ITR Integra Type-R

[JIgou]

I've come across what I think is a minor glitch in the ITR rules.

How I discovered it: I'm helping out with the prep of a 1998 Integra Type R for enduro racing.

In looking at online copy of the GCR, I see it only lists the Type-R as 1998-2001 - I'm assuming the printed version is the same. But there was a Type-R made in 1997.

Before I send the ITAC/CRB a quickie note saying "Please add the 1997, as it was the same car and must have been missed in the initial class setup," can anyone shed any light about why the '97 might not have been included? Any other details I should add in my note to help expedite the process?

Thanks!

Jarrod

[lateapex911]

Hmmm. I'm not the Honda expert, but I'd be willing to bet that it was an oversight when the class was created. Lots of cars, (V8s? no V8s?) other rules to discuss and a big concept to sell to the brass kept the ITR committee's attention spread thin. Are there any other differences from 97 to 98?

[Xian]

Aside from a rear hatch window wiper and slightly different nose/headlights there weren't any changes that I know of (I used to own a 2001 Type R). The headlights/nose thing were changed across the board on all 98 Integra's and they are all on the same "spec line". I don't see any reason why the 97 can't be included and modify the spec to 97-2001 (although there were no Type R's imported during 99).

Christian, who sometimes forgets how much "old skool JDM, yo" stuff he remembers.

[Z3_GoCar]

I was only pereferally involved with ITR, and am not a Honda/Acura expert. But weren't the heads custom ported on the earlier type-R's? I seem to remember this causing a policing issue with head porting.

James

[dj10]

I was only pereferally involved with ITR, and am not a Honda/Acura expert. But weren't the heads custom ported on the earlier type-R's? I seem to remember this causing a policing issue with head porting.

James

Wow! Factory ported heads....stock. There has to be some way to comfirm this before anyone would say yea or na I would think.

[JeffYoung]

Someone brought this up during the discussion on classing the car, but it wasn't why the 97 was "left off." It was merely an oversight. I think a letter is in order; at the same time I am doing a "clean up" of some of the gaps in the ITR ITCS (with the help of Josh Sirota and Earl Richards) and can simply add it in that way and see what they ITAC says.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Wow! Factory ported heads....stock. There has to be some way to comfirm this before anyone would say yea or na I would think.

"...The ports were also improved as each Type R engine is hand ported and polished by Honda's best and most skilled engineers. This allowed the port radius to exactly match the valve seat face allowing for almost no restriction of air flow. "

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=35

[Greg Amy]

Yup: *ALL* Acura Integra Type R's have hand-ported heads. That was one of the main sticking points for keeping them out of ITS, and one of the (several ) initiators behind the push for ITR...

[dj10]

"...The ports were also improved as each Type R engine is hand ported and polished by Honda's best and most skilled engineers. This allowed the port radius to exactly match the valve seat face allowing for almost no restriction of air flow. "

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=35

Great article AB, Thanks! WOW! What an engine. This looks like a maxed out engine, how could you improve upon this?:D I can't believe the revs of this. Hey if it fits in ITR bring it on. To bad it's a front wheel drive, I wouldn't trade my E46 M3 for one mind you, but it someone built one of these for the track, I'd love to take it around for quite a few laps.:) Do all the type R's have the B18c specR engine?
Good question though, how do you police this? But on the other hand how could you improve upon this engine even if you did more port work? I bet you'd probably reduce HP & torque if you messed with it. Wouldn't you think?

[Greg Amy]

Do all the type R's have the B18c specR engine?
Yup.


...how could you improve upon this engine even if you did more port work?
Probably wouldn't be able to. I've seen the inside of one of these, and they are SUH-WEET. 'Bout the only thing you could do is take away the very few compromises for the street, noise and emissions. I'd disassemble and pinpoint-blueprint it while adding 1/2 point compression (race gas ONLY), open up the exhaust as wide as possible to let it breathe (and play right at that 103dB edge), and dyno-tune the ECU for better top end.

I'm pretty confident it will NO WHERE make the power upgrades the IT process calls for. Best you can hope for is power from lower drag, slightly better breathing, and more compression, but that's about it.

Too bad they're pricey; I'd be tempted to try one. Hmmm, maybe we can find a wrecked-car drivetrain and rear wing to drop into Jeremy's ITS GS-R...

GA

[JeffYoung]

Others disagree, but I just don't see how the ITR and the Celica GT-S will be able to compete in R. No reason to exclude them, but they are down, down, down on power and torque and don't seem to be able to make any more.

[dj10]

Others disagree, but I just don't see how the ITR and the Celica GT-S will be able to compete in R. No reason to exclude them, but they are down, down, down on power and torque and don't seem to be able to make any more.

I'm sure if they are down on power they would also be down on weight. Can they run their weight and be competitive? Aren't the Honda's going faster in ITS from the 150#'s they were able to lose under the weight ruke change?

[JeffYoung]

The Celica, and less so the ITR, are in ITR are pretty light weights -- might be hard for them to get there.

But the real issue is torque. This isn't like the ITS RX7 that is down say 50 ft lbs to the class leaders. These cars will be down 100 ft lbs and MORE to a Z32 or a Supra or a 3.0 BMW. Not sure the process adequately deals with that, but I have no real dog in the fight. I just wouldn't build one; I hope others do.

[dj10]

The Celica, and less so the ITR, are in ITR are pretty light weights -- might be hard for them to get there.

But the real issue is torque. This isn't like the ITS RX7 that is down say 50 ft lbs to the class leaders. These cars will be down 100 ft lbs and MORE to a Z32 or a Supra or a 3.0 BMW. Not sure the process adequately deals with that, but I have no real dog in the fight. I just wouldn't build one; I hope others do.

From all of this, getting back to the original subject of adding the year 1997, I see no reason not to add it. So I guess the ITAC should put in for the correction if they agree.

[Greg Amy]

...I just don't see how the ITR and the Celica GT-S will be able to compete in R.
Hmmm, I wonder...

Fastest ITR time at the ARRC was 1:39.108, Taylor Robertson. Fastest ITA Integra time was Kevin Ruck's 1:43.021 (fastest ITA time was Bob Moser in the CRX, 1:42.388).

Take that ITA car, drop 85 pounds, and add probably 75 horsepower (~+50%!) and bigger brakes...you don't think that car can drop up to three seconds off its lap times...? Granted, ITR will probably continue to get faster, but how much so? Best ITS time was 1:39.5, and they *just now* surpassed the lap records of the E36 in the "old" ITS trim (which is now in ITR...)

At the IT Fest '07, compare Huffmaster's best Sunday time of 1:43.067 to Joe Moser's 1:43.077! What do you think an uncorked E36 would do there...?

Food for thought.

[spnkzss]

Hmmm, I wonder...

Fastest ITR time at the ARRC was 1:39.108, Taylor Robertson. Fastest ITA Integra time was Kevin Ruck's 1:43.021 (fastest ITA time was Bob Moser in the CRX, 1:42.388).

Take that ITA car, drop 85 pounds, and add probably 75 horsepower (~+50%!) and bigger brakes...you don't think that car can drop up to three seconds off its lap times...? Granted, ITR will probably continue to get faster, but how much so? Best ITS time was 1:39.5, and they *just now* surpassed the lap records of the E36 in the "old" ITS trim (which is now in ITR...)

At the IT Fest '07, compare Huffmaster's best Sunday time of 1:43.067 to Joe Moser's 1:43.077! What do you think an uncorked E36 would do there...?

Food for thought.

I appologize for the hijack, but I've been wondering this all year. How come the BMWs barely got under the ITS times which didn't happen till the end of the year. Where they ITS cars just that well prepared? If so, aren't the same fundimentals in the S car the same in R?

Watching that kinda concerns me since I'm switching from C to A with the same type of chassis. Hope not to be doing C times in A :p

[JamesB]

Rob, I think your issue is less of one. We already know that chasis will work well in A.

[dj10]

Hmmm, I wonder...

Fastest ITR time at the ARRC was 1:39.108, Taylor Robertson. Fastest ITA Integra time was Kevin Ruck's 1:43.021 (fastest ITA time was Bob Moser in the CRX, 1:42.388).

Take that ITA car, drop 85 pounds, and add probably 75 horsepower (~+50%!) and bigger brakes...you don't think that car can drop up to three seconds off its lap times...? Granted, ITR will probably continue to get faster, but how much so? Best ITS time was 1:39.5, and they *just now* surpassed the lap records of the E36 in the "old" ITS trim (which is now in ITR...)

At the IT Fest '07, compare Huffmaster's best Sunday time of 1:43.067 to Joe Moser's 1:43.077! What do you think an uncorked E36 would do there...?

Food for thought.
GA, I'll let you know in a few months when I get to Mid O. But I'm pretty damn sure it will faster than that. I think I'm finally on track with my suspension for this year.:cool:

[JeffYoung]

Yup, food for thought. Think about this though. The uncorked ITS BMW 325s were, what, 150 to 200 lbs more than an ITR 325? Plus, times were down this year right, due to the repave?

I suspect that when (no offense to Dan or Taylor or any of the other present ITR guys) fully developed ITR cars arrive on the scene, they will be several seconds at worst faster at Road Atlanta than the existing ITS record.

I co-drove an ITR 2.8 BMW Z3 at the 13 hour. I wasn't particularly fast, but my co-driver was, best lap of 2:16 or about the same as the 944S2 from teh week before. That was with an entirely stock motor and LOADS of suspension development left to do. Point? All R cars still have a ways to go to be fully developed I think.

[dj10]

Yup, food for thought. Think about this though. The uncorked ITS BMW 325s were, what, 150 to 200 lbs more than an ITR 325? Plus, times were down this year right, due to the repave?

I suspect that when (no offense to Dan or Taylor or any of the other present ITR guys) fully developed ITR cars arrive on the scene, they will be several seconds at worst faster at Road Atlanta than the existing ITS record.

I co-drove an ITR 2.8 BMW Z3 at the 13 hour. I wasn't particularly fast, but my co-driver was, best lap of 2:16 or about the same as the 944S2 from teh week before. That was with an entirely stock motor and LOADS of suspension development left to do. Point? All R cars still have a ways to go to be fully developed I think.

No offense taken Jeff.:D To correct you there is only a 85# difference from ITS (2850) to ITR (2765). I beleive a couple of seconds faster than ITS, depending on the track, not a few. IMO

[spnkzss]

Rob, I think your issue is less of one. We already know that chasis will work well in A.

I know, I was just joking. My differences is just mroe than just a few extra ponies. I jsut expected more from teh BMWs and was kinda disapointed. I can't figure out why it took them so long to get down to ITS times. I truly would like to know since my outsider understanding was they took weight and the restrictor plate away from the ITS BMWs and added wider wheels. I thought that was it.

[JeffYoung]

Rob, my guess is they will get there, quickly. The potential is obviously there, now someone needs to spend the big dollars and/or development time like BWorld did, like SS did, like Sunbelt did. Once they do, watch out.

[JamesB]

Well we already knew the local ones where top prep, they went ITR to run without the SIR. So I didnt expect times to change all that much. But other areas where people are just building cars and getting them up to tune you would see the improvement over time rather then day 1.

[erlrich]

I suspect that when... fully developed ITR cars arrive on the scene, they will be several seconds at worst faster at Road Atlanta than the existing ITS record.
Jeff I think you hit the nail square on the head; and I would add that I'd be willing to bet within 3-4 years the 325s will no longer be the "car to have". Someone is going to figure out which one is, and when a full-tilt version of that car shows up all hell is going to break loose. That's when you'll see the 3-4 second improvements over ITS times at the longer tracks like RA and VIR.

[Greg Amy]

That's when you'll see the 3-4 second improvements over ITS times at the longer tracks like RA and VIR.
Sure about that? Track records for Speed Touring - *quite* a step in development over ITR - are as follows:

Mid-Ohio, 1:32.946, 2007, Joey Hand in a BMW
Road Atlanta, 1:34.120, 2006, Curran in the RSX (rained in 2007)
VIR, none. "The 2008 event will mark only the second time in history the series has raced at the dazzling 3.27-mile road course." How long ago for the first time?

There's a STEEEEP ramp of diminishing returns as you approach WCTC capabilities...I really doubt that ITR cars can cut the deficit in half between ITS and WCTC. Call it one-third of the way, probably more like one-quarter?

[spnkzss]

So what your saying is ther eis a possibility that once you get to teh ITS/ITR level there may not be much of an improvement. At least not the kinds of improvement that you see going from B to A or A to S? I know everything limits somewhere and it is someone exponential. The ITR have strengths in some places and weakness in other in comparison to the S cars. I guess I jsut didn't see it at a stock S2000 type of level.

[Greg Amy]

At least not the kinds of improvement that you see going from B to A or A to S?
Exactly. There will be some improvement, of course, but I don't expect it to be a quantum leap.

...I jsut didn't see it at a stock S2000 type of level.Nor do I, really. The ITR's strength, such as it is, would be in a power-to-weight advantage that it would need to be competitive (just as it had versus the E36s in WCTC) and an ease in preparation (it's pretty much all been figured out for this chassis). The ITR in ITR (har-de-har) is 2535#, the second-lightest car in the class; the classified weight for the S2k is 3005#...and that's a lot of pork, oink, oink...the tried-and-true, all-figured-out E36 is 2765#.

In the end borne in a vacuum, which IT rules tend to be, ultimately results in that the car probably can't be competitive, by design.

But it would sure be fun tryin'...

[JeffYoung]

Total guess, but on power/torque tracks, like VIR and RA, I do think you will see a 3-4 second difference between S and R, just as you do between A and S. 250 rwhp is possible in some of these cars, and that is nothing to sneeze at on the long straights at VIR.

[erlrich]

Sure about that? Track records for Speed Touring - *quite* a step in development over ITR - are as follows:

Mid-Ohio, 1:32.946, 2007, Joey Hand in a BMW
Road Atlanta, 1:34.120, 2006, Curran in the RSX (rained in 2007)
VIR, none. "The 2008 event will mark only the second time in history the series has raced at the dazzling 3.27-mile road course." How long ago for the first time?

Yeahbut, what do you think those times would look like if they had been on Hoosiers? I'm sure those guys are getting everything they can out of those RA-1s, but in the end they're still RA-1s. I'd still be willing to bet that by 2010 ARRC ITR times will be in the 36s.

[JoshS]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

[spnkzss]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?


Right now as far as track record goes at Summit Point

ITS - 1:24.886
ITR - 1:25.596
T2 - 1:24.354

No I didn't get the ITS/ITR reversed. I know this is going to get decimated due to the new pavement.

[erlrich]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?
Josh - here's what I could find for track records:

VIR:
T2 - 2:12.63
ITS- 2:14.24

Mid-Ohio:
T2 - 1:42.09
ITS- 1:43.16

RA:
T2 - 1:38.40 (track record not found, this was the best time I could find browsing results for the past 4 years)
ITS- 1:39.56

If you could do as well or slightly better than T2 it looks like you would be in pretty good shape. That said, do you believe your Z3 is going to be one of the front runners in ITR (not saying it won't, just wondering)?

[JoshS]

Josh - here's what I could find for track records:
That said, do you believe your Z3 is going to be one of the front runners in ITR (not saying it won't, just wondering)?

Beats me. But I trust the process for the most part.

[dj10]

Beats me. But I trust the process for the most part.
Do you have many ITR cars out west?

[Z3_GoCar]

Coming from a T2 background and looking hard at my ITR car -- I'm shooting for ITR to match, or maybe SLIGHTLY better, T2 times. I can't speak to Road Atlanta but that's the basic target as far as I can tell. At your tracks, how do T2 times relate to ITS?

Hey Josh,

Check this out: http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=672769

0.2 seconds off of a T1 Vette

James

[JoshS]

Means nothing James ... you have to look at track records. In '06, we ran 1:31s in our T2 Subarus at Willow Springs, and the fastest T2 car was in the 1:30s. Obviously that T1 driver was not exactly flying.

Another example ... I was even closer than John was to a T1 Corvette at Infineon last year in the ITR car:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=643230

If you watch my in-car video (http://www.godoggoracing.org/gallery/v/Videos/2007/Infineon1.wmv.html) from that race, I was on his butt the whole time, except, of course, on the straights. And this was when I still had the stock exhaust and cats and muffler!

[JoshS]

Do you have many ITR cars out west?
Not yet. In '07 we had 2, both brand-new builds, here in NorCal and at least 1 (John Norris, in an ex-ITS BMW) in SoCal. I know of at least 2 more being built here in NorCal right now, and at least one under consideration in the Pacific Northwest.

[dj10]

Not yet. In '07 we had 2, both brand-new builds, here in NorCal and at least 1 (John Norris, in an ex-ITS BMW) in SoCal. I know of at least 2 more being built here in NorCal right now, and at least one under consideration in the Pacific Northwest.

There were 11 ITR cars that I could count between Pittsburgh and Atlanta, this doesn't count the 300zx or any other ITR cars that might be around New England area. That would be 2 - 944S2, 8- BMW E36 325's and a Z3. I'm sure hoping for more fresh meat this year. Oh and 1 Boxster in the process of being built.

[pimpm3]

I am the only one that I know of right now building a Celica GT-S for ITR. The car is almost to the point where I can start testing it. The car is by no means finished nor do I feel that it is maxed out. I have a set of Koni 2817's for the car, Camber plates front and rear and a speedway engineering rear bar, I have pretty much all of the components for a maxed out suspension. I have not weighed the car yet, but if I can make the process weight of 2380, the car should be pretty fast. With a header, an Intake and a 2.5 Inch Exhaust the car put down 185.5 at the wheels on a dyno dynamics dyno. I still have not done the computer but I feel that I can pick up a few extra whp with that mod.

If a 300ZX can make 250whp ( I don't know if that is even possible) and weighs 3250 that is 13 pounds per whp. The Celica at weight currently is at 12.83 lbs per WHP.

I am waiting for someone to bring out an RSX. I have seen k20's (RSX type-S Engine) make over 220 at the wheels with headers, and intake and K-pro (computer) all day long some even make more. At process weight that comes out to 12.11 lb per hp, even better then the Celica.

My friends Type-R with bolt ons and a computer made 197 WHP at process weight that is 12.83 lbs per hp exactly the same as the Celica.

If a 328 can make 225 at the wheels (my 1995 M3 with an Intake and an exhaust made 225 whp) then it would have 12.6 lb per hp so it is right in line with the Celica, RSX and the Type-R.

I think that part of the atraction of ITR is all of the different types of cars in the same class. A BMW makes power differently from a, Mustang which makes power differently from a 300ZX which is different from a 944, etc, etc... Obviously the lack of torque is a big issue for the high reving cars but that should be offset by their relative lack of abuse on brakes and tires. I guess we will have to see how it all works when we get the car on track next month.

[JeffYoung]

That is VERY impressive power for the 2ZZ motor. Good work on that. Maybe the car does have a solid chance...

[pimpm3]

We will see. I need to figure out how to drive the thing to its potential. It will be my first front driver so between getting it set up and figuring out how to drive it I will have my work cut out for me.

[Z3_GoCar]

Means nothing James ... you have to look at track records. In '06, we ran 1:31s in our T2 Subarus at Willow Springs, and the fastest T2 car was in the 1:30s. Obviously that T1 driver was not exactly flying.

Another example ... I was even closer than John was to a T1 Corvette at Infineon last year in the ITR car:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=643230

If you watch my in-car video (http://www.godoggoracing.org/gallery/v/Videos/2007/Infineon1.wmv.html) from that race, I was on his butt the whole time, except, of course, on the straights. And this was when I still had the stock exhaust and cats and muffler!

Hey Josh,

If you check here:

http://www.calclub.com/html/html2/archives/2007/willsprintracrec03_25_07.htm

John holds the record in ITS at 1:31.648 and ITR at 1:31.384, where as T2 is held by David Shotz at 1:32.785. I think John's already mostly there before the SIR debacle, and is back. But I saw he just ran in ITS last weekend.

James

[JoshS]

James, those records aren't right for T2. Check out the following:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=271080

The #75 and #23 were both faster than 1:32.785 in qualifying -- both on that same weekend that they show Schotz's record (from the race). Does CalClub not include qualifying sessions for track records?

[Andy Bettencourt]

None of the SCCA Regions up here recognize qual times for track records that I can think of....

[JoshS]

Interesting. I didn't know that. San Francisco Region maintains both qualifying and race records. It's about 50-50 about whether the qualifying record is faster than the race record.

[Z3_GoCar]

James, those records aren't right for T2. Check out the following:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=271080

The #75 and #23 were both faster than 1:32.785 in qualifying -- both on that same weekend that they show Schotz's record (from the race). Does CalClub not include qualifying sessions for track records?

Well Josh,

I surfed mylaps and the cal-club site, and I've only seen lap records set during a race. So down here, as far as the record book's are concerned, it's only what happens during the race.

I checked out your vid of following the vette. I think you know how I felt following Aaron Baily's Pontiac around, only he was in my class so our battle, brief as it was, was for a podium. I've got to rebuild for ITR and get out of ITE.

James

[JoshS]

So down here, as far as the record book's are concerned, it's only what happens during the race.Too bad. Conditions were awful for us during that race, with crazy-strong winds and cold temps -- it was much nicer in the morning sessions. That was the only time that we all went to WS in T2.

Aaron was very fun to race against when he was in T2. I have some great video from Thunderhill of him saving some serious slides ... good driver, nice kid.

[lateapex911]

Regarding the Toyota, interesting, veeeery interesting....
:birra:

[JeffYoung]

It is. The Lotus guys (same engine) don't see numbers like that from intake and exhaust, in fact most exhaust and intake other than stock lose a bit of power (from 160ish at the wheels). 185 is STRONG.

[pimpm3]

The motor is from a junkyard I bought it for $1500.00. 185 whp seems to be what other people are getting if you look on the new Celica websites. It is actually spot on what I was hoping for, when I decided to go with a Celica.

The sad thing is that It is actually down quite a bit compared with what a type-R engine of exactly the same size makes (197 whp) and a 2.0 Liter K20 in the RSX (220-230 whp). My original point was that it is in line with the HP to weight of the other cars in the class, even if they are severly down on torque, and not quite the underdog everyone thinks they are. Look at how well the type-r's faired against the bmw's in world touring.

[lateapex911]

BUT..........keep in mind World Touring rules and cars are VERY different form IT! First, teh engine rules are different for EACh car, and are often negotiated over through the years, or even months. Where one car may be allowed to run a certain cam, while another may have to stick with stock, and so on.

Secondly, the cars run sequential transmissions in many cases, and even though they carry a weight penalty, team members have opined they are a performance advantage, (for some cars more than others) not just a reliabilty issue.

And, the weights on World touring cars are in constant flux..

In other words, the administration adjusts the classes on a dynamic and constant basis, slowing certain cars and speeding others up...the results you see are not comparable to the "real world" or IT.

that said, I would LOVE to see a Celica duking it out with a E46!

[tnord]

me thinks you have an optimistic dyno operator.

197whp from an ITR in IT trim? seriously?

195*.83=162 in stock form.

[pimpm3]

197whp from an ITR in IT trim? seriously?

195*.83=162 in stock form.Actually stock ones usually put down between 175-180

As far as the 197WHP It is my friends car It has a hondata ECU, a DC Header, a cold air intake, and a 2.5 Inch exhaust. That is all it has done to it.

The dyno is a dyno dynamics which are very highly regarded. Here is a link to their specifications page. http://www.dyno.com.au/dyno/controller/specs/showAWD450DSQRPage

One would think that numbers are pretty high but I checked it with a 1/4 mile calculator thing online http://robrobinette.com/et.htm. The times were all with in 1 tenth of what the car actually ran.

[AntonioGG]

I owned a 1996 GSR from new until 2007 (sniff) it was a great car....and once you own a Honda 4 cylinder, you're spoiled for life...the shifter, the silkiness of the engine, the beating it took and kept on asking...stock 8k RPM meant I visited it often (the 118lbs-ft helps motivate you). I replaced a radiator, the ignition components regularly, oil pan gasket, and the speakers which after 10 years were a bit buzzy. The leather seats and interior were perfect still. The red paint was a bit faded and dinged. I also replaced the suspension with a Koni Sport coilover kit with adjustable shocks (in 2006). It only had 107k miles and I sold it for $3500...which is a gift, but it went to a good home.

The biggest problem with these cars are the brakes. Driving a Mazdaspeed3 as a daily driver now...wow! What a difference...but I miss the 8k RPM redline, and the shifter...the 280lbs-ft helps make up for most of it though. :D

Back on topic...IIRC the Type R was much more of a race car for the street than the later models. I believe the 97 didn't come with A/C or a radio, and very little if any sound dampening, but I think the rest of the car is the same as the other models except for minor difference.

Type R vs. GSR
Moly coated pistons
Stiffer valve springs
steeper cams
body bracing
Torsen
+ of course the aforementioned blueprinting, porting, and polishing done by the factory.

I agree that the car will probably never see the standard IT gains and will be an underdog in ITR, and probably belongs in ITS as a "turnkey" racer. Keep in mind that to go from 170HP in the GSR to the 19x in the Type R they had to do all the above things & the redline went from 8k RPM to 9k RPM, AND it lost 1lbs-ft with the mods. Having said all that, there's no reason the 97 shouldn't be listed.:023: