2008 MARRS Schedule

[grjones1]

Now that we've begun the off-season and we're not working on the cars and most participants are caught up in the Mazda thing on another forum, should we take a survey of MARRS participants as to whether or not we should have found a way to go to VIR with MARRS next year?

I'm still of a mind that the majority of us would have preferred to have raced there under the MARRS banner, and we were pretty much ignored for dubious reasons. Shall we stir the pot?

[Cobrar05]

Ignored by whom?

[grjones1]

The people who make up the schedule.

[grjones1]

Looks like I was the only one dissatisfied. :dead_horse:

[Gregg]

Or perhaps you are the only one who feels like you were ignored. We presented three options on scheduling to the membership at our Open Competition Committee meeting at MARRS 7 (August 11th). These options were presented after previously gaining feedback from drivers (via their driver reps), discussing various invitations from other regions, and in the case of Mother's Day event at VIR, after the issues we had with the '07 event were discussed and presented to NCR.

Although I personally don't want to see the MARRS series become the "Summit Point" series I personally have little issue with the '08 MARRS schedule. The "slop" we have built into it gives me the opportunity to attend a number of events that were previously off-limits due to conflicts. If you want to spend Mother's day at VIR, you can. If you want to attend the IT-Festival at M.O. in August, you can. If you want to do the Sprints at the Glen, you can.

[grjones1]

We presented three options on scheduling to the membership at our Open Competition Committee meeting at MARRS 7 (August 11th). These options were presented after previously gaining feedback from drivers (via their driver reps), discussing various invitations from other regions, and in the case of Mother's Day event at VIR, after the issues we had with the '07 event were discussed and presented to NCR.

The options were presented. I know I spoke at that meeting. Was a poll taken? (I know, as I said at the meeting, 169 MARRS drivers went to VIR Mother's Day last year and that in itself was a pretty good indicator.) Again what was the result of the opinions carried by the Drivers' Reps. I know I never heard the count. In fact I never received a sheet to indicate my preference. All I know is that the Comp Board made some arbitrary decision that people did not want to race on Mother's Day at VIR which was proven untrue by the fact that we did race on Mother's Day at VIR - 169 of us.. And none of your "opportunities" put us in a MARRS context.

What we got was the "appearance" that we were given a choice. No real proof that our choice was followed.

Please explain all this.

[Gregg]

I'm not going to battle this out with you G. Robert, but I think you might have missed the following:


Originally posted by Me
...and in the case of Mother's Day event at VIR, after the issues we had with the '07 event were discussed and presented to NCR.
Just because there were 169 drivers from the MARRS series does not mean that 169 region members came away pleased. Just something to think about.

Was every MARRS participant asked about their feelings re: VIR? Or did you just want those who attended the '07 event to be polled?

Nope.

And we didn't have one for Nelson or the Glen or any of the other tracks and regions we've raced with previously. Nor do I think one is necessary.

As rep for my class I am constantly talking with my drivers, getting the pulse of those I represent. I don't think I ever need to take a separate number count of each of my drivers as I have a good feeling as to where most stand, and I'm sure the other reps have a similar report w/ their fellow drivers. I have been asked by my fellow ITA (and previously IT7) drivers to represent them on the Competition Committee. In doing so they trust that I will act in their best interest. If you don't feel the same way about your rep, you can step up and volunteer your services to your fellow drivers.

Finally, as mentioned previously, if you want to race at VIR over Mothers day, load up the trailer and give the SARRC guys some hell. You can do that, G. Robert. Nobody's gonna stop you.

[grjones1]

Gregg,

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you are sounding like a Northern Virginia bureaucrat. You are obvuscating the issue with a discussion of Driver Rep relationships. (It may be known, mine are not in good condition.)

I think it's pretty straightforward, of those drivers and workers who attend MARRS races, how many want to got to VIR on Mother's Day next year? Anybody can accomplish that survey.

The issue is how many people actually wanted to race at VIR with MARRS? Where's the count? How many wanted to and how many didn't. I know quantitatively 169 went to VIR (40 some less than that went to Nelson) on Mother's Day that is the only objective evidence I have to go on. As to how many were satisfied again I only have my "feel" that most were, so so much for "sensing" the majority.

My Rep said theat "everybody was dissatisfied" (or words to that effect). Everybody I talked to had a great time. So why don't we take a count? Not some subjective feel by Drivers' Reps on what they "think" people want to do. Smells of oligarchy to me.

And as far as my becoming a rep: because I race a Fiesta, my car is not always ready and I miss races and i feel the rep should always be in attendance not to mention the fact that the majority of my class race Hondas and they tend to hang together.

[Gregg]

Well, for every person you spoke to that had a wonderful time, I can name just as many who did not like the format of the event, the pairings, the number of cars/group, how they were treated by event officials (whether they be drivers or volunteers), or how much they paid for the perceived quality of the track time.

No event is run perfectly and we presented some ideas that we felt would be beneficial to our region's members going forward. Since we couldn't come to agreement on those, it won't be a MARRS event this year.

As for your excuses for not volunteering your services to your class, I'll let them stand with just one comment.


Originally posted by grjones1
And as far as my becoming a rep: because I race a Fiesta, my car is not always ready and I miss races and i feel the rep should always be in attendance not to mention the fact that the majority of my class race Hondas and they tend to hang together.

After having my car destroyed at the last MARRS race of '06, I didn't have a car to race until hours before the Labor Day Double. That didn't keep my fellow racers from placing their trust and interests in my care for the rest of the season and it certainly didn't preclude me from working on their behalf (and even showing up for events sans race car).

So what's your excuse again? http://www.clipartof.com/images/xsmall/228.gif

[dave parker]

Robert
Relax.
The schedule is the schedule, and it is too late to change it now. Rather than brow-beating Ginsberg(no matter how fun it can be) you should probably chat with Gayle Lorenz our Regional Executive.
I think that would be more enlightening for you as to how the region makes decisions like this.

Be aware that my standard answer to people that complain about how the DC Region does things is to ask, "What volunteer position are you going to fill to make the changes you want happen?"

I also realize everytime I go away to race how good it is to race at home with my own region. Not that other regions don't do it right, its just different.


cheers
dave parker

[grjones1]

Why do I always end up defending myself on these things. Guys I've been in the WDC Region on and off since 1971. I have stacked tires, swept and bucket-brigaded rainwater, and worked flag stations at Summit and VIR, and even driver-instructed a few times, all before most of you were old enough to ride a bicycle. I have introduced myriads of people to our sport and crewed for a number of drivers in addition to driving. Please don't suggest to me I need to learn how to volunteer.

Again you are deflecting the issue.

I too ran afoul of NCR officialdom (I was called in for metal-to-metal that didn't happen, refused participation for belts that were 6-weeks out of date, and yelled at for parking in somebody's "reserved" parking place) and got it all worked out to everyone's satisfaction. (Imagine that!) And I still love the place and most of the people I encounter there.

In the case of next year's schedule I am convinced that a few people got upset with NCR officials and decided we (WDCR) wouldn't go back regardless of what the majority of others wanted. And until somebody proves to me that was not the case I will remain dissatisfied and suspect of our leadership. And yes I will trailer up and head back there, MARRS or no MARRS, and I'll probably wind up missing a MARRS event elsewhere because of it.

And Dave I spoke to Gayle by e-mail on this and I've waited for 2 weeks for a response - none has appeared.

Go play your fiddles somewhere else.

[Gregg]

I'm not dancing around or deflecting anything. Just pointing out how...umm...lame your excuse sounds.

Unfortunately, you choose not to believe me (and I presume don't believe what your own rep told you). I'm sorry to hear that you are so distrustful of the motives of all of the other drivers reps and worker chiefs and feel that the majority do not have the best interests of those they represent at heart.

[lateapex911]

Gregg,

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you are sounding like a Northern Virginia bureaucrat. . [/b]

Nope, nobody would take that as an attack! Hee hee...I almost spit my drink in my keyboard when I read that, and I don't even know what a Northern Va burea-whatever is!

[grjones1]

"Unfortunately, you choose not to believe me (and I presume don't believe what your own rep told you). I'm sorry to hear that you are so distrustful of the motives of all of the other drivers reps and worker chiefs and feel that the majority do not have the best interests of those they represent at heart."...Ginsberg

Another Northern Virginia bureaucratic trick: attributing your own words to somebody else to attack their position. I don't know most of the other Reps, how could I distrust them. How exactly did they vote? I still haven't heard. I would say from your methods I would not lean towards trusting you.

As a matter of fact the individual who represented our class at the Comp meeting (substituting for our absent Rep) was in favor of returning to VIR.

What the heck does my volunteerism have to do with the issue??! The decision for MARRS not to race at VIR next year regardless of the possibility that a majority of active participants may have preferred it all happened because I didn't become a Driver's Rep? What the heck kind of sence does that make?!

That's what I mean by obvuscation and deflection: don't answer the questions; create some other insignificant issue to hide the problem. That's exactly what happened at the open meetng at MARRS 7: show concern for membersship preferences then don't even take a vote. Do it the way you had already decided.

My apologies to Gayle, I was not aware she had been ill.

And Jake I was wondering how long it would take for you to chime in. I said he "sounded like"; I didnt say he was. That's not personal. (Email me, I'll define Northern VA bureaucrat for you - start with "liberal...") What's your take on racing at VIR without any personal repartee?

[spnkzss]

To add fuel to the fire. I would like to return to VIR in 2009. :P

I just hope it's with MARRS. I want a chance to catch Gregg there :)

[dj10]

Although I personally don't want to see the MARRS series become the "Summit Point" series I personally have little issue with the '08 MARRS schedule. [/b]



I'm sorry to see that the Marrs series has become just that, a"Summit Point Series" :( There is just to many great SE/ NE/ Central tracks to race. I can't imagine sending my whole race season at 1 track....but I bet you'll be good at it. B)

[erlrich]

Wow - so MARRS goes from having two away weekends to one (for the first time since when?), and suddenly it's a one-track series? Ok, if you say so. Hell, I was as bummed out as anyone to hear we were loosing the VIR date, but once our driver's rep (whose only responsibility is to ITA drivers BTW) explained it to us I better understood why the decision was made. And I guess the fact that they tried to find other dates with another region at both VIR and Charlotte means nothing?

All I can say is if you guys feel that the majority of the MARRS drivers were happy with the way things went at VIR this year (even thought only 30% of the drivers even went) then by all means take up a petition, start up a poll, whatever, just do something other than coming on a website and bitching about it.

[Cobrar05]

I dont understand what the beef is/was with the two day double at VIR. All of the doubles that I have run in either SCCA or NASA have been two day doubles sometimes with an open test day.

I will be at VIR regardless and I am not a MARRS competitor. I just liked the experience as it was and wonder what the problem was.

[grjones1]

... then by all means take up a petition, start up a poll, whatever, just do something other than coming on a website and bitching about it.
[/b]

I believe my original intention was to "take a poll "(re: "survey"). What better place than a website?

[Gregg]

I can't imagine sending my whole race season at 1 track....but I bet you'll be good at it. B)
[/b]
Don't assume I don't or won't leave my backyard. Actually, the MARRS series will be travelling to another track in '08...just not VIR. And while I consider myself to be a decent driver at SPR, I'd like to think that I'm no slouch at some of the other tracks around the country. Our schedule this year will more easily allow me to return to those tracks than in past years. Heck, I might even see you race at Road Atlanta for the second year in a row.

It should be noted, Dan, that you didn't go to VIR with us last year, you may have gone to Nelson but never started, and you were at Summit twice in '07. You did not run enough races to qualify for a MARRS championship in ITR '07. I don't think '06 was any different. This tells me that even if the MARRS series went to more than one away race in '08 there's a good chance you wouldn't be there anyhow.

So, G. Robert, should we be polling-- all DC Region members?
all DC Region drivers?
all DC Region volunteers and drivers?
all MARRS competitors?
all MARRS competitors that have raced at VIR previously?
or all MARRS competitors who put in enough races to qualify for a MARRS championship?
As Earl alluded to, and I had discussed with the drivers I represent, the region had made attempts prior to October to attend a VIR event with another region in '08. That didn't work out. So here we are. Hopefully G. Robert can find a statistically representative sample for his poll here on the Intrerwebs.

[grjones1]

"All DC Region volunteers and drivers" seems fair. Anything that gives us a true reading on whether or not most of the active membership prefers a race at VIR.

So far I think it's 4 to 1 for VIR.

Actually the 169 participation this year is statistically representative considering that probably only 30% of the drivers and workers go out of region. but I know it's asking a lot for people to reach that conclusion. As far as having problems with NCR, I don't think any race weekend goes without some dissatisfaction with officialdom - that's part of the game.

[JamesB]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.

[grjones1]

James,
You missed some fun racing (if you enjoy traffic). And really those people (NCR) push the schedule along (few delays). I would argue also that we get as many on-course minutes at VIR as we do elsewhere even in a 2-day venue. (Two quals: 4-6 laps, 15 minutes each= 30 minutes; and two races: 10 laps 30-45 each minutes= 90 minutes for total 120 minutes). That's pretty close to a Summit 3-day event 2 quals: 30 minutes and two races: 90 minutes for total 120 minutes).

If I sound like I'm screaming I guess I just don't appreciate people pretending to want my input and then ignoring it. But it happens that way sometimes. I think we might have worked a little harder to resolve our differences and come out with a MARRS race at VIR in 2008.

[spnkzss]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.
[/b]

I guess I missed all the arguments. I enjoyed myself last year. I didn't like racing ITA cars in my ITC car, but that is ok. Next time I'll be racing ITA cars in an ITA car so it'll be more fun. The only other problem I had was while I was sitting in impound the tech inspector was very rude to me about my window net flipped up. It is connected with a quick release at the top AND the bottom. I ignored him and continued on my way.

I even did the practice day because I have never been before. I would gladly go back, jut not in '07 because I'm building a new car. My only concern is just since we stopped will we ever go again? It kind of reminds me of the whole split grid thing. We didn't do it once and it basically went away. I DO NOT WANT TO BRING THAT INTO THIS CONVERSATION, I'm just using it as a comparision. You get rid of something that you have been doing and you prove to some people you don't need it so it goes away for good. THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING.... PLEASE. :dead_horse:

[grjones1]

Spanky,
I'm sorry I wont have the opportunity to chase you again. (Not that it looked like I would have caught you.) (C is taking a real beating with numbers.)

Appreciate your comments and understood. I guess if we spend our entry fee at VIR instead of elsewhere the message might get across.

[jjjanos]

All I can say is if you guys feel that the majority of the MARRS drivers were happy with the way things went at VIR this year (even thought only 30% of the drivers even went) then by all means take up a petition, start up a poll, whatever, just do something other than coming on a website and bitching about it.
[/b]

30% is probably a gross underestimate.

Approx 170 drivers competed in the MARRS-designated classes.
Approx 300 drivers are regular MARRS competitors.

I leave the math to your calculation.

re: returning to VIR -

Some drivers did not want to return at all. Some did regardless. Some wanted to return if various concerns were addressed. It is not at all clear whether a majority would be in favor of returning now that our concerns were expressed to NCR. It is not at clear what NCRs' response was to those concerns.

The competition committee did not meet between the open meeting and the meeting where the final schedule was delivered to the committee.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a driver to gauge sentiment in a public forum in advance of lobbying for an addition to the 2008 MARRS schedule - particular since the date is open as for as MARRS competitors are concerned. In fact, I would expect someone to gauge support prior to raising the issue with either the competition committee or the BoD.

[Cobrar05]

G. R. I don't see why your here screaming. I skipped 2007 because I knew it was going to be horrible on a 2 day program. I told my rep I would skip it again in 2008 if it stayed with the 2 day compressed schedule. But if you want to go, go. Just know it wont be a points event, which to me is not that big of a deal for 2008 since I was going to skip VIR anyway.
[/b]

I don't understand the problem with the 2 day schedule. As I am a SEDiv participant all the doubles are two days plus a practice day.

What is it about the 2 day schedule that makes it so "horrible"??

I will also offer that while Summit is a nice place, Nelson Ledges is not so nice and VIR is considered by many to be the best road course in North America. You can make and argument for some other courses in that best course conversation, but Summit isnt in there and Nelson Ledges certainly isn't.

Why would anyone blow off an annual event on the full course at VIR?

[jjjanos]

I don't understand the problem with the 2 day schedule. As I am a SEDiv participant all the doubles are two days plus a practice day.

What is it about the 2 day schedule that makes it so "horrible"??

Why would anyone blow off an annual event on the full course at VIR?
[/b]

89 cars ranging from ITA to ITC. Fun for an enduro. Not fun for a sprint with very limited track time.

Qualifying determined not by fast time but whether you were unlucky enough to get put behind a high HP car that parks himself in turns coupled with the futility of going into the pits to separate yourself from that car because you're only going to get a few laps. Pit and all you do is come out behind another brick or be a brick for someone else. Hang back and try to get distance for a flying lap and be a brick for someone else.

Front of the field at Oak Tree while the back of the field is just being released from the grid.
Pace laps done at race speed on stone cold tires.

[erlrich]

30% is probably a gross underestimate.

Approx 170 drivers competed in the MARRS-designated classes.
Approx 300 drivers are regular MARRS competitors.

I leave the math to your calculation.[/b] Yeah, except if you're going to play that game let's play it right: approx 110 regular MARRS competitors went to VIR, out of 300 who are regular MARRS competitors (or 36%), or approx. 170 MARRS competitors (i.e. competitors who earned points in at least one MARRS event) went to VIR, out of 580 who are MARRS competitors (or 30%). How about we split the difference, and say 33%?

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a driver to gauge sentiment in a public forum in advance of lobbying for an addition to the 2008 MARRS schedule - particular since the date is open as for as MARRS competitors are concerned. In fact, I would expect someone to gauge support prior to raising the issue with either the competition committee or the BoD.[/b] The only problem with that IMO, and I think Gregg was trying to point it out, is that trying to gauge sentiment for what all MARRS drivers want by posting something on a forum dedicated to the IT class, where only a minority of the MARRS IT drivers frequent is kind of pointless. If you want a true representation of what the MARRS drivers want, then you need to poll the MARRS drivers.

That would be like creating a new IT rule based on what the small percentage of drivers who frequent this forum want, and we know that would never fly, right?

[mlytle]

allow me to join gregg as one of the decision making enties for the sked...i am the ITR/ITS drivers rep.

1/ in thee WDCR, we don't make decisions by the popular vote of the majority. every class has the opportunity to have its voice represented through its drivers rep. you have an issue you want addressed? talk to your drivers rep. don't like the way the drivers rep is runing things? well then volunteer to take the job next year.

2/ sked for 08 - all the drivers reps talked with their drivers and got a feel for what was desired for 08. then we all hashed it out over several meetings. desire was for two away races. one at vir and one somewhere else. the somewhere else was nelsons. there were many issues brought up with the mothers day vir race having to do with too many cars, the track sked and most importantly, the mothers day weekend. there was a strong push to not travel on mothers day. sooo, we tried for a vir date with a different region. it didn't work. oh well. we also tried to swap in a charlotte date but that didn't work either. getting on a region calendar is not easy. there is a lot of competition for dates. ok, so it didn't work for 08 and we are stuck with a "one track pony" call it the summit point road racing series instead of marrs. there are a bunch of us that don't like it, but there were no hidden agendas or vendettas against vir. it is just the way the cookie crumbled when we tried to improve the sked.

3/ the august open meeting - we deliberately DID NOT do a "poll". the group at the meeting is generally not representative of the entire racing crowd. we have the open meeting to DISCUSS options, not make decisions. the comp committee takes what we learn at these meetings back with us to our regular decision processes.

4/ don't call gayle - she has enough on her plate. we (the drivers reps) are who you should be talking with.

5/ more 08 sked - as gregg said, the marrs sked for 08 really allows for some outside the series travel. nearly all the marrs races are the last weekend of the month. enjoy the opportunity to travel.

6/ 09 sked - looking forward to having AT LEAST three away races in 09. personnally, i feel it is pretty lame to call it "MARRS" if you can win the series without ever traveling away from summit point. I feel it should be required to do several away races if you want to win. you know where my votes on the sked will be going...

marshall
ITR #64
ITR/ITS WDCR drivers rep

[grjones1]

This is one point of access to use. Why not use it?

And while we're throwing numbers around: Given the choice of going to VIR, Nelson, or the Glen, MARRS drivers choose 170 to 120 or so to what? 30 respectively in favor of VIR.

And the point here involves active MARRS participants what's wrong with the 300 actual figure? People who race once a year probably go to the most convenient location and one must expect WDC "casual" participants to go to Summit.

Hey, the "money" went to VIR hands down. And it would probably have gone again in 2008 given the opportunity to gain MARRS points there. Admit it, most MARRS drivers want to race at VIR.


Thanks Marshall. This was the kind of response I was hoping for: some real information. At least someone had the guts to say the decision was not based on the wishes of most of the participants. But like I said, if you aren't going to give my vote consideration, don't ask for it. And again the "Rep" thing is just administrative rant meaning "If you don't like it go work in T&S or something, leave me alone."

And please extend my best wishes to Gayle.

[mlytle]

this is obviously going nowwhere.

the "most" drivers did not want to go to vir on mothers day weekend for a double. input was conveyed to the drivers reps who voted for them. period. end.

the decision was to try a different weekend or a different track.

the 08 sked is not going to change, no matter how many internet polls are started.

you want to race at vir mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.

[jjjanos]

Yeah, except if you're going to play that game let's play it right: approx 110 regular MARRS competitors went to VIR, out of 300 who are regular MARRS competitors (or 36%), or approx. 170 MARRS competitors (i.e. competitors who earned points in at least one MARRS event) went to VIR, out of 580 who are MARRS competitors (or 30%). How about we split the difference, and say 33%?[/b]

Nope.

Define Regular MARRS competitor. I'd hazard a guess that anyone serious about running for a season position was there - though I'd love to see the statistical analysis.

Of the 176 people who competed in 50% of the events, 109 were there or 62%.

I'm getting an excel version of the final points and will do the same analysis for the entire set of entrants.


The only problem with that IMO, and I think Gregg was trying to point it out, is that trying to gauge sentiment for what all MARRS drivers want by posting something on a forum dedicated to the IT class, where only a minority of the MARRS IT drivers frequent is kind of pointless. If you want a true representation of what the MARRS drivers want, then you need to poll the MARRS drivers. [/b]

Other than specmiata.com, where are you going to find a larger concentration of the drivers? More importantly, it simply is a data point to be used and is no less scientific or accurate than the who wants to bitch about VIR method used by may DRs.

Not all of the DRs or chiefs are as diligent as Gregg. When I was an active flagger, the F&C chiefs never polled the troops. I know of one IT rep who stated that his drivers DID want to return to VIR and yet said nothing at the meeting. The system used by DC isn't infallible.

No harm can come of seeing what the feeling is here.

[mlytle]

all the data analysis in the world ain't gonna prove squat because;
-it doesn't show how many folks went to vir because they HAD to for points, whether they wanted to or not.
and
-it doesn't show how many don't want to go back due to the conditions last year.

analyse away.....;)

[jjjanos]

this is obviously going nowwhere.

the "most" drivers did not want to go to vir on mothers day weekend for a double. input was conveyed to the drivers reps who voted for them. period. end.[/b]

I call road apples.

Which is it - we aren't going to VIR because of the "issues" related to 2-day double and track time or Mother's Day? Cause at the time VIR/Mom's day was first raised it was presented as the operational aspects and at the Comp meeting where the schedule was dictated to us, I was told the same thing - the operational issues. Mothers' Day was a secondary issue.

So, now it's a Mother's Date issue exclusively? Riiiiighhhht.


the decision was to try a different weekend or a different track.[/b]
Wow - so Gayle lied to me when she said at the last comp meeting that NCR had no response about turning the event into either a 3-day or a single? She'd have no reason to raise this issues if it was a Moms Day thing. I'll have to ask Gayle about that.


the 08 sked is not going to change, no matter how many internet polls are started.[/b]

Why? I thought the Doctrine of Papal Infalibility related only to decisions made by the Pope. Guess I need to brush up on my latin cause I clear missed the bit about the Comp Committee.



you want to race at vir mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.
[/b]

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. You don't want to run for MARRS points on Mothers' Day - vote with your trailer and don't go.

Let's cut to the chase - the most vocal drivers reps don't want to race on Mothers' Day, therefore and regardless of what additional or new information may be gathered, MARRS shall not race on Mothers Day.










all the data analysis in the world ain't gonna prove squat because;
-it doesn't show how many folks went to vir because they HAD to for points, whether they wanted to or not.
and
-it doesn't show how many don't want to go back due to the conditions last year.

analyse away.....;)
[/b]

yep and trying to shout down someone attempting to gather that information won't show it either - but it will guarantee that those who don't want to go back to VIR get their way.

Oddly, very reminiscent of the way competition committee meetings work.


And frankly, if the idea of not returning to VIR for mothers day is so damn popular, then G. Robert's attempt to whip up support won't go anywhere.

So, why the attempt to muzzle him?

Y'all think about that.

[grjones1]

you want to race at vir [sic] mothers day? vote with your trailer and drive down there anyway in 08.

Gee, I think I heard that a couple of times. Sounds like, "If you don't like it, volunteer for something."

To tell you the truth I think the whole "Mother's Day" thing was a hoax. A few people may not like racing on Mother's Day, but we and a myriad of other racing bodies have done it for decades, as I said at the MARRS 7 meeting, take your mother to the race.

If nothing else I think we've proven that WDCR leadership is an oligarchy (always has been, why am I outraged?). Any dissent will be dealt with with sarcasm or arrogance, or simply "get lost."

[mlytle]

wow dude, you appear to have some serious issues.

have a nice day.

[grjones1]

Yea "Dude," I have serious issues with people who pretend to respect the wishes of others when all along they are interested only in furthering their own self-aggrandizement and their own hidden agendas.

Yes I have issues with people who are supposed to be looking after the people they represent and who look to them to exercise decent judgement, and those looked to find a way to spoil the opportunity to race within our series at one of the best (if not the best) racing facility in the country. They whine about large fields, mixed groups, one pace driver who doesn't know what he's doing (like it doesn't happen everywhere at least once a year), and getting their feelings hurt because some idiot in the tower doesn't respond to a call. Then they create the issue of Mother's Day like we haven't raced on that day for the last 40 years. Give me a break.

A given set of luminaries got their egos bruised and decided they'd get even by picking up their toys and stayiing home. Problem is most of us wanted to stay and play because we were having a good time in spite of a few "official lapses of judgement" like we haven't ever struggled through lapses of official judgement in our racing experience. Yea I have issues, Dude.

[ajn]

wow dude, you appear to have some serious issues.

have a nice day.
[/b]

[spnkzss]

I guess there really is some miscommunication going on. There obviously was in issue last year somewhere. People complained and we (WDCR) decided we wouldn't go again. Not as a group anyways. Again, I hope this just doesn't mean we pissed off the other region enough that they won't welcome us back.

On a side note, it's interesting, (myself included) that it is the ITC drivers that want to go back to VIR so bad.

[lateapex911]

I'm confused...and I am sure I'm not seeing the deep down facts, or have them wrong. But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year, so whats the big deal? Just go to the race and forget about Mars points? If the track is cool go race and have fun? We're all big boys and can race wherever we darn please, right? I know I'll be going to VIR next year, and I bet I have a great time with my friends from the area.

[jjjanos]

I'm not endorsing the idea that the CC got this wrong. I'm endorsing the idea that it might have got it wrong and I see no harm in someone trying to determine that.

Frankly, I'd like to go to VIR over Mothers Day and the likelihood that I go depends on whether MARRS is there for the double M/S event. If MARRS goes, I'll proably crew or flag. If they don't, I'll try to drive the weekend. Why? 89 cars in a single group won't happen if MARRS isn't there.



I'm confused...and I am sure I'm not seeing the deep down facts, or have them wrong. But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year, so whats the big deal?[/b]

re: G.R. Jones finished 4th in the points for ITC.

re: deep down facts - traditional SCCA problems - large group of alpha males, lack of communication and the traditional feeling, whether justified or not, that higher command is promoting its own agenda and not the wishes of the rank-and-file.

Alpha males: I think this one explains itself.

Communication: The committee last issued official minutes...never. Reliance on DRs to get the word out insufficient as some reps are good about soliciting input and providing reports, others are not so good. E.g. is the reason the date or operational matters?

From my DR, I was left with the impresion that it was a combination of both, but that if progress was made on the operational matters, we would return if another VIR date could not be had. Others are maintaining that the issue was the specific date only and that a return for the double was never even on the table. That's a communication breakdown.

Agendas: We've just been told that the only independently verifiable source of driver sentiment - the open meeting - is completely disregraded as a source for determining drivers' desires. It is only to provide additional options. Well, there's not much point in having the bloody meeting then is there?

Agendas: A driver who participates in the series is attempting to determine whether the committee accurately represented the desires of the majority of the drivers and he is basically told to STFU and live with what he's been told. Kind of gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling about just how accurately the wishes of the drivers have been represented, doesn't it?

The committee bascially can make decisions against the wishes of the majority of the participants - both drivers and officials - in the series because the committee's decisions are done by majority vote of those sitting on the committee regardless of how many stakeholders they represent. Think Senate, not House of Reps. It then it can correctly claim that the majority prevailed, but at the same time, the majority really didn't. Or did it?

E.g. the pace car rep gets the same vote that the F&C chief does. ITC gets the same vote that SM gets. FF, CF, FA, FB, FE, FM, FC each could get a vote despite there being about 9 people in total who compete in those classes while ITA, who represents 20+ gets a single vote. Thank gawd the fast formula guys only send a single rep.

Heck, I'm in ITC and I think my own class probably shouldn't have a rep in 2008 based on the projected participation in the class, but as long as I'm entitled to a vote for the about 5 drivers who are going to compete, I'm in favor of using it.

[JamesB]

To answer the things thrown out at me.

Why I dont like the 2 day double. Shorter time on track but twice a day prep for the car and less time on course per run. With MARRS there due to the compressed groups and sessions to make it a 2 day double you have NO chance at a clean qualifing lap unless your out early, even with the 3 day setup with less cars per group it was hard to put down a good qualifing lap with traffic. In the end it's a very long tow to be stuffed on a crowded track that you love to race on...the fun just does not outweight the work for me.

I spoke with my trailer in 07. When asked about 08, I voiced my opinion, another 90 car run group no thanks, I won't be there.

Mothers day has nothing to do with it, I am single and my mother knows even if she lived close by I would be racing if a points race was on the schedule. I just saw how maddening it was for more then one class to get off grid and line up even remotely close to get a decent start, so its just not worth it to me. I dont mind playing in traffic, its fun at time, but not what I want to deal with for an entire race.

And I feel like I get proper representation from my DR and agree with his decisions. He has gotten better about communicating with the group when we are not at the track, and has always responded to my questions and requests. That and the 08 schedule doesnt bother me at all, I like it since it gives me the chance to run off to other tracks if I feel the desire.

[grjones1]

"But, it seems like Jones didn't really compete in the MARRS series last year...," Gulick

Ah Jake, you never get it right. But again I'm not the issue -the issue is "taxation without representation."

[lateapex911]

Point being that when peole get all upset about series changes (Narrc, MArrs, whatever) they are usually looking to win it. From what i've read here, you came in 4th in small field. So it appears points can't be your motive. As I said, I am missing something.

It also seems that some who post here are fine with how they are represented, others not. But hey, the club is a big multi layered machine, we all know that. And remember the phrase,"If you want it done your way, do it yourself". Ok, I paraphrased that,...;)

[grjones1]

[quote]
So it appears points can't be your motive. As I said, I am missing something.

How about : " I like racing at VIR and I'd like some (MARRS) points when I race there and most of the drivers in the series (MARRS) feel the same. And I'd like to see the wishes of most of the drivers followed.

(Why is it necessary to belittle my racing effort? What is your motive? [And not that it makes for a Tinker's damn, but I won 3 races in 15+car ITC fields against some pretty good drivers in 2003-2004 and finsihed 2nd in the championship year before last. No great shakes but I'll stand on it.] Partcipated in 6 out of 8 MARRS weekends in 2007; so why would I not be interested in points? You make no sense.)

Happy Thanksgiving.

[RP Performance]

FYI I think that Nasa will be at VIR 3 times in 2008 starting in Febuary. They have 2 races every weekend lots of track time.

[Cobrar05]

Go back and look at last season's NASA results.
February, two race groups 66 and 72 cars. 5 sessions total all weekend.
March, three runs groups 66, 53, 57. 5 sessions
July, same story.

VIR is popular. The turnout is heavy. When you go to road atlanta and sebring its the same deal. if you want clean qualifying laps settle for second string tracks like NL, SPR, and CMP. Nothing against those tracks. I only point out that the great tracks attract a big crowd.

[Matt Rowe]

Except that the track length is different. Once you apply that factor and show cars per mile those numbers aren't any different than an average MARRS weekend at SPR which I personally don't have a problem with.

Of course the other issue with the track length is the time may be the same but you get fewer laps in qualifying which makes a big difference when trying to learn the track and get a quick time.

Not to be picky but you can say "second string tracks" and also say don't take it personally.

[grjones1]

Just to keep things perfectly clear: I don't think anyone wants to suggest that those of us who race at Summit habitually have any less love for it and how things are run there than we have for a race out-of-region at VIR. Summit and the people who run things there have served us well for as long as we have raced there. And the numbers of people who show up to race a MARRS weekend at Summit certainly rival any other track in the country.

True VIR gives you higher sustained speeds and twisties and certainly the amenities are attractive but Summit too is an exciting course and a great place to race sports cars (as much fun as you can have on four, or two, wheels).

Let's not turn this into a comparisom between Summit and VIR. The issue is where the MARRS people want to race other than Summit.

Thank you

[Cobrar05]

Not to be picky but you can say "second string tracks" and also say don't take it personally.
[/b]

I don't think you are being picky. I could have said second tier rather than second string to have been more respectful.

My best track is Roebling Road and its a fine track. I would say that its of the same class as Summit Point.
They are both in that second tier of tracks that fall below Watkins Glen, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America and so forth. VIR is in that class with high profile race courses and Summit Point is not.

I think you knew that I meant that.

[Charlie Broring]

Great tracks don't mean great racing. Last year the racing at humble Nelson Ledges was better then overcrowded VIR.

I don't see the point of this rant. If you want to race VIR Mothers Day than just go. I know some of the ITB drivers plan on going. Without MARRS it should be less overcrowded and a better race.

Charlie

[grjones1]

Charlie,
Do we take that as a vote for not wanting to go to VIR within the MARRS series?

[Charlie Broring]

No. I took the position that seemed to best represent the feelings of the ITB drivers that I represent. ITB wanted to return to VIR if the format was improved to alleviate the track overcrowding and give up better racing. With the 2007 format the drivers feelings were very mixed and there was a lot of dissatisfaction from those who went this year. Most of the other drivers reps were more negative about returning. I really don't think you appreciate the effort that went into the schedule.

Enjoy the 2008 MARRS season for what it is. The dates are well spaced and offer plenty of opportunity to go to VIR, MO, or the Glen if you wish. However, it's unrealistic to expect MARRS to be everything for everybody.

Charlie

[grjones1]

I don't expect WDCR or SCCA to be able to please everybody all the time, that is obviously ridiculous. It was simply my impression and the impression of many who stood at the CC meeting at MARRS 7 that the schedule had already been set as far as VIR was concerned and nothing we said was going to change the CC's mind.

How many wanted to go back should not be superceded by who wanted to go back.

Thus the dissatisfaction: if you are going to make decisions before we ever get to express our opinions, why bother to ask our opinions? You say that many of the B people wanted to go back; I still earnestly beleive many others wanted to go back and the reasons for not going back leave some reason for doubt especially when we are not privy to discussions with NCR.

Just because a few driver's don't want to race on Mother's Day is not enough to do away with that weekend any more than it would be reason if a race weekend were scheduled on Father's Day or my daughters' birthdays or interefered with celebrations on Labor Day, or Valentine's Day, or whatever. Did NCR say they would give no consideration to changing some of the format? Did they say they would not correct problems with corner control? Would they not consider regroupng the fields or getting rid of that clueless pace car driver?

Look, we all aren't going to get our way, but we all do pay our dues and entry fees and put forth the effort to support and participate. That does give us a right to know fully what's going on and to put in our 2 cents and have it count, and this business of "we've made our decision now shut up and leave us alone" is not an attitude anybody should have to put up with.

I'm sure we all appreciate the effort our volunteers exert (after all we are all "volunteers" to whatever degree; however, those who volunteer to represent us should do just that: represent all of us. And in this case until we know what went down we're not all so very sure that our preferences were represented, or if they were represented were followed.

[BRAD BARNHOUSE]

I applaud the DC region for their accomplishments. It's impossible to race everywhere,you have to choose. I have raced the NYSRRC twice and MARRS twice. I chose to run MARRS last year, and that meant not going to MO for the IT fest, or Beaverun because they were on the same weekend as a MARRS race. Those tracks are 30 minutes, and 2hrs respectively from here. I passed several racers on the PA turnpike going the other way. I would like to see the MARRS Series race at several different tracks. I know there are some that would only like to race at SP. Is that not only a track championship.
There are so many playgrounds. Go and have fun.
Brad

[mlytle]

now i know how the ITAC felt two years ago trying to defend against the conspiracy theory crowd. where is that black helicopter avatar?

grjones - at least three of us on the comp committee have explained how the process worked in this thread. there is no conspiracy against vir. there is no movement to get rid of mothers day. there is no small group of members driving a hidden agenda. there is a group of volunteers who are putting a lot of work into running a race series for 400+ drivers to enjoy. you have been told what "went down". you appear to be ignoring reality in favor of continuing your rants against the sked for 08 for some reason.

[spnkzss]

I applaud the DC region for their accomplishments. It's impossible to race everywhere,you have to choose. I have raced the NYSRRC twice and MARRS twice. I chose to run MARRS last year, and that meant not going to MO for the IT fest, or Beaverun because they were on the same weekend as a MARRS race. Those tracks are 30 minutes, and 2hrs respectively from here. I passed several racers on the PA turnpike going the other way. I would like to see the MARRS Series race at several different tracks. I know there are some that would only like to race at SP. Is that not only a track championship.
There are so many playgrounds. Go and have fun.
Brad
[/b]

Yeah but the question is, are you coming back to play in '08?

[Dave Ebersole]

I live in Western PA but race the MARRS series. I raced once at VIR many years ago (2001 or 2002 I think) and love the track but don't like the 8 hour tow so I haven't been back. I have raced at the Glen and Nelson and would certainly race Mid-Ohio if we did a MARRS there. I would even race at Pocono if it were on the MARRS schedule. By the way, I raced in 8 of the 10 MARRS races in '07. The only 2 I missed were the VIR double.

[Andy Bettencourt]

now i know how the ITAC felt two years ago trying to defend against the conspiracy theory crowd. where is that black helicopter avatar?
[/b]

Welcome!!! :)



http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/PhilipSchneider/black-helicopter.jpg

[JeffYoung]

I'll ignore some of the diatribes against NCR, which in my view (although I am biased) is one of teh best run regions in the country and puts on a great show at VIR. Our corner workers and pace car drivers are top notch, enough said.

On to race scheduling issues.

Isn't the MARRS series coming down to run a SARRC/MARRS with Central Carolinas Region at Lowe's in June? SEDiv Racing website shows it on the schedule.

[Gregg]

http://www.sedivracing.org/2008Schedule.pdf

Interesting...as of a couple of weeks ago that event was showing as "canceled" on the tentative SEDiv schedule.

The plan was to attend this race but given the quiet hours issue on Sundays at Lowe's (our understanding is that racing couldn't commence until late morning), I'm afraid the decision was made not to make the trip as it would make for some very late exits on Sunday for 7+ hour drives back north. At one point there was a possibility of CCR landing a VIR date. That's who we would have been running w/ there if that had happened.

[grjones1]

now i know how the ITAC felt two years ago trying to defend against the conspiracy theory crowd. where is that black helicopter avatar?

grjones - at least three of us on the comp committee have explained how the process worked in this thread. there is no conspiracy against vir. there is no movement to get rid of mothers day. there is no small group of members driving a hidden agenda. there is a group of volunteers who are putting a lot of work into running a race series for 400+ drivers to enjoy. you have been told what "went down". you appear to be ignoring reality in favor of continuing your rants against the sked for 08 for some reason.
[/b]


Why is it that every time anyone questions a board's decision he is accused of being a "conspiracy theorist"?

Again you attack the individual and refuse to answer reasonable questions: What were the conversations with NCR and their answers to WDCR's concerns?

Because of the lack of information, some of us cannot help but think that there never was interaction with NCR related to the possibility of a SARRC/MARRS in 2008, and a few reps and the CC decided they didn't like the 2007 event and they weren't going back, without regard to a majority of the other participants. (The imposition of the Mother's Day complaint was only "blown smoke" that has never before been an issue.)

If those "on the inside" would answer the question that indeed someone talked to NCR and no compromise could be met, I'll forgo my opinion that my vote wasn't considered and apologize vehemently to any I may have offended. And if you desire relinquish my membership.

[JeffYoung]

I'm not on the inside. But I know from simply attending my region's monthly meeting that WDCR did talk to NCR about the issues they have with the SARRC/MARRS schedule. I am aware that there was an attempt to reach a consensus, and I think NCR even solicited suggestions from membership about the schedule.

Maybe if you would do the same you would get similar information?

The diatribe stuff gets old.

Sorry to hear that about Lowe's. Honestly, I doubt that CCR will be able to get a date at VIR given the problems NCr has had in just locking down existing dates. I do hear that CCR or SCR may go to Rockingham -- I assume that is too far for a MARRS date as well?

[jjjanos]

at least three of us on the comp committee have explained how the process worked in this thread. there is no conspiracy against vir. there is no movement to get rid of mothers day. there is no small group of members driving a hidden agenda. there is a group of volunteers who are putting a lot of work into running a race series for 400+ drivers to enjoy. you have been told what "went down". you appear to be ignoring reality in favor of continuing your rants against the sked for 08 for some reason.
[/b]

In this thread, we've had the members of the CC say that the reason it got pulled was because of Mother's Day and we've seen members say that the race got pulled was because of Mother's Day.

Let me repeat..

That's a communication breakdown.

My dog in this hunt is exactly opposite GRJ's - I don't want MARRS to go to the event previously known as the MARRS/SARRC double because I'll only race in it if we don't send MARRS down there.

Based on the lack of support being voiced here for sending MARRS down to VIR for the Mom's Day event - I think it is pretty clear that the members of IT.COM who race in MARRS do not want to go VIR that weekend as a series.

But I still don't think there was anything out of order in trying to gauge whether the decision had popular support.

[grjones1]

Based on the lack of support being voiced here for sending MARRS down to VIR for the Mom's Day event - I think it is pretty clear that the members of IT.COM who race in MARRS do not want to go VIR that weekend as a series....JJanos

I must concede the same. Still no evidence that the decisionmaking process was not flawed - that said without any "conspiracy theory" intended.

[seckerich]

Both series were put in a bad situation with the VIR race. You have half the drivers screaming about the extra day when they had to be there on Friday to qualify and the other half screaming about lack of track time in the two day format. Either way drivers loose. Lets hope they look at splitting up the groups for qual. sessions in the future if it can be worked out. Split groups over 50 cars and give a slightly shorter session. Might solve the crowding problems.

[jjjanos]

Both series were put in a bad situation with the VIR race. You have half the drivers screaming about the extra day when they had to be there on Friday to qualify and the other half screaming about lack of track time in the two day format. Either way drivers loose. Lets hope they look at splitting up the groups for qual. sessions in the future if it can be worked out. Split groups over 50 cars and give a slightly shorter session. Might solve the crowding problems.
[/b]

The problem, at least in my little old ITC car that makes speed in the twisty bits, is that with fields so large and classes running from ITA-ITC, I simply got freight trained at the start by cars with ALOT more HP than me who parked it in the twisty bits were I make my speed. I'm not talking the difference between say an ITC CRX (twisty) and an ITC VW (HP)... I'm talking the difference between ITC and ITA.

Last night, while watching tapes of the 2007 Summit Point and VIR races, I realized that for the SPR races I often was wondering - this hasn't ended yet? But when watching the VIR races, I wondered - it's over already? I just got clear of the chaff and I'm going to get to race with the wheat...

Frankly, I'd have loved to see the Sun AM qualifying dumped in favor of a Sunday race 1.5 times or twice as long as a regular regional. Grid could be set by best time from qualifying or race on Saturday. It probably would make the day even run faster because, even as fast as NCR keeps things moving, there's ALOT of down time between each session.