Front sway bar or no front sway that is the question...

[pimpm3]

I am building a 2000 Toyota Celica for ITR and I was discussing with my co-driver and one of my friends who races an ITA CRX about the benefits of a front sway bar. The car has threaded Koni double adjustable shocks at all four corners and I am running 650 lbs springs up front and 1050's in the rear. I purchased the suspension from a person parting out a NASA touring car Celica and that was the setup they ran.

I have heard that some people run Honda's with out the front sway bar in order to help with turn in. Is this something I should look into with the Celica? It will obviously save some weight and if it helps with turn in it sounds like a good option. What are the downsides to removing the bar? My last race car was mid engined and setting it up is different from the front wheel drive celica.

Thanks in advance...

[joeg]

General rule: For FWD--no (or as small as possible) front sway bar; BIG rear bar.

[pimpm3]

http://www.warehousemotors.com/item_images/935-935-41-1.jpg

Here are the Rears
http://www.warehousemotors.com/item_images/935-935-40-1.jpg

The problem arose from the fact that the Koni's don't have a provision for mounting a front bar like the stock Toyota shocks. I can fabricate some brackets but if I am not going to run a front bar I don't need to waste my time.

Here is the rear bar that I need to come up with some brackets to mount...
http://www.warehousemotors.com/item_images/935-935-44-1.jpg

[Greg Amy]

Dude, those are Koni 2817 inverted monotube struts...! I would have KILLED for those for my FWD Nissan! IMO, the best non-reservoir strut available. Those things are easily $1500 each, so take very good care of them...

That rear swaybar is trick, too. Find out the source for the torsion bar for it, and keep a couple in a middle range available. That way you can swap them around easily for tuning. As for how to mount it, go to Speedway Engineering's web site and look for bushings/collars, and weld up a bracket to the car. Then, contact Koni (PM me for contact info); they make a threaded collar that you can screw onto the bottom on those shocks. Onto this collar you'll weld a mounting tab for the bar end links. I see you're in Jacksonville; if you don't have those skillsets I'm sure you can find someone nearby that does.

Oh, and ditch the front swaybar. If that makes you nervous, then start with the wimpy stock one first. THEN ditch it. - GA

[lateapex911]

Cool stuff. That rear bar looks like it's got adjustment holes already. If you can, spot your suspension mount points a god distance away, (So you have a decently long link), that way your adjustments can be used in a linear fashion. Too short a link and you'll have weird angles going on.

[pimpm3]

Those things are easily $1500 each No wonder when I called shox.com the guy wanted to buy them...

I am going to remove the front bar. I guess if I don't like it I can allways put it back.

[Xian]

Niiiiiice hardware :)

I can't comment for your specific application but for some of the FWD Honda products they tend to perform better without a front bar (specifically the 88-91 Civic/CRXen). The elimination of the front bar isn't so much to improve turn-in specifically but is more to improve front traction under power in corners while the inside front is mostly unloaded. I'll also add that this "no-bar" approach reportedly doesn't work too well for the 92+ Civics and 94+ Integras.

Isn't the Celica front suspension struts? (sure looks like it front the shock pics) Might be a good idea to check with some of the ITB VW crowd as they've got strut fronts... I think that some of them run no front bar.

BTW, I'm in the Jacksonville area too. Not sure that I have nearly the fabrication skills you'll need for mounting that rear bar though ;)

[Rabbit07]

You may find that if you do not run a front stab bar that you may require higher rate springs in the front to control roll. Running a bar in the front can hurt the traction off the corner due to lifting the tire. See my avitar. I find that I like having a stab bar up front. I tried a softer one and found the car to be about .5 sec slower at a 2.5 mile track. This is driver preference also. Is the Celica a Mac strut front suspension? You will likely need some testing to dial it in. I would keep some different spring rates and some different bars around and just keep tryng thins until you get what you like.

[JLawton]

I would try driving it as is to start. Or, go to a test day, run one session with, one with out and feel the difference.

[pimpm3]

We are doing a test day at Roebling on the 22nd of Feburary. I am pretty sure I can get all of the loose ends tied up by then and get the car to a point where we can start adjusting things. Thanks for all of the feedback so far.

By the way the Celica has struts. The front suspension is similar to Greg Amy's NX2000.

[pimpm3]

BTW, I'm in the Jacksonville area too. Not sure that I have nearly the fabrication skills you'll need for mounting that rear bar though

What part of Jacksonville are you from? I am surprised I haven't met you before. I am pretty good a fabricating things, I just need to get the brackets from Speedway engineering and go from there. If it looks like it is going to be a little out of my league Dwight at Stage6 can take care of it for me.

[Knestis]

Eliminating the front bar also takes a hunk of weight off the correct end.

We did that with the Golf but interestingly, there's been some conversation recently re: whether this is ACTUALLY ALLOWED by the rules:

"Any anti-roll bar(s), traction bar(s), panhard rod or watts linkage may be added or substituted..."

...with no explicit mention that the stock ones may simply be "removed" if nothing is substituted.

K

[Greg Amy]

My front swaybar is custom-made out of air...

:smilie_pokal:

[Rabbit07]

My front swaybar is custom-made out of air...

:smilie_pokal:

Greg,

You know better........... :018:

[Greg Amy]

You know better........... :018:
'Course I do, but remember: it's a whole new world...

Lookin' for the Prof to support the old one...

[JamesB]

So prof K reppin the old skool?

[shwah]

The VW crowd seems split on what works best. Many/most go with no front bar. Some go with stock. Very few run bigger. The issue is unloading the inside front wheel, which makes the differential type impact the decision as well.

I personally run a Jetta GLI front bar which is a few mm bigger than the stock one.

[JamesB]

I compensate with higher spring rates which gives me better braking and turn in compression and avoids lifting the inside wheel too much. While the big rear bar will gladly raise the inside rear leg high enough to avoid some apex cones in the process (did that instructing one weekend.)

[Xian]

What part of Jacksonville are you from? I am surprised I haven't met you before. I am pretty good a fabricating things, I just need to get the brackets from Speedway engineering and go from there. If it looks like it is going to be a little out of my league Dwight at Stage6 can take care of it for me.

I'm just south of Jacksonville in St. Johns County. :) What part of town are you located in?

I've done a bit of basic welding but don't have the tooling for truly "custom" parts. If you can get the basic brackets from speedway, I'd imagine that the rest should be pretty easy. I've heard some good things about Stage6 but haven't worked/spoken with them...

BTW, I like the idea of the Celica in R. Should be a competition of lightweight, high hp, and low tq versus heavier, more powerful cars :023:

Feel free to hit me up if you need a spare hand with your new build!

Christian

[Xian]

My front swaybar is custom-made out of air...

:smilie_pokal:

I dunno... that sounds like questionable ground to be standing on...

Christian, who's going to have a front sway bar made out of heavy duty fishing line. :023:

[pimpm3]

Christian I know who you are you used to have the yellow Type-r didn't you. It is me Jeremy with Warehouse Motors.

If you are down we are going to do the seat-time event on February 22nd to do a little testing on the new car. It is cheap and you get a ton of track time. (2.5 hours or so if you want it) It would be nice to have some other race cars out there.

[Greg Amy]

I dunno... that sounds like questionable ground to be standing on...
OK, then I have a two-piece front swaybar: two halves, sawed in the middle of the transverse part...oh, and the links aren't connected...and it's also made of Christian's fishing line, which is very, very, very small...

Same dance, different tune...

But as for the Celica with the pimpy Koni struts that I'm jealous of...try it all, see what you like!

[pimpm3]

But as for the Celica with the pimpy Koni struts that I'm jealous of...try it all, see what you like!

Like my previous post said we are doing a track day in February and will be fiddling with all sorts of stuff. It also should be interesting driving a front driver for the first time. It should be a little different from my old MR2. Hopefully the power difference will be pretty noticeable ;)

[Xian]

Christian I know who you are you used to have the yellow Type-r didn't you. It is me Jeremy with Warehouse Motors.

If you are down we are going to do the seat-time event on February 22nd to do a little testing on the new car. It is cheap and you get a ton of track time. (2.5 hours or so if you want it) It would be nice to have some other race cars out there.

Ahhh... didn't recognize the username. Cool :)

I won't be at Jon's Feb event. Currently the CRX is in pieces and I'm in the process of starting up a Civic EX build. You're right that there's a ton of track time available... Jon runs a great event!


OK, then I have a two-piece front swaybar: two halves, sawed in the middle of the transverse part...oh, and the links aren't connected...and it's also made of Christian's fishing line, which is very, very, very small...

Same dance, different tune...


Oh, I know we're listening to the same music... honestly, I hadn't really thought about the fact that "substitution" is allowed but not removal. I guess it's time to go back thru and read the GCR with a more discriminating eye to the details.