PDA

View Full Version : Such a thing as a daily driver that tows?



Campbell
12-16-2007, 06:17 PM
I am trying to figure options for my next vehicle.. I have a 2100 lb ITB that I have been towing with a tow dolly and my wife's Volvo wagon.. I would like to get a trailer to get the race car off the road. So, I can't afford to have a vehicle to just tow with, I would like something that is good on gas as a daily driver and also tow the race car on a trailer. It is just my wife and I so I don't need a "people hauler". I have never had a truck or SUV before so am not familiar with the plus's or minus's. Just what do I need to tow with? thanks

dickita15
12-16-2007, 06:58 PM
Many of the midsize SUV’s or small pickups will tow 4000 – 5000 pounds. You may want to search for the thread on using minivans. One big help would be to spend a little more for a decent aluminum trailer. The 500 pounds saving can be huge.

lateapex911
12-16-2007, 07:58 PM
I have a friend who tows his 2700 pound GT2 car won an aluminum trailer behind his VW Toureg. Seems happy with it.

JoshS
12-16-2007, 08:19 PM
I have a friend who tows his 2700 pound GT2 car won an aluminum trailer behind his VW Toureg. Seems happy with it.
[/b]
The Touareg is rated at a nice 7700 lbs. But unfortunately it doesn't get mileage any better than many real tow vehicles which was a requirement for the OP. Of course, it blows away the mileage of my 8.1L gas Suburban!

Jake
12-16-2007, 09:25 PM
Most people on this forum will most likely suggest something that is far overkill.

Dick is right on target. Get yourself an aluminum trailer and you'll be able to have a MUCH better daily driver.

Most car based SUV's will tow 3500lbs very well and safely. If you get a lightweight trailer you could stay under 3500lbs and get yourself something like a Toyota Highlander (which is really just a Camry Wagon) or Honda Pilot (ever wondered what happened to the Accord Wagon?)

I don't know what your price range is, but there are plenty of other good vehicles that fit the bill. If you are a Volvo lover you can get an XC90. I once travelled thousands of miles towing my MR2 on an aluminum trailer with a Lexus RX400h (Hybrid). Without the slightest problem. (and got 16mpg doing my usual extra-legal speeds)

If you think you'll be above that weight - a Nissan Pathfinder or Toyota 4Runner will do the trick.

Anything else is just wasting gas.

Jake

eMKay
12-16-2007, 11:08 PM
Aluminum trailer or keep the dolly + Minivan = B)

gran racing
12-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Jake, I know you've mentioned the Pathfinder to us a bunch of times. If one didn't have an aluminum trailer and a heavier car (2450 lbs), the weight quickly exceeds the 5,000 towing capacity rating with 8 tires, tool boxes, other gear.... I realize that is a rating primarily for cooling, but for longer tows it makes me nervous. It sounds like it would fit into Cambell's needs though with his lighter car.

Oh, there's also my need to fit two dogs (one rather big one) behind the rear seats.

JeffYoung
12-17-2007, 10:53 AM
While I agree most people go overkill with a tow vehicle, let me suggest the flip side.

4 door pickups with diesels are now excellent daily drivers. I went from a 3/4 ton Suburban that got 10 mph to a new Dodge 2500 diesel pick up, with 4 doors and a short bed. The Dodge is still big, but shorter than the Burb, seats 5 comfortably, is parkable in mall parking lots, etc. and gets 20 mph unladen, 14 mpg towing.

Yes, it's way bigger than a Pilot, etc. but the gas mileage is decent, the bed is handy and it has the extra towing capacity if you ever need it. Plus, you can get one NEW for low 30s, and a year or two old one for mid to low 20s. The Ford diesels are even nicer inside, and the Chevys aren't bad either.

Just avoid duallies and long beds. They are what make the truck unusable as a daily driver.

tom_sprecher
12-17-2007, 11:15 AM
While I agree most people go overkill with a tow vehicle, let me suggest the flip side.

4 door pickups with diesels are now excellent daily drivers. I went from a 3/4 ton Suburban that got 10 mph to a new Dodge 2500 diesel pick up, with 4 doors and a short bed. The Dodge is still big, but shorter than the Burb, seats 5 comfortably, is parkable in mall parking lots, etc. and gets 20 mph unladen, 14 mpg towing.

Yes, it's way bigger than a Pilot, etc. but the gas mileage is decent, the bed is handy and it has the extra towing capacity if you ever need it. Plus, you can get one NEW for low 30s, and a year or two old one for mid to low 20s. The Ford diesels are even nicer inside, and the Chevys aren't bad either.

Just avoid duallies and long beds. They are what make the truck unusable as a daily driver.
[/b]

+1

joeg
12-17-2007, 11:38 AM
Diesels do not make good daily drivers--and I own one.

The best DD race haulers were my Dodge Dakota Crew Cabs. Good size, good mileage (no HEMI) and it also had 4WD.

My Duramax Silverado does not fit into the parking ram0 at work.

pballance
12-17-2007, 11:38 AM
FWIW, I am lucky as I have a choice of DD's, Mazda RX8 and Chevy 2500 Duramax diesel. The chevy gets better mileage 20+ around town, 17+ towing with a hypertech. Not as nimble as the 8 but better fuel mileage and is pretty easy to manuver around town. No worse than the 'Suburban I replaced. BTW the 'Burb got a whopping 14 mpg on the highway and around 7-9 towing, even with an aluminum trailer.

I think you will find a diesel truck to be pretty nice for a daily driver and you can get a pretty good return on your money when you get ready to sell it especially if you buy used to start with.

tom_sprecher
12-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Diesels do not make good daily drivers--and I own one.
[/b]

Do you say that because it does not fit in the parking deck at work or is there something more applicable to what the majority of people have to deal with?

Just curious.

gran racing
12-17-2007, 01:16 PM
I've found my pick-up to be very useful around the house, much more so than I would have ever guessed. Mulch, dump runs, trips to Home Depot, you name it. The one downside is your gear is exposed when attending a racing event making the any nights at hotels a bit...hopeful no one takes anything. It is nice to be able to just throw whatever in the truck bed and not worry about it hurting it nor trying to keep it clean.

JamesB
12-17-2007, 02:11 PM
Dave if your worried about that, buy a used cap or hard cover. I have just a soft cover for my bed, and I keep everything clothes and electronics in the cab of the truck. But the cover is enough to keep tires and tools from dissapearing while parked somewhere.

joeg
12-17-2007, 02:15 PM
Do you say that because it does not fit in the parking deck at work or is there something more applicable to what the majority of people have to deal with?

Just curious.


Tom--Besides the current price of Diesel, I would say it is more my parking ramp that makes my Diesel a non-candidate as a DD

gran racing
12-17-2007, 03:05 PM
I actually looked into that James, but need something to transport my pups (60 & 120 lbs) in addition to the baby. Oh yeah, my wife too. :) Sorry Campbell, didn't mean to hijack this but am in a similar position except need room for others.

shwah
12-17-2007, 03:36 PM
I have no idea the budget you are working with, but I also know some folks that use a Touareg to tow race/track cars. Note that the V6 has the same towing capacity as the V8 truck, and will likely return better mileage. The v10 diesel gets decent mileage and can haul plenty w/500+ lb-ft torque, but costs $60k+

I think I heard that the Audi Q7 (lwb version of T-reg) will be offered with a v6 diesel.

I have seen guys tow with Jeep Grand Cherokee, and did tow with a Jeep Cherokee. If you go this route - get a dual axle trailer, and don't skimp on weight distributing and sway control equipment.

A buddy tows his 11 second drag racing Golf with a Eurovan (24v VR6 engine) and says it works very well - rated at 5000lb towing capacity.

erlrich
12-17-2007, 04:28 PM
FWIW, I tow my 2,500 lb ITA car with an '03 Frontier and a 16' open trailer (steel/wood bed), and it does just fine. For the mileage it gets though (12 towing, 17 otherwise) I would just as well have gotten a full-sized Tundra or Titan. I would imagine either the Dakota and Tacoma are about as bad. It is nicer as a d/d; even with the crew cab and 6' bed it isn't much, if any, harder to drive than your typical SUV.

gsbaker
12-17-2007, 06:29 PM
I have seen guys tow with Jeep Grand Cherokee, and did tow with a Jeep Cherokee.[/b]
I've towed about 3,500# on a single axle trailer with a Grand Cherokee and it performed well.

Mileage for the older models was not as good as the newer models, but if you are not putting that many miles on it the lower cost of an older SUV (any make/model) may make up the difference.

JoshS
12-17-2007, 06:41 PM
4 door pickups with diesels are now excellent daily drivers. I went from a 3/4 ton Suburban that got 10 mph to a new Dodge 2500 diesel pick up, with 4 doors and a short bed. The Dodge is still big, but shorter than the Burb, seats 5 comfortably, is parkable in mall parking lots, etc. and gets 20 mph unladen, 14 mpg towing.
[/b]

Sorry, this is off-topic, that doesn't make sense. There is no 4-door full-size pickup that's smaller than a Suburban.

An '04 Suburban 2500 (like mine) has 130" WB, 219" overall length.
An '08 Dodge Ram 2500 QC SB has 141" WB, 228" overall length.

So just which part of the Dodge is shorter than the Suburban?

It's true that my Suburban 2500 with the 8.1L and 4.10 gears gets bad mileage -- I get about 13 unladen on the highway, 11.5 around town, and about 8 with the big trailer. But it's way better to drive around town and tows almost as well as the Duramax diesel truck it replaced.

But none of this helps the original poster. I agree that if he's willing to go with a lightweight open trailer, a good mid-size SUV will work great. In my opinion, the thing to avoid is short wheelbases. Long wheelbase makes for towing stability. Heavier tow vehicles are good too (but not so good for gas mileage).

JeffYoung
12-18-2007, 08:12 AM
It is on topic, in the sense that subjectively, I think the new diesel trucks in Quad Cab form with a short bed and a single rear wheel make decent daily drivers.

Subjectively, I had a 99 2500 Suburban and it was a cantakerous, unreliable piece of crap. While the Dodge may be 8" longer, it - to me - feels smaller (perhaps due to the smaller cab), and seems easier to maneuver in parking lots. It's more comfortable, more reliable so far, and gets nearly twice the fuel mileage.

The 00s and up Suburbans are better vehicles, but I prefer the open bed utility when coupled with a closed trailer.

"A daily driver that tows" is the topic, and the answer is subjective.

Campbell
12-18-2007, 11:26 AM
The mid size SUV and aluminum trailer sound like the best alternative to me.. I never knew that diesels got such good gas mileage. That does give me a whole new perspective. thanks

Ron Earp
12-18-2007, 12:36 PM
Americans over-tow. You don't need a large truck, diesel, or any of that for recreational towing using an open trailer setup.

I use a Lightning with a 20ft enclosed and it works great. I like driving the truck daily, fun/fast, and it is comfortable. Like some of the others I've found a truck indispensable for racing and around the home.

But I second and third some of the comments about getting a mid-size SUV using that for commuting. I think you'd be fine.

Heck, on second thought maybe we should make IT more interesting. We could make it so that racers should be forced to tow to the track with a tow vehicle that is period and brand correct. I'd have to use a 70s Datsun truck, you wankel guys would have to use that wankel truck Mazda made. Honda people would be forced to tow with a CVCC Civic. Jeff would have to use a British truck and wouldn't ever make it.

Might help out the domestic car counts in IT! Suddenly that 70s Monza doesn't look so bad when considered with tow vehicle.

Gary Gentry
12-19-2007, 11:25 AM
Careful Ron,

Any proposal that would not allow Jeff to make it is likely to move him to start speaking in tongues again

JeffYoung
12-19-2007, 04:29 PM
Up zag! Slippemnor mi sassa du raddlerollem.

I hesitate to even mention this.....

I bought a new Dodge diesel tow vehicle Christmas last year. Best racing purchase ever. Great truck.

BUT, before settling on it, I actually looked at, negotiated over and nearly bought a 1985 Range Rover six wheel conversion with a four speed manual transmission and no a/c.

I can only imagine what my race season would have been like last year towing to races with that thing. Or not towing, as the case may be.

To get back on topic, that is NOT a viable option as a daily driver.

erlrich
12-19-2007, 05:05 PM
Here is the solution: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-35-Milita...tem110206497655 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-35-Military-6x6-Truck-M35-A2-Duece-and-a-Half_W0QQitemZ110206497655QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 110206497655) just put the car IN the truck, you won't even need a trailer. Maybe not the best mileage, but it will get the same mpg whether it's empty or full.

With all the money you save you can go out and buy a Yaris or Versa to go for groceries, and your total fuel comsumption will still average out to 35mpg :D

BlueStreak
12-19-2007, 07:40 PM
I'm really pleased with my half ton yukon XL as a DD. I went on the low end of tow capacity to help fuel economy, 5.3L with 3.42 gear. Tows 5k lbs great, with lots of room inside, and it's covered.

Works great for taking the whole family somewhere as well!

Mileage sucks, 13 in town unloaded, 20 on the road unloaded, 15 towing on the road.

60k miles on it, and, knock on wood, nothing on it has broke yet.

Spinnetti
12-19-2007, 09:30 PM
I've struggled with that for years.. I tried a full sized Ford and Chevy (hated them - clumsy and gas guzzlers), Astro van (nice form factor, but hated it - broke all the time), 4runner.. worked fine, but but didn't like it that much over all and handled sloppy, custom drive on car hauler - worked great but an eyesore, and not something to drive to work!. Basically I hate driving trucks unless I'm 4-wheeling.

Anyway, after lots of experimentation, we use my wifes V6 VW Touareg. Works great and can't even tell you are pulling anything. My trailer was custom made and only 900lb or so single axle with electric brakes. Its lighter than any aluminum one I've seen, and 1/6th the cost. Prolly gonna stick with this combo, and the wife loves the Touareg. Another alternative for me is a used Lexus LS400 if you like cars over trucks, but repair bills are whopping (wrecked mine).

Jake
12-19-2007, 10:53 PM
LOL - I love it. Diesel HD trucks to pull a little car on an open trailer. :blink:

For the record, I test these things and the very BEST ones out there ride like crap, have stopping distances that border on dangerous, and are a b%t@h to fit in any parking lot (let alone a garage). And if you think you're saving money on gas - they don't do any better without a load than a gas powered light duty full-size truck. (EPA won't tell you that because they're EXEMPT from that and other silly safety regs). And don't forget that the Diesel is usually a $6-$7,000 option!

Don't get me wrong - there's a place for these things. If you tow over 10,000lbs on a regular basis - by all means go for it. Or maybe if you have a relentless desire to drive a garbage truck... :rolleyes:

Heck, in Europe they routinely carry 3-5,000lbs with CARS. Believe me, they race there plenty and nobody drives full-sized pickups.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/volvo/volvo_images/volvo_v50_27_09_06.jpg

JeffYoung
12-19-2007, 11:22 PM
Thanks for being an ass!

The new Ford and Dodge diesels stop way better than the last generation Burb I owned, and as well as most mid size SUVs I've driven. Ride just fine, for me. Easy enough to park if you can drive. Dodge Cummins is low $30s if you look around.

Opinions are like assholes -- some people have two!

mlytle
12-21-2007, 12:50 AM
the OP needs to decide what he wants in a trailer and what his budget is. we can toss out tv options all day, but the entering arguement for what will work best is what the heck is he going to tow? how big, open or closed and how much does it weight (with all the racing junk). with that info, an appropriate recommendatoin can be made.

and 4dr full sized diesel trucks make crappy daily drivers unless you live in the boonies. loud, too big for suburban/urban parking spaces, won't fit in most parking garages due to height, and diesel fuel is currently WAY more expensive that premium unleaded gas. that big block suburban 2500 i used to have is looking pretty good right now....:(

marshall
f-250 diesel that stays parked unless towing or hauling "stuff"
M3 4dr daily driver

gran racing
12-21-2007, 10:59 AM
Jake, sometimes your sarcasm gets the best of you. <_<

tom_sprecher
12-21-2007, 12:09 PM
I don&#39;t know about testing them but for the past 20 years I have traveled the Southeast for a living in numerous vehicles and love my F250 4WD Crew Cab. I get 19-20 mpg OTR at the speed limit. Down here diesel is 30% higher that REGULAR in the winter and about par in the summer. I have to get more that 30% better mileage unless the V10 gets 14 mpg. The best my wife&#39;s Expedition can muster is 15 mpg. Plus the price we pay for gas vs. everything else is chump change.

The only vehicle I have ever owned that was more comforable OTR was my &#39;96 Caddi STS.

And yes they are a pain to park if your one of those fat lazy asses that has to park up close to the store so they don&#39;t have to walk too far. I&#39;m usually parked and in the store while the obese are still waiting for someone to pull out of that space they want.

lateapex911
12-21-2007, 01:10 PM
Dumb question, why is diesel, which is lower on the refinement ladder, so much more expensive than the other fuels? It can&#39;t be beacuse of economies of scale, can it?

Jeremy Billiel
12-21-2007, 01:13 PM
Dumb question, why is diesel, which is lower on the refinement ladder, so much more expensive than the other fuels? It can&#39;t be beacuse of economies of scale, can it?
[/b]

This is an ENTIRE thread in itself, but generally diesel is the same as home heating oil. In the winter, when home heating oil is high in demand so is diesel and thus the price goes way up. The summer is the opposite extreme.

You are 100% correct that its cheaper to refine, but its economics that drive the price.

JLawton
12-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Dumb question, why is diesel, which is lower on the refinement ladder, so much more expensive than the other fuels? It can&#39;t be beacuse of economies of scale, can it?
[/b]

Supply and Demand, 101. B)

tom_sprecher
12-21-2007, 02:58 PM
I want to correct a error I made so I do not mislead anyone. Down here diesel is 10% higher that regular, not 30%. So unless you can get a gas engine to push around this beast and get 18 mpg (reality is more like 10mpg) diesel is the way to go. Plus the amount of power is incredible.

When I bought the truck 4 years ago diesel was cheaper that regular except in the winter due to competing with heating oil. When the EPA required low sulfur diesel the price went up and has not adjusted back down since and probably never will.

Whadyagonnado?

lateapex911
12-21-2007, 04:21 PM
Seems to me I remember it being higher, or nearly as high in the summer too. And trucks burn up plenty of diesel too. I guess it&#39;s more of a sensitive market then I thought.

Z3_GoCar
12-21-2007, 07:56 PM
I thought it was because of the low sulfer requirement of the the new engines, and this also affects the particulate emissions too. Since more steps are required to remove the sulfer from the bulk oil product the more expensive it becomes. Around there Diesel is more expensive than 91 octane super, thus it&#39;s about $0.25 more than regular which is higher than any where else in the country.

As for daily driver, I drive my &#39;94 Chevrolet S-10 (2wd, extended cab, regular bed) to work almost every day. I&#39;ve had it since &#39;94 and have nearly 190k on it, and it&#39;s not a bad tow vehicle with a 1700lb open trailer, a 2500lb race car and about 500lbs of misceleanous stuff. The motor/trans was the base for the 1/2 ton trucks and the axle was used in the V-8 F-bodys. I even get 14mpg towing.

Hotshoe
12-21-2007, 10:34 PM
[attachmentid=1262][attachmentid=1262]

As for daily driver, I drive my &#39;94 Chevrolet S-10 (2wd, extended cab, regular bed) to work almost every day. I&#39;ve had it since &#39;94 and have nearly 190k on it, and it&#39;s not a bad tow vehicle with a 1700lb open trailer, a 2500lb race car and about 500lbs of misceleanous stuff. The motor/trans was the base for the 1/2 ton trucks and the axle was used in the V-8 F-bodys. I even get 14mpg towing.
[/b]

..... Now that sounds familiar, I tow my ITR BMW Z3 with my 99 Chevy S-10 long bed on an open trailer with about 650 lbs of extra stuff. I went to Barber MotorSports Park (1200 miles round trip) and averaged 16mpg

Jake
12-21-2007, 11:09 PM
Jeff, I&#39;m sorry - you&#39;re truck is the best! And certainly a great choice for everyone. Oh, and Jeff - there&#39;s no reason to read any more of this post, it&#39;s not for you.

We did a test (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/full-sized-pickups-9-07/overview/0709_car_ov.htm) this year comparing Light duty (150/1500) pickups to Heavy Duty (250/2500) trucks with Diesels. There&#39;s no question that Diesels motors are more efficient than gas motors, but since the big three force you to buy a HD truck to the get the Diesel, the added heft of those trucks eliminates any gas savings. (and yes the fuel itself even costs more) So if you can get by with the towing and load capacity of the Light Duty truck, you&#39;d be crazy to get the Diesel. (and there isn&#39;t an open trailer/race car combo that couldn&#39;t get away with a 150 or 1500 truck)

This is the first time we ever did this, and unlike the EPA, we don&#39;t exempt the big trucks from our instrumented fuel economy tests.

As for Jeff&#39;s brake data - I personally instrumented and tested the stopping distance of a Ram 2500 Diesel. From 60mph it stopped in 176 ft in the dry, and 205 ft in the wet. I believe that&#39;s the worst we&#39;ve recorded in at least 10 years. For comparison, a Toyota 4Runner does the same in 132ft dry, 146ft wet.

Jake
12-21-2007, 11:27 PM
Sorry, the link doesn&#39;t get you any data unless you are a subscriber (only free videos and an overview). For risk of getting a talking to from my boss, here&#39;s some data on the Dodge Rams...

Without a trailer, we got 19mpg at a steady 65 mph and 13 mpg in mixed driving in both the Hemi 1500 Ram and the Cummins 2500 Ram (both crew cabs). But the 1500 went 0-60 1.2 seconds quicker, stopped 23 feet shorter in the dry, rode better, was easier to get into, had full-time 4WD, stability control, traction control, cost about $10,000 less, etc., etc.

We only saw and advantage with the Diesel when with a big trailer. With a 7,400lb enclosed trailer we got 8mpg with the Hemi vs. 10 with the Diesel at a steady 65mpg.

Jeremy Billiel
12-21-2007, 11:27 PM
Wow - we HAVE drifted OT - but I do want to address the "Diesel Trucks get great fuel economy" stuff.

Just to clarify, we did a test (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/full-sized-pickups-9-07/overview/0709_car_ov.htm) this year comparing Light duty (150/1500) pickups to Heavy Duty (250/2500) trucks with Diesels. There&#39;s no question that Diesels motors are more efficient than gas motors, but since the big three force you to buy a HD truck to the get the Diesel, the added heft of those trucks eliminates any gas savings. (and yes the fuel itself even costs more) So if you can get by with the towing and load capacity of the Light Duty truck, you&#39;d be crazy to get the Diesel. (and there isn&#39;t an open trailer/race car combo that couldn&#39;t get away with a 150 or 1500 truck)

This is the first time we ever did this, and unlike the EPA, we don&#39;t exempt the big trucks from our instrumented fuel economy tests.

Jeff - you are welcome to call me an ass again, I have no interest in calling you names. But I do like to inform if I do have information. As for your brake data - I personally instrumented and tested the stopping distance of a Ram 2500 Diesel. From 60mph it stopped in 176 ft in the dry, and 205 ft in the wet. I believe that&#39;s the worst we&#39;ve recorded in at least 10 years. For comparison, a Toyota 4Runner does the same in 132ft dry, 146ft wet.
[/b]

With brakes that big how does it take so long to stop? I know my Ford stops on a dime, even more so with weight on the back or in the bed. Perhaps I can see the longer times because the backs do struggle for traction.

Jake
12-21-2007, 11:41 PM
With brakes that big how does it take so long to stop? I know my Ford stops on a dime, even more so with weight on the back or in the bed. Perhaps I can see the longer times because the backs do struggle for traction.
[/b]

Good question - yes the brakes are huge. But I think that&#39;s more about resisting fade when you load the bed to GVWR. The distances are most likely due to the tires. The big HD trucks need tires that can deal with the load and the pressures required to support that load. We&#39;re talking around 60psi or more. (BTW to get an idea of how bad these trucks ride - inflate your tires that high and you&#39;ll get a rough idea). Basically I think the tires are designed for load - not traction.

dickita15
12-22-2007, 06:45 AM
I think the reason you have to but the HD and probably the reason for the stopping distance is the that diesel motor itself weighs so much more.

Ron Earp
12-22-2007, 09:49 AM
but since the big three force you to buy a HD truck to the get the Diesel, the added heft of those trucks eliminates any gas savings.
[/b]

I complained about this ever since becoming "interested" in trucks when I started racing two years ago (or trying to race). But, maybe things like this will come to pass:

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/10...to_offer_d.html (http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/10/ford_to_offer_d.html)

I think there would be a fairly large market for diesels like these once US consumers get over their fear of diesels. Europe has long had powerful, quiet, and efficient diesels under 5L that are not as "industrial" as our large truck motors from GM, Dodge, and Ford (International, Cummins - great motors BTW).

One of the most enjoyable cars I have driven in Europe was a VW wagon with the V6 turbo diesel and a six speed manual. Taking a motor similar to that, maybe a tad larger for a bit more torque, and putting it in a small truck would be fantastic. Might even give up my Lightning for a F150 diesel....nah, I like my smokey burnouts and sleeper stoplight shutdowns too much.

R

joeg
12-22-2007, 09:52 AM
Frankly, what we do for a hobby doesn&#39;t make any economic sense, so why not have a big diesel pulling an open aluminum trailer?

I do and it is the most comfortable least strenuous towing I have ever had in thirty years.

Merry X-Mas.

Jake
12-22-2007, 10:09 AM
Dick&#39;s right. The current crop of Diesels are huge, heavy, and adopted from commercial vehicles - that&#39;s why they can&#39;t be used in the smaller trucks.

That article is old. The 3.6L is too small for our market, they&#39;ll enlarge it before they sell it here.

Actually there will be smaller Diesels in a year or two on all the Big Three&#39;s light duty trucks. - And they look GOOD. Expect them all between 4 to 5 liters and with excess of 500lb-ft of torque!

We&#39;ve been on their case about putting Diesels in those trucks for years - I&#39;m glad it finally looks like it is going to happen!

Ron Earp
12-22-2007, 10:35 AM
Frankly, what we do for a hobby doesn&#39;t make any economic sense, so why not have a big diesel pulling an open aluminum trailer?
[/b]

You are precisely correct!

Out of all the things we do worrying about our economics of towing is probably not the low hanging fruit in the grand scheme of racing. I&#39;m about to drop $600 on a race prepped head so I might go a tiny bit faster. I&#39;m sure more training would make me go faster as well, so, I&#39;ll spend money on both!

:114:

Jake
12-23-2007, 09:48 AM
Frankly, what we do for a hobby doesn&#39;t make any economic sense, so why not have a big diesel pulling an open aluminum trailer?
[/b]

If you are just using it for towing – sure. But it’s not JUST about economics if you don’t need one and want to use it for a daily driver.

Along with the convenience issues (terrible ride, horrible to park, noisy, big climb to get into, etc.), you also are putting your family into a less safe vehicle. They have much longer braking distances, terrible emergency handling, no full time 4WD, no stability control, and lack other safety features that you can get in the light duty trucks or SUVs.

Greg Amy
12-23-2007, 11:19 AM
>>> Such a thing as a daily driver that tows?

Allow me to jump into the fray, and offer some direct experience.

First off, there&#39;s no "The Answer". If you were to sit down with me at a bar and ask me that question, I&#39;d spend at least 10 minutes trying to find out what your "mission" is. I&#39;d find out what you drive daily, where you drive to and from 90% of the time, and what minimum needs you need for everyday life. Then I&#39;d ask you the same questions about your "racing mission", in terms of where you go and what you do, and what your plans are for the next 5 years. Then, I&#39;d give you my opinions as to what would minimally fit your "needs".

In my case, 7 years ago I was at a crossroads. I had just started thinking about getting back into racing, but my plans were to simply "participate", with real expectations of actually driving the IT car to the track as I did with Showroom Stock in the early 90s(!). At the same time, I had taken a new job that required I have a 5-years-old-or-newer four-door car for taking customers around (and the company was giving me a $500/mo expense stipend to do it with). Since I had no expectations of grandeur towing, I took my "free money" and bought myself a new Audi S4.

Fast forward 7 years, and you&#39;ll see that I&#39;ve gone from driving the car to the track and borrowing my brother-in-law&#39;s Dodge Caravan for carrying tools; to buying a 5.0L V-8 Ford cargo van to do that job; then to buying a well-used two-axle open trailer, which we soon found the van really couldn&#39;t handle (not enough power on the older engine); to buying a new two-axle trailer that towed nice; to buying a well-used non-turbo diesel cargo van which pulled the trailer fine but couldn&#39;t carry the wife and others that wanted to join us; to a V-10 Ford 15-passenger van which pulled the two-axle nicely; which soon led to coming across a great deal on a 24-foot enclosed trailer, which the V-10 was minimally-suited for; to buying a 28-foot enclosed and a Ford diesel Excursion.

All while these trucks were sitting in my driveway most of the time, I&#39;m driving around a very nice Audi S4, but paying $1200/yr in insurance and up to $800 per year in property taxes (not to mention the $500 per month payment nut), all while it was depreciating in value quicker than a bar of lead through water.

Last night, as my wife and I were driving to a party in the S4, we both agreed that in hindsight it would have made a HELL of a lot more sense had I purchased a brand-new year-2000 $50,000 (?) Ford diesel Excursion to begin with, as we&#39;d have lost no more in depreciation, but we&#39;d have spent a hell of a lot less in insurance and taxes, and we&#39;d have an Excursion with half the miles. Sure, I have REALLY enjoyed the S4, but it probably wasn&#39;t worth the money I spent on it.

So, there&#39;s two lessons in this tale of morality:

1) If you stay in this hobby very long, you *ARE* going to want more truck and trailer as time goes on, and
2) It makes absolutely ZERO economic sense to own both a towing vehicle *and* a daily driver, even if the towing vehicle cost more to drive in fuel.

Because you started this topic, I&#39;m assuming you agree with Lesson Number Two. However, I strongly caution you to seriously consider Number One, and buy truck more than you think you need today. As in my case, if there&#39;s ANY chance you&#39;ll expand your program in the future, it&#39;s a smart decision; you just enver know what opportunities you will come across or what needs you&#39;ll have 5 years from now. No one has ever complained about buying more truck than they need, but many - myself included - have ended up spending a lot more in the long run from not buying enough. - GA

Campbell
12-23-2007, 11:52 AM
Greg, thanks for the insight!! what a progression.

I have been towing with a dolly for 10 yrs now.. First out of necessity (all I could afford!) and recently for convenience - really don&#39;t have room for a trailer or a tow only vehicle. The dolly hides nicely behind some bushes so the neighbors can&#39;t see it.

Last season it finally happened, I had an accident at Road America and the car was not towable on the dolly, fortunately there was another racer (a really great guy like most all racers are!!) who was kind enough to put my car on his trailer and I towed his car on the dolly. It was a long ride home... and out of the way for him. Such is the drawback of using a tow dolly.

I commute 34 miles each way on a mixture of highways and back roads - mostly stop and go on each. I am space limited and don&#39;t want a tow only vehicle. So for my daily commute I need something good on gas that can also tow 6 weekends a year (1 hr to 4 hr tows). I will have to figure out where to park the trailer. I think I will find an open aluminum trailer to tow my approx 2000 lb ITB and some wheels. The tools will go in the back of the tow vehicle.

The thought of an enclosed trailer is really cool but just not part of my equation right now. I think I will look into a 6 cyl mid size SUV or 4 dr pick up that isn&#39;t too bad on gas.

Thanks for all your comments, they have been very helpful.

gran racing
12-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Last season it finally happened, I had an accident at Road America and the car was not towable on the dolly, fortunately there was another racer (a really great guy like most all racers are!!) who was kind enough to put my car on his trailer and I towed his car on the dolly. It was a long ride home... and out of the way for him. Such is the drawback of using a tow dolly.[/b]

Swap out RA and insert Lime Rock, then that&#39;s me! LOL Poor Ray & Stephen towing their Audi on the dolly back to NH from CT.

Jeremy Billiel
12-23-2007, 12:31 PM
To echo Greg&#39;s point, I have done the math and it does NOT make sense to own a tow vehicle and a daily driver. But Jeremy it gets better gas mileage, But Jeremy its cheaper to run...

Do the math. When you factor in insurance, registration, etc the total cost of ownership is significantly less to compromise and buy a larger vehicle that is bigger than most and can tow. I bought a 2006 Ford F350 diesel in 2006 and it was just too big and too harsh. So I compromised and just bought a diesel excursion.

This is my compromise and it will save me money over having 2 cars. Yes I have to park outside at work and yes its a pain in the ass, but its cheaper.

JLawton
12-23-2007, 01:09 PM
it does NOT make sense [/b]

And Racing does?? ;)

I used my tow vehicle as my daily for 10 years, a 1500 and an F150...... Once I paid off the F150, I said screw this, time to commute in a nice car. Yup, it doesn&#39;t make sense financially, but much more enjoyable to drive!!

Unfortunately, you can&#39;t get EVERYTHING you want. Gas mileage? Size? Power? Comfort? It&#39;s all a compromise.

tom_sprecher
12-23-2007, 02:21 PM
Greg&#39;s post made me think of why I went with a large truck. If Campbell owns a subchapter S I have some advice which I posted over in the sandbox a while back.

At the time I had a &#39;96 STS that the trans went out on at 96k that prompted a quick fix and was traded in on something new. I did not have a race car at the time but I knew it would happen in a year or two.

First of all try to only borrow money when it will make you money.

For example: I wanted to buy a $45k truck and was fortunate to also have that much in some investment making 6-7% a year after taxes. The manufacturer was offering financing at 2%. As a bonus the truck was purchased by my company and since it’s over 6000# qualifies for the Section 179 depreciation schedule (100% and now). As a sub S that deduction rolls over to me against earned income. If you&#39;re making some decent bucks Uncle Sam can get 50% of it if your stupid about it.

So instead of paying for the truck out right I take Ford up on their offer, borrow the $45k at 2%, and make 4-5% just by doing it. Plus, I keep the $22.5k that Uncle Sam wanted but won’t get due to the 179. Is that beautiful or what? FWIW: the flat tax or fair tax - screw both of those fantasies!

It’s not always about how much you make as much as it is how much you get keep. If you&#39;re self employed buy a truck over 6000# and pay half price.

JeffYoung
12-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Shouldn&#39;t have called Jake an ass, sorry for that, but let me make clear what is going on here.

Jake - you work for Consumer Reports correct? That&#39;s that mag that thinks the 4 cylinder Camry is the end all be all in the history of transportation, so we just need to be clear on the perspective from which you are coming.

You have an agenda here, which you and CR generally believe smaller and lighter vehicles are inherently "better." You use your numbers to support that -- that&#39;s fine, until the move from opinion being offered as opinion to opinion being offered as fact.

I am interested in where you got the braking data. The data I looked at on the 2500 from a diesel truck magazine for an 04 2500 is:

At the track, the Ram&#39;s lighter weight and 325 hp enabled it to show its tailgate to the other trucks with a 0-60 time of 8.85 seconds and a quarter-mile run of 16.8 at 80.58 mph. The Dodge&#39;s brakes, which were by far class-leading around town in feel and stopping power, also turned in the best 60-0 braking distance of 138.6 feet - only 6 feet longer than the recently tested &#39;04 Dodge Ram SRT-10, and a whopping 16 feet shorter than the GMC Sierra HD. The 30-0 braking distance with the trailer was also tops.

Can you tow an open trailer at say 2000 lbs for a steel one, half that for an aluminum (at double the cost) and with a 2500 lb car with a mid-size SUV? Sure you can. But you are nearly at the limits of the vehicle&#39;s capability in doing so. Your ability to cruise at more than 60 mph, to handle hills at a reasonable speed, to avoid overworking the brakes, to handle panic stops, etc. is minimal.

Towing in Europe is not a good analog for the US. Again, can you tow with a Volvo station wagon? Sure. And if you are towing 100 miles at 45-50 mph in flat areas, have at it. I&#39;d love to see a lot of those Euro tow rigs go up I-40 over the Blue Ridge Mountains, or out in the open in Kansas. Good luck!

The bottom line is all of this is, for the most part, subjective, which is perhaps the point I was trying to make above before you jumped in with the "Diesel Trucks Suck" diatribe. For some people they do. "Ease of parking" is subjective. I have no problem. Does it take more time to park? Sure. "Hard to get into" is subjective. If you can&#39;t lift your fat a#$ (there&#39;s that word again) up a few feet into a cab of a truck, oh well.
Gas mileage. Did you test with a new diesel? If so, your data is (not surprisingly) completley off. The Cummins takes about 6,000 to 10,000 to break in. Mileage improves significantly in that time period. I get 20 mph around town/highway. Speed doesn&#39;t seem to affect mpg so much as RPM does. If I stay under 2k RPM, I get 20 mph. More revs, less mileage. Towing at 65 mph I get 14 mpg. That&#39;s with a 3000 lb enclosed and a 2500 lb car.

Your numbes are off. Imagine that!

I&#39;ve towed with an 86 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, a 99 2500 Suburban, an 05 F150 Ford Lightning and the new Ram (an 07 2500 5.9 Cummins). The Ram and the Lightning towed the best by far, but even there, the Ram is better, for me. I can cruise comfortably at a higher rate of speed, and the Ram can carry five people. The Lightning is more fun to drive, smaller, and therefore easier to live with in some ways.

Last thing I&#39;ll say is that if you think "getting by" with a tow vehicle when towing is enough, then guess what? I hope I&#39;m not in front of you after coming down a 10 mile stretch of steep grade with your "getting by" tow vehicle.

The bottom line is the choice of a Daily Driver/tow vehicle combo is subjective -- subjective! Having lived with one for a year now, I suggested -- suggested! -- to the original poster that modern diesels are quieter, more fuel efficient and more comfortable than even a few years ago, and that he should check it out and see if it fits his needs.

What we got back from you was not an opinion but opinion offered as fact based on a Consumer Reports diatribe on large trucks. Oh well....

To the Original Poster -- as you can see, a significant difference of opinon here. What that means is, you should drive a number of different vehicles, and tow with them if possible, and see what works best for you.

Jake
12-23-2007, 03:42 PM
It&#39;s OK - I&#39;ve been called an ass before, I have pretty thick skin. But I really didn&#39;t want to turn this into a "CR are communist idiots who get hard over Camrys" thread. I&#39;m representing my views here - not those of my employer. Personally, I wouldn&#39;t be caught dead in a Camry 4 cyl (although it does make a fine car for my brother in law!)

If you want to believe our testing is flawed and your Diesel Truck mag who gets their test cars from manufacturers is perfect - there&#39;s nothing I&#39;m going to be able to do about it. I can only tell you about our broken-in trucks that we purchased at dealerships and tested on our own test track that is monitored for a consistent coefficient of friction. You believe what you want. I&#39;m always happy to answer technical questions about our testing - but this thread is wrong place for that.

On another note - my previous job was with General Motors, where I (among other things) was involved in setting and testing towing capacity. The max capacity is really a factor of powertrain cooling more than anything else. We routinely would pull at the maximum capacity up very long climbs in Death Valley at well over 100deg ambient. It&#39;s really not about having a "weak engine", it&#39;s about being able to cool it. And as for brakes, I truly hope your trailer has some!

And I DON&#39;T mean to say that "Diesel Trucks Suck". They just suck as an everyday car. I like Chicken, but they make lousy house pets. HD Diesel&#39;s rock at towing big loads. And Greg - very good point about planning for the future. If there&#39;s a chance you might be towing a big load, it would be better to get the muscle now than upgrading in steps. (kinda good advice for many car go-fast parts too)

lateapex911
12-23-2007, 08:50 PM
jeff and jake would get along fine over a beer...this is just one of them semantics deals, I bet.

Greg Amy
12-23-2007, 10:04 PM
jeff and jake would get along fine over a beer...this is just one of them semantics deals, I bet.
[/b]
No, I don&#39;t think they&#39;re both Jewish...

JeffYoung
12-23-2007, 10:12 PM
Half wop, half Irish. Explains a lot, semantics schemantics!

I&#39;d have a beer with Jake, but I&#39;d probably just get drunk and crush his pansy little SUV with my monster diesel truck.

Ron Earp
12-23-2007, 10:41 PM
But I really didn&#39;t want to turn this into a "CR are communist idiots who get hard over Camrys" thread. I&#39;m representing my views here - not those of my employer.
[/b]

:D

That is humorous that you mention communists and CR in the same sentence. I like CR and use them from time to time to select things like washing machines, microwaves, and so on. But the car testing aspect of CR, well, it just always seemed (my opinion) to me that they had some sort of left-wing-liberal-hippie-granola-crunching agenda going on with respect to car choices. Hard to explain. Seriously, I do like CR.

Being as how CR has pretty much expanded testing into about all aspects of consumer goods, for better or for worse, when are they going to start testing firearms? It is that time of year where I exercise my option for purchasing firearms and I&#39;m not satisfied with my usual information sources. I&#39;m a bit tired of the standard stuff put out by G&A and the other gun rags. Maybe CR could bring some objectivity in on the testing. Again, I am being serious.

lateapex911
12-23-2007, 10:45 PM
I used to think CR was a bunch of wussies when it came to cars, but I think they&#39;ve gotten better. Jake works there! Keep in mind, the audience is different, and the market is different. They talk about things MOST people want in cars. But they also mention things we care about, just not to the same degree as the car mags, and thats fine.

Hotshoe
12-23-2007, 11:00 PM
jeff and jake would get along fine over a beer...
[/b]


Jake ,

.... Their problem is, they don&#39;t have a real job that requires a real truck for a "Daily Driver"

Check mine out...... Now that&#39;s a TOW vehicle. It will get the job done and it works every day 24/7...LOL

[attachmentid=1266]

Jake
12-24-2007, 09:11 AM
Half wop, half Irish. Explains a lot, semantics schemantics!

I&#39;d have a beer with Jake, but I&#39;d probably just get drunk and crush his pansy little SUV with my monster diesel truck.
[/b]

LOL! If we ever meet, I&#39;m buying the beer! (and I actually am semantic!) http://www.xs4all.nl/~ernstmul/images/jewish/jsmile001.gif
No hard feelings dude. Hard to get tone in an email (sometimes we sound pissed when we&#39;re not). I always enjoy a good discussion - part of being semantic I guess. :P



when are they going to start testing firearms? .... I am being serious.
[/b]

We&#39;ve tested beer, wine, and condoms - why not guns? I only do cars, but I&#39;ll look into it.

BTW - do you know what one of our biggest requests is? Radar Detectors.

Jake

JeffYoung
12-24-2007, 11:04 AM
You should do a big comparo. Beer, wine condoms and guns all at once, get drunk, mess with the bisches and fire some gats. Tell us which is best!

Wait, I am a CR-reading wacko liberal (truly) -- forget about the guns.

dickita15
12-24-2007, 02:16 PM
I am always amazed when I remember that while a share an intense interest with so many of my online acquaintances and get a sense of their opinions about racing I really do not know anything about their views on anything else. Maybe we should have a poll on who has it right Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich.


Well maybe not. :bash_1_:

Jake
12-24-2007, 04:48 PM
LOL - no thread is long enough if you want to start on politics with me. :mad1:

JeffYoung
12-24-2007, 05:17 PM
Maybe CR should do a comparo on Presidential candidates?

stickman
12-24-2007, 06:21 PM
Okay, this has been an interesting thread. I have a GMC Yukon &#39;98 with 196k on it. It has and has always had the worst brakes of any "truck" I have owned. Also own an 04 Audi A6 wagon - LOVE IT - even though CR says it is a POS. Currently have ITB VW and open steel trailer. As Greg pointed out I too have growing desires - would eventually like a 24-28 foot closed. I will soon replace the Yukon and I do not want another full sized truck or SUV. I do not like the idea of towing with anything short of a half ton truck/suv/van. The cost of a dedicated tow vehicle even if well bought used does not make sense. I know our hobby doesn&#39;t make sense either, but most of us must balance all the things we spend our $$$ on. So, lately I have been leaning toward renting and approppriate tow vehivle as needed for race weekends and even splurging on an RV rental for big weekends. The $$$ work out very well when compared to the total expense of a dedicated tow vehicle. Anybody aggree or disagree?????

JoshS
12-24-2007, 07:24 PM
Okay, this has been an interesting thread. I have a GMC Yukon &#39;98 with 196k on it. It has and has always had the worst brakes of any "truck" I have owned. Also own an 04 Audi A6 wagon - LOVE IT - even though CR says it is a POS. Currently have ITB VW and open steel trailer. As Greg pointed out I too have growing desires - would eventually like a 24-28 foot closed. I will soon replace the Yukon and I do not want another full sized truck or SUV. I do not like the idea of towing with anything short of a half ton truck/suv/van. The cost of a dedicated tow vehicle even if well bought used does not make sense. I know our hobby doesn&#39;t make sense either, but most of us must balance all the things we spend our $$$ on. So, lately I have been leaning toward renting and approppriate tow vehivle as needed for race weekends and even splurging on an RV rental for big weekends. The $$$ work out very well when compared to the total expense of a dedicated tow vehicle. Anybody aggree or disagree?????
[/b]
The rental RV thing can look very attractive, but there are a couple of gotchas:

1) Most rental companies charge per mile driven. Adds up fast. So the economics depend a lot on how far from the track you are. Also remember that even though you may only be at the track for two days, you&#39;ll have to pick up the RV on Friday and return it Monday, at best, and that&#39;s 3 nights in their book.

2) Most rental companies have clauses in the rental contracts prohibiting you from towing with their RVs.

3) Many RVs are not really equipped to tow a 28-foot enclosed trailer. You&#39;d be amazed at how close to their max GVWR they are just with the weight of the coach and all of the crap inside they are. Some models may list high tow capacities, but those are assuming that they are dry (no water, kitchen stuff, clothing, or people) and without many options. There are some that surely can do it, but not sure you&#39;ll find them on the rental market.

So it can work -- just do your homework.

FWIW, I have an &#39;04 Suburban 3/4-ton with the 8.1L gas engine. Bought it used, the used market has totally tanked on these things. Gets crappy mileage but I love it compared to the Duramax diesel trucks I used before (a crew-cab dually and an 3/4-ton extended cab). I didn&#39;t own either one of those trucks but towed with them regularly. I&#39;ll take the big SUV gasser any day. And I have no complaints with the Suburban around town and in parking lots. It gets used only for towing and for hauling stuff around.

jbaruth
01-02-2008, 06:02 PM
There used to be a "CR for Guns". It was called Gun Test and I have all of their issues from &#39;93 through &#39;97, at which point I stopped shooting competitively and fell out of the hobby. It had no advertisements, they purchased firearms and tested them, just like CR.

I&#39;m glad to have found this thread, because I am agonizing over a choice of tow vehicle for 2008. I&#39;ll take any and all advice offered, from Jake or anyone else.

I am going to start out with my open steel trailer and an ITA Neon. I used this trailer to tow everything from my piece-of-shit Lotus Seven clone to a &#39;69 Jag, using my 2003 Discovery. The Disco has now been sold and I have no interest in owning any more Rovers due to this Tata buyout (different topic, I guess).

I won&#39;t stay with an open trailer, however; I&#39;ll probably do what everybody else seems to do and end up with a 24&#39; enclosed at some point.

What to get? This will not be my daily driver, under any circumstance. I&#39;ll be using it strictly for towing. While I recognize and acknowledge the validity of the arguments for a daily-driven tow vehicle, I cannot stand driving trucks and I have three Porsches and a pair of Phaetons for daily use. I have an LLC and this is my year to take Sec 179, the last time was with the Disco in &#39;03. Some of my thoughts:

* Sierra Denali with the 6.0 and 2WD
* 2500 or 3500 Chevy pickups
* Chevy vans

I&#39;ll listed to any and all arguments. Seriously. I&#39;m fascinated by the trade-offs between a 1500 and a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.

tom_sprecher
01-02-2008, 06:13 PM
If you end up with a 24&#39; enclosed you can not go wrong with a 3/4 ton pickup. You can feel that it&#39;s back there but not by much.

Also the 179 starts the year you put the equipment in use and it&#39;s supposed to be for a full year IIRC.

JeffYoung
01-02-2008, 07:23 PM
I agree with Tom. If you are NOT using it as a daily, the I don&#39;t see much downside to getting the 3/4 or 1 ton, and also getting a diesel. You&#39;ll appreciate it when towing for sure.

jbaruth
01-02-2008, 09:52 PM
Also the 179 starts the year you put the equipment in use and it&#39;s supposed to be for a full year IIRC.
[/b]

What I meant is that the IRS normally gives you five years to depreciate a car. So if you&#39;re a small business person like me who only needs one "work vehicle" and you do two 179s in less than a six-year-period, the IRS either wants you to justify the second vehicle or give some of the money back :)

tom_sprecher
01-03-2008, 10:54 AM
Are you married and your better half is an officer of your company?

keycom
01-03-2008, 11:06 AM
jbaruth:
"I&#39;ll be using it strictly for towing. . . . I have an LLC and this is my year to take Sec 179 . . ."

Just remember with an LLC and a combined weight (tow vehicle and loaded enclosed trailer) of over 10,000 pounds, you (or your driver) are required to have a Commercial Drivers License (CDL) and accompanying record keeping requirements. That includes a random drug testing program, annual training, logbooks, etc.

tom_sprecher
01-03-2008, 11:15 AM
jbaruth:
"I&#39;ll be using it strictly for towing. . . . I have an LLC and this is my year to take Sec 179 . . ."

Just remember with an LLC and a combined weight (tow vehicle and loaded enclosed trailer) of over 10,000 pounds, you (or your driver) are required to have a Commercial Drivers License (CDL) and accompanying record keeping requirements. That includes a random drug testing program, annual training, logbooks, etc.
[/b]

What about a sub-S?

jbaruth
01-03-2008, 12:03 PM
jbaruth:
"I&#39;ll be using it strictly for towing. . . . I have an LLC and this is my year to take Sec 179 . . ."

Just remember with an LLC and a combined weight (tow vehicle and loaded enclosed trailer) of over 10,000 pounds, you (or your driver) are required to have a Commercial Drivers License (CDL) and accompanying record keeping requirements. That includes a random drug testing program, annual training, logbooks, etc.
[/b]


Really? That&#39;s kind of cool... gives me an excuse to get a CDL and enjoy the various "Professional Drivers Only" facilities at truckstops. It turns out that "Professional Drivers" does not mean holder of a Grand-Am Rolex license :)

I appreciate the heads-up on that.

keycom
01-03-2008, 05:31 PM
What about a sub-S?
[/b]

ANY business use of a vehicle 10,001 pounds (combined weight) and over requires a CDL. . . and fire extinguisher, emergency triangles, annual inspection, repair and maintenance files, . . .

mr. black
01-04-2008, 01:54 PM
I have an &#39;06 F150 Supercrew shortbed. It drives like a car, gets about 21/17 on cheap, is about a half foot shorter than my pop&#39;s suburban, and has almost 10k towing ability. You can find an XLT (standard and seats six adults) in the low 20&#39;s and a Lariat (plush and seats five adults) for a little more. Plus, no one mentioned that some of the other vehicles would have to have a tow package added ($) if you didn&#39;t find a used one already outfitted. Tow package is standard equip on the 150.

mattbatson
01-04-2008, 02:03 PM
Campbell,
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you plan to really stay with an open trailer.

If your willing to stay with an open trailer in order to enable you to drive a smaller SUV as a DD....then that is a decision you will have to make.

I personally would be happy with my open trailer, but my wife is wanting an enclosed so she has somewhere to get away from the sun or rain, etc...

I towed a 1700lb ITB car on a 1200lb single axle trailer with my 97 Toyota 4runner for a couple of years. It towed just fine, even with @700lbs of stuff in the back.

I never measured the mileage while towing, but as a DD I got about 20mpg.

Now I own a 97 Dodge Cummins turbo diesel. It also gets about 20mpg as a DD.

But, the advantage is you can run your used motor oil mixed with the diesel to get even better mileage (Cummins recommends 10% I think...although some run much more with no ill effects). This is a good use of used motor oil in my opinion.

AND, you can brew your own biodiesel at about 75 cents a gal...if you get the used veg oil for free.

Lots of options with diesels that you dont have with gas.

But, if you are very certain open trailers are in your future for a long time, then you may consider a Lexus SUV hybrid. I&#39;d find the best mpg SUV out there.

oh yeah,
there is also the jeep cherokee that came with a diesel...last year I think.
I think it has a tow cap. of 7K...and would imagine the mpg is pretty good. Might want to look at that.

mr. black
01-04-2008, 04:45 PM
I will admit, I wish there was a deisel option for the F150 at the time. Biodiesel and used motor oil sounds like a great idea to cut the cost.

Bob Roth
01-05-2008, 03:06 PM
I towed 8 years with a Chevy Citation X-11 that I used to tow various ITA cars weight 2000 to 2500 pounds on a shop built 1100 pound 4 wheel open trailer w/surge brakes probably 5000 miles a year. All it needed was Air bag helper springs. Granted, we tow through flatlands of wisconsin indiana etc not mountains. It was comfortable and handled well.

I mention this because perhaps the modern equivalent in terms of power and size would be a VR6 golf stick . Assuming that you are judicious about carrying spares a hatchback and the racecar&#39;s trunk will easily carry the totes you need for a weekend race. For tire storage, I welded a nut for a 3/4" all thread rod and stacked them vertically on the tongue between the car and trailer. Put a plate and a nut on top, could stack six wheels no problem. For a small open trailer, anything with a big v6 and helper rear springs will do the trick, of course you will need a friendly fabricator to make or reinforce your hitch.

If you have the spare space to park, a pontiac transport 3.8 is an outstanding tow vehicle for light trailers such as above. You could probably buy the cleanest low mileage one in existance for less than $4k. My guess throw a trans cooler on one and they are good for 200k, Mine has 175k including 70k towing miles with minimal problems and 16mpg at 74 on the road. Another advantage is being a minivan, I can park it on the street all summer and nobody notices. PS, My transport has and needs air springs too. Also if you get a transport, you can actually buy bilstein struts/shocks for them. Between those and the air springs, it actually makes a pretty good handling rig.