formula ford vs IT?

[fonzy]

im looking to make the leap to open wheel , i have been ice racing for 6 years, road for 2 seasons , i started off with a ITB vw scirocco , now running a ITA integra , i know that the costs are more , but really how much more? and what other pros and cons? i d post this on apexspeed, but they will just tell me to do it , i hope to have some honest input here

[Greg Amy]

As in everything, it depends on you and your desired level of participation.

Would you be happy in Club Ford? If so - and you don't wreck - it would DAMNED cheap to go racing, relatively speaking. Fuel, probably one or two sets of tires all season, haul it on a small open trailer behind a lightweight mid-sized pickup, rarely wears of break anything, and anything that does is not too expensive.

Wreck, though, and parts can be a pain to find.

Gotta go National Racing with the pointy-end of the field? VERY expensive engines, many sticky tires, lots of track time to learn to drive that thing at 10/10ths.

I drove a CF for a short while in the 80's, decided I liked door slammers better. But, I know CF can be done on a budget...

[fonzy]

As in everything, it depends on you and your desired level of participation.

Would you be happy in Club Ford? If so - and you don't wreck - it would DAMNED cheap to go racing, relatively speaking. Fuel, probably one or two sets of tires all season, haul it on a small open trailer behind a lightweight mid-sized pickup, rarely wears of break anything, and anything that does is not too expensive.

Wreck, though, and parts can be a pain to find.

Gotta go National Racing with the pointy-end of the field? VERY expensive engines, many sticky tires, lots of track time to learn to drive that thing at 10/10ths.

I drove a CF for a short while in the 80's, decided I liked door slammers better. But, I know CF can be done on a budget...
[/b]


im in canada so there is no club ford , everything is called formula libre, greg why did you like door slammers better?

[gran racing]

Have you seen the front of his bumper? :P



(Actually, I guess I shouldn't talk. Finally getting an opportunity to bump draft Ray at Mid Ohio was a highlight of my season, even if I did hit him a little harder than I meant to. :happy204: )

[JamesB]

are you trying to say hes a little pushy on the track?

[fonzy]

Have you seen the front of his bumper? :P
(Actually, I guess I shouldn't talk. Finally getting an opportunity to bump draft Ray at Mid Ohio was a highlight of my season, even if I did hit him a little harder than I meant to. :happy204: )
[/b]


what do you mean by this comment?

[Greg Amy]

Ah, they're just giving me grief because I like to "rub" on other cars...which is probably why I like door-slammers better... ;)

Regardless, lightweight formula cars are MUCH cheaper to drive than production-based cars, as long as:

- Replacement parts are readily available (or easy to fabricate), and
- You don't wreck often.

[JamesB]

Just dont rub in a formula car.

[supersmile]

Regardless, lightweight formula cars are MUCH cheaper to drive than production-based cars, as long as:

- Replacement parts are readily available (or easy to fabricate), and
- You don't wreck often.
[/b]

I'll second Greg on this one. Formula cars are much easier to work on than production cars. Most parts last a long time, although you'll probably go through lots of gearbox parts while you learn to shift the thing properly. Brakes, clutches, etc seem to last forever. Fuel costs are pretty minimal relative to everything else; I use a gallon of race gas every 10 minutes on the track. Tires if you want to be competitive will require replacements every two or three weekends. Formula Ford engines generally need to be rebuilt yearly, you can go longer on a Formula Continental or Formula Mazda. Take a look at the Pegasus catalog if you want an idea of parts costs. Most (but not all) open wheel drivers are very aware of the bad consequences of car to car contact and will give more room than the closed car drivers do.

On the down side, you'll tend to break things if you go off track, including sometimes just dropping a wheel into the dirt if there's a steep dropoff. Hit something, and you will be replacing suspension pieces, noses, whatever. You will probably need to change gearing for different tracks, which doesn't take long to do once you practice a bit but it is one more thing that takes time. If it rains, you will be very wet and wish you had a windshield with wipers and a roof. I've been bump drafted in a Formula Vee at Pocono, it was not a fun experience.

On the other hand, you can't beat an open wheel car for the feel of speed and the absolute joy of driving a car built for only one purpose, racing.

[Knestis]

...but if you like to really RACE - as in, head-to-head with other cars, in a wicked dice for position - you pretty much won't find that at the regional level in any Ford.

K

[supersmile]

Sad, but true. I meant to mention that in my first post. In many areas of the country, open wheel participation has fallen off dramatically in recent years.

Of course, that means you can pick up used cars for good prices!

[JoshS]

...but if you like to really RACE - as in, head-to-head with other cars, in a wicked dice for position - you pretty much won't find that at the regional level in any Ford.[/b]
Depends on where you are, of course. Out here at our last regional, we had 14 FFs and 20 CFs.

[Quickshoe]

I've done both....my first response would be; what fields are healthy in YOUR REGION?

Is it the speed that is going to give you grins or the race? If it is the speed you can overlook the answer to the above.

No matter what I've raced; karts, roundy round, IT, EP, FF, FV and now on to FProd my budget has been very very similar. It has been my level of competitiveness that has fluctuated. FF and ITA would be very similar in cost to be competitive at a Regional level. Money just going to different places.

Front of the pack FF motors are expensive. Maybe not BMW ITR/ITS expensive, but definately not HONDA/MAZDA/TOYOTA/NISSAN/VW IT class cheap.

Travel, entry fee and tire costs will be very similar (depending on your regions rules)

If you choose the right chassis body parts and suspension components are very easy to obtain. Crossle 30 series parts are the easiest to come by and they are a very competitive Club Ford.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

[RacerBill]

If there is ever a second race car for me, it's going to be something that the bodywork pieces come off with four or six zeus fastners each! (Having then EVERY bolt possible off my Shelby Charger!)

And I second everything that has already been posted. I drove a Ford with Skippy many years ago.

[fonzy]

thats part of the problem ,in my region(wcma canada) there is only maybe 13 or so open wheel cars , and my home track right now has 4 , where is last time i was there , we had 30 some sedans and most of those where in my class something like 13 IT2 cars? ( IT2 is our version of ITA)

[gran racing]

Have you driven an open wheel car yet? If not, I'd suggest renting one for a HPDE / open laping day.

Someday I'd love to get into an open wheel car for an HPDE! Now you got me thinking about looking into a rental. LOL

[gsbaker]

Have you driven an open wheel car yet? If not, I'd suggest renting one for a HPDE / open laping day.

Someday I'd love to get into an open wheel car for an HPDE! Now you got me thinking about looking into a rental. LOL
[/b]
My first time on track was an intro Skippy class in the F Dodge. Great fun.

http://www.skipbarber.com/racing_school/in..._to_racing.aspx (http://www.skipbarber.com/racing_school/introduction_to_racing.aspx)

[fonzy]

Have you driven an open wheel car yet? If not, I'd suggest renting one for a HPDE / open laping day.

Someday I'd love to get into an open wheel car for an HPDE! Now you got me thinking about looking into a rental. LOL
[/b]


i have driven a f2000 reynard on a fast solo 2 course , and i have solo2 a formula vee , but thats about it ,funny i thought you guys would flying the IT banner a little higher? :dead_horse:

[dickita15]

i have driven a f2000 reynard on a fast solo 2 course , and i have solo2 a formula vee , but thats about it ,funny i thought you guys would flying the IT banner a little higher? :dead_horse:
[/b]
Well it’s like Bill said, unibody cars are a pain in the butt, but around here that is where the great racing is. I would love to race a sports racer or a Gt car but there is no one to race with.

[Quickshoe]

There is "nobody" to race with because all of you guys bought IT cars because there was nobody to race with :P

I sold my FF because I felt, in my extremely competitve club that to run at the pointy end required more of a commitment than I was willing to make....both with time and money. FV was MUCH cheaper and had similarly healthy fields so I bought one.

I like the concept of the FST class. Faster than a FV, a tad slower and cheaper than a FF. However, it is a new-ish class and I am not going to buy one to be in a class of 2 or 3.

I sold the FV because even though there was a large group of cars in most of my races, there wasn't really anybody to race with....not being challenged I decided to move on.

I am now building a FProduction car that isn't "The car to have" because I need to challenge myself.

Figure out what will give you grins and go with that. Who cares how fast/slow/sexy/ugly UNLESS you do?

[JWiley]

I raced F440 back in the 80's and 90's (now F500), and it was a great experience until the SCCA got involved in an engine program and rules creep ruined the class. We had 15 car fields at regionals, and a good car cost $5K to $6K; now, cars cost $20K and there are very few cars at most races. I don't know what the situation is in Canada, but since these cars have snowmobile drive trains. it would seem to be a good fit in the Great White North! Seriously, if you find that there is a viable F500 presence where you will be racing, it's a relatively inexpensive way to get into open wheel, and the feel of the cars will give you a pretty good taste of the thrill of open-wheel racing. Don't let the "Formula Chain Saw" mockers disuade you, the cars are a blast!

James Wiley
Atlanta Region / HP Midget #72

[fonzy]

well our open wheel grids are quit small , and if i do join them it will be in a much older car , and a 1600 car , most of the stuff now id f2000's 2.ol with wings and slicks

[Quickshoe]

Have you considered http://www.formula1200.com/f1200costs.php ???

[Greg Amy]

...i thought you guys would flying the IT banner a little higher?[/b]
One nice thing about this forum: there tends to be a modicum of reason and objectivity interspersed with the unreasonableness and subjectivity...

If you're a fan of road racing, you're likely a fan of open-wheelers. We all realize they're a lot of fun, but it's a different kettle of fish. Sports cars evolved from production-based cars (hell, Formula One was based on production cars long, long ago) and I suspect we all harbor latent desires to drive a formula car (which exhibits itself in our enjoyment of karting on occasion...)

But, production-based cars are "easier": buy your fav old junker or salvage-titled car and turn it into a race car in your garage. Buy spare parts at AutoZone. Hell, license the damn thing and drive it to work!

Can't do that with a Club Ford... - GA

[924Guy]

Just bumped into a buddy of mine who moved up to CFC's... he mentioned it's a grand a weekend... :blink:

[supersmile]

"Just bumped into a buddy of mine who moved up to CFC's... he mentioned it's a grand a weekend... "

I did 13 races this year in FC and it cost about $700/weekend not including hotel and gas to the track, but including entry fees, repairs, tires, race gas, and a new engine for next year! That's on a regional level, like CFC would be.

[Knestis]

About the same time NW Region was playing around with its first set of (pre-national) IT rules, a couple of guys designed a thing they called Sports 1600.

This was when S2000s were still new but were already expensive and one of our friends built a CSR on an old SuperVee Ralt chassis (RT1, I think), with swoopy bodywork off of a Shrike S2. He burned up WAY more money they expected and the thing never worked very well, as far as I know.

Anyway, we were all hot on sports racers but financial reality made them a really dumb option. So (over beer and pizza, of course) Sports 1600 was born. Recipe follows:

** One Formula Vee of your choice - remove engine and bodywork, and warm over as necessary

** One dual-port 1600cc aircooled VW engine - stock rebuild from a contracted shop, claim price would be the same as a new one

** One set of bodywork of your choice or design. Must cover the wheels and space between them when viewed from the top but may be either full-envelope or "pontoon" style

** Run wing(s) if you think you can push them through the air and gain more than you lose

** 5x15" wheels with spec radial tires. At the time, I think we were looking at H-rated Goodyear Eagle GTs.

** Go racing.

A full pack of these things would have been great fun. This was (although not by much) pre-Spec Renault (now SRF). That option never really got me going although they are better now. Bodywork that didn't look like a baboon running away from you would help.

One factor has made formula cars WAY more reasonable in the last few years: The ready availability of pretty good rod ends. Used to be that a guy could go broke replacing tired rod ends on a FF or similar car but I think that situation has gotten a lot better. It's still bucks-up to have uprights ND tested, or to replace them when they are found to have cracks. Things like brake tophats are silly expensive unless you know a friendly machinist.

And there's another factor that might not be popular to talk about. You can actually kill yourself a lot more effectively in even a CF, compared to an IT or similar car. We don't have anything like the number of incidents in Fords that we have in IT (since the racing is NOTHING like as close) but when/if they do happen, open-wheel shunts are nothing to sneeze at. Scrounge up some footage of the old FF Festivals in Jolly Old, if you want to see some hair-raising tangles.

K

[gran racing]

You can actually kill yourself a lot more effectively in even a CF, compared to an IT or similar car.[/b]

This is actually something I was just thinking about. Last year I made a voyage into a wall at Lime Rock at about 70 mph, and walking away from the car the thing that hurt the most was knowing I just totalled it. I'm not convinced I would have been as fortunate in an open wheel car.

I think it would be an absolute blast to drive an open wheel car, and probably even race one for a few events. I do feel that I'd quickly miss the many great things of racing sedans pretty quickly.

[ggnagy]

About the same time NW Region was playing around with its first set of (pre-national) IT rules, a couple of guys designed a thing they called Sports 1600.

This was when S2000s were still new but were already expensive and one of our friends built a CSR on an old SuperVee Ralt chassis (RT1, I think), with swoopy bodywork off of a Shrike S2. He burned up WAY more money they expected and the thing never worked very well, as far as I know.

Anyway, we were all hot on sports racers but financial reality made them a really dumb option. So (over beer and pizza, of course) Sports 1600 was born. Recipe follows:

** One Formula Vee of your choice - remove engine and bodywork, and warm over as necessary

** One dual-port 1600cc aircooled VW engine - stock rebuild from a contracted shop, claim price would be the same as a new one

** One set of bodywork of your choice or design. Must cover the wheels and space between them when viewed from the top but may be either full-envelope or "pontoon" style

** Run wing(s) if you think you can push them through the air and gain more than you lose

** 5x15" wheels with spec radial tires. At the time, I think we were looking at H-rated Goodyear Eagle GTs.

** Go racing.

A full pack of these things would have been great fun. This was (although not by much) pre-Spec Renault (now SRF). That option never really got me going although they are better now. Bodywork that didn't look like a baboon running away from you would help.

[/b]

Occasionally, vintage "vsr"s from the North East will pop up on ebay or elsewhere. Same idea, except the chassis was replaced with a full 2 seater, usually LeGrand inspired and crude. I don't know if this was a regional or Solo I class attempt. There was also a short lived 'F100' class in England that was pretty much a cost controlled cousin to the DSR, and I believe cars designed for the former, ended up in the latter. The problem usually was cost controls that were not.

[Greg Amy]

...walking away from the car the thing that hurt the most was knowing I just totalled it. I'm not convinced I would have been as fortunate in an open wheel car. [/b]

...especially given the older tube-frame formula cars, where the design of those tubes surrounding your legs were never done with a consideration to crushability and/or leg protection...I can't imagine what a mess it would be in there if you hit the tire wall head-on at the bottom of the Downhill at Lime Rock...they'll likely be cutting you out of there.

[supersmile]

"...especially given the older tube-frame formula cars, where the design of those tubes surrounding your legs were never done with a consideration to crushability and/or leg protection...I can't imagine what a mess it would be in there if you hit the tire wall head-on at the bottom of the Downhill at Lime Rock...they'll likely be cutting you out of there."


True enough in older cars, not to mention the very real possiblility of chassis tubes that have rusted on the inside. On the other hand, newer designs are much better at providing protection, and cars are required to have crush boxes in front of the chassis. Since a formula car/driver weigh a third to half what a sedan does, there's a lot less momentum to deal with. I think in many types of crashes the lay down position in most open wheel cars is an advantage over the upright seating in a sedan, but then in a sedan you don't gererally need to be concerned with a car landing on your head.

I'd love to see some good stats on injuries/fatalities between the two types of car but have never been able to find them. Then again, maybe I'd rather not want to know....

[Quickshoe]

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.......I have felt for a long time that most of the fendered groups have a false sense of security regarding the safety of their cars versus open wheelers.

[fonzy]

well thanks for all the help , i have made the move and bought a 78 lola t540 formula ford

[Quickshoe]

Congratulations! Have a blast!