1999 Steering rack question? SM convert to ITS

[gpeluso]

Doing research on converting to ITS. I understand the difference on exhuast(exiting the rear), but I don't know what to do when it comes to the steering rack. My pump was just removed and a hose was added to have the fluid go back and forth(de-powered), but as I understand it this is not legal. Can anyone help or is this OK in IT?

[johnny yanez]

as the rules go,, you have remove the power steering rack and install a non power steering rack,

[JLawton]

as the rules go,, you have remove the power steering rack and install a non power steering rack,
[/b]



...........only if the car came with a non power steering rack option from the factory.........right?

[Knestis]

Only if a car on the spec line in question came without PS. And then, it has to be updated/backdated as an entire "assembly."

K

[gpeluso]

DID THE 1999 COME WITHOUT POWER STEERING? IF IT DID NOT IS IT OK TO DO WHAT I DID? I AM CONFUSED BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN MANY ITS RX7'S WITH THE POWER RACK JUST DE-POWERED....MUST NOT BE LEGAL ON THOSE GUYS CARS.

[Greg Amy]

>>> DID THE 1999 COME WITHOUT POWER STEERING?

I DON'T KNOW!!! Oh, uh, sorry...um, I don't know; you'll need to find that out.

>>> IF IT DID NOT IS IT OK TO DO WHAT I DID?

If the car never came without power steering, you *must* run a fully-functioning power steering system in Improved Touring.

>>> I HAVE SEEN MANY ITS RX7'S WITH THE POWER RACK JUST DE-POWERED....MUST NOT BE LEGAL ON THOSE GUYS CARS.

See above...

[tnord]

i'm pretty sure the 99 Club Sport edition of which they only made 50 or so didn't have PS, so just get a manual rack and you'll be fine.

should be as easy as calling mazda motorsports and asking, "you guys have a manual rack for a 99 miata right? yeah, i need one of those."

[joeracerx95]

i'm pretty sure the 99 Club Sport edition of which they only made 50 or so didn't have PS, so just get a manual rack and you'll be fine.

should be as easy as calling mazda motorsports and asking, "you guys have a manual rack for a 99 miata right? yeah, i need one of those."
[/b]

Well yeah, it's easy up to that point. And then they're going to tell you how much it costs! :o

[Andy Bettencourt]

There is a manual rack for the 1999 and it's about $500 complete from Mazdacomp brand new.\ from what I can see on their website.

[Eagle7]

I AM CONFUSED BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN MANY ITS RX7'S WITH THE POWER RACK JUST DE-POWERED....MUST NOT BE LEGAL ON THOSE GUYS CARS. [/b] Correct. Either a fully functional PS system or a manual rack.

[gpeluso]

Andy,
Thank you for the info......guess other people here get pissy if you are just tying to get answers the lazy way (ASKING QUESTIONS ON A FORUM!) Hmm . I was hoping for someone who races an ITS miata to chime in,but I guess most are staying in SM. Thanks

[Greg Amy]

Andy...I was hoping for someone who races an ITS miata to chime in...[/b]
"Shave and a haircut, two bits!"

Buh-doom, bash!



(Inside joke; this'll make sense later, trust me...)

[Knestis]

Andy,
Thank you for the info......guess other people here get pissy if you are just tying to get answers the lazy way (ASKING QUESTIONS ON A FORUM!) Hmm . I was hoping for someone who races an ITS miata to chime in,but I guess most are staying in SM. Thanks
[/b]

The real problem is that you might get a popular-but-illegal answer, perpetuating the myth that something is "okay" - like de-powering RX7 steering systems.

However, the simple fact that A PART IS AVAILABLE does not make it legal. That's not a good test. The question is, did any US-model (whatevers) come with it? I think "50" is kind of hinky* but if a regular someone could order from a dealer and get a '99 Miata with manual rack #233 433 54343, then that part is AOK.

K

* Somewhat outside of what the original intent.

[Greg Amy]

...did any US-model (whatevers) come with it? I think "50" is kind of hinky* but if a regular someone could order from a dealer...[/b]
...and this was a known property and the additional 3-5 horsepower was considered by the ITAC/CRB when the classification weight was set on the car (versus others in the class not having that opportunity). It would really suck to have such a light car get a significant weight break simply 'cause Mazda shipped out 50 cars without power steering and everybody else had it as standard.

Nah, not a conspiracy. One is chance, twice is coincidence, three times a charm...

[tnord]

The question is, did any US-model (whatevers) come with it? I think "50" is kind of hinky* but if a regular someone could order from a dealer and get a '99 Miata with manual rack #233 433 54343, then that part is AOK.
[/b]

iirc....yes and no.

the club sport model was printed as a trim level in the product brochure, but i think you had to have a competition liscense for them to sell you one.

[Greg Amy]

...i think you had to have a competition liscense for them to sell you one.[/b]
Things that make you go "hmmmm"...If true, I suggest the manual rack is not legal for ITS. - GA

[RacerBowie]

Things that make you go "hmmmm"...If true, I suggest the manual rack is not legal for ITS. - GA
[/b]

You could buy them for autocross too, so no license was required.

You DID however have to order them from MazdaComp, so you had to be a MazdaComp member. But anyone can become a member, so I don't know if that makes any difference.

[Greg Amy]

I don't know the details, but think of it this way:

Nissan Corp offered a limited-edition NX2000, of which only 50 were made. Mostly it was trim items (and other items which are legal within IT rules to modify/remove), but there were some performance improvements, such as removal of the power steering (which adds something like 3-5 ponies to the "standard" NX2000 due to lowering of parasitic drag).

You couldn't walk into a dealership and buy one of these 50 NX2000 Club Sports; you had to sign up for Nissan's Grassroots Motorsports program, and the car had to be ordered through them.

How many of you say, "yup, that Club Sport manual rack should be allowed on the Improved Touring A Nissan NX2000"?

As I said, I don't know the details on this particular model, but based on what's been written in this topic to date it sure seems like a slam-dunk decision to me...

[Knestis]

A thousand years ago - and remembering the showroom stock roots of IT - there was language in the rules about "base model" or something like that. There was language about "dealer installed options" and "standard equipment" or some such. The intent, based on prevailing SS thinking and then-current issues about "special" or "limited edition" models on that category, was clearly to avoid this kind of thing.

How about this - I talk my local dealer into offering a Flow VW Motorsports Edition new Rabbit, with a close ratio 'box and huge rotors. He's a fan and gets them built (a la Roush or whoever), and sells 50 of them. All those trick parts are now IT-legal, right? All I have to do is request that the dimensions and ratios get listed in the ITCS.

K

EDIT - and yes, I know the new Rabbit isn't age-eligible yet. I'm planning ahead for the 2012 ARRC.

[tnord]

that's a different deal to get a single local dealer to offer their own trim level.

the club sport was in the print media offered as model, just like the LS and SE. everyone who took home a brochure knew it was available.

my BFF daniels already tried what you are talking about with the MX5 in SSB this year with new suspension being available through MER, which SURPRISE!, is an outfit he is closely affiliated with. SCCA denied it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

...and this was a known property and the additional 3-5 horsepower was considered by the ITAC/CRB when the classification weight was set on the car (versus others in the class not having that opportunity). It would really suck to have such a light car get a significant weight break simply 'cause Mazda shipped out 50 cars without power steering and everybody else had it as standard.

Nah, not a conspiracy. One is chance, twice is coincidence, three times a charm... [/b]

Are you freaking serious? Oh boy.

The 99's base models came without PS. PS was available in - coincidently - the 'power steering package'. That package was standard on any car that came through with an automatic. The Touring package and teh PEP (popular equipment package) came with PS as well. The 'Sports' package does not list PS as standard and does not list it as an option. Manual transmission only for the Sport.

I believe the 'Club Sport' version Trav is talking about was a 2003 model year only car.

Everybody OK now? Jeeezus. it's an old and tired routine.

[Greg Amy]

Are you freaking serious? Oh boy.[/b]

OF COURSE I'm freaking serious, Andy; do YOU want to give up a free 3-5 horsepower to a competitor? Hell, if so I'm all over it; I'll remove the power steering from my car faster than you can say "buh-bye".


The 99's base models came without PS....Everybody OK now? Jeeezus.[/b]
Excellent, thanks for taking up your valuable time clearing that up for the unwashed masses there, Princess. And you been on this forum how many times since we started talking theoretically about this subject three days ago...?

Talk about "jeeezus"...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Excellent, thanks for taking up your valuable time clearing that up for the unwashed masses there, Princess. And you been on this forum how many times since we started talking theoretically about this subject three days ago...?

Talk about "jeeezus"...
[/b]

Greg,

I am in California in an airport trying to get home, been here on business since Sunday night.

The anit-Miata thing is old. Why can't you do some interweb research before typing comments like:


Nah, not a conspiracy. One is chance, twice is coincidence, three times a charm...[/b]

The jury is out. I'm done.

[Greg Amy]

The anti[sic]-Miata thing is old.[/b]
Touchy, touchy, Andy. I think you and Travis need to get together and have a good girlie-girl cry, maybe go shopping or something. Your sweetie cars are making you softy-soft...

;)


P.S. had you made the prior post simply as a point of reference, dispensing with making sure everyone knows how "disgusted" you are that we would even CONSIDER such a discussion - assuming of course we were supposed to know that you've been sitting in a California airport since Sunday and all the construction details of a car that (coincidentally?) you're building right now - chances are your post would have been accepted more with thanks and seriousness than with derision...certainly by me.

P.P.S. By the way, there's a sale at Macy's this weekend; I can snag the coupon from my wife if you girls want it...

[tnord]

you and Jim Daniels should do an enduro together, i bet you even wear the same size helmet.

[Andy Bettencourt]

P.S. had you made the prior post simply as a point of reference, dispensing with making sure everyone knows how "disgusted" you are that we would even CONSIDER such a discussion - assuming of course we were supposed to know that you've been sitting in a California airport since Sunday and all the construction details of a car that (coincidentally?) you're building right now - chances are your post would have been accepted more with thanks and seriousness than with derision...certainly by me.
[/b]

:snooze:

Now it's on ME that I haven't been on-line that much to hand-hold you through the issue? When you don't KNOW something, you reserve judgement until you get the facts. Something you obviously can't do WRT a Miata. :rolleyes:

[Greg Amy]

Now it's on ME that I haven't been on-line that much to hand-hold you through the issue? When you don't KNOW something, you reserve judgement [sic] until you get the facts. Something you obviously can't do WRT a Miata.[/b]
Of course it's on "you": despite our structure of self-policing and protests, if there's questions as to what is and is not legal, it's ultimately the competitor's responsibility to ensure the legality of his car, not everyone else's.

Aaaannd...isn't "getting the facts" what we're trying to do here via this topic?

Aaaannd...isn't my writing above "I don't know the details on this particular model, but based on what's been written in this topic to date..." reserving judgment?

Like I said: touchy, touchy...but the Macy's coupon offer still stands. - GA

On edit:


you and Jim Daniels should do an enduro together, i bet you even wear the same size helmet.
[/b]
Sorry, Travis, didn't mean to ignore you; I just didn't see this post prior.

Ironically, son, I've already done an enduro with Jim Daniels! 1991 24 Hours of Nelson Ledges, if I recall correctly, in an ITS (yes, "S") 1st-gen Mazda RX-7. Ole Jimbo rolled the car way back in the Carousel, I seem to recall, but we still finished. We used our individual helmets, though I think you may be right: they may have been of similar size...

Jealous, aren't you? (And, yes, the coupon offer still stands for you, too...GA)

[joeracerx95]

Are you freaking serious? Oh boy.


Everybody OK now? Jeeezus. it's an old and tired routine.
[/b]

I think there may be some history going on here but as a new-comer to this group I gotta say, Andy, the above comments in your post struck me as condescending and insulting. And anti-Miata?? You could replace the car being discussed with any other and it wouldn't change any of the points being made. It seems to be about limited edition models, not anything specific about Miatas.

You might want to reexamine once you aren't stuck in an airport. :(

And rehashing old issues over and over again, well that's the life-blood of message boards. Don't try to stop it, embrace the lunacy of it!

Or, since I don't have a Miata or an ITS, I could just mind my own business. :blink:

-chuck-

[JLawton]

Although highly entertaining, the poor original poster probably has his head spinning.

You see, Greg and Andy used to be lovers and the relationship ended badly. They couldn't decide who would get the poodle. So forgive them for their little spats.

I still can't figure out which one was the girl..........








:P

[tnord]

I think there may be some history going on here......

-chuck-
[/b]

here's the basics of it....

Greg won the ARRC last year. He now thinks he's the worlds greatest driver (at least in the IT world) and he has the right to be condescending and an arrogant prick in all manners of public web forum. He also believes that Mazda, the SCCA, and specifically Andy have conspired to adjusted the rules to their liking so the Miata is a complete overdog. Since Andy in his Miata has beaten Greg on track in the past, and that nobody can possibly be better than he is, Greg believes the Miata needs to have over 100lbs of weight added.



On edit:

Ironically, son...

Jealous, aren't you? (And, yes, the coupon offer still stands for you, too...GA)
[/b]

Joe, if you want to talk about people being condescending and insulting, here's your example.

[Greg Amy]

They couldn't decide who would get the poodle.[/b]
It was (R.I.P.!) a Pomeranian.


I still can't figure out which one was the girl...[/b]
We swapped out, occasionally.



here's the basics of it...[/b]
I was right: you are jealous. Terribly.

(BTW, Lawton says the ARRC win changed absolutely nothing about me...'though I can't quite figure out what he means by that...)

[joeracerx95]

Joe, if you want to talk about people being condescending and insulting, here's your example.
[/b]

The difference is, Greg was insulting Andy. Andy was insulting everyone. Since I include myself in the "everyone" category, I didn't care for it much since I hadn't done anything to anyone. :018:

All taken with a grain of salt.

-chuck-

PS. I need to change my user name, everyone keeps calling me Joe. ;)

[Knestis]

...that's a different deal to get a single local dealer to offer their own trim level.

the club sport was in the print media offered as model, just like the LS and SE. everyone who took home a brochure knew it was available.[/b]

So applying that logic, my dealer friend needs to put ads in the print media and make brochures. Sorry - conceptually, that just doesn't hold water.

But of course, my question was predicated on the accuracy of Travis' information, which Andy's additional details - which I'm pretty confident he wouldn't post unless he knew they were accurate - contradict making my issue moot in this case.

On the subject of Gregandy, I trust Jeff. He was the pom's godfather.

Further, I don't think Andy intended to insult everybody. The Toyo Kogyo chip in basal lobe just makes him sound that way sometimes.

Finally, Greg is NOT pissed about the ITA Miata weight spec because Andy's beat him. Greg is totally OK with getting beat fair and square, even if he's not really used to it recently. Greg is unhappy because said car was spec'd through a process inconsistent with that being generally applied. It was expeditious but not right, and I'm equally unhappy with it. And Andy can't beat me, 'cause I don't run ITA.

K

[Eagle7]

PS. I need to change my user name, everyone keeps calling me Joe. ;) [/b] Just create a signature and put your name in it.

[erlrich]

Wow, and to think I've been bypassing this thread for the past three days...what was I thinking :rolleyes:

Had I not given in to curiosity this evening I would have no idea that:

The Miata was available without power steering....

That Greg and Andy were once lovers, but split up when they couldn't agree on who would be pitching and who would be catching...

That Travis is jealous because Greg chose JD over him....

That Greg is a condescending, arrogant prick with a big head....

ok maybe I already knew that :D

And the saddest part of all....

The poodle died :(

I need a tissue

[joeracerx95]

You're right, this is better than Desperate Housewives.

Wait a minute, did I just admit that I watch Desperate Housewives? Joe, the name is Joe. B)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Greg wrote:
Of course it's on "you": despite our structure of self-policing and protests, if there's questions as to what is and is not legal, it's ultimately the competitor's responsibility to ensure the legality of his car, not everyone else's.

Aaaannd...isn't "getting the facts" what we're trying to do here via this topic?

Aaaannd...isn't my writing above "I don't know the details on this particular model, but based on what's been written in this topic to date..." reserving judgment?

Like I said: touchy, touchy...but the Macy's coupon offer still stands. - GA[/b]

Greg,

You don't get it. First you take your standard GregA 'poke' at the Miata classification inferring that something has been done to give it an advantage. Then you bitched at me for 'not posting quick enough' - when I had no access to do so, then you offer me a Macy's coupon when I tell you to pound sand? That's rich.

You can try and 'get the facts' without your stupid little barbs that insult the ITAC and CRB. Maybe everyone in 'your circle' think it's cool but it seems petty.

You definately 'reserved judgement' when you wrote your little gem:
Nah, not a conspiracy. One is chance, twice is coincidence, three times a charm...[/b] :rolleyes:

Chuck wrote:
I think there may be some history going on here but as a new-comer to this group I gotta say, Andy, the above comments in your post struck me as condescending and insulting. And anti-Miata?? You could replace the car being discussed with any other and it wouldn't change any of the points being made. It seems to be about limited edition models, not anything specific about Miatas.

You might want to reexamine once you aren't stuck in an airport. :(

And rehashing old issues over and over again, well that's the life-blood of message boards. Don't try to stop it, embrace the lunacy of it!

Or, since I don't have a Miata or an ITS, I could just mind my own business. :blink:

-chuck-[/b]

Chuck,

You have to know Greg's history for anti-Miata sentiment. His distain for Spec Miata's and the ITA Miata classing process are well documented. When he then throws in BS Miata-hate crap (again, like he is documented as having an affinity for) WITHOUT getting the facts FIRST, it is an insult TO THE PEOPLE who volunteer their time to try and get this stuff right for everyone. Did I get fired up? Yes - but only because of his insinuation that something was bogus about this classification without waiting to first understand. If you were insulted by my admiditably peeved response to Greg, I apologize.

Kirk wrote:
Greg is unhappy because said car was spec'd through a process inconsistent with that being generally applied. It was expeditious but not right, and I'm equally unhappy with it. [/b]

But that is just not true Kirk. The time-frame of the classification requests and the nature of the facts were all 1st-timers in the 'history of the process'. I believe 100% the ITA Miata classification is correct and would do the SAME thing agian to ANY car, given the same timing and facts about the equipment. Agree or disagree with the result, but please don't imply it was an inconsistant application to a normal situation - or rushed in any way. It was a well thought out and logical classification given the information and timing of requests presented to us.

Things were going much smoother when I wasn't posting. I leave it up to Jake and Josh from here on out!

[lateapex911]

Greg wrote:



Things were going much smoother when I wasn't posting. I leave it up to Jake and Josh from here on out! [/b]

Wonderful................. :unsure:
Josh, your turn!

(New guys get the short stick sometimes! ;) )

[tnord]

So applying that logic, my dealer friend needs to put ads in the print media and make brochures. Sorry - conceptually, that just doesn't hold water.

K
[/b]

good try kirk, but not the same thing at all as the brochures coming from Mazda North America to every dealership in the country and being available to everyone.

[Knestis]

So I make sure he makes hundreds of thousands of brochures and sends them to every Mazda dealer in the US. Ta-da!

OR, he gets in touch with his buddy at VWoA and has him print and distribute them. TA-DAAAA!

Actually, we're going to end up at a place (probably) where your test is whether it's an "official factory option," which was the standard applied for a while in the Club. Pretty much every sanctioning body from FIA to NASCAR has had to deal with "specials," has used the standard I think you're heading toward, and has given it up for something like homologation production numbers requirements - simply because the distinction of which individual takes the initiative (me, my dealer, or some Bob in a decision-making position at VW) just doesn't make ANY difference.

Now, if you think I'm just being hyperbolic, Greg can probably share more examples from SS of yesteryore, and you can noodle over what is in place in the IT ruleset (today), that might prevent this kind of stuff from happening when IT gets really interesting to some manufacturer's marketing guy or gal, when a bunch of other National classes have exploded.

K

PS - If he's paying attention, Travis will recognize the potential of this topic as anti-IT-goes-National fodder. :)

[johnny yanez]

and to think all of this started with a power steering rack,, heck install a non power steering rack in the 99 and race it. let greg and andy alone. they can fight their own battles im sure

[Knestis]

The reality here - among those of us who've been playing this game for a long time - is that a cigar is NOT always just a cigar.

No rules question can be asked in isolation, since answers have a way of becoming codified as rules. Things that are being done that might be inconsistent with other things that are being done MUST be challenged, to clarify which thing is right. There is no such thing in this game as a little allowance that doesn't have some ripple effect on something else, and those ripples get amplified over time.

I'm confident that people think it's messed up for someone (me, more than likely) to take a simple question about looping lines and turn it into a discussion about what defines an "official option" but if we don't pay attention and learn from past mistakes, they'll happen to IT, too. Or again.

K

[lateapex911]

The reality here - among those of us who've been playing this game for a long time - is that a cigar is NOT always just a cigar.


K [/b]

Just ask Monica Lewinski........

(Although Clinton insists it is just a cigar....)

[cmaclean]

To the original poster, because apparently some folks in this thread are not listening.

1. A manual rack was offered as a STANDARD OPTION on the 1999 Mazda Miata.
2. If you have a power rack you have to remove it and replace with a manual rack or run the full power assembly.
3. There was no "Club Sport" in 1999. Please ignore all "discussions" about the Club Sport.