Sound Deadener Removal

[eiwoh316]

Hello,

I'm new to the IT area, but have been doing other odd racing here and there. I'm begining to prep a car, and have been studying the rules diligently. One thing I have notice is that people remove the melted on sound insulators on the floors. However, I cannot find that in the rules where the removal is approved. Can somebody tell me where this is.

The last thing I want to do is spend the next couple months prepping a car, only for it to be illegal.


Thanks

[mbuskuhl]

Welcome.

9.1.3.D.9.f. "Carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms may be removed."

[joeg]

Actually a fairly miserable job to remove...

[JeffYoung]

What did Kirk call this? Initiation into race car ownership?

One of those nasty things we all have to go through to actually become racers.

Do some searches on here, the topic comes up frequently as the best way to remove this stuff (dry ice, heat guns, some Home Depot citrus product).

[Greg Amy]

Actually a fairly miserable job to remove...[/b]
...and, if you're a bit light and may need to add weight, this stuff way down low is a great place to have it...

[RacerBowie]

...and, if you're a bit light and may need to add weight, this stuff way down low is a great place to have it...
[/b]

But the stuff inside the car just looks SOOOO crappy. Media blasting is the way to go!

[shwah]

...and, if you're a bit light and may need to add weight, this stuff way down low is a great place to have it...
[/b]
...and it sucks to realize this AFTER you have finished the dirty job, and have to go find a source to get it and put it back in :bash_1_:

[Greg Gauper]

Some cars are easier than others for some reason...

If you live in a northern region, let the car sit in an unheated garage with the temps below freezing and break the stuff up with a small hammer and scrapers. It will shatter like glass. Same technique as the the 'dry ice' method except it's free. My Honda was very easy to do in this manner, maybe 3-4 hours total.

[tom_sprecher]

Here in the Deep South the dry ice method do not work. I used an air chisel with a dulled bit and most of it popped out easily. Since my undercoating was tar based, those blue nonwoven shop towels soaked w/mineral spirits desolved anything that was left.

[shwah]

I just used a propane torch, heated it until it just started to bubble and scraped it off down to pimered metal in easy strokes with a putty knife. It was not hard at all, except for the hard to reach areas.

[joeg]

Like I said--miserable. Propane torch? like fire? Wear a repirator?

I prefer chemical paint stripper, but have used a heat gun, EZ-off oven cleaner, Dry Ice, chisels (both hand and air powered), rubber mallets, etc.

The nuts is liquid Nitrogen applied as a spray and chip off.

[shwah]

Nope - not a fume enhanced experience. Just heated it up enough to scrape it off, didn't light it on fire.

I guess some folks are worry warts. It was not that hard, and did not take that long, once I found an effective method.

[eiwoh316]

Welcome.

9.1.3.D.9.f. "Carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms may be removed."
[/b]

Thanks, but I read the rule as "their" to refer to carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome light, grab handles. As an OEM product engineer for carpet systems, these "melt sheets" are not part of the carpet system, nor attached to the carpet, and by my interpretation, not legal to remove based on this rule.

[mbuskuhl]

Thanks, but I read the rule as "their" to refer to carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome light, grab handles. As an OEM product engineer for carpet systems, these "melt sheets" are not part of the carpet system, nor attached to the carpet, and by my interpretation, not legal to remove based on this rule.
[/b]

Okay, then you probably shouldn't remove yours. The intent of the rules is for the tar to be removed, we can all probably agree on that. Any word can be twisted, didn't Clinton need the definition of "is"?

I'm done with the IT rules and brain dead from the twisted debates that go on about them. Washer bottles, sound deadening, jacking pads, drivetrain mounts.... I'm not going to debate it, it's not the kind of rules I want to race in, instead I've already decided to convert my car to a different organizations rules. When I want to play SCCA I''ll run ITE - where pretty much anything goes as long as you got the safety in place. Have fun.

[Knestis]

"g. Any paint scheme and markings meeting GCR specifications are permitted."

Had to paint the bottom of the car to match the scheme. Surely it's okay to prep the surface first?

K

[dickita15]

Mark,
If it is bad for your blood pressure, then I understand if you do not want to read these rules threads but such discussions taken to the extreme do serve a purpose. I would not condemn IT because of them.

Every time I make a modification to the car I want to understand what rule allows me to make it. There are some things on my car that I am sure somebody would say is not legal by their interpretation but none that I do not have a justification for. I know there are things on many other cars that I do not believe are legal. When I see one it forces me to reexamine my opinion of the rule.

I believe that for me at least this is a healthy exercise for me to understand the rules. That probably makes me a rules nerd, and there are a few of us on this site.

That said in the real world that is not the way it works. I do not believe anyone ever got protested for a washer bottle and I don’t think even the nerdiest of us think they should.

Enjoy IT. It is the best ruleset out there and the best racing.

[mbuskuhl]

I agree with what you said but....



It is the best ruleset out there and the best racing.
[/b]

True for some, not true for others. I'm finding more and more the ruleset is not in line with what I want so maybe it's more the IT rules than the interpretation. I'm not asking for a rules change, instead I will make a change.

I didn't chime in on the tranny shift knob debate but would have to say I am not in agreement the rules allow for such proposed mod, however do think such mod should be allowed, but it's not. The 2nd Gen RX7 rear camber adjuster - single or double, is no doubt 100% illegal but everyone has one, even those rules nerds.

As to the best racing... yeah, looks like you guys got it real good in some parts of the country, especially NE and SE but other parts IT is all but non-existent.

So, how about that sound deadening the OP thinks is illegal... No one agrees but him?

[dickita15]

I understand your frustration and if ITE of any other class is where you want to be that’s cool. I am sick of working on origami ship in a bottle tub cars but am hesitant to go to GT because of the lack of competition. Just don’t leave because of these debates that really are not as important to the real world as we nerds would like to believe.

[lateapex911]

Actually, the OP has it nailed. We've all been doing it for years, and we all presumed it was legal, but nobody really read the rules and their true meaning. It appears HE has done his homework.....The inclusion of the word "their" in the sentence clearly leaves out the resonance damping material attached to the chassis of the car.
(A good illustration of the "Thats the way we do it" mentality is that the first bunch of responses completely ignored the crux of his question, and went on to recommend methods to do it!)

Now, it may have been the rules writers intent that it (the resonance damping material) be included back when they wrote that rule, or not. If it was, they worded it poorly, and it will need to be looked at.

We have rules to establish limits and boundries. We must have them, and we need them. In the real world, we must use judgement and reasonableness to live our lives, but, one mans reasonable isn't the same as anothers, and the rulebook serves to draw the line.

Dicks posts are spot on.

[Knestis]

Not so fast there, Jake. I DID read the rules before we started the Pablo build and I came to the decision I posted above (about paint). I wasn't being a smart ass there. IISYCYSAHC.

K

[lateapex911]

But.....factory methods would require you to strip and reapply in the normal course of painting, if you were not able to prep the dampening sheets properly. I can not imagine the factory allowing a bodyshop to remove those sections when repairing a customers car. Obviously, they serve a pruose in the NVH package, and must be repaired properly, like anything else.

IIDSYCYC.

[Gary L]

Not so fast there, Jake. I DID read the rules before we started the Pablo build and I came to the decision I posted above (about paint). I wasn't being a smart ass there. IISYCYSAHC.

K [/b] Hmmm.... I know I've seen unmodified cars with this material that had paint on it of the same color and type as the surrounding floor areas. I would therefore have to conclude that removal of the material was not part of paint prep at the factory. In that case, what would make it part of paint prep for a race car?

And to paraphrase Jake, even if it was originally unpainted, what part of the GCR allows you not to replace it after you've finished painting? :)

[mbuskuhl]

TAR removal is LEGAL.

9.1.3.D.9.f. "Carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms may be removed."

Break it down, remove the other components for a minute... "Carpets and their insulating mechanisms may be removed"

Everyone agree what carpet is? What is "their insulating mechanisms"? The GCR does not define any of these words, so I did here. The answer is below. Look like the stuff you took out?

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product...0002668/c-10101 (http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2002973/p-2002973/N-111+10201+600002668/c-10101)


http://www.ioportracing.com/instructions/e36m3-rollbar.htm
"remove the sound insulation material from the floor to achieve the best fit although this is not always necessary. This tar-like material can be chipped away using a wood chisel."

http://www.autoatlanta.net/action.lasso?-d...ords=10&-search (http://www.autoatlanta.net/action.lasso?-database=AAdatabase&-layout=Items&-response=results.lasso&-operator=eq&partnumber3=WU890100&-maxrecords=10&-search)

Call the stuff what you want but what deadens sound? Insulation. What is the insulation made of? Tar. What's under your cars carpet to insulate? Tar. Insulation is NOT limited to a synthetic fiber like pad.

[lateapex911]

So, Mark, you're calling tar thats attached to the chassis and painted over in many cases, part of the carpet insulation? What do you call the fluffy material under the carpet?

You're stretching, and good for you, but I'm not buying....

[mbuskuhl]

So, Mark, you're calling tar thats attached to the chassis and painted over in many cases, part of the carpet insulation? What do you call the fluffy material under the carpet?

You're stretching, and good for you, but I'm not buying....
[/b]

Yes Jake, but only the tar in the interior of the car on the floorboards. I am not referring to tar on the undercarriage or wheel wells. As I stated "Insulation is NOT limited to a synthetic fiber like pad". Take a look at the JC Whitney link here... http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product...0002668/c-10101 (http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2002973/p-2002973/N-111+10201+600002668/c-10101)

I'm not the only one who says tar is an insulating mechanism and as JC Whitney states "Mount on front and rear floor pans under carpeting, padding, etc." The GCR says... Carpets and their insulating mechanisms may be removed. This tar is a related insulating mechanism.

This isn't much of a stretch. Now the transmission shift debate... that's a stretch.

[eiwoh316]

I'm not the only one who says tar is an insulating mechanism and as JC Whitney states "Mount on front and rear floor pans under carpeting, padding, etc." The GCR says... Carpets and their insulating mechanisms may be removed. This tar is a related insulating mechanism.
[/b]

It may be related, but as an OEM engineering carpet expert, this tar is NOT a part of any carpet system used in a modern car. It IS an insulating mechanism of the car for overall car NVH performance, not the carpet. Carpets are part of the NVH package, the overall car NVH package is not part of the carpet.

This is the where my confusion has come from. Based on the response I have recieved, and what I see as a lack of sound arguments based on my experience, I will not remove the tar sheets until SCCA clarifies the situation. I have asked them to do this, I just hope they rule towards your interpretation, as a lot of cars would be deemed illegal if they go towards mine.

[lateapex911]

This is an interesting situation. You wrote to the ITAC for clarification, and honestly, we can't give it to you, if we follow the bylaws and procedures that we're supposed to. It's really a rules question and those need to go to another body, and they will give you a response on it. There's a fee involved too. (Which sucks, I know, sorry. They charge a fee to keep it under control, I guess.)

Anyway, the ITAC is looking at your letter, and we will decide if the letter brings up a good point or not, (Which is sort of a defacto judgement, I know, LOL)
IF it does, we go to the CRB and ask what the original intent was. Then we go from there.

At least thats the way it looks now.....

[tom91ita]

i am in the legal to remove camp. been there and done it. any and all are free to protest me at great lakes division events next year as well as hopefully the ARRC. #91 ITB.


9.1.3.D.9.f. "Carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms may be removed."[/b]

and to be devil's advocate for the rules nerds, did any of you remove your "Carpets, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, their insulating, attaching" AND ".....operating mechanisms?"

after all, the rules say you can only remove one OR the other, right? they clearly did not intend us to remove both the insulating attaching AND their operating mechanisms, did they?

my take on this is that this is why the other thread regarding a winter rules re-write is essentially doomed. if we can't agree on what the current rules set is, how can we re-write it without rehashing these items.

tom, who is $0.02 poorer now. but would gladly be $10.00 poorer if we could stop by someplace and discuss in a more civilized pub, :birra: