New racer looking for advice on first car

[arpenn]

First let me introduce myself. My name is Aaron and I am a Junior High Shop Teacher and Real Estate Agent in S.W. Missouri. My brother (also a teacher) and myself want to start road racing. It is something both of use have wanted to do all of our lives, just never had the opportunity to do so. We are looking for a race ready car to purchase. I think we have set our sights on ITA. We would like to get some opinions on what type of car is competitive, dependable and economical (if there is such a thing). We have found a Saturn SC2 (very nice car) and a Honda Civic Si that we are interested in, but we don't know which would be the best setup. I realize that there are more Honda's out there and the aftermarket parts and tech support are much greater. I have found very little for the Saturn. My biggest concern about the Saturn is the realiablity of the engine and transmission, compaired to the Honda's. Are there any other cars out there that run up front that we are overlooking. My brother and I are capable of building our own car but we know for the money we would be much better off buying a race ready car. Please give us some advice, and if you know of a good car for sale please let us know.

Thanks,
Aaron

[RacerBill]

First let me introduce myself. My name is Aaron and I am a Junior High Shop Teacher and Real Estate Agent in S.W. Missouri. My brother (also a teacher) and myself want to start road racing. It is something both of use have wanted to do all of our lives, just never had the opportunity to do so. We are looking for a race ready car to purchase. I think we have set our sights on ITA. We would like to get some opinions on what type of car is competitive, dependable and economical (if there is such a thing). We have found a Saturn SC2 (very nice car) and a Honda Civic Si that we are interested in, but we don't know which would be the best setup. I realize that there are more Honda's out there and the aftermarket parts and tech support are much greater. I have found very little for the Saturn. My biggest concern about the Saturn is the realiablity of the engine and transmission, compaired to the Honda's. Are there any other cars out there that run up front that we are overlooking. My brother and I are capable of building our own car but we know for the money we would be much better off buying a race ready car. Please give us some advice, and if you know of a good car for sale please let us know.

Thanks,
Aaron
[/b]

GET THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!

In case you did not get the title, it's 'Go Ahead and Take The Wheel'

Buy a car. Winter and Spring are the best times to look. Check out the classifieds on this forum. Everyone will be happy to give you their opinion on particular cars. Build you own first car should be a last and only chance option (been there, done that). Although, driving a car that your wife swore was ready for Volunteers of America can be pretty satisfying.

Where are you located? Getting to some locals will be very helpful.

Anyway, welcome to the insanity! Have fun.

[joeg]

I would advise the HONDUH over the Saturn.

[SLUF]

We have a local racer here in the St. Louis area running a Saturn (very well!) in ITA. His name is Dana Hullinger. If I can get some contact info I will pass it on. Plus 1 on reading the book on how to get started. Seems you are going in the right direction with asking questions. Don't be wary about asking the stupid stuff too since we all started out that way. I think you will find that most of the participants on this board are more than willing to share some valuable insight and opinions. You did not mention where in SW Missouri you are located but if its near Joplin you may want to take a trip to visit Saferacer's facility on US-71 just south of I-44. Ask for Charlie James and tell him Bud sent you! They handle all manner of safety stuff like suits, helmets, belts..............and Charlie runs a stable of Spec Miatas. Good luck with your research and car selection.
Bud Scott

[mbuskuhl]

Mazda claims to be the most raced manufacturer by amateurs. I believe it and they do a great job of supporting their racers, more so than any other manufacturer in my opinion. Parts are plentiful and reasonable. Consider a Miata, 1st Gen RX7 (although those seem to be slowly going away) or a 2nd Gen RX7. All 3 of these are very popular and well supported. There should be a good selection of these on the used market to buy already built.

[buldogge]

1) You're on the right path by buying instead of building (at least the first time around).

2) You've got decent access to Hallett, HPT/Topeka, MAM, and GIR/St. Louis...Memphis may not be too bad if you are close to cutting through Arkansas.

3)ITA numbers were pretty good last season...but...I think you guys should join us in ITS (we need some fresh faces/blood)...although I am obviously biased.

Either way...We look forward to seeing more new racers in '08!!!

Good luck...

[arpenn]

Thanks guys for all the advice, I really do appreciate it (keep it coming, we need all the help we can get)!! I live just outside of Springfield, MO which is about 45 min. north of Branson, MO. We are within a few hours of all the tracks mentioned. I think our plan at this point is to first find a car. Then we plan on running some of the High Speed Touring open sessions at Hallett, then maybe running the COMMA series also at Hallett. Once we have some experience then we will begin the process of getting our SCCA license and then our NASA license. I have heard of the book and will have to try and find a copy. I have considered the Mazda cars, but we don't know anything about rotary engines. I know they are popular and competitive, the engines just scare me. Between myself, my father and my uncle we have a lot of engine building experience, but none of us have ever touched a rotary engine.

Thanks again for the responses!
Aaron

[gran racing]

Welcome to the fun and insanity Aaron!

Jeff Lawton who posts here regularly is running a Saturn and is doing quite well with it. Like you said, one downside is the lack of off-the-shelf parts and I would imagine there are not a ton in the junk yard for body pannels, ect. My Prelude suffers from this too, and it often becomes a challenge sourcing various items making things a bit more challenging. Then again, if that Saturn is well-built and the price is right...

An ITA Miata could be a good option too. At the same time, you can't go wrong too wrong with one of the Honda's. It sounds like your short term goals are simply to get out on the track, gain experience, and have fun. Have you guys given any thought to some of your longer term goals? Will it be a goal to become a front runner or would you be o.k. with racing somewhere in the middle of the pack? Approximately what is your budget for the car?

Since you're a shop teacher (and I realize there are several different areas this could include), is there any way to get your school to buy into a school racing program? Just curious your school and the students would have interest on helping to maintain a cool racecar.



Thanks for the book plug Bill. :happy204:

[tom91ita]

you will not be disappointed with a honda.

not my cars but just an idea of pricing:

http://waterfordhills.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=466

http://waterfordhills.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=404

[ddewhurst]

***I know they are popular and competitive, the engines just scare me. Between myself, my father and my uncle we have a lot of engine building experience, but none of us have ever touched a rotary engine.***

Aaron, that's the point with a rotary motor. If you don't over heat them you don't need to touch them. :023:

[tom91ita]

a timely thread regarding choices:

http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/forums/t...osts=51&start=1 (http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=5796&posts=51&start=1)

it is also a website that many from here frequent as well.

[spnkzss]

I'm a big proponent of going Honda. My only suggestion is that if you have NO racing experience, I would be hesitant about driving a CRX as your first race car. I can't tell you how many people I have known that have either gotten out of it all together or have come close to getting out of it because they can't afford to keep fixing it when they wreck it. They are fast cars, but as some people have put it, you have to "wreck" the car every corner to make it fast. They are twitchy cars that get very tale happy quickly. They are one of 3 ITA cars to have in my opinion, but not as a first car. Not unless you detune it or find someone to detune (tighten) it up for you. One person I know wrecked one 4 times in 3 weekends.

TIFWIW. Most CRX guys should be able to tell you the same thing.

[Z3_GoCar]

Thanks guys for all the advice, I really do appreciate it (keep it coming, we need all the help we can get)!! I live just outside of Springfield, MO which is about 45 min. north of Branson, MO. We are within a few hours of all the tracks mentioned. I think our plan at this point is to first find a car. Then we plan on running some of the High Speed Touring open sessions at Hallett, then maybe running the COMMA series also at Hallett. Once we have some experience then we will begin the process of getting our SCCA license and then our NASA license. I have heard of the book and will have to try and find a copy. I have considered the Mazda cars, but we don't know anything about rotary engines. I know they are popular and competitive, the engines just scare me. Between myself, my father and my uncle we have a lot of engine building experience, but none of us have ever touched a rotary engine.

Thanks again for the responses!
Aaron
[/b]

My brother lives in Branson and used to teach band there, he's now teaching in Marionville.

Anyway, I just have to say this (maybe because I'm biased) but all the cars you're talking about are driven by the wrong end. Also the Miata is a traditional four cylinder piston engine. The one to look for are the NA ( first generation) series with the 1.8l motor that's the '94-'97 model years. That's what I'd get to run ITA in, if I were to replace the Z3 with.

James

[shwah]

Actually, IMO at lower power levels fwd is an advantage. When momentum is everything, I will take the chassis that allows me to floor it as soon as possible on corner entry. The crossover point where fwd fails to be an advantage is probably in the upper ITA/ lower ITS power level.

But as noted, just my opinion.

[BrandonP]

Well a Miata was my first choice (I am the brother btw :eclipsee_steering: ) but they are just out of our price range from the ITA/ITB ones I have seen. I would prefer a rear wheel drive car, but I will run anything.

[dj10]

Thanks guys for all the advice, I really do appreciate it (keep it coming, we need all the help we can get)!! I live just outside of Springfield, MO which is about 45 min. north of Branson, MO. We are within a few hours of all the tracks mentioned. I think our plan at this point is to first find a car. Then we plan on running some of the High Speed Touring open sessions at Hallett, then maybe running the COMMA series also at Hallett. Once we have some experience then we will begin the process of getting our SCCA license and then our NASA license. I have heard of the book and will have to try and find a copy. I have considered the Mazda cars, but we don't know anything about rotary engines. I know they are popular and competitive, the engines just scare me. Between myself, my father and my uncle we have a lot of engine building experience, but none of us have ever touched a rotary engine.

Thanks again for the responses!
Aaron [/b]



Watch what wins the BIG races and then buy one of them and learn how to drive.

[tom91ita]

i am not sure i agree with the comments about the crx being that tail happy. a lot of it is set up, etc.

i have been driving them for quite a while and have not had that big of an issue.

but i will also say, whatever you get, do some shake-downs at an autocross first. have that first "oh no" moment in a more controlled environment.

do this at 45 mph instead of 95:

http://www.i64x.com/pics/autox/autox_07.jpg

well, maybe never mind on them not being that tail happy.

[spnkzss]

Let me rephrase from tail happy. They are not very forgiving. :) Which is fine and fast, just rough on a rookie driver. Now if you've come from some other form of racing you may be able to get a grasp on it fast.

[Speed Raycer]

Dont rule out some of the BMW's & the 240sx's if you're dead set on RWD. The 1st Gen RX7's are a decent choice in MiDiv as we've got IT7 available (just had a 5 car class at GIR last weekend). Unfortunately, 2 of the fastest cars were sold out of region in the last year. IIRC, IT7 driver Scott Gobel is from Springfield.

If you do go rotary, make sure you pop for a good motor & keep it cool

Cars pop up for sale every once in a while on Midiv.org, solo2.org I'm sure the Ozark Mt Region has a site as well.

Welcome to the madness! See you at some MiDiv tracks next year! (Yellow/Black ITA Neon w/ Izzy's stickers all over it ;) )

[loperdw]

I’ve been racing since May 2006, still a newbie I guess, and so I remember what you are going through. My thoughts…

Can’t say it enough, get the book. It will either scare you off completely, or make you sink your teeth in deeper.

Find a mentor and crew for them. Get out to the track and turn a wrench for someone. There is a bunch of stuff (tricks, myths, and ways to make your life easier at the track) that I needed to learn and I’m glad I found someone that had done if before. They don’t have to be a champion, just someone that you think you can learn from. I got really lucky in that department.

Buy a built car that has a good history. I bought my car after the guy who built it won the ARRC in 2005 with it. Idea being I know the car is fast, now I just have to work on me getting it to be fast, i.e. learn how to race. Doesn’t mean I don’t chase gremlins, just means I can’t blame the car for being slow. I also based my decision on how many of the same car I could find in the local junk yards. You’re going to needs parts…

If you can, run DE’s, as much as you can. Find out if there are any schools that run the local tracks and get track time under safe conditions. When I drove for my Novice SCCA school I’d already run the track at least 5 weekends prior to the school. As such I wasn’t spending valuable brain function on learning the track.

I always use good tires and brake pads. My butt isn’t trained well enough yet to know when things are going south 100% of the time. I’m getting better at it, but I still get surprised from time to time.

Since you and your brother are doing this together, I’d suggest the Miata (please other Honda owners don’t throw things at me as I have a good reason for this suggestion). Dual classed. One of you can run ITA while the other runs SM. Everyone gets to enjoy themselves.

Lastly, buy an EZ-up. Don’t waste cash on the crap pop-ups canopies.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll push the Miata. $10K buys you a decent one and you will be able to sell it for $9500. Pay now, or pay later...

RWD, 'beginner power', forgiving, great brakes, great support...it's all there. The best thing is that it will make you a better racer. You will always be 'in' a race so you will learn racecraft. You have to focus on momentum and you will pay dearly when you make a mistake. You also have a platform to convert to ITA or ITS should you desire to do so.

....and depending on where you are, you will have a multitude of run groups to double up if you are sharing the car.

[arpenn]

First let me thank everyone that has given input on our questions. Like I said before we need all the help we can get to shorten the learning curve. We have ordered the book should be here next week. We have also ruled out the Saturn. We like the idea of the Miata's but simply can't spend that much right now, we still have to buy safety gear, a trailer, probably tires for the car we buy, etc. We are looking at a Honda civic right now. After weighing the options we feel the Honda is the way to go for our first car. Lots of support and easy to get parts for. This too should help shorten our learning curve. Please keep the advice coming!!!

AP

[anrkii]

Small world.

Im in springfield, too, strafford, actually.
Im partial to the crx myself, I run a 1st gen in B. The first gen isnt as tail happy as the later crxs, also cheaper to run.

I am also glad I started out in B instead of A, the prep level and $$$ needed to be competitive in A is a lot higher. I can get a lot further along in B on my budget.

Also, if you do decide to build a car, the tech inspector for our region lives only ten minutes from springfield, so getting teched before your first race will be plenty convenient, especially if it takes a few tries, as was the case for me.

[SATURNRACER]

SAFETY SAFETYSAFETY!
Don't skimp on safety! A Hans device is one of the best investments I have ever made!
Get a good firesuit and helmet I know this is first grade but you would be surprised at what some people have out there.
O.B.

[NutDriverRighty]

I have no affiliation with them, but for budget safety equipment, I like the G-Force stuff. You can get a suit that will pass current specs for less than $250. You can get an SA2005 helmet for about the same. Shoes cost about $60, gloves for about $40.
Have to ditto a Head-and-neck restraint. The Isaac is well liked by some, I have a HANS, some use the G-force SRS-1, some like the R3, some the Hutchens. If you're going to race in hot climate, strongly consider a Cool Suit or Cool Shirt system. Could be the best $400 you've ever spent.

Scott

[camop]

For your first race car:

Spec Miata. Great prices on good used cars.

You can run SM and then your brother can run ITA. Track time, double the fun.

You will have other guys to race with - maybe not at the front, but you probably won't be at the front for a while anyway.

Very reliable and cheap to repair.

Strong and freindly community.

You can convert to a full on ITA car when you feel the need to go faster.

My 2 cents. . .

Neal Norton

[Chris Wire]

Please keep the advice coming!!!
[/b]

1. Any Honda - for all the reasons you mentioned.
2. Miata - RWD, blast to drive, mega-support, lots of options - be careful on what you buy though, due to market forces, lots of guys with $6000 cars think their worth $15k. They're not.
3. RX7 (1st gen) - cheap buy-in, but support is waning due to same market forces favoring Miati.

Darkhorse - Neon....wouldn't have listed that one before last weekend, but I raced one around Sebring and can say it with conviction. Easy to drive, good power, decent pricing on already built cars. Put a VERY entry-level car 9th on grid out of 25 in class with old tires and no setup on the car (I was just out to keep my license). No corner weight, no alignment, oil change, brake bleed, 1 tire rotation. That was it.

Darkerhorse - MR2 - good pricing on built cars, Toyota-reliability, hi-revving 16v exhaust note, easy on tires and brakes; I'd guess they lack the support level of the others listed but don't know fersure.

[SATURNRACER]

Chris,
ya should have stopped by and said hi!
We were battling brake issues all weekend!!!! NO pedal going into 17 EEEEEEEEEEKKKK!!!
We still had a decent weekend qualified 4th .....whats up with Ronie running a 2:35 man that guy is fast!
Next Time!
O.B.

[dj10]

Deffinately do a Mazda so some kind and save money from Mazda Motorsports, I hear they get 40% off. Just ask any BMW driver how much we save from BMW Motorsports!

[JeffYoung]

Or TriumphWorld!

You can't go wrong with a BUILT Miata as your first car. Won't break, and you can selli t in a few years for nearly what you paid for it. Then you can build something you are really interested in.

One competing viewpoint, not that this changes teh above, but I find Miatas boring to drive. No drama. Eerytrhing works. No power.

[Cobrar05]

I will throw my two cents in as I had never been on the race track with other cars until February.

The easy way to go is small bore, Miata-Honda. Forgiving. Lots of cars to race with. The other side of that is that I know a number of guys with as much money in their Miata as I have in my Cobra R Mustang that has a professional podium(IMSA GS) at Daytona on its resume.

A Mustang is more advanced, there is no question. It is less forgiving and bites harder. But it goes faster and there is power and the cost in the end is not what you think it might be compared to a competitive Miata.

My suggested expenses. Buy a car that has been raced competitively. Then you know that the car is capable when you catch up with it. I have a friend that is convinced his slow lap times are on the car and not his driving.

My car has more cage than it needs. That is good.
OPM driving suits, Sparco gloves, Piloti boots, Bell Helmets(Simpson still on my head), racetech seats and belts. Get a Traqmate and chasecam combo. You will learn more than you can imagine from that stuff.
Cool Shirt and Mirror visor. I ran the cool shirt at Road Atlanta when it was 105 degrees and was comfortable. The mirror visor is the darkest and also helps keep you cool. Amber visor when cloudy.

[camop]

Watch out for the amber visor. . .

I found that a yellow flag and a white flag look the same with my amber visor. I have retired that visor and use clear or smoke.

Regards,

Neal Norton

[arpenn]

Thanks guy's for all of the advice. We really appreciate it. We have considered the Miata's for all the reasons mentioned, but we have yet to find one in our price range ($5,000 or less). The buget got cut some because my brother is going to have a baby in Feb. so he decided he better wait on the race car for now. Now it is up to me, my dad said he would help some, but that cut the budget for the car some. We have found a Honda we are trying to buy, race proven and turn key. Just a little above our budget. We still have to buy a trailer and safety equipment which adds up! I hope we can find something. My brother may buy in after the baby comes and he can save up some more money. If anyone knows of a good car for less than $5,000 let me know! I am also looking for a open car trailer, preferably with a steel deck. I did buy the book "Go Ahead Take the Wheel" very good book, pointed out some things that I hadn't thought about. I would definately recommend the book for anyone like me trying to get into road racing. Keep the advice coming guy's, I know it is helping me and I am sure it is helping others that are considering this as well.

[gsbaker]

...The budget got cut some because my brother is going to have a baby...[/b]
If your brother is going to have a baby, he won't be lacking for money after the talk show circuit and book sales. :lol:

[arpenn]

:happy204: Just had to be a Wise Guy didn't you!!

[Knestis]

Your $5000 budget puts you in range of any number of reasonable pre-built ITB MkII Golfs and ITB/ITC Honda Civics. I'd stay away from the MkI GTI and older ITC Rabbits and Sciroccos (and older Hondas for that matter) - they're just getting scarce/old enough that parts are becoming a problem.

Any of these options are easy on hardware, parts are in good supply, and most importantly there's a good knowledge base built up around them. Remember that in order to actually spend $5K to get a race car on track, you're probably looking at something with a sale price of $4K. You'll be amazed how quickly the difference gets sucked up.

K

[pigout]

Don't be afraid of a good used honda... all the kids love em ..they made a blue million of them ... when inspecting a potential purchase take a good look at the rear subframe...check for cracks.

they are an easy car to maintain... fun to drive ... people have a tendancy to read all the "how to drive fast" books... and try to apply all thet fancy book learnin' to a front drive car and it doesn't always work out so well.

good luck and have a great time.

[Chris Wire]

Chris,
ya should have stopped by and said hi!
We were battling brake issues all weekend!!!! NO pedal going into 17 EEEEEEEEEEKKKK!!!
We still had a decent weekend qualified 4th .....whats up with Ronie running a 2:35 man that guy is fast!
Next Time!
O.B.
[/b]

Sorry OB, I didn't do a very good job of making the rounds that weekend. I didn't even stay for race 2 once I got thru race 1. I guess I had the "just get it over with" mindset.

I'll be debuting the RX7 this year by Daytona if not sooner. I don't think I'll be doing the Feb Sebring race, but I'll be looking into the "Petit Petit". I'll try to look you guys up next time.

Ronie's got that Acura off the charts. Funny how we think that's fast when a certain BMW or two were running 34s a few years back. I'll live with Paul's times, the others.....not so much.

Be good!

[wbp]

The ITC Honda Civic, 1986, in the classifieds here now looks to be a great starter car. $3500. I know nothing about this car, but I raced one just like it for so little money that Andy B. couldn't believe me. Very low maintenance, they go a long way on tires, reliable.

[EdForrest]

There are lots of ways to do this with many opinions. I have built them from scratch and purchased them and developed the car. At the end of the day you will spend the same amount. What you have to consider is your initial invenstment money and then what funds you will have to complete or develop the car. The are cars out there for reasonable costs...say $2500-3000. You can be pretty sure that someone did something to the car...and these cars CAN provide you a great platform to become competitive. The most important thing to remember is that you -most likely- will not win a race or event the first or second time out. So...be prepared to have fun just getting out there. FAST will happen...but your first step is buying the car. Honda-Saturn-Mazda...just buy the most you can for what you have to spend...and be ready to invest more time and money into it. That is what "the book" teaches...and experience will also add that this sport is all about a budget of time and money and skills.

[x1/9racer]

As an owner of an ITC Fiat X1/9, the concept of being able to race reliably for periods of longer than 15 minutes or so with nothing breaking, leaking out, falling off, or catching on fire is alien to me and against everything I stand for or belive in. That being said, save your sanity, get a Honda.

[mlytle]

As an owner of an ITC Fiat X1/9, the concept of being able to race reliably for periods of longer than 15 minutes or so with nothing breaking, leaking out, falling off, or catching on fire is alien to me and against everything I stand for or belive in. That being said, save your sanity, get a Honda.
[/b]
:D
are x1/9's really that bad to race? i used to have a '79 as a street car. loved it and wondered how it would do as a race car. come to think of it, i did spend a bunch of time "maintaining" it....;)

[thedemoguy]

[quote]save your sanity, get a Honda.[quote]

Get a VW and have reliability and a winning car... :eclipsee_steering:

I'm not trying to pop your bobble but a new driver would be better off running in a slower class and work your way up the ladder, it's always better to start at the bottom and work your way up, that way you can concentrate on your driving skills and race craft,..the fact that ITC is a lot cheaper to run then ITA is a big consideration.

If your buy in budget is $5000 your not going to be competitive in ITA, I would suggest ITC, Tires will last a lot longer, a good VW engine will last 2 or 3 years before needing freshened up, and that will only cost about $500.

You need to think about what your racing budget will be for the year,...tires, fuel, transport, entry fees.
Calculate track time verses cost and you'll get a heck of a lot more bang for your buck with the slower class and track time is every thing, the more your on track the better you'll be no matter what class you choose.


And I just happen to know of a nice ITC VW Rabbit for sale...lol
Someone posted that parts are hard to get for a older VW,... Thats not true, you can buy every part for my 82 Rabbit at Euclid foreign motors in Cleveland Ohio, and the bone yards are full of parts like finders and doors, front end parts every thing you would need for a very long time to come,..if the parts ran out there look on the Internet and you'll find an endless supply of re-popes, cheap...

For the money of 2 race weekends with a rental, you can own a very nice VW ITC car.

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...showtopic=12647 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12647)

I also have a nice steel deck open trailer I can sell,...Car, Trailer and some spare parts,...Christmas SALE $5500

[TurboCGT]

The slower classes do make a fair bit more sense when your getting started from a financial standpoint. I have a turn key log booked ITB Audi Coupe GT for sale for a good price on this site if your interested. Excuse the shameless plug if it is out of line in the general forum.

[thedemoguy]

Thats funny, I didn't feel shameless... :unsure:


Now this is Shameless:
Scott Lane the owner of "Nelson Ledges Road Course" http://www.nelsonledges.com/default.aspx

And
Roland, you know him as Hahn63, the driving force behind the "Kumho Endurance Championship Series" http://www.kumhoecs.com/

These men will attest to the fact that ,

Csaba Bujdoso of "Checkered Motorsports" is one of the best VW builders and set-up man in the country, the cars he built hold track records and win championships on a regular basis, and he set this car up for me last winter, we only ran 2 races with it but it finished 2nd in both of them.

The car is very well sorted and ready to race, I can give you a day of couching "Csaba" and help you get to know the car at Nelson Ledges.

Now that's Shameless.

PS
I won the NEOhio championship with a Checkered Motorsports VW in my first year racing SCCA and 3rd in a local series and only because I mist some races, Csaba cars are fast.

[AjG]

I won the NEOhio championship with a Checkered Motorsports VW in my first year racing SCCA and 3rd in a local series and only because I mist some races, Csaba cars are fast.[/b]

hey, this shamelessness stuff really suits you Bill... I'd say you're a natural! :D

Unfortunately, I’d have to agree that the VW(or Honda) in ITC as a great way to go…and Csaba does seem to have a certain, um… knack lets call it, for fast VW’s. Sounds like a good deal. I bet you could talk him down to 4000 for the whole package though. :birra:
BTW Bill, how much do you want for just the trailer? I assume the VW germs will wash off of it.

[thedemoguy]

Well the trailer is all steel, so if your pinto was to "Burst into Flames" for no go reason it would still be ok...lol

I don't know if you've seen the trailer but it's really nice, it has a winch on the front and hide away ramps that slid into the bottom, back of it and the finders hing up or will come right off if you like so you can get in and out of the car on the trailer.

I would like to sell the trailer and car together and for $5500 thats a great deal...I just had Csaba redo all the suspension on the car and a lot of other stuff,...I have a lot more in the car then what I'm asking, but I'm looking to get a Miata or Spec Ford Racer...

Don't worry, I'll still be racing the ITB Jetta, but it would be nice to race a National class,...I know I can beat all those guys... :eclipsee_steering:


[attachmentid=1246]

[arpenn]

What a great racing site. I can't believe all the responses I have gotten on here, you guy's are great! Other sites I have posted on I will get one or two responses and that's it. I really appreciate the responses. I understand what everyone is saying about ITC being a good place to start, but my concern is that I will quickly "out grow" the car and want something faster. I will be running at Hallett the most. The lap times between ITA and ITC at Hallett is 12-14 seconds! There is not that much of a price difference between an ITC and ITA car from what I have seen, unless you go with an integra or miata. I think I can still learn to drive in a ITA car, and be able to race the car for many years without wanting to move up. I have also heard that the car count is much higher in ITA. The honda I am looking at is a proven winner so that will give me something to shoot for, If I can just get him to come down on his price some! I know that an ITA car will be a little harder on tires, but other than that I can't see a whole lot of difference. I respect everyone running ITC, I am affraid that if I buy a ITC car run it for a year or two and then I will have the hassell of selling it and then buying a ITA car. Am I way out of line here in my thinking? Go ahead and flame away!

Thanks again,
Aaron

[gran racing]

If you've found a good ITA car and it's priced reasonably, then buy it. Of course it won't be a good as ITB, but ITA isn't such a bad class. :lol: Don't worry about the moving "up" with whichever car / class you decide on. Even in my low hp ITB car, I do a good job of making myself nervous and have plenty of room for improvement. Car counts should play into your decision. I personally don't think it is much fun racing against only one or two other cars. If ITC is very popular, that that could be great. If ITA is popular, maybe you should start there.

[spnkzss]

What a great racing site. I can't believe all the responses I have gotten on here, you guy's are great! Other sites I have posted on I will get one or two responses and that's it. I really appreciate the responses. I understand what everyone is saying about ITC being a good place to start, but my concern is that I will quickly "out grow" the car and want something faster. I will be running at Hallett the most and the lap times between ITA and ITC is 12-14 seconds! There is not that much of a price difference between an ITC and ITA car from what I have seen, unless you go with an integra or miata. I think I can still learn to drive in a ITA car and be able to race the car for many years without wanting to move up. I have also heard that the car count is much higher in ITA. The car honda I am looking at is a proven winner so that will give me something to shoot for! I know that an ITA car will be a little harder on tires, but other than that I can't see a whole lot of difference. I respect everyone running ITC, I just don't want to buy an ITC car run it for a year or two and then have the hassell of selling it and then buying a ITA car. Am I way out of line here in my thinking? Go ahead and flame away!

Thanks again,
Aaron
[/b]


The reason I am leaving C is due to lack of numbers. I want competition, not so much speed. You would be surpirsed how little "speed" is a factor in how much fun you are having. If it was that big of a deal we would all be racing something with more than 100hp.

As far as "race proven", the only word of warning I can give is, it was race proven with that owner with his setup, which he may not leave the exact same setup. Just food for thought.

I have always said ITC is a good place to start. My tune is starting to shift toward ITB would be a good place to start ;)

[arpenn]

The numbers in ITC just don't seem to be as large. I agree that it’s not all about speed but the competition. If the numbers are small the competition will be limited. There are a lot of ITC cars for sale also, but that doesn't mean much. I have read some posts from ITC owners like spnkzss, stating they are changing classes because of the low car counts in ITC.

I also understand that just because the previous owner ran well doesn't mean that I will, but what it does show is that the car is capable.

[thedemoguy]

Aaron

Welcome to the SCCA,... most of the responses are good ones and my ITC opinion is just that an opinion.

I'm new to the SCCA,...just this year, but I'm not new to racing, stock cars in my younger days and karts with my son for the past 6 or 7 years and at the national level for the past 3,...
Racing and racers are all the same no matter where you go,... but I have to say that the SCCA is the most relaxing atmosphere I've had the pleasure to be a part of, we nit-pick on the web about thing from time to time but at the track it's a different story, every one helps each other out no screaming and yelling, just good old fashion racing.

And I'll bet the guys in ITC are having as much fun as the guys in the GT1 cars...but for a lot less money...lol

So welcome and what ever you get ITC/ITA it doesn't matter, just take it slow and safe at first and have fun.
Your about to have the time of your life.

[arpenn]

Aaron

Welcome to the SCCA,... most of the responses are good ones and my ITC opinion is just that an opinion.

I'm new to the SCCA,...just this year, but I'm not new to racing, stock cars in my younger days and karts with my son for the past 6 or 7 years and at the national level for the past 3,...
Racing and racers are all the same no matter where you go,... but I have to say that the SCCA is the most relaxing atmosphere I've had the pleasure to be a part of, we nit-pick on the web about thing from time to time but at the track it's a different story, every one helps each other out no screaming and yelling, just good old fashion racing.

And I'll bet the guys in ITC are having as much fun as the guys in the GT1 cars...but for a lot less money...lol

So welcome and what ever you get ITC/ITA it doesn't matter, just take it slow and safe at first and have fun.
Your about to have the time of your life.
[/b]

I agree that the guy's in ITC have just as much fun as everyone else and I realize that it is probably the cheapest class. I am not bashing ITC at all, I have a great deal of respect for everyone including ITC. I am new to this whole thing and don't claim to know anything. If I offended anyone I truly apologize! I am just trying to figure out what the best route is for me. I agree that ITC is probably the best place to start and learn. I maybe stupid to start in ITA. Maybe I should be looking at ITC or ITB instead. The only thing that really concerns me is the car count in ITC. I will have to check into it some more. And I hope I am in for the time of my life!

[TurboCGT]

I would look at the number of ITC entries in your area last season through results before deciding on the class. I know there are areas where numbers are healthy... but it would be worth making sure you are in one. As for ITB vs. ITA. I would say either will be a great time, going faster costs a bit more in general from what I have seen. I would base your decision on what kind of deals you can find on cars, and how competitive they car your looking at can be in the class. I would rather be in a make and model that can be a front runner in ITB then in a mid to back pack car in ITA or ITS... especially since as a novice I personally am a mid to back of the pack driver! Anyway, hope the search goes well and when you boil it all down you'll have a blast however you get on track.

[arpenn]

I checked the car counts in IT Tour for the Widwest division for 2007. The count came from the final points standings posted on the Midiv website. Here is what I found.

ITA - 31 drivers that raced
ITB - 14 drivers that raced
ITC - 5 drivers that raced

[shwah]

If you have any plans to come North to Cen Div - here are similar numbers from our series (I only say this because I have been down to Mid Div a few times, and it is doable.

# of Drivers that raced
ITA = 21
ITB = 13
ITC = 1

# of Drivers that ran at least 4 events (minimum required starts to compete for season points)
ITA = 4
ITB = 6

EDIT - did a quick calculation of average starters per event, since that is what we are really looking for:
ITA = 6.875
ITB = 6

[arpenn]

See Below

[arpenn]

I looked up the numbers again.

# of drivers that ran at least 4 events
ITA - 3
ITB - 0
ITC - 1

Average starters per event
ITA - Low 5 High 8 Avg. 6.4
ITB - Low 0 High 7 Avg. 2.6 , actually 2.0 if you take out the second Hallet race were they had 7 enter.
ITC - Low 0 High 2 Avg. 1.3

[arpenn]

Well my brother, dad and I decided on ITA, and I got a car bought and its at home in my garage now!!! :026: At the last minute my brother decided he want to be part owner in the car. Its a 1990 Honda Civic Si. I will get some pictures posted soon. We will be making some changes to the car pretty soon. We plan to do a couple of Autox and a couple of trackdays before we start racing. I am sure we will have lots of questions for you guy's. Thanks for all the help this far!

Aaron

[arpenn]

Here are some pictures. We took the headlights out so we could remove the red duct tape that had been on them for years and didn't look to good. My brother is going to recover them with new vinyl. We will also be making some changes to the cage. We are going to replace the front down tube and run them through the dash, add nascar style door bars, run a bar inside the dash from side to side and do some other reinforcing to make the cage safer. We are also going to install urethane bushings, an oil cooler, and paint the car inside and out. It's going to be fun. I will try to post pictures of our progress.

[arpenn]

Here are a few more pictures. The last one is the paint job we are going to put on the car.

[lateapex911]

Nice Steering wheel!