PDA

View Full Version : Event Tech Inspections



gran racing
01-08-2008, 01:20 PM
A part of what has made the ARRC a championship caliber event has been the racecar inspections (at least in previous years). I recognize that it’s not realistic to tear an engine apart, but there surly are items that can be checked. I also understand that depending upon which items are being inspected, it may involve additional costs. Todd also brought up the fact that inspections would also require additional volunteers to complete the tasks. Last year it really wasn’t feasible to perform these inspections, but why not this year? I’d like to use this thread to discuss what ways in which we can incorporate additional inspections to help ensure cars are legit.

To cover any additional costs to have these compliance checks, I’d be more than happy to pay an Improved Touring compliance fee of say $20 - $30.

Another idea is if a car is found to have an illegal part, impose the fee upon the car owner just like what would happen in a protest. If the tested part is legal, use the compliance fee to cover the associated cost.

Based on conversations from this year’s ARRC, checking proper gearing isn’t terribly difficult.

I’d LOVE to see a cam doctor at the event and be utilized. Maybe the national office would be willing to loan one?

Jake Gulick has mentioned this idea in the past: have several items that could be evaluated in a hat and the top X finishers would pick one or two.

Many inspections can even be preformed on Saturday – it’s not necessary to do this all on Sunday. What are other people’s thoughts on the subject? Any ideas how to expand upon the inspections?

Andy Bettencourt
01-08-2008, 02:27 PM
Great idea Dave. I would love to see:

Cam inspections
Throttle body inspections (where applicable)
Air intake inspections (air intake source verification, Air metering device in place and functional, etc)

tom91ita
01-08-2008, 02:53 PM
minmal intrusion and we could help each other as far as i am concerned.

if someone had a whistler for compression ratios, i would have no problem doing the checks on a "buddy" system where i and the person that finished behind me do mine, etc. i would help/witness the one in front. this might minimize the tech people required.

the above is somewhat "out of the box" but i also think could promote comradrie.

checking gearing the day before, fine.

for NASA nationals and doing the whistler/C.R., tech had wrenches there and we pulled the plug, etc. if we do the whistler, i would rather do the day before since the engine was quite hot after the main race.

pulling a cam the day before, not so fine.

i have never had a cam out of my car. i don't know if it is easy or not but do not want to find out the day before the main event and be re-assembling when the primary social hour takes place.

i also am not opposed to a $20 fee if it ensures viability of the event for 2008 or might be pledged to either tech equipment for the region or to be set aside for 2009 to ensure profitability for the future.

gran racing
01-08-2008, 03:04 PM
if someone had a whistler for compression ratios, i would have no problem doing the checks on a "buddy" system where i and the person that finished behind me do mine, etc. i would help/witness the one in front. this might minimize the tech people required. [/b]

That's an interesting idea - I like it. Maybe the top 5 cars work as a group to complete and perform this on their cars together. If there's a car in question, an official gets called over.

RacerBill
01-08-2008, 09:36 PM
I agree with Dave that we should be bumping tech up a notch or two this year to add real 'professionalism' to the event. I am not sure that I have the technical expertise to do some checks myself, however, the idea of teams working together sounds good.

I also like the idea of providing for a random specification to be checked, second place would draw for the first place finisher, third would draw for second, etc.

I think that impound should include the top five places and all five be required to present the cars with open hoods.

While I would not like to see anyone penalized for unauthorized preperation, I would like to see a tougher tech advertised and promoted to discourage the more creative teams before they arrive.

A real win-win situation would be for everyone to come thru squeeky clean!

R2 Racing
01-08-2008, 11:41 PM
We talked at great length about this last year, but I think it was all in the original discussions that got accidentally deleted.

I'll say what I said then. There are A LOT of "visual" things that can be checked for that are easy, quick, inexpensive, and non-invasive. They are rather quick, visual inspections that IMO are just as important as checking engine things. Ride height, camber adjusters, non-oem suspension arms, intakes, safety equipment, legal roll cage contruction, splitters, washer bottles (ok, that was a joke), etc. The ARRC checks the engine stuff, where they're better suited to do so in terms of man power, equipment, time availability, and having a convenient location to do it. At the IT Fest, we won't have any of that. IT CAN be quick and cheap, but still carry some serious weight to it. In my eight years of racing, I have yet to see suspension or ride height or anything like that checked, ever.

shwah
01-09-2008, 08:54 AM
I like what Kevin is saying. I have one friend that has had ride height checked, but he has run about 10,000 ITB races.

Gary L
01-09-2008, 09:54 AM
I like what Kevin is saying. I have one friend that has had ride height checked, but he has run about 10,000 ITB races. [/b] Which would contrast with my experience in MWDiv; in my second ever IT event last year, there was a quick ride height check of the top 3 finishing IT cars in every class, on their way to the scales. BTW, it doesn't take any equipment (nor a lot of time) to do this one... level ground and an empty (4.9") Coke can works nicely.

lateapex911
01-09-2008, 12:30 PM
That's funny Kev, because I have watched your car get it's ride height checked... ;)

tom91ita
01-09-2008, 01:05 PM
how about something similar to typical where we all park with our hoods up and in addition to the usual BS'ing about how the race went, we collectively inspect each other's cars with a checklist of the items Kev noted?

i would welcome other eyes looking at my car and the entire point would basically be friendly fact checking and helping make sure we are all safe / legal. and if any of us get a friendly notification here and do nothing before the ARRC, we should expect paper.

i think if we go into this with an expectation that we are all there to help each other, it will be kept pretty much social in nature and not confrontational.

lateapex911
01-09-2008, 02:40 PM
I was wondering, since this is a pretty big event, and it's participants have shown an unusual desire to show off their legal cars, if we shouldn't create an area of the paddock, (opposite where Phil had his tire rig, right in the middle)right where the cars come off the track, set up a tent (I'll provide if you want) and some scales (ditto, they've been used by SCCA pro at events), and check the top 5 cars for weight and ride height (a 4.95" block of something stable with a handle is all that's needed there), and roll every car into the area for a hoods up BS session?

Honestly, when i went to tech last year to be weighed, i stopped off at my trailer on the way to grab a drink..I could have easily had some weights to toss in the car, or who knows what. The scales are a long way off, and there is no real control of the cars once off the track.

(No worries, guys, my 16oz drink didn't make the difference..i was 30 or 40 over!)

R2 Racing
01-09-2008, 03:00 PM
That's funny Kev, because I have watched your car get it's ride height checked... ;)
[/b]
Do you have anything constructive to add? :D Actually, I think I do remember somebody taking a block of wood on the end of a stick and jamming it under my car sometime recently. Did they do that at the '07 ARRC? Wait...I didn't get impounded at the '07 ARRC. Hell, I don't know. Whatever. It's still a good idea. :P

I personally do not like the idea of the competitors policing eachother. I went through that with NASA and hated it. People have close friends within the race, which means those friends have biased opinions (i.e. a pre-chosen "side"). Unbiased officials with a right vs. wrong job to do is the only way.

lateapex911
01-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Do you have anything constructive to add? :D Actually, I think I do remember somebody taking a block of wood on the end of a stick and jamming it under my car sometime recently. Did they do that at the '07 ARRC? Wait...I didn't get impounded at the '07 ARRC. Hell, I don't know. Whatever. It's still a good idea. :P
. [/b]

Actually, it was at the 06 ARRCs...all cars got the block of wood treatment. you were probably busy accepting too many congratulations to notice...
;)

dominojd
01-09-2008, 05:29 PM
Actually, it was at the 06 ARRCs...all cars got the block of wood treatment. you were probably busy accepting too many congratulations to notice...
;)
[/b]

Actually this year at the ARRC they had 1n 1.5 pvc Y with a piece of pipe sticking out of the Y part and were jamming it under cars.

shwah
01-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Which would contrast with my experience in MWDiv; in my second ever IT event last year, there was a quick ride height check of the top 3 finishing IT cars in every class, on their way to the scales. BTW, it doesn't take any equipment (nor a lot of time) to do this one... level ground and an empty (4.9") Coke can works nicely.
[/b]
Well he does race in Mid-Div. Maybe that exlpains it. Regardless I like the idea of checking what can be checked easily, and maybe pick one more significant 'wild card' on the weekend of the event to check.

Cams would be awesome.

gran racing
01-09-2008, 05:47 PM
Could someone explain what the process is to check cams using a cam doctor? Even for me, it doesn't seem all that difficult to take a cam out of the car although I could be wrong. (I'd want to do that after Sunday's event in case I'm proven that it's harder to put back in properly. LOL)

Gary L
01-09-2008, 06:35 PM
Could someone explain what the process is to check cams using a cam doctor? Even for me, it doesn't seem all that difficult to take a cam out of the car although I could be wrong. (I'd want to do that after Sunday's event in case I'm proven that it's harder to put back in properly. LOL)
[/b] Let me guess... your mechanical experience is limited to overhead cam engines, right??? :D

gran racing
01-09-2008, 06:50 PM
That's putting it mildly! :lol: I can usually take stuff apart then put it back together again without there being too many extra parts.

TAC
01-09-2008, 09:50 PM
Dave,

Thanks for starting this topic. Our chief of Tech is reading your comments and ideas.

Todd

924Guy
01-10-2008, 09:22 AM
Let me guess... your mechanical experience is limited to overhead cam engines, right??? :D
[/b]

Doh! Good point!

Even on my SOHC engine, it's not that easy to pull the cam... does the cam doctor require removal of the cam then, or only access? It would be easy to set up a dial gauge on the cam while installed...

I'm also interested in hearing how the cam doctor works... didn't get to see it happen at the 07 ARRC...

Grumpy
01-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Cam must be removed from car.

http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-69.html

RSTPerformance
01-10-2008, 12:16 PM
Dave-

I like the idea of having items tossed into a hat and drawing for what is checked on your car.

To all-

One issue to discuss... If it is not in the supps can the tech inspector make you "tear down" your engine for inspection? (By "tear down" I mean anything that is a cost to the racer. This could be including taking off the valve cover or oil pan (thier is a cost required to replace gaskets), but not taking out a spark plug wich can simply be screwed back in.

The reason I ask this is that if A racer protests B racer then A racer must agree to pay the cost associated with the work IF B racer is found legal. If A racer is not a racer but a tech inspector who pays when B racer is legal?

The other issue, when you are required to do a tear down in a protest the specific items are identified and sealed before the race at the time that the protest is made. Can you make these requirements after a race is complete?

If it is in the supps then it is an expected expence, similar to paying for damage track property (guardrails) at certain tracks. I think that is how the Runoffs and ARRC justifies it, but I am not sure at other events.

Just some thoughts for discussion...

Raymond

tom91ita
01-10-2008, 01:24 PM
cam doctors as far as i know look like these:

http://www.performancetrends.com/cam_test_stand.htm

x-ring
01-10-2008, 05:00 PM
One issue to discuss... If it is not in the supps can the tech inspector make you "tear down" your engine for inspection? (By "tear down" I mean anything that is a cost to the racer. This could be including taking off the valve cover or oil pan (thier is a cost required to replace gaskets), but not taking out a spark plug wich can simply be screwed back in.

The reason I ask this is that if A racer protests B racer then A racer must agree to pay the cost associated with the work IF B racer is found legal. If A racer is not a racer but a tech inspector who pays when B racer is legal?[/b]

I thought you white-polo-shirt-and-kahki-slacks steward types knew everything? :D



From 5.9.3.C: The Chief Steward may also order the removal of a wheel or intake choke(s) or restrictors during impound. These inspections are not subject to the fees outlined in section 5.12.2.C.5.

5.12.2.C.5: (The Chief Steward may) At his or her discretion and without necessarily receiving a request to do so, order disassembly and inspection of any entered car to ascertain its conformance with the GCR. If the car is found to be eligible for the competition in which it is entered, the race organizers shall stand the expense of the disassembly, inspection, and reassembly. If it is not eligible, the entrant shall bear the expense, in addition to whatever penalties the SOM may direct after receiving the Chief Steward’s report.[/b]

So, except for removing a wheel (?) or measuring the choke or intake restrictor, the region may end up on the hook for the cost, if the car is compliant.



I like the idea of having items tossed into a hat and drawing for what is checked on your car.[/b]

Good luck convincing the CS that's a good idea, unless all the items in the hat won't cause the region to put out much/any cash if/when the cars are found compliant.



The other issue, when you are required to do a tear down in a protest the specific items are identified and sealed before the race at the time that the protest is made. Can you make these requirements after a race is complete?[/b]

Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking if a protest can be filed post-race? The answer to that is no. Can a protest be changed after it is filed? Yes, but only to withdraw items from the list of protested items.

If you're asking can the items to be checked in impound be changed post-race, the answer is maybe. You ARE aware that the impound plans are (supposed to be, anyway) approved by the CS before the event starts, aren't you? OTOH, see 5.12.2.C.5. If the CS decides while watching you drive around the track that he wants to inspect your wrist pins, when you roll in we'll be having a look at your wrist pins (at his cost, if you're compliant).

In other words, the scrutineer can't look at anything the CS doesn't pre-approve*, but the CS can decide at any time that he wants the scrutineer to look at something.

*One exception to that: If the scrutineer discovers a non-compliant part during the course of inspecting some other part of a car, he (the scrutineer) is permitted to, and should, refer that to the CS for action.

x-ring
01-10-2008, 06:15 PM
While I’m at it, I may as well share what I know about inspecting cams.

I’ve checked cams three ways; with a caliper, with a degree wheel and dial indicator, and with a cam doctor (well, I’ve watched while Jeremy used the cam doctor).

With a caliper all you can check is lift. I’ve never found a cam out of compliance this way. Adding a degree wheel and indicator allows you to check duration. I found one out of spec cam that way, but don’t check them that way anymore (it takes too long). When you switch over to the cam doctor, you can check all of that, plus the intake / exhaust lobe relationship and, in some cases, the gear to lobe relationship. This is where you find out of spec cams. Generally speaking, no one runs substantially more lift than allowed; it’s too easy to find. There’s power to be had in out of spec duration or timing though, for sure, which isn’t so easy to verify.

Keep in mind though that all the data you need to verify that a cam really is stock may not be in the FSM. That’s why you have to send a ‘known’ stock cam to Topeka along with the cam in question, if you want Jeremy to pass judgment on it (unless it is a Miata cam – he knows all about those). The FSM will generally tell you about the lift and duration, but may not tell you everything you need to know to measure the timing.

FWIW.

lateapex911
01-10-2008, 07:57 PM
Right...and in the case of the cam doctor, it must have a, as Ty points out, a"known good example" for comparision. So, using the doctor at an event is a tall order.
"Well, I'll just buy a Borgward type R cam, 'cuz I KNOW that rat bastard in my class has a cheating cam, and I'll bring it with me", won't fly, because that is open to evidence tampering. All parts must be procured by the stewards, as they are disinterested parties.

TAC
01-10-2008, 08:37 PM
Ty,

Are you gonna make it to Mid O. this year?

x-ring
01-10-2008, 09:29 PM
Right...and in the case of the cam doctor, it must have a, as Ty points out, a"known good example" for comparision. So, using the doctor at an event is a tall order.
"Well, I'll just buy a Borgward type R cam, 'cuz I KNOW that rat bastard in my class has a cheating cam, and I'll bring it with me", won't fly, because that is open to evidence tampering. All parts must be procured by the stewards, as they are disinterested parties.
[/b]

Right-O. Which brings up this question: Where do you find a 'known good example' of, say, a 510 cam for comparison purposes? I doubt your local Datsun dealer will have one. You, the techie, are then left to using a caliper, indicator and degree wheel. Hmm, anybody think that will fly with the COA, especially if it's close?

I've never discussed this with Jeremy, but I wonder if he has data for some common cams, other than Miatas?

Again, FWIW.



Ty,

Are you gonna make it to Mid O. this year?
[/b]

Too soon to tell, but unless I can bum a ride with someone probably not.

Two blown up engines this year has severly cut in to my racing budget, and I already promised Toni C. that I'd work the runoffs at least one more time.

Anybody know where I can get a good deal on a set of pistons? And bearings? And a clutch? And a timing set? And... :blink: :blink:

lateapex911
01-11-2008, 02:57 AM
Jeremy is building up a library of cams. Not sure what he has, but I am pretty sure theres a ITA CRX cam in that data base, and others, I bet....

Joe Moser
01-11-2008, 09:33 AM
Not sure what he has, but I am pretty sure theres a ITA CRX cam in that data base, and others, I bet....
[/b]

There ought to be "known" ITA CRX cams in the database, we were "Cam Doctored" 3 times last year!!

Seriously though, its an easy enough process, however there MUST be a "known" cam at the event or a good database. At the NASA event, the Cam Doctor operator didn't know how to work the contraption and created a lot more questions than he needed to... which were cleared up once they brought in a guy who had a lot of experience with it.

I agree with Kevin, there are plenty of areas on the car to check legality that are simple. NASA had a pretty good system in that they would check legality of random things after each session (Practice, Qualifying, Race...didn't matter). They saved the real tear downs until after the Championship race (i.e. Removing Cams/Head). After the second practice on the warm-up day, they checked my intake manifold, ride height. I believe they ran the Whistler on my dad's car after qualifying. It was all quick and relatively well organized (except for the Cam Doctor operator not knowing how to work the thing, as well as not having "known" good cams). At the ARRC, tech checked Gear Ratios rather efficiently... didn't look like it took much to do (competitors just had to provide their Final Drive gear ratio).

Oh yeah, public, open-hood line-ups?? No way :) Lets keep it official. Its not fair to the teams that put all the time, money, and effort into developing their vehicles, only to let all competitors have open access to the set-ups/development for free. Not to mention, competitors are not always rules experts, technical experts, and are far too often, incredibly biased :) There are already existing processes in place to allow complete, 100% access to any part of any single competitors car...

Rabbit07
01-11-2008, 09:51 AM
To comment on the Cam removal. On the Neon SOHC Engine I have to remove the head to remove the cam. A real pain if you ask me. Not to mention that there is some slop in the cam gear to cam by design. I have to degree the cam everytime I take it out. Lets keep the checks to the things that are not intrusive for this event and save the tear downs for the ARRC.

My $.02

gran racing
01-11-2008, 11:33 AM
Joe, I don't understand this one.


Its not fair to the teams that put all the time, money, and effort into developing their vehicles, only to let all competitors have open access to the set-ups/development for free. [/b]

Being able to look into an engine bay is a far cry from having access to what you've donefor your engine development program or what your suspension design is. I personally have no problems with anyone looking at my engine due to fears they'll walk away with all of the Kessler Engineering secrets. For some people having an "all hoods open" might make them nervous if they've done something illegal, but we know that 99% of the items can't be seen by mearly having the hood open. It is one small very easy step we can take. I don't care if the tech stewards simply peer into engine bays and day dream - the competitor doesn't necessarily need to know that and it just might deter someone a bit from doing something stupid. Just my opinion of course.

lateapex911
01-11-2008, 12:24 PM
We had an open hood impound at a race early one season I think a year or so ago that I was just spectating at, and i chuckled as I walked around...illegal ram air, illegal cold air intakes (Not many Hondas have holes in the header panel cut with a device that leaves slag from the factory, right?), questionable lawnmower sized batts and funky looking engine mounts.......

More recent open hood impounds have been better.

Joe Moser
01-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Joe, I don't understand this one.
[/b]

I can't have everyone being able to look at our supercharged B18C's under the hood! :P

Honestly, I am opposed to an Open-Hood policy because it is a questionable benefit. As you've said, 99% of legality concerns can not be found by merely looking under the hood.

My concerns:
- Very low benefit (motorcycle batteries, ram air? - these can be found on the top cars at a regular impound)
- Competitors feel entitled to crawl all over my car (i.e. I don't want to babysit my ride after the race!)
- We have an official rules process for this for a reason (i.e. Protest and Top 3 tear-downs)

I just don't think this helps with the "fun" part of the event. Do you think the guy who finishes 23rd is going to want to go sit by his car for 30 minutes after a race and watch while his fellow competitors try and find something illegal... Sounds like it would create the opposite of friendship with some competitors (this does not include IT.com people - obviously people here are more friendly and want to have more of a family in the IT community).

Doesn't bother me though, I'm hoping that my car will be torn down anyways with a top-3 finish!

Just my opinion... if the masses speak and we need open-hood... fine. Whatever it takes to win I guess :)

x-ring
01-11-2008, 04:04 PM
There ought to be "known" ITA CRX cams in the database, we were "Cam Doctored" 3 times last year!!
[/b]
Known? You mean known to be compliant or...? :026:

J/K dude. You made it too easy.