it bigger or smaller or heavier or lighter.

Having said that, if the line entry for your car includes several model years, and some of them were equipped with spacesavers while some had regular spare tires, you would therefore have a choice between those stock spare tires, based on the assembly update/backdate allowance.

As an aside - I've had the pleasure of watching a stock Volvo 15 x 5.5 wheel & Michelin ZX 165-15 assembly being weighed... before and after the sand was removed. The scale readings were 87 and 37 lbs, respectively. :o

[jjjanos]

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the rule regarding the spare tire is really very clear.


That's the entire rule, and it appears to be every thing the ITCS has to say about spare tires. So... if your car came with a spare tire & wheel, you may remove it. IMO therefore, the rule does not allow modification, replacement, or substitution. It also doesn't allow making it bigger or smaller or heavier or lighter.

9.1.3.D.7.a Any wheel/tire may be used within the following limitations:

You may remove the spare tire/wheel or you may replace it with one that is legal for your car as defined in the limitations.

It clearly says that ANY wheel/tire may be used. If it says you can do it, then you can.

[Z3_GoCar]

Here's a new wrinkle on this theme. I've got an under car mini spare. It mounts in a plastic tray secured in a steel frame and two m20 nuts hold it up against the trunk floor. Say I remove the mini spare and fill the tray with dirt then wet it down so that it has all the properties of concrete. As much off roading as I do it just might happen anyway:p

Actually I think I need to do this anyway as it doesn't say anything about removing the spare tire storage, just the spare. Oh, and on my street Z3 I've emptied out maybe 5-10lbs of dirt and rock when I last serviced the spare tire, so it is realistic to believe that the tray naturally collects dirt and rocks.

James

[JimLill]

A parameter to consider in all of this............ Polar Moment

[lateapex911]

James, i stand corrected. I read your post through fever influenced eyes, and misunderstood.

On the option to swap the spare for anything, based on the relevant rule that allows wheel swaps, I beg to differ. The rulebook makes the general statement, then goes on to specify spares as a subset, and lists the requirement for them clearly.

[Z3_GoCar]

James, i stand corrected. I read your post through fever influenced eyes, and misunderstood.

On the option to swap the spare for anything, based on the relevant rule that allows wheel swaps, I beg to differ. The rulebook makes the general statement, then goes on to specify spares as a subset, and lists the requirement for them clearly.

Hey Jake,

I'm not really serious, just adding to some of the sillyness.

But there's nothing in the rule book about removing the spare carrier and under tray as part of the general gutting. If anything I'd support Kirk's first inclination and say must remove all spares, and associated attaching hardware. For me it's just one less place to collect dirt.

James

[JamesB]

Jake no biggie. I guess in my own ranting and worries about having to remove my spare and bolt more weight next to my body is what I was after.

As for the spare size. I am not sure what to think on that, I am still using my mini spare but a full size would easilly fit in the well.

[Gary L]

But there's nothing in the rule book about removing the spare carrier and under tray as part of the general gutting.
James,
While admitting there's a possible argument that your car does not carry the spare in the "trunk", I would think the following would apply (9.1.3.D.9.g - page 331):

Any removable covers used to cover spare tires, tools, bins, etc., may be removed along with attaching hardware and bracketry.

[Z3_GoCar]

James,
While admitting there's a possible argument that your car does not carry the spare in the "trunk", I would think the following would apply (9.1.3.D.9.g - page 331):


So then I could remove the rear bumper/cover as it covers the spare:D

Reasonable people may disagree.

James

[Ed Funk]

So then I could remove the rear bumper/cover as it covers the spare:D

Reasonable people may disagree.

James

:eclipsee_steering:Reasonable people!?! at IT.COM in the winter?!? Hell there's only about 2 reasonable people here! and I'm both of 'em!!:024:

[toddgreene]

Jake no biggie. I guess in my own ranting and worries about having to remove my spare and bolt more weight next to my body is what I was after.



I'm asking for an allowance to substitute ballast for the tire. (It's optional).
It's not something that should be mandatory...

BTW, all of you wanting concrete and lead-filled tires, must they be 120 mph rated???

Todd