ITR Contenders

[benspeed]

Having abandoned ship on the Fiero and thankfully not wasting too much $$ on that project, I've been looking at some ITR candidates to keep me busy over the winter. I like to drive 'em while I work on 'em so I do the motor, intake, exhaust first, then suspension, then the safety stuff.

I'd like to hear what folks think of these cars competition potential and costs to make them run at the pointy end of the field:

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$ - I predict this is the class winner

Porsche - the 968 or the 944S2 looks like the best of the marque from a handling and power potential. Anybody thinking Boxster? These are my second choices

Nissan 300Zx - Third choice - this is a car I'm really taking a hard look at. Good balance, cheap cars out there, sorta heavy for the brakes, lots of support. 3000GT and Stealth - just don't grab me.

BMW - the 325 is a great candidate with additional classes to run in. 328 looking good. 330 very expensive

Mustang, Firebird, Camaro - lighter than AS but with a six banger and ITS running similar times to regional AS cars with V8s I just don't see these cars having a chance. Anybody disagree???

What should I also take a look at???

Gotta put that new Millamatic 250 to work.....

Cheers,

Ben

[tnord]

the weight of the S2000 make me worried about the typical honda stuff.....brakes, hubs, axles. slow corners onto straights it's really going to suffer.

i like the BMW option. 325 or 328 E36. I always tend to pick the lighter options just from the perspective of being easier on consumables. i'd want to know if the 328 had any different brakes, gearing, or head flow characteristcs before i made my choice.

i think the Z32 has great potential, but having owned one, i'd never race it only for the reason of not wanting to work in that engine bay.

i'm waiting for the new miata to be classed.

[gran racing]

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$[/b]

Interesting. I don't think this will be the car to have due to its spec weight. Why do you think it will be so expensive to build compared to other ITR cars? There's already a fair amount of development in the Honda Challenge world for the cars, and there's very little to be gained with an engine build. From my discussions with others, it's not even worth building the engine since it's already at the maximum. 240 hp from a 4 cycl. :D I've also heard of issues when removing the ABS. I have an '01 and have fantasized about making it a racecar, although my '87 Prelude is just too cool to do that. Oh yeah, plus my wife / wallet would never allow an ITR car.

[JeffYoung]

Plus no torque.

I think if someone builds a 4th Gen Toyota Supra to the max, everyone else had better watch out.

I've seen scary horsepower numbers fo the Z32 in showroom stock form. IT build might be out of this world.

The 3.0 and 2.8 BMWs will be strong.

[pimpm3]

How about the type-r integra or a Celica GTS.

Plenty of aftermarket support, handles well (look at world challenge) good brakes, but the kicker is the 400 lb weight advantage. The Celica weighs 2280 and in racing trim should make about 190HP at the wheels.

No torque compared to the Bimmers or the Nissans but light weight goes along way.

[Knestis]

I'd be sorely tempted - have been, in fact - by the BMW options, starting with current ITS e36 cars. Hard to beat a known quantity, where money can be spent on actual development and track time, rather than breaking new ground. The knowledge base is there so it becomes about racing on-track rather than fiddling with new parts.

K

EDIT - note that my choice is probably skewed by my enduro emphasis. RWD is always going to be a better option over the long haul, given the power involved in this class.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would go with the rare E46 325ci. 2 doors ('cause I like that) , E46 suspension, proven 2.5L power and the minimum weight to go with that...

Wicked!

[jlucas]

Honda S2000 - First choice - I think this will be the car to have but very $$ - I predict this is the class winner
[/b]
Not at it's current weight. It's heavier in ITR than in T3!!
But someone has to build one before they will adjust it. I'd love to do it but the checkbook does not agree.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not at it's current weight. It's heavier in ITR than in T3!!
But someone has to build one before they will adjust it. I'd love to do it but the checkbook does not agree.
[/b]

What does the ITR weight have to do with the T3 weight? It's about relative performance amongst the ITR cars with IT-legal engine and suspension mods. Remember, it starts out with as much at 60 more stock hp than other cars in the class....

[jlucas]

I realize that. It's just to put the weight in perspective.
However the weight wouldn't matter if it could make the power your expecting it to. From what I've been able to learn so far I don't see that motor making the typical IT gains; it's already very, very optimized.

Someone could build it keeping all the interior bits & stock suspension so that it could easily go back to T3 if you were unhappy with ITR. Heck the interior can even stay installed since the rules say "may remove". You could easily sell the IT spec suspension parts / built motor and go back to T3 pretty easy.

I still want to build one. If I could find a cheap enough donor (or a partner), I'd still be tempted.

[JLawton]

Ben, Ben, Ben............

You need an intervention!!! You are a total crack head!!!! :D

AADD


Auto Attention Deficit Disorder...........

[Greg Amy]

You need an intervention!!! You are a total crack head!!!![/b]

We should introduce Ben to .RJ and KSchultz...

[lateapex911]

I've been pondering the same issue.

I love RWD.
And there is no Mazda to choose from.

I got an 944S2 to build, but when Milledge quoted me 15K to build a basic engine, then told me it would take another 10K on top of that in misc stuff, tuning and an ECU, I thought twice. Then I looked at the suspension parts from Elephant, etc, the PIA the rear suspension is to adjust, and the usual costs to cage etc, and came up with a number I didn't want to race...and wreck. So, for me, the 944/968 are out, which is too bad, because I like the combo from a competition standpoint.

I like the S2000, except it will never make process power. 240hp from 2.0 litres is the highest specific power in the industry, or close to it. There aint much there in my opinion to be gained in an IT build. Not sure why you think it would be expensive. I'd consider it if the weight went down, but I already drive a torquelsss back of the pack car. Don't need another one, no matter how cool it is.

I think the BMW options look good, esp since they have been developed. And built car is always cheaper....

[tnord]

I love RWD.
And there is no Mazda to choose from.
[/b]

if can stand a couple more years in A, there's about to be some cool Mazda options for R. Right?

the MX-5 should be the cheapest way to get in the class. lots of cars, awesome Mazda support, 4cyl vs 6, and people know how to make them work already.



I think the BMW options look good, esp since they have been developed. And built car is always cheaper....
[/b]

if i was going ITR right now, this would be exactly why I'd go with the BMW.

[gran racing]

I like the S2000, except it will never make process power. [/b]

I can't imagine anyone disputing this and it sounds like people are in agreement that the car is on the heavy side. Given that, why is the car so heavy after it was put through the classification process? Do you remember what you guys used for estimated whp after a build? Just curious.

[JeffYoung]

I've got a proposal to class the RX8 written and in my drawer, not because I want to race a Wotary Wocket, but because I think the car should be in there.

I also originally intended to build an R car immediately, but there is so much development work left to be done on the TR and it is getting competitive, plus I basically have enough spares to run the damn thing for ten years, that I am sticking with the TR8 and S for a while.

The next few years should be fun to watch ITR and see how it shakes out. Right now, it is about what we (the guys who put it together) expected -- mostly BMWs, with a few Porschephiles thrown in.

Year 3 (2009) should be when we see more of a real class with a variety of makes as cars that took a year or so to build come on line.

Will be interesting. Congrats to Jake, Andy, Kirk, Scott G., Raymond, Bill Miller, Ron, Dick, et. al for the hard work on getting this up and running. Good working with all you guys (and hope I didn't miss anyone).

[Andy Bettencourt]

I can't imagine anyone disputing this and it sounds like people are in agreement that the car is on the heavy side. Given that, why is the car so heavy after it was put through the classification process? Do you remember what you guys used for estimated whp after a build? Just curious. [/b]

This car was indeed special in it's process power estimate. In fact, the most conservative estimate to date. 15% IIRC. Sorry, won't go any lower than that.

It's of similar weight to cars starting with as much as 40 less hp.

[Jeremy Billiel]

We should introduce Ben to .RJ and KSchultz...
[/b]

I don't know Ben... You coud take the crown from me for most waffling in one year. I have been waffling on selling my car (I am not BTW), but you are waffling on classes, cars and everything in-between!

:D :D :D

[gran racing]

waffling? You are sooooo beyond waffling. :bash_1_: LOL

[GKR_17]

This car was indeed special in it's process power estimate. In fact, the most conservative estimate to date. 15% IIRC. Sorry, won't go any lower than that.

It's of similar weight to cars starting with as much as 40 less hp.
[/b]

As published in the July 2006 Fastrack, a max built S2000 was assumed to have 276hp at the crank. Right on 15%, and the only car I'm aware of that low. The BMW (E30) M3 was even assumed to get 25%...

[benspeed]

Ahhh yes - now that my stocker has been classified in GT1 where the money wars are pretty scary I'd really have to be on the crack to run 2 race cars. BUT WHAT THE HECK - I can't do any of the motor work on the GT1 car myself, I gotta have an IT project in the garage to fiddle with. ....it is a long enough winter in NJ.

No waffling though - the GT1 ride will remain in the stable. I just want more horses to ride.

On the competitiveness question - lots of good remarks. I wasn't surprised that there are no takers on the pony cars. The bimmers are the smart drivers choice - known ability - that seems to have won hands down.

I'm still looking for the Z32 in my area - this is the profile - slick top, 75K miles, unmolested, $5K. Figure another $10K and you've got a front runner that will unfortunately burn through brakes. Can't believe how many of these have been pimped out and ruined.


S2000 - try to find a decent platform for under $10K - I can't. Haven't seen a single built car for sale but I bet they'd be over $20K. Really good points on this cars weaknesses.

[lateapex911]

Now, i know you've spent more money this week than I have in a year, so you have a good handle on what things cost..( ;) )...but $10K for a full on ITR build?


ROUGH quick guesses:

Wheels and tires, (min 2 sets wheels) $2500
Suspension $3000
Cage $1500
Seat belts, etc $1000
Misc engine stuff (better radiator, accusump, etc, etc $1000
Brakes Prop valve, plumbing, calipers and rotors and pads. $$700
Gears: $500?
Basic stuff (bearings bushings, etc) $1000
Engine: header, intake, etc, etc, etc, $7000 ?

And some of those numbers are a bit low, but I can see the build running much closer to $20K. Plus the donor...

[benspeed]

Now THAT is laying down some coin. I wouldn't go for that aggressive of a build project - the budget you have would certainly make the car outstanding. Since I already have a race car track ready I'd be buying this to cruise in while building and also make a judgement decision on the potential of the car.

If I remember correctly, didn't a team from NH or MA have 240ZX and 300ZX running at NHIS? I'd like to hear from anybody who ran a 300ZX. And the Porsches - will they beat the BMWs?

[Z3_GoCar]

Ahhh yes - now that my stocker has been classified in GT1 where the money wars are pretty scary I'd really have to be on the crack to run 2 race cars. BUT WHAT THE HECK - I can't do any of the motor work on the GT1 car myself, I gotta have an IT project in the garage to fiddle with. ....it is a long enough winter in NJ.

No waffling though - the GT1 ride will remain in the stable. I just want more horses to ride.

On the competitiveness question - lots of good remarks. I wasn't surprised that there are no takers on the pony cars. The bimmers are the smart drivers choice - known ability - that seems to have won hands down.

I'm still looking for the Z32 in my area - this is the profile - slick top, 75K miles, unmolested, $5K. Figure another $10K and you've got a front runner that will unfortunately burn through brakes. Can't believe how many of these have been pimped out and ruined.
S2000 - try to find a decent platform for under $10K - I can't. Haven't seen a single built car for sale but I bet they'd be over $20K. Really good points on this cars weaknesses.
[/b]

Hey Ben,

Having just run this exercise, I'd recomend the F-body pair. Sure it's got a solid rear axle, but it's close to the same weight as the 328, there's lots to choose from, and you can get real four corner coil-overs instead of just on the front. In my mind the real unknown is the hp gain from the motor, but it's a full liter of displacement larger than the 328 so it'll have a great launch out of the corners. In reallity it'll probably just make a 15% gain instead of the s-2000's break even or even loss. Out here it'd be a hard to beat package.

On a side note, I'm curious why you don't run in Super-Production? That's where all our former Southwest Tour/ASA type cars run. We even used to have a Ford Ranger pickup run in SP.

James

[benspeed]

I did OK in SPO this year but didn't really race anybody. It was more of running for overall postition in the big bore race. I have succesfully lobbied to get this car classed in GT - unfortunately GT1 instead of GT2. So I will run for the NARRC GT1 title next year and try out some national events, but will really need to improve power and aero for any shot at top 3 in a stock car against brand new Rocketsports Corvettes and Trans Am cars.

[erlrich]

Having just run this exercise, I'd recomend the F-body pair. Sure it's got a solid rear axle, but it's close to the same weight as the 328, there's lots to choose from, and you can get real four corner coil-overs instead of just on the front. In my mind the real unknown is the hp gain from the motor...
[/b] I would love to some day build a Camaro for ITR, but until I see one already built that makes min weight that's not gonna happen. I know there is a lot of crap to remove, but 700 lbs worth? Also, I know the perception is that there's tons of aftermarket support for these cars, but the go-fast goodies are all made for the V-8s; there really isn't that must out there for the 6.

[JeffYoung]

Fastest two ITR cars that I saw this year were Grafton Robertson's Porsche 944S2 and Rick Thompson's BMW Z3 2.8. At the Goblins Go at VIR in the fall, they ran similar times.

$20k for an ITR car, especially a Porsche and especially a front runner, ain't gonna happen (read Jake's post about the cost of a Milledge motor). Same is true of a Z32. Sure, you can get on track for $10k, but up front? In a new car that you have to develop? $30-40k at least.

I'm telling you, that Fiero and that torque would have been a lot of fun. THe handling could be fixed.

[benspeed]

Tell me Mr. I'm now in ITA :D Wouldn't your Triumph absolutely crush my Fiero? No way that Fiero was winning anything. But it would be the ultimate first lap car - great start and great out corner power. But I tell ya, it would be out RPM'd on any track over 100 mph. The Honda and Rx7 guys know - let me pull you 8 lengths on the top end, you can work like a slave to make it back in the corners.

I am a horsepower fan.

[lateapex911]

Tell me Mr. I'm now in ITA :D [/b]

You're kidding right? Triumph TR6 is in A, the 8 is still in S, where it will stay....

[Ron Earp]

You're kidding right? Triumph TR6 is in A, the 8 is still in S, where it will stay....
[/b]

I laughed til my sides hurt when I saw the TR6 was in A. Have any of you actually driven around in one of these? Jeff Y drives one about daily now (don't ask why) and I've driven it too. Good luck!!

Ron

[lateapex911]

You know the phrase when it comes to race cars; buy for power, then fix the handling.

The triumph has big displacement! And lots of cylinders!

[dj10]

Fastest two ITR cars that I saw this year were Grafton Robertson's Porsche 944S2 and Rick Thompson's BMW Z3 2.8. At the Goblins Go at VIR in the fall, they ran similar times.

$20k for an ITR car, especially a Porsche and especially a front runner, ain't gonna happen (read Jake's post about the cost of a Milledge motor). Same is true of a Z32. Sure, you can get on track for $10k, but up front? In a new car that you have to develop? $30-40k at least.

I'm telling you, that Fiero and that torque would have been a lot of fun. THe handling could be fixed. [/b]



Jeff,

Grafton Robertson is he any relation to Taylor Robertson?

[GKR_17]

Fastest two ITR cars that I saw this year were Grafton Robertson's Porsche 944S2 and Rick Thompson's BMW Z3 2.8. At the Goblins Go at VIR in the fall, they ran similar times.

[/b]

Actually, that's my dad's car... he just lets me drive it when I can make it back east. Last year when we were looking at R, I said no torsion bars, no transaxles, and no 4 cylinders. But, we did have experience on the chassis from a previous ITS 944 so here we are...



I laughed til my sides hurt when I saw the TR6 was in A. [/b]

It's funny you say that... the TR6 was one of the first ITA cars I saw, back in 1990, I hadn't realized it wasn't still on the books.

Grafton

[benspeed]

You're kidding right? Triumph TR6 is in A, the 8 is still in S, where it will stay....
[/b]


Hups - I jumped to the conclusion the S Triumph was moved to A. My oversight. I thought that was one major rule change play.......And I was giving Jeff credit for some serious rules meistering.

[lateapex911]

LOL, Jeff's good, and he was on the ITR commitee, but nobody is THAT good! (Heck, the ITAC chairman has an ITA car, he might have some "input" LOL...)

Now, if it fit the process, then that would be another story...;)

[Dave Burchfield]

Don't forget, there is a TR6 that runs in EP and sometimes GT3 that is usually at the pointy end of the Runoffs every year. The car has been around for almost as long at Tom Patton's Tiger.

If that TR6 engine has any where near the torque that my big Healey has, it should be a killer torque monster. I am pretty certain the suspension is better on the Triumph than my Healey and would be interested to know if the lever shocks would be required to be retained in ITA trim. Without question, an interesting challenge.

[Ron Earp]

No where near an IT build.

http://www.hottr6.com/triumph/tr6dyno.html

Stock motor, header, no smog stuff. 91hp, 123 ft-lbs on a Dynojet.

[JeffYoung]

We are off topic, but:

1. Jake, run the numbers on a 133 hp, front discs/rear drums, live rear axle car....A car! LOL....the 8 is not an A car, I would be adamantly opposed to dropping it to A. In fact, it is a perfect "answer" to those who think that subjectivitiy should be left out of the process. If it had with my car, and the fact that it has ridiculous torque and gains way more hp than most cars in IT trim were ignored, well, you'd have a big 8 cylinder problem in ITA.

2. The TR6 in ITA.....NO WAY. It's light, yes, but that motor will not rev and will not make power without changes to the valvetrain and the cam. Not sure on the lever arms -- tube shocks would be allowed I suppose if you didn't have to change suspension points. I'd have to look ant see if the tube shock conversions do that or mount to the stock locations.

I just can't see that car making nearly the power necessary to run with 150 whp cars that are up front in A right now. Plus, it would be a BITCH to develop that thing. Unlike the TR8, where there has actually been some IT development by the guys who raced this car over the years, the 6 has been developed solely for production racing and all of the easy, already done mods are for cams, brakes, etc. Things you can't change in IT.

[rob22]

Ben, if your Monte Carlo stocker is a FI LS1 doesn't your car fit in GTA, or does your region not have the class? Come south sometime and run with us in V8 StockCar. We will be at VIR in may.


Bosco

ex Kurt Roehrig Monte Carlo GTA

[benspeed]

Yo Bosco - seen you on the V8 site.

Yup - my car is a straight up GTA car and the only one running in the Northeast. I ran SPO last year since GTA isn't a regional class up here. I plan to come down to VIR in the spring and run GTA with you guys if I don't do any motor work to try and run with GT1. Not much chance of being real competitive in GT1 but we are light and if I can get the motor to make 600 at the crank I'd be curious to see what it can do.

Sorta looking around to see if the car has any chance of being put in GT2 where it would be competitive nationally, but I don't think it'll happen. You think there is any chance of GTA going national?

GTA is an awesome class but these yankees in the NE seem to turn up their noses at the stockers. :rolleyes:

Ben

[Gregg]

WDCR (the MARRS series) will be running GTA for the '08 season. Come on down....

[philstireservice]

And to add even more.....


There is a rumour that NASA will be unveiling a Spec E36 class for 2008......... :024:

[JeffYoung]

Phil, will that be based on BMWCCA Spec E36 rules?

[mlytle]

Phil, will that be based on BMWCCA Spec E36 rules?
[/b]
no unfortunately. nasa has chosen to come up with thier own, incompatible, set of e36 rules.

[JeffYoung]

That's just stupid. Almost SCCA like.

[lateapex911]

LOL...NASA has shown recently that they feel they are a big fish with moves like this.

[77ITA]

After putting quite a great deal of thought into it (and considering my realistic budget), I would go with the V6 Mustang for ITR.

The cars are everywhere and can be had cheap, performance parts from any Jegs catalog, and good reliability. Overall, an affordable and (theoretical) good choice.

If budget and time were no issue, Z32 n/a 300zx without a doubt. These are stellar automobiles that have huge power potential in IT form and they are becoming available for pennies on the dollar. The downside would be service and part failure.

I'm a Nissan parts guy, so I can tell you with great confidence that the physical complexity and number of parts present on a z32 could easily triple that of an ITA Neon. The cars are insanely over-engineered, ridiculous to work on, and pricey for repairs. Oh, and every repair instruction listed in the service manual starts with:

Step 1; remove complete exhaust system
Step 2; remove transmission
step 3; remove upper and lower intake manifold

Seriously!

As for the S2000, It's book weight is a bit high and I concur about the specific output. There's just not going to be a lot of power left to squeeze out of it. I also seem to remember that the hardtops are pretty pricey too.

Side note:

What does everyone thing about the future of ITR? I've yet to get interested in building a car for the class because the entries in the midwest haven't really picked up. I just don't think I would have fun playing by myself

[Mike Guenther]

After 8 years of racing, starting in ITA, then IT-7 and 3 years in ITS, I finally won my first race ever in an awesome ITR BMW 325is I bought this summer. I loved my RX7's and they were fun to drive. I tried a BMW E30 a few years ago and liked it too. But this E36 BMW 325is is just an awesome handling car and has a lot more power coming out of the corners than my RX7's ever had.

Unfortunately some expenses at home are forcing me to part with this awesome car. It was professionally built and has everything. I need to work up an ad and put it on the classified page in the next few days.

Thinking about ITR in 2008? Look for my BMW 325 for sale soon and get one awesome car for about half the cost of building one today. You might win the ITR Championship in 2008.

For pics.... fastflames (at) tampabay (dot) rr (dot) commmm....

I'll be back...................

[Ron Earp]

After putting quite a great deal of thought into it (and considering my realistic budget), I would go with the V6 Mustang for ITR.

The cars are everywhere and can be had cheap, performance parts from any Jegs catalog, and good reliability. Overall, an affordable and (theoretical) good choice.
[/b]

No doubt there. As a Ford guy I know the parts are out there for nothing. Sway bars, panhard rods, coil overs, - everything off the shelf, good quality, just buy it for a fraction of BMW/Nissan/Porsche components. Engines, transmissions, rear ends and so forth are nearly free and the stuff won't break.

If the motor will make some power then the car could be pretty good. I don't know much about that V6 in the Mustang, but it has decent size and will at least make good torque.

Wouldn't mind giving a V6 car a drive to check it out.

Ron

[benspeed]

I like the Ford also for the low investment and a very lightweight ITR car. Found several really nice platforms for only $2500 range.

Tell me if this logic makes sense. Regional AS cars are only a hair faster than ITS cars. And they are running V8s with a couple hundred pounds more. It just makes me think that even a bit lighter, these V6 pony cars wouldn't be able to run with an ITS car.

Make sense?

[JeffYoung]

There were some on the ITR committee who agreed with you, and believed that the V8 ponys (the early ones with 305/302 motors) should be classed in R. Others were fearful of their torque potential, brake issues, handling issues, etc. In fact, all V8 ITR candidates (the ponys and the 928) were voted out.

I believed, and continue to believe, that these cars (the V8 ponys) would be great for the class, and would give Mustang and Camaro guys a much cheaper place to run. These cars would be down on total hp to some of the best ITR cars, although up on torque. I've been there, with the TR8, and know that huge torque is great, but it's just one of many factors that makes a car fast. I actually think a race between a V8 pony and a torqueless wonder like an S2000 would be fun and quite a bit like me v. the RX7.

There was a thought that the V8 ponys would come in in the "second wave" of classing for ITR, but I honestly have not had the time or the energy to start that effort yet, other than to take a first stab at an RX8 proposal. THAT is a car that I think absolutely must be put in R ASAP. Lots of Mazda guys want to run that car in R, and we should accomodate that as the car fits the class nicely -- about 230 crank hp, low on torque, good handling and brakes.

[77ITA]

In fact, all V8 ITR candidates (the ponys and the 928) were voted out.[/b]

I'm literally drooling here at the thought of a 928 IT race car. B)

It's a good thing they've not been classified though... Despite how utterly awesome it would be, a 928 race car has grounds to be a huge financial blunder.


On a side note, it's hard to see an urgent need to class v8 pony cars in IT considering they're classed in both Touring and AS. I'm sure in time (as the cars age), the need will become more apparent and they will get worked in somewhere.

[Ron Earp]

other than to take a first stab at an RX8 proposal. THAT is a car that I think absolutely must be put in R ASAP. Lots of Mazda guys want to run that car in R, and we should accomodate that as the car fits the class nicely -- about 230 crank hp, low on torque, good handling and brakes.
[/b]

I really feel the V8 pony cars should be in the class ASAP. They'd get huge draw as evidenced by initial feelers over a year ago. I'd race one regardless of how good it'd be in R - I like Fords, I like Mustangs, and the V8 is indestructible for the racing we'll be doing. Might not be a winner but it'd be fun. Lots of AS fellows felt the same when I asked at the time. AS won't have the competition that IT will have and the cost factor can be less.

Ron

[Ron Earp]

As far as the ITR Mustang goes….

*ITR Mustang Weighs 2670, 60 lbs more than a TR8….
*Has 3.8L V6 versus TR8 3.5 V8, both 2 valve push rod motors....
*Has rear suspension about like like a TR8….
*Has fairly poor aero like a TR8….
*Has strut front suspension about like a TR8….

I bet it goes around the track about like a TR8!

[benspeed]

I'm sorta narrowing it down to the 300ZX or the 968 - neither fits into the inexpensive beater to fool around with. (The winner on that list was the Mustang.)

So of these 2 rides - which is the winner? Which is less expensive to build and race? Parts and Support?

[JeffYoung]

Ron and I looked hard at both before deciding to stick with our S cars for a while.

300ZX -- plentiful (except for slicktops), cheap, some aftermarket support, gobs of power and torque. Negatives -- hard to work on, some aftermarket support but not a lot, potentially inadequate brakes. Heavy.

Porsche 968 -- rare, expensive, great aftermarket support, M3 like power, good torque. Great balance and handling. Weight is a bit of an issue. Body panel availability is an issue.

After a lot of looking and thinking, we concluded that a 944S2 is probably the best bet at this early stage in ITR history. It's quite a bit lighter than the 968, shares body panels with the 944 (some anyway), decent power, great handling, great brakes.

If you ask me though, someone is going to spend $75k building a whup azz 4th Gen Supra that no one will be able to beat. Good inline six, great power and torque, good brakes, great aero, can be made to handle.

[77ITA]

I bet it goes around the track about like a TR8![/b]

albeit with fewer parts falling off :D

[buldogge]

Hey Jeff... Not to be a shit stirrer...but...remind me again why the E36 M3 and E36/8/7 MCoupe/Roadster aren't included...???

There are an AWFUL lot of E36 M3 track cars out there which could possibly transition to racing and strengthen the ITR ranks.

???



Ron and I looked hard at both before deciding to stick with our S cars for a while.

300ZX -- plentiful (except for slicktops), cheap, some aftermarket support, gobs of power and torque. Negatives -- hard to work on, some aftermarket support but not a lot, potentially inadequate brakes. Heavy.

Porsche 968 -- rare, expensive, great aftermarket support, M3 like power, good torque. Great balance and handling. Weight is a bit of an issue. Body panel availability is an issue.

After a lot of looking and thinking, we concluded that a 944S2 is probably the best bet at this early stage in ITR history. It's quite a bit lighter than the 968, shares body panels with the 944 (some anyway), decent power, great handling, great brakes.

If you ask me though, someone is going to spend $75k building a whup azz 4th Gen Supra that no one will be able to beat. Good inline six, great power and torque, good brakes, great aero, can be made to handle.
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hey Jeff... Not to be a shit stirrer...but...remind me again why the E36 M3 and E36/8/7 MCoupe/Roadster aren't included...???

There are an AWFUL lot of E36 M3 track cars out there which could possibly transition to racing and strengthen the ITR ranks.

???


[/b]

Mark,

When we ran those cars through the process, it was determined that the weight in ITR would be too heavy for anyone to seriously consider building one. 3500lbs IIRC. It was a car that we REALLY wanted to get in there for the exact reasons you cite, it just seems as if it will have to wait for the 'next gen' of IT...ITX? :)

Many people consider the 300ZX a porky choice at 3250...and that has 18 less hp to start with.

[rob22]

For: Benspeed

Ben, your stocker will classify in our V8 GTA as is, if you modify up over the 500 hp level, it would move to our V8 SPO. This would be stockcars running on 15x10 wheels, blade spoilers and most of these have 600 plus hp. Some are 18 degree Busch east motors, some are cup SB2.2, also legal would be upgraded LS1. LS6 etc. carbed or FI. Katech racing has some pretting exciting new carbed LS2 motors that could be monsters and not that unreasonably priced.

Bosco

[JeffYoung]

Mark, good to hear from you. Heard the rest of your season after Nashville went well -- congratulations.

I would say that the three biggest areas of debate amongst the ITR committee folks were:

1. V8 ponys, and to a lesser extent the 928 (a fetish car of mine, probably good that it did not get classed).

2. Whether to put the high revving 4 cylinders (Acura RS-X or some sort and definitely the Toyota Celica GT-S) with lower hp in S at a high weight or in R at a ridiculously low weight.

3. What to do with the S52 powered BMW cars -- should they be included in ITR or no?

I was on the fence on 3. I owned a 2000 M Coupe, best car and best motor I've ever owned. Stock made more hp than advertised -- I dynoed it at 216 at the wheels which is about 250 crank hp or 10 more than advertised. Others with M Coupes were even higher.

There was a significant fear that the power potential in IT trim for those cars could, based on the 325 experience, reach as much as 260-270 hp. That's just too much for ITR and as Andy says we were looking at a weight of 3500 lbs or so based on power potential for all the S52 engined cars.

I posted on the Bimmerforums board about this I beleive, and I think most thought that an unrestricted 325is at 2600/2700 lbs could not compete with an M3 at a reasonable weight.

It is a shame, there are a lot of M3 track and race cars out there that would be great for ITR fields. I just think the car is a bit out of the performance range for ITR. If someone has numbers to convince me otherwise, I am all ears. I think they would make a great addition to ITR so long as they don't have a real potential to be a class killer.

[benspeed]

Hey Bosco - thanks for the info. I'm doing my LS1 homework to see what kind of power these can make at what cost.

Cheers

[Ron Earp]

As Jeff says the ITR discussion around certain cars was quite lively.

I too had a S52 motored M3 Coupe and I felt the car was going to be too much for ITR. Indeed, the process weight for it was extremely high with the 3.2L 4 valve inline six that we know makes good hp stock. And, has a table top flat torque curve to boot. The process weight was higher than the curb weight for the car in street trim so it didn’t seem to be a good fit in ITR. The discussion around these cars didn’t draw out for weeks, but there was some debate.

On the V8 pony cars, basically the 1994/1995 5L Mustang, there was a significant amount of debate. Had the car been classed the weight would have been fairly high, and in that respect the car might not be “racable”. There is no denying they would have a torque advantage in ITR, however the data shows these cars would not have been the horsepower leaders in the ITR group as long as the IT rules were followed. Nonetheless, they are not in ITR and it is probably a good thing they are not for the first iteration in order to allow things to settle out and see how the class is going.

I bought Jake’s 944 S2 to evaluate for ITR. I think it is a car for the short list as the weight is reasonable, it has good brakes, a strong motor, and a long heritage of successful racing in various 944 trims. I figure that is worth a lot, to be able to draw upon a large body of racing knowledge (Jensen Healey fear and memories vivid). The 944 S2 is essentially the same motor as the 968, sans Variocam and dual intake tracts, but those really don’t come into play at race RPMs. Rare cars, but share lots o’ parts with standard 944s.

That 300z looks good, but the weight scares me a bit and the motor complexity. Development is costly.

E30 M3s seem pretty interesting, have a long racing history and body of knowledge, and are light. Not too expensive either.

The Camaro is a possibility, maybe a bit more so than the Mustang.

BMW 325/328/330s are all going to be very strong, stable, and proven. They look to be good choices.

I like ITR. It appears that many people seem to think there are a lot of contenders for ITR and that is a good thing. But, for now, I’ll stick to S – I have a running car and it is inexpensive to run (relatively), a very good thing.

Ron

[benspeed]

Hey Ron,

Is the plan to drive the car while you have fun setting it up? That's my idea for now - pick a fun car with front runner potential and have some fun slowly building it out while racing a finished car.

S2 is a good play also.

I still think the 300ZX has a shot - especially at the fast tracks.

[Ron Earp]

That is the plan. We sort of need a third car at my house for when one goes down anyhow. The Porsche runs fine, I like driving it, and it is a cool car.

The tentative plan is to add racey bits to it over a period of a year or so and take it on track outings. I firmly feel that driving a car on the street that you plan to make into a race car is a big advantage. I have not had the pleasure to do so, but lots of guys I respect as racers, and are successful racers, did just that.

Ron

[erlrich]

Damn all of you I say!!! Especially Earp & Young, who started this whole ITR mess!

I'm sitting here looking through car ads for a replacement for the two-year old Sentra my daughter totalled a week ago (my commuter car no less)(she's ok btw), with the '08 GCR turned to the ITR section as my guide. Even though I know it would be 3 - 5 years before I could even consider turning it into another dedicated track car, I just can't seem to steer away from the list. What's even worse, here I sit a life-long Chevy guy, and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the Mustang wouldn't be a good choice. It's just not right I tell you.

May you all be condemned to racing 40 year-old British sportscars in the afterlife!!!

[Z3_GoCar]

The F-body will beat the Mustang unless you're on a really tight track, then probably the BMW sedans would be best. Find her a nice used e-36 328, probably the best all around and while not the least expensive, certainly not as expensive as purchasing a new BMW every 2-5 years.

James

ps. Glad to hear she's alright

[benspeed]

I totally agree driving the car you end up building or buying as a race car gives the driver a better feel and edge for the car.

One depressing thing is that I always drove BMW's when I was a yuppie out of college and I can't bear to drive one again, but the 3 series cars are so damn good. It's like, fight the force, don't let logic drag you over and drive for the empire....

[dj10]

I totally agree driving the car you end up building or buying as a race car gives the driver a better feel and edge for the car.

One depressing thing is that I always drove BMW's when I was a yuppie out of college and I can't bear to drive one again, but the 3 series cars are so damn good. It's like, fight the force, don't let logic drag you over and drive for the empire.... [/b]



I know where you can get a 325is ex autotech car with lots of spares for 15K, short shifter and all. ;)

[Crashtest]

Hey Everyone,
Name is James. I live out in California and am running a S2000 in ITR.
I did all year and was running with a BMW Z3 2.3

here is a post all about the ITR S2k on S2ki.com
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=448922
look around in racing and comp you will find more stuff on the whole thing

Here is the BMW I was running with http://www.godoggoracing.org/
we were close most the year till he upped the power with a full exhaust.

My car Stock motor, Toda header, Stock exhaust with test pipe, comptech intake, stock brakes, no rear sway and a mugen front, KW Comp suspension, 17X8.5's with 275 RA1's, and about 300 lbs of lead added.

now mind you for the 07 season I could do NOTHING for tuning on the ECU because nobody made anything.
as I understand for the 08 season they have opened up the ECU Rule so I will be running a AEM standalone.

My car had a bad alignment all year and I was usually 2 sec off the bimmer. At laguna for the last race I changed to ITE and took all the weight out and ran the same times (aprox) as the BMW.

So.....
with all that said we should be close next year with a properly tuned S and his BMW.

Also as for the build I dont know how much it cost didnt wanna think about that one.
I will say this.
the stock brakes are fine, no need to upgrade more than the pads and fluid.
the chassis is really good with just a good set of coilovers.

anyhow if you have any questions feel free to ask.
jlucas was helping me with this whole thing too at s2ki.com.

picture of the little red beast.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=m...mage&img=479205 (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=viewimage&img=479205)

[JeffYoung]

James, good to hear from you and thanks for posting.

No head work, and the bottom end is stock? Some power there. However, sounds like you and the 325 are pretty close, that's a good sign for us who worked on classing these cars. Keep us posted on next year.

[Crashtest]

James, good to hear from you and thanks for posting.

No head work, and the bottom end is stock? Some power there. However, sounds like you and the 325 are pretty close, that's a good sign for us who worked on classing these cars. Keep us posted on next year.
[/b]

motor is stock out of a wrecked 60k miles
Josh has over 100k on his motor. I am sure he is going to be building a motor over the winter.
me and the Z3 that Josh Siorta (spelling) drives are close.
last race he changed the full exhaust and had car tuned.
he got down to a 144.3 at Laguna were I was still around the high 145's.
when the ecu comes around it will be more driver than HP in my opinion.
the car works good and should work better with a little more juice!

My only real complaint about the 300 lbs is there was no room for it on the passenger floor so I had to put 100 lbs in the trunk.
it does not really help back there and 300 lbs is allot.
A 200 lb passenger is sitting next to me and I have always been afraid of it shearing off the floor in a major rollover.
other than all that its a good fun car and hope to see more people next year.

[JoshS]

Hey James, good to see you over here.

My car is actually a Z3 2.8, not a 2.3 or a 325.

I don't know if I'll be building a motor over the winter. I think I'm going to stick with this one for another season, until you or someone else (Makashima?) forces my hand! Better to keep that money around for the moment.

My 1:44.3 lap in that last (very short) race was on the one where I had to take evasive action around the spun ITE 928. I lifted big time at the start of the front straight. How fast might that lap have been without that lift?

[Crashtest]

Hey James, good to see you over here.

My car is actually a Z3 2.8, not a 2.3 or a 325.

I don't know if I'll be building a motor over the winter. I think I'm going to stick with this one for another season, until you or someone else (Makashima?) forces my hand! Better to keep that money around for the moment.

My 1:44.3 lap in that last (very short) race was on the one where I had to take evasive action around the spun ITE 928. I lifted big time at the start of the front straight. How fast might that lap have been without that lift?
[/b]

shows you how much I pay attention.
anyhow I don't blame you on the motor it seems to be working fine.
build one and it will DNF you.
we will see what you pull out next year.
I am excited and ready now that the ECU rule has changed.
I hope Makashima does not come ITR with that car he runs.
he pulls me on the straights so much that by the time he was turning in for turn 2 at laguna I was just finished cresting the hill at 1.
I dont think that car would be ITR legal anyhow but that would suck.

[Tristan Smith]

Hey Jeff,
I don't have a GCR handy, but is the lexus IS300 classed in R? Also aren't the Nissan 350z' getting close to being old enough to class? What's your thought on the newer Z?

[JeffYoung]

Tristan! Good to hear from you man. How's the home renovation going? Done I hope, so that we see your ass out at the track more this year.

The 01-02 IS300 is in, and it may be a sleeper. Good power, but a bit porky at 3145.

The 350Z is nearly 300 hp stock isn't it??? That might be a bit much for ITR, unless someone could live with a correspondingly high weight.

[Tristan Smith]

Jeff,

House is almost done, just one more bathroom to do. But regardless, I have a ton of body work to fix, and a motor with a big ol hole in the block to rebuild on the 240sx. So who knows when I will get out again. It's going to cost me a chunk of change I think. I was considering a build on a R car, but that will have to wait another year now. Plus I have my vintage IMSA RS Datsun 200sx to make some "improvements" to, so I can run down some RX-3s in the SVRA reunion races. So many projects, so little money!

Not sure the numbers on the 350z but it wouldn't surprize me.

[Ron Earp]

Hey Tristan,

I'm pretty sure the 350Z is outside the R envelope. I believe those motors started at 275hp in the first year but are now up to 300+ hp. It would appear the car would have a serious weight problem if classed in R.

One day there will need to be an ITQ.....but for now ITR looks to be an extremely good thing for IT.

Ron

[pimpm3]

I am still surprised by the lack of mention of the Type-r Integras they did very well in touring car against the BMW's for years. On top of that they are reliable and there is a ton of support out there for them.

[Ron Earp]

As you know they are classed. It seems I heard in passing of one being built though, but I don't know if I heard that at the track or on this board. They have a light weight in the class and light makes right.

R

[JIgou]

Ron, that was probably me running my mouth about the Type-R. :P

I'm familiar with one that is jointly owned by a couple of guys, one living in Midiv (Dave Volante) and one in Cendiv (Bob Roth).

Their plan is to set it up for long enduros (Summit, Nelson, etc) so the car won't be an all-out ITR build...but it's still a quick car. Like you said, lightness does go a ways.

Right now it's still being un-NASA'd - it has a couple of little items that were legal for the Honda Challenge class it was in but aren't quite legal for ITR. All will be right by Spring, however....

Jarrod

[Z3_GoCar]

I totally agree driving the car you end up building or buying as a race car gives the driver a better feel and edge for the car.

One depressing thing is that I always drove BMW's when I was a yuppie out of college and I can't bear to drive one again, but the 3 series cars are so damn good. It's like, fight the force, don't let logic drag you over and drive for the empire....
[/b]

Ben,

Racing a BMW is a very different experience than you remember. As a racer you get to experience how great these cars actually are, hands on. I drive a Z3 because I've been a fan of the car for a long time, not necessarily of BMW, because I like the classic roadsters. Since owning a Z3 I've become a fan of the "empire". The Z3 is an interesting car to me but it's sort of a oddball. There are some down-sides to the Z3, the hood for example is rare as hen-teeth as it's the most likely panel to be damaged, and there are no aftermarket sources for most body or chassis parts. The sedans are better than the Z3 in this and many other aspects.

James

[benspeed]

The 3 series BMW is one of the best platforms ever. I've driven a number of ITS and JP cars and they are outstanding. They are "the empire". I just want someting more unique for ITR. Sorta why I messed around with the Fiero this year - looking for a unique car that might run up front.

Smart money would be a 3 series. Looked at a several cars that would be great projects for around $4-5K. Still looking for that slicktop Z though - it would be fun to show up with a really fast, totally new IT car.

Anybody got feedback on what to do with a T-top car? Rivet a metal roof on there?

[Parrish57]

Anybody got feedback on what to do with a T-top car? Rivet a metal roof on there?
[/b]

Ben... I've been asking the same question in the Datsun/Nissan forum. So far not one response. I passed on a really good deal on a T-top car because of the uncertainty.

Anybody?

[JoshS]

Can't you have a body shop replace the T-top roof with a solid roof?

I know several people (myself included) who hve done that wth cars that originally had a moonroof. I would think the same could be done for a T-top.

[Gary L]

Ben... I've been asking the same question in the Datsun/Nissan forum. So far not one response. I passed on a really good deal on a T-top car because of the uncertainty.
Anybody? [/b] I'm not sure I understand the question... that is, with the possible exception of the fact that occurrences of "sunroofs" in the last 2 sentences below must be taken to mean "sunroofs or T-tops", which IMHO was probably the intent. Otherwise it makes no sense, as there certainly were for instance, glass T-tops in abundant existence when the rule was written. Therefore, why would they have been purposely excluded? From GCR 9.1.3.D.8.f (Body/Structure):


Removable sunroof or T-top may be retained if bolted or welded in, or removed completely. Glass sunroofs must be removed. All sunroofs may be replaced with panel or replacement skin of the same material as the original surrounding roof material.</span>

[/b]

[Parrish57]

Josh... The problem with replacing the entire roof is that there were only about 2500 "slick tops" ever produced. Finding the donor could be problematic but if you found one in a salvage yard a body shop could do the swap.

Gary... Thanks for reposting that. I read the rule before but I guess I read an assumption into it. As I read it again it doesn&#39;t say anything about glass T-tops being removed and replaced with sheet metal, but it seems pretty obvious that it would be a necessary safety item.

Better to keep looking for a slick top.

[JoshS]

Josh... The problem with replacing the entire roof is that there were only about 2500 "slick tops" ever produced. Finding the donor could be problematic but if you found one in a salvage yard a body shop could do the swap.[/b]

I replaced mine with a new part, and the car is at least as rare (although a little newer). Have you confirmed that a new roof panel isn&#39;t available?

[GKR_17]

...so I had to put 100 lbs in the trunk.
[/b]

:018:

[benspeed]

I drove 2 300ZX cars this weekend. Both had no balls and felt really heavy.

Granted each car at just under 100K miles but I wasn&#39;t impressed. The 968 I drove last fall would crush the Z cars I drove on Saturday.

[Crashtest]

:018:
[/b]

I know its not in the rules that I can put it in the trunk.
I made sure Josh knew before I ever raced with him that I had it there and showed him why.
300 lbs of lead is allot of material to fill a s2000 floor....too much in fact that is why 2 of my 50 lb blocks are back there.

I do not think there is any competitive advantage with it back there...if anything it makes it oversteer more than if it was on the pass floor.

I am going to be trying to work it out over the winter to get it in the proper place..

[Knestis]

I am going to be trying to work it out over the winter to get it in the proper place..[/b]

Remember that roll cage material requirements specific MINIMUM wall thickness... :)

K

[JeffYoung]

And minimum number of bars....plus, there are things you are alllowed to take out...that you don&#39;t have to take out....

[dickita15]

make sure your exhaust is sturdy and that you have good tow hooks.

[benspeed]

OK Folks - the ITR search has ended. What we&#39;re looking at as a street to track project is a &#39;99 Boxster with 71K miles, including hardtop, mint interior and 9/10 exterior, needs nothing but a pair of rear tires, purchased for $11.5K. Heck - even got a 90 day warranty.

I figure this project will cost a ton more than the Fiero. But the difference is this car has a ton of potential in the chassis. I&#39;m be curious what we can get out of the motor. I will dyno it for a baseline and share the numba. This will be a gradual buildup

This is gonna be FUN! Who cares it&#39;s cold out - got a heater in the shop. Let the cash evaporation begin!

[Ron Earp]

Ben,

You need to get in touch with Marboro Mafia on here. He knows where a Boxster is for $6k. Engine is damaged, but $6k might be a good deal for a parts car or a race car.

Ron

[benspeed]

Thanks Ron, but I&#39;m looking for a very clean car that I can drive around and have some fun with while I build it up. No salvage or big repairs up front - I bought a clean, one owner car - passed on some real cheap $8-9K auction & salvage stuff. $6k is the lowest I&#39;ve ever heard of!

[dj10]

OK Folks - the ITR search has ended. What we&#39;re looking at as a street to track project is a &#39;99 Boxster with 71K miles, including hardtop, mint interior and 9/10 exterior, needs nothing but a pair of rear tires, purchased for $11.5K. Heck - even got a 90 day warranty.

I figure this project will cost a ton more than the Fiero. But the difference is this car has a ton of potential in the chassis. I&#39;m be curious what we can get out of the motor. I will dyno it for a baseline and share the numba. This will be a gradual buildup

This is gonna be FUN! Who cares it&#39;s cold out - got a heater in the shop. Let the cash evaporation begin!

[/b]



Hey Ben, congrats!! :023: Are you doing all your own work on it?

[benspeed]

Thanks Dan - I&#39;ll do the easy stuff but will pay talented people to do the motor. Anybody who&#39;s seen me weild a wrench knows I should stick to being an exec. But the idea is to have some fun and build out as much of the car myself. Safety devices makes a nice cage for the car and since it&#39;s a soft top the cage should be pretty easy - I&#39;ll go welded in. Final chassis setup I will have an engineer do and then run some test days with the engineer to dial it in.

My hope is to get it on track - maybe not at the level I&#39;d like, but run some of the short tracks up here late summer - in a showroom stock level of prep and just gradually develop the car. I&#39;ll run the stock car most of &#39;08 but ultimately I think that car will get phased out unless GT2 becomes a reality - there is no way to really make that car competitive in GT1, SPO was a yawn and GTA is not run in the NE.

Really been missing that IT level of competition.

It&#39;ll be fun to run with you - that BMW is damn quick.

[dj10]

Thanks Dan - I&#39;ll do the easy stuff but will pay talented people to do the motor. Anybody who&#39;s seen me weild a wrench knows I should stick to being an exec. But the idea is to have some fun and build out as much of the car myself. Safety devices makes a nice cage for the car and since it&#39;s a soft top the cage should be pretty easy - I&#39;ll go welded in. Final chassis setup I will have an engineer do and then run some test days with the engineer to dial it in.

Really been missing that IT level of competition.

It&#39;ll be fun to run with you - that BMW is damn quick. [/b]



Ben, it will be great to have you back in IT again and with a top of the line car. :023: It sounds like your smart, and that you know your own limitations. I bet you&#39;ll have fun with this car, post some pictures as the car is getting built. Best of luck with it.

[mlytle]

My hope is to get it on track - maybe not at the level I&#39;d like, but run some of the short tracks up here late summer - in a showroom stock level of prep and just gradually develop the car. I&#39;ll run the stock car most of &#39;08 but ultimately I think that car will get phased out unless GT2 becomes a reality - there is no way to really make that car competitive in GT1, SPO was a yawn and GTA is not run in the NE.

Really been missing that IT level of competition.

It&#39;ll be fun to run with you - that BMW is damn quick.
[/b]

GTA was added as a class for 08 in the MARRS series....

[benspeed]

I&#39;m coming to Summit to run GTA at least twice - and will run GT1 the rest of the season so I&#39;ve got guys to race in class - It&#39;ll be humbling.

[benspeed]

Boxster aquisition completed!