Front susupension stayrod

[keycom]

"5. Cars may add one (1) front stayrod, located in one of the
following areas:
A. Between lower suspensions mounting points.
B. Between the upper strut towers on Mac-Pherson strut
equipped cars.
C. Between upper front shock absorber mounts on cars
with other forms of suspension."

So if I already have a "K-bar" in the lower subframe area, I cannot also put in an upper front strut bar between the strut towers, correct?

[joeg]

No. You already have one (1).

[RacerBill]

The use of the term 'k-bar' piques my interest. The shop manual for the Shelby Dodges refer to the sub-frame that the front suspension arms attach to as a 'k frame'. Is that the same as a 'k-bar' or is the 'k-bar' an additional piece seperate from the subframe?

Thanks.

[keycom]

Here's a pic of the VW K-bar.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q188/slow_an_low/4sale011.jpg

[lateapex911]

What do all those points attach to????

[keycom]

This is closer to what I am currently using:
http://www.eurosportacc.com/images/lowerbars.gif
The second option for the Mk1 is a four-point connection, which mounts to the front and rear of the control arms. This bar has two cross sections that connect the front to the rear, thus giving maximum stability. Legal for SCCA IMPROVED TOURING class. Our lower stress bars are designed to fit cars with manual transmissions only. Finished in gloss black powder coat.

[Gary L]

Oh, my... the rule says one (1) stayrod can be used. I count at least 4 stayrods (plural) in that last photo.

Additionally, the glossary defines a stayrod as:

"My interpretation of what&#39;s in the photo? It&#39;s a whole cottonpickin&#39; system of bars and rods, not the singular bar or rod as described and defined. It&#39;s a friggin&#39; subframe! Yes, I see the Eurosport claim that this is SCCA IT legal. But on the same webpage, just below the picture above, is a rear suspension "stress bar" that they claim is IT legal. So much for their credibility. :D Maybe I&#39;ve overlooked it, but I don&#39;t see anything in the ITCS that allows a rear stayrod or similar... it is only allowed at the front, correct?</span>

[ddewhurst]

Dam, I would like to get into this legality discussion except that real quick the moderators will show up :OLA: & then it don&#39;t mean shit how anyone else understands the rules. Lower control arm Spherical bearing here we come again........................

[shwah]

The first picture is a stock VW part from the 16v Scirocco. Unfortunately it does not meet the IT rules. We are limited to two attachment points. EDIT - I could see an argument supporting this one, as the rear connection points attach to the same structural member that you reinforce by simply mounting a 2 point bar between the control arm mounting points (where the front attachment points of that bar are).

The 2nd picture is an aftermarket part that is even further outside the rules.

And yes - you are only allowed one such item on the car - EDIT bottom rear, bottom front, top front - take your pick. With the A1 VW the bottom front is definitely the right one to take advantage of.

[tom_sprecher]

Dam, I would like to get into this legality discussion except that real quick the moderators will show up :OLA: & then it don&#39;t mean shit how anyone else understands the rules. [/b]

Not me. You guys can discuss ad nauseam the legality or lack thereof of his "stayrod". Honestly I think most of us feel as long as there is no attempt to sell drugs or porn and everyone remains civil and avoids questioning one&#39;s IQ, the marital status of the parents at one&#39;s birth or making suggestions involving one&#39;s anatomy that are physically impossible, we say have at it.

[Joe Craven]

What would happen to an A1 if it raced w/o a front stayrod between the front suspension mounting points? Would it flex excessively, slowing lap times? Eventually crack from fatigue?

[shwah]

Yes and yes.

[jimbbski]

The stayrod pictured first is from a 16V Scriocco and is a factory part so shouldn&#39;t it be legal on a Mk II 16V Scriocco raced in ITA, even though it has 4 mounting points?

Reading the rule posted at the beginning of this discussion says we can "add" 1 stayrod. It didn&#39;t say you could only have one. Discuss!

[shwah]

The stayrod pictured first is from a 16V Scriocco and is a factory part so shouldn&#39;t it be legal on a Mk II 16V Scriocco raced in ITA, even though it has 4 mounting points?
[/b]
absolutely

[lateapex911]

Did it come on the car as delivered from the factory? if so, all is fine. If not, no joy.

[shwah]

Jake,

My answer considered the legality of the part on a 16v Scirocco. Absolutely.

[Tristan Smith]

So if a car comes with a factory strut tower bar, like many cars are manufactured with these days, can someone add a lower brace? I don&#39;t have the rules in front of me, but does it state that one upper or one lower brace CAN be added, or that you can have ONLY one or the other. Thanks

[JeffYoung]

Tristan, add to me means add. You can add one to whatever you have stock. If it is zero stock, that means you get one. If you have one stock, that means you get two.

[Bill Miller]

The first picture is a stock VW part from the 16v Scirocco. Unfortunately it does not meet the IT rules. We are limited to two attachment points. EDIT - I could see an argument supporting this one, as the rear connection points attach to the same structural member that you reinforce by simply mounting a 2 point bar between the control arm mounting points (where the front attachment points of that bar are).

The 2nd picture is an aftermarket part that is even further outside the rules.

And yes - you are only allowed one such item on the car - EDIT bottom rear, bottom front, top front - take your pick. With the A1 VW the bottom front is definitely the right one to take advantage of.
[/b]

Chris,

Not sure how the &#39;X&#39; bar is further outside the rules. The rule says &#39;between the lower suspension mounting points&#39;. There is a front and a rear lower mounting point, on each side. Also, I think you can make the case, that since it&#39;s all welded together, it is a single stay rod. You could certainly bend one out of a single piece, and weld the mounting tabs to it.

I agree, the Scirocco 16v one is out, because it mounts to points other than the &#39;lower suspension mounting points&#39;, but I think the &#39;X&#39; bar meets the letter of the rule.

[shwah]

I never thought about it that way. It is at least arguable. Is stayrod restricted to two points?

[Bill Miller]

I never thought about it that way. It is at least arguable. Is stayrod restricted to two points?
[/b]

Not the way the rule is currently written.

[ddewhurst]

Aw $hit, why not. :014: How about we look at the word stayrod. Hmm, do ya think just maybe the word stay came from the word steady & that the word rod is just that , one rod. One rod with an attaching point at each end.

[lateapex911]

Just to add confusion.......

GCR definition of a stayrod:


"A rigid reinforcement bar or rod interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations"[/b]

and the ITCS rule:


Cars may add one (1) front stayrod, located in one of the following areas:
A. Between lower suspensions mounting points.
B. Between the upper strut towers on MacPherson strut equipped cars.
C. Between upper front shock absorber mounts on cars with other forms of suspension.[/b]

And from Websters:
Rod:
a slender bar (as of wood or metal)[/b]
Bar:
1 a: a straight piece (as of wood or metal) that is longer than it is wide and has any of various uses (as for a lever, support, barrier, or fastening) b: a solid piece or block of material that is longer than it is wide <a bar of gold> <a candy bar> c: a usually rigid piece (as of wood or metal) longer than it is wide that is used as a handle or support;[/b]

OK.

So, now, some questions. I have a strut tower support made with two 1/8" plates welded to the strut tower and attached to each other with a 1" .125" wall tube. Legal? or not, and why or why not? I have the same thing, but mounted between the lower control arms. (Essentially one attachment point per side, a plate welded to the chassis) Same questions.
Same thing, but this time, it&#39;s in the form of an X, with gussets, and mounted between the lower control arms. (4 mounting points) (The control arms have two inboard bushings each)
Same thing, (in the form of an X, with gussets) but this time the control arms have one bushing, and there is a drag link (A suspension locating device that blots to the outer end of the lower control arm and pivots at a forward point, approx 20" forward and 10" inward of the outer ball joint)to the front.

[shwah]

The use of singular &#39;stayrod&#39;, &#39;bar&#39; and &#39;rod&#39; in the GCR suggests a single structural member.

However, welded together into one peice, the owner of the Eurosport part will argue that it is a single member. It is one peice, but it is comprised of 4 (or 6) structural members.

If what is meant in the GCR is a stayrod with two connection points to the chassis, that is what should be written. However, this would also affect many upper suspension stayrods, as it is common to have a forked end that bolts to the top of the strut tower in front of and behind the upper strut bearing on either side.

I think this is grey enough for reasonable racers to come up with different interpretations at this point. Knowing that Raffi, the owner of Eurosport Accessories is (or was) an IT racer, reinforces that, as he clearly beleives the part complies with IT rules.

[Bill Miller]

Interesting questions Jake. My initial response was "Nope, you can&#39;t weld them on." But the more I thought about it, I said "Why not?" There&#39;s nothing that specifies the method of attachment, so sure, why not weld them?

My contention is that the &#39;X&#39; works, if you&#39;ve got four suspension attachment points. Not quite sure what you&#39;re driving at w/ the drag link.

Also not sure why you included the definitions from other than the GCR. Those definitions to have a couple of interesting terms in them. One being &#39;straight&#39;, and the other being &#39;solid&#39;. If you want to use those definitions, I guess you&#39;re saying that all bars need to be straight, and not have any bends in them, as well as not having something like a heim joint attached to the end to facilitate mounting.

Chris,

You hit on it w.r.t. the upper mount. Most of the bolt-on ones that I&#39;ve seen have at least 2 bolts, per side, so I don&#39;t think you can restrict it to two points (although, I can see someone arguing that it doesn&#39;t matter how many bolts, it is just using multiple fasteners to attach to one point, I don&#39;t buy that, but I can see that line of thinking).

David,

Like I said, you could make that &#39;X&#39; out of a single, continuous piece of tubing, with mounting points attached to it. Nowhere do it say that the mounting points have to be attached to the end of the rod. In fact, it doesn&#39;t say anything at all about the mounting points, just that you can attach the piece to the car, at the specified location(s). Think about what George always says.



Dam, I would like to get into this legality discussion except that real quick the moderators will show up :OLA: & then it don&#39;t mean shit how anyone else understands the rules.
[/b]

Just what is that comment supposed to mean David?

[ddewhurst]

***Think about what George always says.***

The one thing I always respect George for was the large pinch of common sense he used on a regular basis. Need I say some of the moderators who have ganged up have lost the pinch of common sense.


Bill, not taking the bait with the :OLA: question.

[Bill Miller]

David,

I happen to be one of the moderators here, and I don&#39;t like what you&#39;re implying. The ONLY thing I&#39;ve ever used my moderator privileges for is to remove spam posts. You want to shoot your mouth off, that&#39;s fine with me, but don&#39;t imply that I&#39;ve used my position as a moderator here to try and sway anyone&#39;s opinion or censor anything that anyone has had to say.

You&#39;ve known me long enough to know that I&#39;m a straight shooter, and that if you&#39;re going to float bullshit like that out there, you better expect to get called on it.

And you want to talk common sense when it comes to the rules? You mean like the common sense that allowed people to stuff a MoTec inside their stock ECU box? I didn&#39;t think so. Don&#39;t get pissed at someone because they see a way to meet the rule that you didn&#39;t see. And if you don&#39;t like the way the rule is written, work to get it changed. Something like this is probably like spherical bearings as suspension bushings, it could go either way. Point is, that design meets the current letter of the rules.

[ddewhurst]

***I happen to be one of the moderators here, and I don&#39;t like what you&#39;re implying. The ONLY thing I&#39;ve ever used my moderator privileges for is to remove spam posts. You want to shoot your mouth off, that&#39;s fine with me, but don&#39;t imply that I&#39;ve used my position as a moderator here to try and sway anyone&#39;s opinion or censor anything that anyone has had to say.***

Bill, I said "SOME of the moderators have ganged up". Usually a rat smells his own hole first. < That is mothing off.

***David,

Like I said, you could make that &#39;X&#39; out of a single, continuous piece of tubing, with mounting points attached to it. Nowhere do it say that the mounting points have to be attached to the end of the rod. In fact, it doesn&#39;t say anything at all about the mounting points, just that you can attach the piece to the car, at the specified location(s).***

Bill, this ^ is FLOATING BULLSHIT IMHU of the rules. I will not use the word intent but I&#39;ll use the word common sense. There was a day on this site when common sense was valued & way to many people have lost site of common sense. The sad part being they think working around the rules will propell them to the sharp end with wins.

Continue the arguenment ;)
David

[shwah]

David, what would you expect racers to do?

I can tell you for sure that I will do everything that I can within the rules as they are written to win, and I expect nothing less from my competitors. I fully understand that this leads to unintended consequenses coming out of well intentioned allowances. However, this is racing, and that is the nature of the beast. The only way to counter the &#39;creep&#39; that will naturally occur is the refine the wording of said allowance to make it match the &#39;intent&#39; of the rule - IF it is deemed detrimental to the class (and this IF requires a very long range view of the consequences).

I went into this conversation thinking the eurosport part in question was not legal. After reading Bill&#39;s posts and looking at the words in the rule, I beleive that it may in fact be legal per the written rule. Now if someone wants to chime in and let me know how this will ruin IT because the rule wasn&#39;t intended to allow such a part, go ahead, but it would be just as easy to argue that NO stayrods should be allowed as they do not fit the stated intent of IT allowed modifications to make a car safe to race. Under that argument the allowance itself is just another example of dreaded rules creep.

The value in a conversation like this is that we can identify implementations of a specific allowance that may not have been expected, and apply that information in future rule writing (or re-writing) to improve the correlation between intended and real consequences. It won&#39;t ever be nailed down completely, but we can teach ourselves to be more specific, even when it seems not required, and reduce leeway down the road by paying attention to these evolutions of existing allowances.

I know not everyone agrees with me, but I also consider part of our competition to be in the engineering and building of a competitive car, and the key to that is to find advantages everywhere you can within the written rules, especially where others don&#39;t see them. This is not a spec class and there is some room for injenuity. It is also not Production, and we need to restrict injenuity well below their levels. It ain&#39;t an easy line to walk. Maybe this is why, as dysfunctional as it is, I still see myself converting my car to Prod some day (I&#39;m not a professional driver, but I am a professional engineer - gotta take advantage of your strengths).

[lateapex911]

OK, go back and re read the rules and defs.

Here is some food for thought: My comments in bold italics.


Just to add confusion.......
So, now, some questions. I have a strut tower support made with two 1/8" plates welded to the strut tower and attached to each other with a 1" .125" wall tube. Legal? or not, and why or why not?Technically, this could be found illegal...it&#39;s a tube, not a rod. As we have no racing specific definition to go off of in the GCR of those terms, we consult Websters, which says nothing about tubes in the rod definition, and if you go to buy metal, you can choose a rod or a tube, but not both. In a protest, i would guess that it could be debated, but this would be judged legal. Probably I have the same thing, but mounted between the lower control arms. (Essentially one attachment point per side, a plate welded to the chassis) Same questions.
Ditto on this one .... Same thing, but this time, it&#39;s in the form of an X, with gussets, and mounted between the lower control arms. (4 mounting points) (The control arms have two inboard bushings each)
This pushes the "A rod" term, found in the rule even, further, as its morphing into something decidedly un-rod-like. Not sure what a protest commitee would do on this one.
Same thing, (in the form of an X, with gussets) but this time the control arms have one bushing, and there is a drag link (A suspension locating device that bolts to the outer end of the lower control arm and pivots at a forward point, approx 20" forward and 10" inward of the outer ball joint)to the front.This one is where it gets interesting.IF this were to have it&#39;s attachment points about 6" apart from each other, as I&#39;ve commonly seen, this would be illegal, as the rule stipulates it be mounted between the suspension mounting points, and as I&#39;ve desribed, the suspension mounting points are much further than 6" apart. Now, the rule doesn&#39;t specify the exact proximity, so it could get ummm..heated. At some point, a line needs to be drawn on what is "between suspension mounting points," and what is not. How far from the suspesion mounting points is OK? Taken to extremes, if there is no stated dimension, you could put the stayrod anywhere in the front half of the car and meet the technicality of the rule, no?





[/b]

Question:
When you think of a strut bar, or a stayrod, does the one pictured in post # 6 match what you think the rules writers were intending? (I ask to get opinions, not to lead the answer in any way)

[JoshS]

Question:
When you think of a strut bar, or a stayrod, does the one pictured in post # 6 match what you think the rules writers were intending?
[/b]
Nope.

[Bill Miller]

"What the rule writers were intending"?

Doesn&#39;t really matter, now does it Jake? Do you think that the people the wrote the original rule that opened the door on the ECUs intended for people to be able to stuff a MoTec in there?

Once rules get codified, it really doesn&#39;t matter what the people that wrote them were thinking.

[Gary L]

Question:
When you think of a strut bar, or a stayrod, does the one pictured in post # 6 match what you think the rules writers were intending?[/b]
Absotively, posilutely NOT, for the reasons I outlined in post #7.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, I said "SOME of the moderators have ganged up". Usually a rat smells his own hole first. < That is mothing off.


[/b]

Actually David, you said the moderators. And I&#39;d expect a better back pedal from you.

QFT


Dam, I would like to get into this legality discussion except that real quick the moderators will show up OLA.gif & then it don&#39;t mean shit how anyone else understands the rules. [/b]

[Renaultfool]

I believe that the rules say that you can modify the tops of the towers to install chamber plates. In that case the way is clear to cut and weld.
I do not see any allowence for that in the stay rod rule. I think that you would have to bolt it to the suspension mounting points, bolts as it were.
If you have 4 suspension mounting points on the lower arm, such is in cars with a wide A arm where it mounts to the chassis you might be able to make the argument that you could use either set of points, but the rule specifys "one" stay rod. The "one" would not have been important in the rule if multiple rods welded together met the criteria.
I believe that if it connects to anything other than the suspension pivot points it would be illegal. If it connects to more than two suspension pivot points it would be illegal. Just my opinion.
Lets look at it in a different way. I think I remember a Ford being protested for using the optional cowl brace that only came on the high performance models because it connected the strut towers, legal, but also to the firewall, and was considered illegal.
A "rod" being a system of tubes welded together in a configuration that is something other than a straight line is very creative!
Carl

[shwah]

That is exactly what the eurosport part does. It bolts to all four control arm mounting points. No mounting provisions need to be created.

Basically the question is whether the singular rod can be twisted, linguistically and literally, into an x brace with 4 connection points.

[Bill Miller]

Carl,

If you take &#39;one&#39; in context, it&#39;s related to where you can mount them. In this case, the singularity means that you can&#39;t have one between the lower points AND one between the strut towers.

And nowhere does it say that you can only use two attachment points for the lower member. It says &#39;between the lower suspension mounting points". That means exactly what it says. And if you want to restrict it to a &#39;straight line&#39;, you just tossed out anything that has a bend to it. And if the multiple tubes welded together is getting you, as I said before, you could bend the thing up out of a single piece, and then add the attachment points.

[lateapex911]

OK, To follow that train of thought, Bill, what if I took the unit in post 6, added some sections that ran diagonally upwards from the mounting corners and were wedged and locked into/under special camber plate brackets? (Since the camber plate is free)(not welded or bolted, but secured ingeniously, this would be legal as they wouldn&#39;t be "connected") Of course, they&#39;d be designed to miss the engine, etc, but now you&#39;d have a connection between the upper strut mounts and the lower suspension mounts of the opposite side as well as between the opposing lower points.

If I&#39;m reading you correctly, this would be legal too, right?

[ddewhurst]

Bill you are 50% correct. How&#39;s that for back pedaling. :P I made two post within this thread. In the first post I said "the moderators will show up" & in the second post I said "some of the moderators". End that discussion with a half loss to each. :014:

GCR Glossary

Stayrod- A rigid reinforcement BAR or ROD interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations. Now PLEASE lets now get into the definition debate about "structurally significant locations". :D

Two key words within the rule are BAR or ROD...................

When I consult Websters there is a definition of BAR & ROD.

BAR:
Any piece of wood, metal, ect. longer than it is wide or thick,

ROD:

Any straight or almost straight, stick, shaft, bar, staff, ect., of wood, metal, or other material.

IMHU using the rule & Websters a stayrod is a one piece BAR or ROD. When more than one piece is added to each other it will not be called a one piece BAR or ROD.

Continue the Fun ;)
David

[lateapex911]

Looks like David has my posts on "Ignore"...;)

[ddewhurst]

nOT AT ALL jAKE, i&#39;M EASLY CONFUSED. :o

[dickita15]

Looks like David has my posts on "Ignore"...;)
[/b]
Doesn’t everybody? :D

[lateapex911]

hAr hAr aND a haPPy holIIDAy to you....


;)

[Bill Miller]

Bill you are 50% correct. How&#39;s that for back pedaling. :P I made two post within this thread. In the first post I said "the moderators will show up" & in the second post I said "some of the moderators". End that discussion with a half loss to each. :014:

GCR Glossary

Stayrod- A rigid reinforcement BAR or ROD interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations. Now PLEASE lets now get into the definition debate about "structurally significant locations". :D

Two key words within the rule are BAR or ROD...................

When I consult Websters there is a definition of BAR & ROD.

BAR:
Any piece of wood, metal, ect. longer than it is wide or thick,

ROD:

Any straight or almost straight, stick, shaft, bar, staff, ect., of wood, metal, or other material.

IMHU using the rule & Websters a stayrod is a one piece BAR or ROD. When more than one piece is added to each other it will not be called a one piece BAR or ROD.

Continue the Fun ;)
David
[/b]

You don&#39;t get off anywhere near that easy David. I asked you about a specific comment. Had nothing to do with what you said after that. And believe me there is no win or lose w/ this one.

Jake,

I really have come to expect better from you. Look at where you&#39;re allowed to attach the rod. It&#39;s either at the lower points, or the strut towers, not both. Geez, and you&#39;re one of the people that&#39;s making decisions on the direction of IT? :wacko:

[lateapex911]

Um, Bill? had a bad week?

Where did I say attached? I specifically pointed out that it would function as IF it were attached, but meet the letter of the rule and NOT be attached. Just like how my roll cage is attached to the required number of points, but is pressed into the body in several other places.

What I&#39;m trying to do is to point out that using the logic that makes that X bar with it&#39;s extra bars legal, that...following that logic....another even wilder example could be legal as well.

In other words, where does the line get drawn....and more importantly, are we happy with that point and do we feel it matches the intent?

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

What you said was &#39;locked&#39; and &#39;secured ingeniously&#39;. Now you&#39;re saying that that doesn&#39;t mean attached? Please explain how you secure one thing to another w/o attaching it. Also, please explain where attachment methods are limited to bolting or welding. Would you say that a piston ring is attached to a piston? Would you say that a wheel bearing is attached to a knuckle?

[ddewhurst]

Bill, while your flooding this thread with what if, maybe, suppose this & that including IMHJ bullshit I&#39;ll stand by my post #39 copied below. Skip all your previous crap & argue your way legally around post #39 below for your hoop-de stayrod. :D

GCR Glossary

Stayrod- A rigid reinforcement BAR or ROD interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations. Now PLEASE lets now get into the definition debate about "structurally significant locations".

Two key words within the rule are BAR or ROD...................

When I consult Websters there is a definition of BAR & ROD.

BAR:
Any piece of wood, metal, ect. longer than it is wide or thick,

ROD:

Any straight or almost straight, stick, shaft, bar, staff, ect., of wood, metal, or other material.

IMHU using the rule & Websters a stayrod is a one piece BAR or ROD. When more than one piece is added to each other it will not be called a one piece BAR or ROD.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, while your flooding this thread with what if, maybe, suppose this & that including IMHJ bullshit I&#39;ll stand by my post #39 copied below. Skip all your previous crap & argue your way legally around post #39 below for your hoop-de stayrod. :D

GCR Glossary

Stayrod- A rigid reinforcement BAR or ROD interconnecting opposite sides of a car at structurally significant locations. Now PLEASE lets now get into the definition debate about "structurally significant locations".

Two key words within the rule are BAR or ROD...................

When I consult Websters there is a definition of BAR & ROD.

BAR:
Any piece of wood, metal, ect. longer than it is wide or thick,

ROD:

Any straight or almost straight, stick, shaft, bar, staff, ect., of wood, metal, or other material.

IMHU using the rule & Websters a stayrod is a one piece BAR or ROD. When more than one piece is added to each other it will not be called a one piece BAR or ROD.
[/b]

David,

By your definition, welding the slugs to the ends of the bar, to accept the mounting points (usually rod ends), would make it no longer a one piece BAR or ROD. And like I&#39;ve said several times now, you could bend up a continuous piece to make that. Since you&#39;re so caught up on this one piece thing, tell me how one bent out of a single piece would not be legal, by your standards and interpretations of the rule.

[tom_sprecher]

Can&#39;t we all just get along?

Everybody together now.

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

;)

[ddewhurst]

Matt, get a life. :biggrinsanta: