Wheels, wheels, and more wheels

[gran racing]

O.k., o.k. I know we've discussed wheel sizes in the "other" thread quite a bit, but still have questions related to how a wheel diameter impacts performance overall. I also recognize there are some tracks where a 205 tire is faster than a 225 regardless if it's mounted on a 6 or 7 inch rim. For the sake of this argument, let's assume that a person has access to plenty of 6" and 7" rims regardless of the bolt pattern.

I've often heard (from some very intelligent people might I add) that if a car goes down from a 7" rim to a 6" rim, the car would see a decrease in handling performance, again overall. In the "other" thread, it was mentioned that a 7" rim will weigh more than a 6" rim and therefore the 7" rim isn't better. I also stated while only somewhat being a PITA why isn't a 5" rim better than a 6" rim if that were true? Obviously there is an optimum point based upon g-forces, horse power, ect. but I'm unsure where that is.

Here we go again! :D

[mowog]

Don't ya just hate it when the answer is it depends? :D I'll use a formula car at Pocono for one extreme - narrower tires are most likely faster because there will be less mass in the air stream. This was also true for a GT-5 Nissan even though it had fenders. At the other extreme, let's say you are autocrossing. It's likely the same car will be faster on a wider tire. So the speed vs the width of the tire will often depend on the track, and somewhat on the car. However (you knew that was coming I hope), there are drawbacks - like footprint and braking. A wider tire should brake better than a narrow one. So again we're back to the individual track configuration. As to rim widths, part of the answer has to do with the tire. Some are designed for a narrower tire (like a cantelever design), and some for a wider rim. A tire designed for a formula car front (often somewhat narrow rim) can be quite different than one designed for the rear (often wider rim). And weight matters - both the weight of the rim AND the weight of the tire!

The best solution for you isn't easy - have some of your favorite tires mounted on each size, and participate in practice days that provide enough time to play with the various options. Of course it helps to be consistent enough to be able to feel the differences, they may be a bit subtle, and a data acquisition unit isn't a bad idea either.

[Knestis]

I'll bite. Here's something that looks a LITTLE like data, but isn't...

I finally got the chance to do a back-to-back test of 205s and 225s at the Ultimate Track Car Challenge NASA weekend. All new, all on the same kind of wheels, all in very similar conditions in sessions about an an hour apart. Both had effectively the same diameter, according to Hoosier (although I didn't measure them).

SUBJECTIVELY, the narrower tires were easier to drive. The car turned in better and felt more "unhooked" - more inclined to change direction. Unscientifically - since I still have never looked at the DL1 data because I keep being a dumbass and leaving the race computer with the car rather than bringing it home to West B. G. Virginia) I saw more revs at the end of the straight.

Net result according to the watch was that the difference between the two options was small enough that it was lost in the noise of my lap-to-lap variability. No difference.

Now, put someone with actual talent in the car and maybe they'd realize a difference. Or they'd be able to take full advantage of the better grip of the 225s. Don't know.

But on the strength of that test, we tried 225s in the front and 205s on the back for the Nelson 24 hours - and LOVED it. Rear tires realized better temperatures and didn't pick up like 225s do. Car had a better overall balance, I think. Of course, Nelson is kind of a special case.

For what it might be worth.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

I'll bite. Here's something that looks a LITTLE like data, but isn't...

I finally got the chance to do a back-to-back test of 205s and 225s at the Ultimate Track Car Challenge NASA weekend. All new, all on the same kind of wheels, all in very similar conditions in sessions about an an hour apart. Both had effectively the same diameter, according to Hoosier (although I didn't measure them).

....
K
[/b]

A little off topic, but I saw that you won 2nd place for the JV class. Congratulations.

[Knestis]

Distant second but thanks! We knew going in that it wouldn't be hard for someone to show up with some swapped beast that fit the class rules and kick us all over the place but it was REALLY interesting to see what the "track car" concept has morphed into. There were no fewer than five pseudo-factory Nobles there, with plates from all over the country and a semi full of crew and hospitality area for the drivers. :)

I kept thinking during the weekend that an ultra-light MkII Golf with an ABF Gr A rally engine and sequential 'box would be pretty interesting...

K

[lateapex911]

. At the other extreme, let's say you are autocrossing. It's likely the same car will be faster on a wider tire. So the speed vs the width of the tire will often depend on the track, and somewhat on the car. ....... [/b]

And even that depends!

Same car, two drivers, same rims..5.5", the 175-70-13 Yokes were 1 full second faster than the 185-60-13s. Same OD. For both drivers. YMMV.....

But, with that in mind, I'd love to see data on a 225 stuffed on a 6" rim that proves it's as effective as it would be on a 7" rim, as it is reputed to be by some in that other thread.

Thats a case of "prove it" in my eyes....

[JLawton]

Then, you also have to consider "overheating" the tires at the end of a race. May not have any bearing in a light ITB car, but it will in ITA.

I'd buy what ever is cheaper! ;)

[Gary L]

But, with that in mind, I'd love to see data on a 225 stuffed on a 6" rim that proves it's as effective as it would be on a 7" rim, as it is reputed to be by some in that other thread.

Thats a case of "prove it" in my eyes....
[/b] Couldn't agree more... I think in most cases, you're going to be better off on 205's with the 6" rim. I tried Hoosiers in both sizes on my car, and you'll never convince me that 225's are the right tire. On 205's the car drives better (more predictably), and the tires heat up and wear more evenly. And yes, the car is a little faster on the narrower tire... about a second per lap quicker at Hallett as I recall. And keep in mind, the Volvo is a 2640 lb car, not exactly a lightweight. The only disclaimer I'll make here is that this "data" was gathered using the older (S04/S05) tires; things may be totally different with the R6, but not likely IMO... there are now even larger differences in section and tread widths between the two sizes. I Haven't used any new R6's yet in either size... I've currently got a pretty good supply of SM take-offs. Like Jeff, I can't pass up cheap rubber! :D

[vr6guy]

Im extremely jealous right now! I could have a never ending supply of sm tires, but cant use them..... eh, first year of the car is somewhat developmental anyways. see you all in the northeast next year!

Marc Rider
Itb vw GTI

[ScotMac]

I am also thinking of trying the 225's on the rear and 205's on the front, though i am not sure if it will be a win. You would expect it would, w/ the rear weight bias of the fiero. However, i get a bit of understeer on entry, w/ the car being fairly even/balanced after i get the G's going. So, w/ the 205's on the front, i am worried i'll get even more understeer.

[lateapex911]

Or maybe the front will grip better, as the carcass isn't rolling and distorting the tread, making the 225 less effective than the 205....

[ScotMac]

And even that depends!

Same car, two drivers, same rims..5.5", the 175-70-13 Yokes were 1 full second faster than the 185-60-13s. Same OD. For both drivers. YMMV.....

[/b]

Two different drivers makes for too much variableness in the test.

I was running 205's previously, and and now running 225's, and the 225's are definitely faster. However, again, there are too many variables. The 205's were old hankook's, and the 225's are new r6's, and the driver is getting more used to unique handling characteriestics of the car.

I would like to do a more controlled study, but can't afford it. So, anyone want to donate a set of new 205's, 225's, and an extra set of 14x6" spinwerkes wheels, for the *cause*?? ;)

(though the spinwerkes are somewhat optional, since i could swap the tires)

[Gary L]

Two different drivers makes for too much variableness in the test.
[/b]You may want to read Jake's post again... I think he's saying that both drivers were 1 second faster on the narrower tires.

Incidentally, I confirmed via email today with Hoosier that the "recommended" rim widths in the A6/R6 chart are in fact driven by Tire & Rim Association standards and must be printed as-is. As I tried to point out a couple of times in the other thread, you have to read the Tire Care Tips page for the R6 to get the real lowdown on optimum rim widths. For the 225/50 R6, it's 8.8 inches, give or take a half inch (and it was the same story for the earlier S04/S05 tires, as well). Jeff Speer at Hoosier said his actual recommended rim width range for a 225/50 would be 8 to 10" if you want optimum performance. He also realizes that most people can't run those widths, and you should still get good wear and performance on rims as narrow as 7.5 or 7.0".

So... according to Hoosier, the 225/50 R6 will work on a 7 inch rim, but that rim is apparently narrower than what the tire really wants.

[gran racing]

In regards to the tires, I really don't think it's as simple as a 205 being faster than 225s on all tracks. In speaking with some of the guys at OPM, they did testing on various tracks and found some to be faster with the 225s and some to be faster with the 205s.

[ScotMac]

You may want to read Jake's post again... I think he's saying that both drivers were 1 second faster on the narrower tires.
[/b]

Oh, right...i read it that the OD was the same for both drivers! ;-)



Incidentally, I confirmed via email today with Hoosier that the "recommended" rim widths in the A6/R6 chart are in fact driven by Tire & Rim Association standards and must be printed as-is. As I tried to point out a couple of times in the other thread, you have to read the Tire Care Tips page for the R6 to get the real lowdown on optimum rim widths. For the 225/50 R6, it's 8.8 inches, give or take a half inch (and it was the same story for the earlier S04/S05 tires, as well). Jeff Speer at Hoosier said his actual recommended rim width range for a 225/50 would be 8 to 10" if you want optimum performance. He also realizes that most people can't run those widths, and you should still get good wear and performance on rims as narrow as 7.5 or 7.0".

So... according to Hoosier, the 225/50 R6 will work on a 7 inch rim, but that rim is apparently narrower than what the tire really wants.
[/b]

That is interesting. So, the "Recommended Rim Sizes" are NOT the "recommended" rim sizes. They are dictated by "Tire & Rim Association" standards? But their web site says that the "Measured Rim" is the one dictated by the "standards", and it is dictated by DOT. Hoosier's site says:

The reason for the differences lies in the Department of Transportation requirements for publishing tire dimensions
on any tire that carries a DOT certification. Each tire size has a specific rim that must be used when taking
measurements ("measured rim") for tire comparison. This is intended to allow consumers a consistent way to compare
tire sizes between brands.

(Note, parens are mine)

I'll give them a call.

[ScotMac]

OK, i talked to Jeff on the phone. Yes, he did say that the "Measured Rim" is dictated by DOT *and* that the "Recommended Rim" is from the "Tire and Rim Assoc" (TRA). He then went on to recommend 7.5" to 9.5" for the 225/50/14, but he admitted that his calculation didn't take into account the "lip" size (lip is mainly what supports the sidewall). And he agreed that taking into account lip size would make the recommendation 7" to 9" or 6.5" to 8.5", which is getting quite close to the T&R assoc recommendation. Also, that the smaller rim size would be better as the tire wears, since the shoulder will gradually wear away, creating a smaller tread width. Not sure how that jives w/ the sidewall, though.

It sounds to me like they are willing to put that tire on a LOT of different rim sizes (approx 6" to 10"), in order to sell more tires (not surprising).

So, the question for us is what is optimal or ideal, and then take the plus or minus 1" to give us a range (since Hoosier is BS'ing us). A good assumption is that it is zero sidewall angle (from vert). Using hoosier's published section-width, zero sidewall angle would be an 8" or 8.5" rim. Which gives us a range of around 7" to 9" (or 7.5" to 9.5"). Or ~1" greater than the TRA's recommendations.

[Gary L]

Now 'fess up... I'll bet you wish you'd had that conversation with Jeff before you bought tires, eh? :)

IMO when it comes to Hoosiers at least, you can plus or minus and wishful think until the cows come home... a 225/50 works best on something a lot wider than a 6" wheel, lip size be damned. For that matter, my money says the same applies to a 205/50. In other words, I'm betting the 205/50 Hoosier will perform better and last longer on a 7 inch rim, all else being equal. I hate to even bring up the category here in IT-land, but I have a hunch (having done zero research on the subject) that it's no accident the Spec Miata bunch is running that very combination... 205/50 on 7 inch wheels.

[shwah]

I don't have any experience on my car with different width rims. However I am stuffing 225s onto 13x6" wheels, but mainly because the 225/45-13 gives me (I think) the OD that I want. To be honest, it is quite possible that a 7" wheel would perform better, or course it ain't easy finding either size in a 13.

As much as anything, I am doing this to try something different and learn something that makes the car faster...or not. Either way valuable info.

[ScotMac]

Now 'fess up... I'll bet you wish you'd had that conversation with Jeff before you bought tires, eh? :)

IMO when it comes to Hoosiers at least, you can plus or minus and wishful think until the cows come home... a 225/50 works best on something a lot wider than a 6" wheel, lip size be damned. For that matter, my money says the same applies to a 205/50. In other words, I'm betting the 205/50 Hoosier will perform better and last longer on a 7 inch rim, all else being equal. I hate to even bring up the category here in IT-land, but I have a hunch (having done zero research on the subject) that it's no accident the Spec Miata bunch is running that very combination... 205/50 on 7 inch wheels.
[/b]

I think the analysis that i just did is correct. ie, that ~8" is optimal for the 225, and that 1" around it is "pretty good" (7" to 9"), and race usable.

I haven't done the same calc's for the 205/50, but my guess is that 7" is probably optimal for it, and that 6" - 8" is probably a good range.

And yes, knowing that Hoosier's "recommended size" isn't even THEIR recommended size (website is basically BS), is useful. I gave him some crap about it, and he took it pretty well, and said that they were thinking about putting YET ANOTHER SIZE on that spec chart for the REAL recommended size. That is obviously not the answer, just makes it even more complex. Since they already made an allowance for the standards organizations by making the "measured size" the DOT standard size, the should thus make the "recommended size" THEIR RECOMMENDED SIZE!! :blink: :blink:

However, i still don't necessarily think that 205 are better than 225's, on 6" rims. I think it depends on the car, and the track. They are probably pretty close, which is shown by the fact that it appears there is good number of people running each of them, and some running both together.

[lateapex911]

However, i still don't necessarily think that 205 are better than 225's, on 6" rims. I think it depends on the car, and the track. They are probably pretty close, which is shown by the fact that it appears there is good number of people running each of them, and some running both together. [/b]

Maybe, but you clearly have to admit that changing ITB to 7" rims could result in performance increases, due to some folks running 225s on a more optimal rim, correct?
And that there are cars that are rim limited, and that some cars will acheive better results, either fr one lap or 20 while others will not, or can't....

Which is NOT what you purported way back when you said any differences in performance between a 6" and a 7" were insignificant...

[ScotMac]

Maybe, but you clearly have to admit that changing ITB to 7" rims could result in performance increases, due to some folks running 225s on a more optimal rim, correct?
[/b]
We knew all along that 7" was more optimal and thus a performance increase: ~5 deg more optimal from my calculations. The only question was/is how much of a performance increase, which we still don't know. As i have said from the beginning it is a tradeoff: the greater supply of suitable wheels at more reasonable prices for B and C drivers vs. the impact from the improved sidewall angle.

All we have determined is that both 6" and 7" are further from optimal than we thought, the relative distance to each other hasn't changed. The "sidewall performance curve" is likely to be close to linear in the beginning, and more and more exponential as we get further from optimal. So, the question is, are we still in the "close to linear" area or the "exponential" area?

[lateapex911]

Well, that's just it....it's not linear, and it's not equal among all cars on all tracks, and...it varies from tire manufacturer to tire manufacturer......any thought that such a change will have negligible effects is erroneous thinking.

In a category based on stability, such a change needs to have a better cost vs benefit ratio.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We knew all along that 7" was more optimal and thus a performance increase: ~5 deg more optimal from my calculations. The only question was/is how much of a performance increase, which we still don't know. As i have said from the beginning it is a tradeoff: the greater supply of suitable wheels at more reasonable prices for B and C drivers vs. the impact from the improved sidewall angle.

All we have determined is that both 6" and 7" are further from optimal than we thought, the relative distance to each other hasn't changed. The "sidewall performance curve" is likely to be close to linear in the beginning, and more and more exponential as we get further from optimal. So, the question is, are we still in the "close to linear" area or the "exponential" area? [/b]

Scott,

Here is the point: There IS a real and perceived advantage to a 7" allowance over a 6". Therefore the NEED, both actual and perceived, will be instantly created by a change. It then costs EVERYONE money.

I will say this: I don't think the need is there to make a change - YET. When all available wheels dry up, then a move is warranted. Under 10# wheels are $300+ each for everyone, 7" or 6". Stock up when you can on the most affordable option.

[ScotMac]

Scott,

Here is the point: There IS a real and perceived advantage to a 7" allowance over a 6". Therefore the NEED, both actual and perceived, will be instantly created by a change. It then costs EVERYONE money.

I will say this: I don't think the need is there to make a change - YET. When all available wheels dry up, then a move is warranted. Under 10# wheels are $300+ each for everyone, 7" or 6". Stock up when you can on the most affordable option.
[/b]

No, under 10lb wheels for $300 are NON-EXISTENT in 6". They are $400+.

This rule (6") is an historical aberration that is only good for protecting the current racers stock of wheels, and hurts all new purchases and new racers. It will have to be changed eventually, and that hit (existing racer's stock of rims) will be same WHENEVER it is changed. So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels. [/b]

...and the sooner the whole class has to buy new 7" wheels to remain competitive - in reality or perception.

How many people do you see on grid with 9# wheels - regardless of class and availability? It's less than 5% around here.

[ScotMac]

...and the sooner the whole class has to buy new 7" wheels to remain competitive - in reality or perception.
[/b]

Whether sooner or later, that will happen. It is constant. However, the sooner the rule is changed, the sooner people will be able to take advantage of the cheaper and more abundant supply. That amount of people will be greater if the rule is changed sooner...it is time dependent, not constant.



How many people do you see on grid with 9# wheels - regardless of class and availability? It's less than 5% around here.
[/b]

You just made up that number! ;) I'll look around and let you know. But, in general, i believe their are MANY in the 10-13lb range. However, 6" wheels are almost non-existent in that range *also*, not just the 8-10lb range (take a look back at my study in the "Oct fasttrack" thread). 10-13lb are comparably abundant in 7".

[Andy Bettencourt]

I dropped the money for 8.8# 15X7 SSR's two years ago - so I take notice what people are running.

I think a rule should go into effect when it shifts from 'benefitting a few' to 'benefitting many'. I just don't buy it's teh right thing - now. It will be.

[Dave Ebersole]

No, under 10lb wheels for $300 are NON-EXISTENT in 6". They are $400+.

This rule (6") is an historical aberration that is only good for protecting the current racers stock of wheels, and hurts all new purchases and new racers. It will have to be changed eventually, and that hit (existing racer's stock of rims) will be same WHENEVER it is changed. So, the sooner the change, the sooner the new purchases can take advantage of the greater supply and cheaper wheels.
[/b]

I've NEVER had a problem purchasing 6X13 Panasports for my car and none of the guys I race with have ever complained about having trouble purchasing wheels, the Volvo guys, the other BMW guys, the VW guys, so I don't see how the 6" rule hurts US a bit.

[ScotMac]

I've NEVER had a problem purchasing 6X13 Panasports for my car and none of the guys I race with have ever complained about having trouble purchasing wheels, the Volvo guys, the other BMW guys, the VW guys, so I don't see how the 6" rule hurts US a bit.
[/b]

Yes, panasports and spinwerkes are almost the only supply of suitable 6" wheels below $400+ custom kodiaks. And panasports is a partial supply, since they don't support 5 lug rims in their custom stuff. And spinwerkes are 11+lbs. One and a half suppliers is an almost non-existent supply.

[Knestis]

...And panasports is a partial supply, since they don't support 5 lug rims in their custom stuff. And spinwerkes are 11+lbs. One and a half suppliers is an almost non-existent supply.
[/b]
...AND we are back to the problem being a problem for particular bolt patterns, rather than for "everyone who has to run 6" wheels." PhilsTireService.com just found me 3 more Kosei K1TS wheels (about 10.5#) for about $120 each. I'll now have 18.

And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a steel-bodied car with essentially stock suspension?

K

[shwah]

I have raced against ONE competitor in ITB running less than 10# wheels. The vast majority are in the 14-18 range.

I typically see one or two cars MAX in a given class with wheels like this. Often the number is zero. It is nowhere near standard practice at the CenDiv and MidDiv races I have been to.

[gran racing]

Looks like you need to use their 14" rims at 9.3 lbs Kirk. :)

[ScotMac]

...AND we are back to the problem being a problem for particular bolt patterns, rather than for "everyone who has to run 6" wheels." PhilsTireService.com just found me 3 more Kosei K1TS wheels (about 10.5#) for about $120 each. I'll now have 18.
[/b]

No, the supply issue is for everyone...it is just a bit more pronounced for 5 bolt or 5x100 wheels. Again, look back at my supply study in the "Oct FT" thread.

Also, my supply study said acceptable wheels were "< 15lbs", even though 15lb wheels are ALMOST DOUBLE the weight of the lightest available.

In terms of spinwerkes, i simply pointed out that they were not the ultra-lw (<10lbs) wheels that Andy was talking about.

Lastly, my supply study didn&#39;t have Kosei in it, because of very limited US presence (japanese company that appears to be just breaking into us market). In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. They quote a 14x6, 38mm offset, 9.3lbs and only a 4x100 bolt pattern at $119. That is a very good deal, and exactly the type of deal of we would have more than one of, w/ more than one bolt pattern, in the 7" width.

[Quickshoe]

My rules (VARA FProd) limit my wheel width to 6", I can run either 14&#39;s or 15&#39;s. With a minimum aspect ratio tire of 50%. Given the trend in tire choices I am choosing to go with 15&#39;s.

All of you B and C guys who will have extra 6" wheels, drop me a note with what you have.

4 x 130 or 4 x 100 bolt pattern 38mm offset MINIMUM.

I am looking for something 11.0# or less.

THANKS,

quickshoe(at)earthlink(dot)net

BTW--15 x 6 Panasports are 15#, the stock steel wheels on this car are only 15.5#! I love the look of the panasports (especially on a Vintage car) but the 15" wheels, especially in the larger bolt patterns are substantially heavier than the 13&#39;s on a FF.

[Z3_GoCar]

....And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a steel-bodied car with essentially stock suspension?

K
[/b]

Kirk,

Maybe you don&#39;t get the irony that you&#39;re arguing the point with someone who&#39;s not got a steel bodied car :blink:

What&#39;s next, how about carbon fiber :bash_1_:

My wheels are the stock 16x7&#39;s that weigh 16.5 lbs ea. I got a used set off of flea-bay for $250. Cheapest item on the car actually, and I think they might still be straight even after my shunt a month ago.

James

[ScotMac]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".

[gran racing]

In fact, i didn&#39;t even find a US based web site (they have an UK one, but doesn&#39;t have all the wheels). The only place i have found that carries them is the TireRack (believe they have an exclusive), and Phil&#39;s (philstireservice.com) is just getting them from TireRack. [/b]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.

[ScotMac]

Scot,
One of the great things about these wheels are that people can buy them in many, many locations. I went down to town fair tire, and yup, they can get them. Pep Boys? Yup. The list goes on.
[/b]

Dave, really? Haven&#39;t seen that. Pep Boys doesn&#39;t list them on their website. Guess it could be "in-store" only. CustomWheelsDirect, who have a huge list of manufacturers, don&#39;t list them.

Yahoo shopping lists them at TireRack, GoMiata (no 6"), and Carr Industries (no 6"). AllowWheels.com, along w/ a bunch of other UK vendors lists them, but not the k1-ts nor 14x6".

ProjectRoad.com lists them from.....TireRack again.

MSN Shopping lists them from....ONLY TireRack again.

Anyway, we probably shouldn&#39;t get hung up on the vendors of Kosei wheels. They are a very nice wheel, at a nice light weight, and TireRack is a good supplier. The point is we have found one manufacturer of lightweight racing wheels at an affordable price in the 14x6", and only in 4x100 bolt pattern. I bet if we go through all the cars in ITB and ITC, we will find many other (non 4x100) wheel bolt patterns (not just 5x100).

However, if we expand our search to 15x7" wheels, we have many inexpensive suppliers. If we constrain ouselves to just 13.5lbs or less, we have the following from just one website:

CustomWheelsDirect.com, 15x7: 253 wheels returned, w/ the following 13.5lbs or less:
5Zigen, FN01R: Available 13.5lbs
Enkei, RPF1: Available 9.9lbs
Motegi, LC5: check avail 12.5lb
Motegi, Trak Lite 1: Available 10.5lbs
Motegi, Trak Lite 2: Available 10lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 1 : Available 13.2lbs
TeamDyn, ProRace 2 : Available 13.2lbs

Because of that much greater supply in 15x7, we are much more likely to find good deals *and* all the necessary bolt patterns.

[shwah]

Note that the only sub 10# wheel listed is not exactly a budget choice.

[Knestis]

Steel bodied cars? Carbon bodied cars? Titanium bodied cars? It doesn&#39;t matter!!!

What the body is made of has very little impact on whether a lightweight wheel is relevant to your performance. It is like asking whether a lightened flywheel will help your performance if your car is made of steel!!!

Or whether aluminum hubs and shocks will help your performance, even on a "steel bodied car".
[/b]


...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Yes - when i went from 19# stock wheels to 9# Koseis, I saved 40 pounds. Yes - it&#39;s rotational inertia in addition to simple mass. But it&#39;s still less than 2% of the race weight of my car and we didn&#39;t get some great hunk faster by making the change.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. You clearly believe strongly that everyone should be entitled to extremely affordable, sub-10 pound racing wheels, as though that&#39;s the factor that&#39;s keeping everyone from competing on a level playing field.

It isn&#39;t.

They aren&#39;t.

Please don&#39;t let the fact that I&#39;m not arguing this anymore suggest to you that "you&#39;ve won." You picked your ride and inherit all of its good and bad points. You get a lower polar moment of inertia. Yay! Wheel supply for your bolt pattern sucks. Bummer! But you can&#39;t fairly generalize your problem to the entire category, even if you wrap it up in terms of how wonderful it will be for everyone.

Ciao

K

[lateapex911]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. Please don&#39;t let the fact that I&#39;m not arguing this anymore suggest to you that "you&#39;ve won." [/b]

Ditto here...



You picked your <strike>ride</strike> class and inherit all of its good and bad points. You get a <strike>lower polar moment of inertia </strike>choice of cheap cars. Yay! Wheel supply for your chosen car&#39;s bolt pattern sucks. Bummer! [/b]

A couple little edits...

In the end, I guess it&#39;s an agree to disagree issue...

[vr6guy]

give the people that choose to run 15x7&#39;s a weight penalty...... ill gladly take weight :dead_horse:

[ScotMac]

...And let me get this straight - the new standard for acceptable race wheels is "the 8-10lb range" - for a <strike>steel-bodied car</strike> fat-assed street car with essentially stock suspension?

There - fixed that for you.

Yes - when i went from 19# stock wheels to 9# Koseis, I saved 40 pounds. Yes - it&#39;s rotational inertia in addition to simple mass. But it&#39;s still less than 2% of the race weight of my car and we didn&#39;t get some great hunk faster by making the change.

Scot - you keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn&#39;t get any more compelling. You clearly believe strongly that everyone should be entitled to extremely affordable, sub-10 pound racing wheels, as though that&#39;s the factor that&#39;s keeping everyone from competing on a level playing field.

[/b]

I repeat the arguments Kirk because they are valid points that you have failed to counter.

It is humorous to me that 5deg difference in sidewall angle is classified as a large performance issue, whereas 10lbs per corner less rotating weight and unsprung weight is no change in performance. Good one.

(Note, the 10lbs is Kirk&#39;s numbers)

Yes, the low-budget racer being able to get a much larger supply of lightweight racing wheels, to compete w/ the $400+ big budget 8lb racing wheels is a monetary help/equalizer.

Yes, we have found one inexpensive lightweight wheel in 4x100 bolt pattern. That is not enough supply, even for 4x100, let alone the lack of supply for the rest of the bolt patterns.

[ScotMac]

Note that the only sub 10# wheel listed is not exactly a budget choice.
[/b]

No, but at $230, the Enkei RPF1&#39;s are not too bad either, especially when compared to the $400+ Kodiaks and Custom Panasports.

In Fact, i believe the Spinwerkes are also a pretty good deal ($231), but those Enkei RPF1&#39;s are similarly priced and over 2lbs less per wheel!!

[Gary L]

It is humorous to me that 5deg difference in sidewall angle is classified as a large performance issue, whereas 10lbs per corner less rotating weight and unsprung weight is no change in performance. Good one.[/b]

Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week. :) No one said there was a "large perfomance issue" when comparing 6" vs 7" wheels. And no one said there was "...no change in performance" when going to lighter wheels. They are both incremental performance enhancements; neither of them is going to make your Fiero 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster.

Incidentally, wheels may be the least of your rolling issues anyway... have you talked to Alan Hamilton (raced an ITA Fiero in SFR until a year or two back) about front hubs? The last I knew, he had not found an IT legal replacement hub & bearing assembly that would last more than a few laps... literally! These were unique to the &#39;88 Fiero, they fit nothing else in the world. The OEM pieces (no longer available from GM) do okay, but they do eventually fail under race conditions. The situation may have changed, but a year or two ago, the only replacement hubs available (from eBearing, I think?) were not worth the time it took to install them, never mind the purchase price, at least from a racing standpoint.

[ScotMac]

Alan must have *REALLY* had problems w/ the hubs. You are the 3rd (or 4th) person that has warned me about them, because of Alan&#39;s complaints.

I have yet to have a problem w/ them (where is some wood!!!). My car has been raced a 12 hour enduro, and a 4 hour enduro, and a little over one full season.

I have also found the hubs at Napa, autopartswarehouse, fierostore, and (surpisingly) gm parts direct. The autopartswarehouse one is made by "NTP" and fierostore says theirs is made by "auto parts international" (whoever that is). So, if i do have to replace the front hubs, i *hope* one of those will work for me.

[ScotMac]

Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week. :) No one said there was a "large perfomance issue" when comparing 6" vs 7" wheels. And no one said there was "...no change in performance" when going to lighter wheels. They are both incremental performance enhancements; neither of them is going to make your Fiero 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster.

[/b]

It was said that the sidewall issue going from 6" to 7" inch was significant enough to cause possible reclassing issues, but going to 10lb less weight wheels was not a "great hunk faster". ie, the sidewall performance issue was constantly puffed up, and now the weight issue is being minimized. What will be done to protect that stash of 6" wheels? :bash_1_:

[vr6guy]

After thinkin about this debate for a while and seeing good points on both sides, it finally dawned on me. There should be an allowance of a 7" wheel in IT. For the simple fact that it is a class that is based on giving people a chance to race, and not promising to be competitive. This is supposed to be entry level racing, so all of you who take it way to seriously should remember that fact. Also, for the people that have spent "thousands" of dollars developing their cars for these rim size rules are completely going against the philosiphy of the intent of the class. I know peole are going to go crazy over this, but I cannot be suaded of my beliefs!

Marc Rider
NER ITB GTI

[lateapex911]

After thinkin about this debate for a while and seeing good points on both sides, it finally dawned on me. There should be an allowance of a 7" wheel in IT. For the simple fact that it is a class that is based on giving people a chance to racing, so all of you who take it way to seriously should remember that fact. Also, for the people that have spent "thousands" of dollars developing their cars for these rim size rules are completely going against the philosiphy of the intent of the class. I know peole are going to go crazy over this, but I cannot be suaded of my beliefs!

Marc Rider
NER ITB GTI [/b]

Sorry Marc, but you might have a point if were were talking about entry level HPDE days...or lapping . Or participating as opposed to watching.

But we&#39;re not.....we&#39;re racers, and we race. To win. To do better than the other guy. Ergo, to seek a competitive advantage.

Philosophies, in racing, are nearly impossible to enforce when it comes to expenditures. (A claiing rule can work but it&#39;s very difficult to administer in a multi marque category such as this, and if it were to be done, it needs to be done at the outset)

You simply can not lay fault on people for following the rules to the extent of their abilities...and in racing, those abilities include more than the abilty to drive..they include the ability to find funding. Many racers improve their competitive package by getting better funding, either by working longer, harder or smarter, or by raising funds and services through sponsorship. It&#39;s the nature of this sport.

The rule book wouldn&#39;t exist if it was just about the philosophy....

[vr6guy]

well the class was started to give people a chance and reason to race..... Yeah , i get it you know the word racing, and race. Unlike you I dont want funding, and frankly dont need it. You want more competitors, and want to appeal to the "younger" crowd? Someone who wants to get started who is constricted by a silly rule about 1" for a width of a wheel is probably going to go elsewhere. This is my call for everyone to think outside of the box. The intent of the class is far different from the rules. Who exactly thought of the rule for Improved touring competitors to be able to change rim sizes? Did they take any consideration of the width, availability, performance advantages, disadvantages? My guess is not

By the way, I work hard,(scars to prove it) I work long, and I do indeed work smart. Who cares if someone you may lap in a race has a wheel thats 1" wider than yours? Is it really going to make a difference in the bigger picture?

lighten up :D

[ScotMac]

Exactly. Will allowing 7" wheels make it easier/cheaper for new racers to get involved? Very likely. Will it cause us to lose existing racers? Unlikely.

[vr6guy]

again, Ill gladly take a weight penalty for takin the big, bad, performance enhancing 7" rims. I would gladly settle for 15x6.5! Lets keep improved touring in a progressive direction. this "business" oops i mean "club" would benefit from it!! scca soon to be if not already scBa

my 2 cents......

hmm, what would matt weisberg have to say about this?! :eclipsee_steering:
lets just have fun

[dickita15]

Look l am all about letting people do what they want whenever possible, you know personal choice and personal responsibility. But there are a number of reasons why IT is the most successful category in SCCA and one of the big one is we have rules integrity that promoted good fair racing. In order to protect and preserve this, the rules must be protected.
When will B and or C get 7” wheels: only when the vast majority of the current B and C racers say they need it to keep racing. In the meantime they have the right to believe that rules will remain stable.

[vr6guy]

Welcome to Improved Touring.com. Our goals are to increase the popularity and provide an information exchange for the most affordable and competitive road racing series in America.

lets keep it popular, and affordable

[Gary L]

Exactly. Will allowing 7" wheels make it easier/cheaper for new racers to get involved? Very likely. Will it cause us to lose existing racers? Unlikely. [/b]The way for new racers to get involved easier and cheaper, is to concentrate on many, many things that far outstrip the need for 8, or 11, or even 14 lb wheels, in any width. Here&#39;s my advice... just run those gawd awful 17 pound, 6 inch wheels for a year or two, and see if you end up within 3 or 4 seconds of a lap record somewhere. If you can, then start worrying about serious suspension development, a professionally built engine, dyno time for ECU tweaking, etc. Then yes... maybe after all of the above, some lighter wheels.

You keep trying to convince us that the availability of cheap lightweight wheels is a big hurdle for getting started in Improved Touring. Sorry, but it&#39;s not. Some day, you&#39;re going to realize it wasn&#39;t even in the top 10.

[ddewhurst]

***hmm, what would matt weisberg have to say about this?! :eclipsee_steering:***

More shrimp please.......... :026:

[Greg Krom]

The way for new racers to get involved easier and cheaper, is to concentrate on many, many things that far outstrip the need for 8, or 11, or even 14 lb wheels, in any width. Here&#39;s my advice... just run those gawd awful 17 pound, 6 inch wheels for a year or two, and see if you end up within 3 or 4 seconds of a lap record somewhere. If you can, then start worrying about serious suspension development, a professionally built engine, dyno time for ECU tweaking, etc. Then yes... maybe after all of the above, some lighter wheels.

You keep trying to convince us that the availability of cheap lightweight wheels is a big hurdle for getting started in Improved Touring. Sorry, but it&#39;s not. Some day, you&#39;re going to realize it wasn&#39;t even in the top 10.
[/b]

VERY well put.

[JLawton]

Trust me, EVERYONE would love to do this cheaper. But you also have to have rules that make sense.




Welcome to Improved Touring.com. Our goals are to increase the popularity and provide an information exchange for the most affordable and competitive road racing series in America.

lets keep it popular, and affordable
[/b]

This forum isn&#39;t associated with the SCCA.

Wouldn&#39;t it be cheapest and easiest to run stock wheels?? Did your GTi come with stock 7" wheels? If it&#39;s an A1, you can get stock wheels for almost FREE!!. So I guess I&#39;m a little confused on where you&#39;re coming from?

Let me throw another question at you. The A1 front bearings are known weak point and should be changed multiple times a season for safety. Although not a bank breaker, it&#39;s still some coin. If Audi bearings were used with a little modification of the knuckle, they would rarely go bad and would save some money. So, do you think that should be allowed?

My point is it starts to open a can of worms. We can&#39;t make the rules based on cost. A new guy looking to race isn&#39;t going to make his dcision about IT based on the fact that 7" wheels are legal. It&#39;s still cheap to find a stock car (and wheels), put safety gear in it and race!

[Andy Bettencourt]

"Affordable". How do we difine that? It&#39;s different for everyone. It&#39;s completely relative. Improved Touring is the MOST economical class to enter wheel to wheel racing the SCCA has to offer. How FAR you go is up to you.

The only class I can think of that might be cheaper to run at the pointy end in a competitive region is SM, and that ain&#39;t cheap either.

I have a feeling the rule will change when availabilty affects the majority of B&C racers, not one specific bolt pattern. Heck, if you look at it like that, Greg Amy should have petitioned for about 5 &#39;custom&#39; allowances because nothing &#39;off the shelf&#39; is available for his NX2000.... A stretch? I don&#39;t think so.

[shwah]

OI. I am wading back into this to see if I understand the arguments for 7" wheels. If I got these wrong, or missed any let me know.

1. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because cars that get moved from ITA to ITB have 7" wheels already.
counterpoint - we should not change the rules for an entire category of cars because one or two cars are moving down from A.

2. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can&#39;t get 5x100 15x6 wheels for my car.
counterpoint - there are LOADS of 5x100 15x6 wheels available.

3. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can&#39;t get 10# or lighter wheels in 5x100 15x6 size for less than $350+ each.
counterpoint - correct, very light racing wheels are expensive.

4. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because they don&#39;t represent a performance advantage
counterpoint - well actually they can provide a performance advantage, and since your original goal was cheaper ultralight wheels an additional advantage is gained with lighter wheels.

5. We need to allow 7" wheels becuase I don&#39;t see how it will hurt the class.
counterpoint - unless we can see how keeping the rules stable will hurt the class, there is no reason to change the rule.

6. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because potential new drivers won&#39;t build cars due to the high cost of sub 10# 5x100 15x6 wheels.
counterpoint - some racers have changed from &#39;heavy&#39; oem wheels to sub 10# wheels, and it did not transform the car, thus the availability of ultralight wheels is not holding anyone back.

7. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB so more people can buy ultralight wheels, because as noted in the counterpoint to (6) they don&#39;t really add that much performance.
counterpoint - or if you choose to use logic, you don&#39;t need the ultralight wheels in the first place, thus all the currently available 15x6 wheels will work just fine.

The added weight for 7" wheels concept is interesting. However as someone who has taken the time and effort to build a car that is underweight, and ballast up to race weight, I feel this takes away some of the advantage I gained within the rules I built my car to. Now someone that did not bother to fully prep their car can just throw on larger wheels (and tires) to compensate for the extra weight they are carrying, rather than fully developing a car to run with me.

Say what you like, but this is not about &#39;protecting&#39; a stock of wheels. It is about protecting the stability of a race class that is not broken. It changes the game for a lot of currently competitive cars. The whole class runs on 13, 14 or 15" wheels. How many 13x7 or 14x7 wheels do you run across? If your whole argument is based on the availability of 15x6 wheels, what do you propose that those running 13 or 14 sizes do when the rule changes? Yes they can run 15x7 if they want (just like you can run a stock VW 15x6 wheel right now), but how is my desire to run a smaller wheel any less important than your desire to use a 9# wheel? What is being asked for does not represent a need of the class, does not represent a barrier to new drivers entering the class, and does not &#39;do no harm&#39; to those currently racing in the class. When 6" wheels options actually do dry up, I will fully support a wheel rule change, but we are not there yet.

[JamesB]

Trust me, EVERYONE would love to do this cheaper. But you also have to have rules that make sense.
This forum isn&#39;t associated with the SCCA.

Wouldn&#39;t it be cheapest and easiest to run stock wheels?? Did your GTi come with stock 7" wheels? If it&#39;s an A1, you can get stock wheels for almost FREE!!. So I guess I&#39;m a little confused on where you&#39;re coming from?

Let me throw another question at you. The A1 front bearings are known weak point and should be changed multiple times a season for safety. Although not a bank breaker, it&#39;s still some coin. If Audi bearings were used with a little modification of the knuckle, they would rarely go bad and would save some money. So, do you think that should be allowed?

My point is it starts to open a can of worms. We can&#39;t make the rules based on cost. A new guy looking to race isn&#39;t going to make his dcision about IT based on the fact that 7" wheels are legal. It&#39;s still cheap to find a stock car (and wheels), put safety gear in it and race!
[/b]


ding ding ding!!! I run stock OEM VW wheels. Though I did luck out with my knowledge and rummaging and get myself now 3 sets of OEM forged castelette (carbriolet) 14x6 wheels for my dry tires and I run snowflakes for my DE instructing and wet tires. Since I got my permit I have gone from a 1:38.xx at summit point to consistently running in the 34&#39;s and I am sure with more driver development and a minor alignment change and I can even best that (taking in the face come spring the track will be faster in general.)

I am not trying to protect anything, let the pointy end go out and buy an new set of panasport 13x6 for their 2002, I will stick with my oem wheels. The other reason I see no reason to go lighter wheels right now is it just means finding more room for another 40-50# of lead in passanger side of the car. Why bother when I am not at that point of the field and heck why not be in that end fo the field on stock wheels?

[Doc Bro]

Looks like the definitions of WANT and NEED should be clarified.


Need; air, water, nourishment, shelter.....deserted island type of stuff.

Want; evrything else.......


Carry on.

R

[gran racing]

well the class was started to give people a chance and reason to race.....[/b]

IT remains one of the best categories for people to get into racing on a reasonable budget. I can understand the frustration that Scot expressed about the overall availability of lightweight 5 x100 rims at a reasonable cost that would improve vehicles’ performance. (I do feel for Bill if those wheels are that heavy.) The key to that is improve performance, not be able to race. The argument that a person is unable to race within IT because they can’t use a 7” rim is simply not accurate. [Insert Gary&#39;s post here] Entry level you say? When a person enters the world of IT racing they either buy a previously built car, or decide to build a car. In either of these cases, the easiest and least expensive option for the person is to use the rims which came with car even if that’s the OEM rims. Need additional rims or want something a bit different? Make a trip to the junk yard where they have books containing information on what various makes / models of cars use what type of rims, and very inexpensively pick up a set or two.

I know that I said this before, but I started in ITA with 5” rims then moved up to 5.5” rims. At that point in my career and budget, that was not what was holding me back.

[Doc Bro]

Scot,

When I started in IT I bought an SSB car that had SSB legal 8" wide wheels....not legal for IT....but LEGAL for SSB. How&#39;s that one?

I ended up using 16x7 Spin Werkes made special. Thank God Kosei reintroduced the 16x7 in BMW holes. You should try to find a taller (16") wheel in a narrow width. Rim makers don&#39;t make too many pizza cutters for BMW.


R

[GKR_17]

This rule isn&#39;t broken. Those of us with odd cars will have trouble finding cheap parts. Factor that in when you choose a car. You won&#39;t get any sympathy from me. Try and find some 17"x8.5" rims with a 5x130 pattern that are light, strong, and cheap.

[lateapex911]

...... Unlike you I dont want funding, and frankly dont need it. [/b]

Aren&#39;t you the same guy who stated earlier that if you can&#39;t get tires cheap and so forth that you won&#39;t race, due to budget constraints?

earlier this month you said.....

Im what you would call a "budget minded racer". With that said, because of the budget that I have,(or lack of) I look for ways that I can save money while still being able to race. One of the ways is having an unlimited supply of take off wheels from a friend who once the tires dont feel brand new, are discarded. These tires i could easily run an entire season on. Heres the catch, the tires are 205-50-15. Which means i would have to fork over $299 per wheel for some ssr&#39;s in order to take advantage of this opportunity. All that money being spent because in the gcr it states that I can go to a 15" wheel, but it has to be 6" in width. So, that one inch is keeping me from buying a kosei or a kazera at about $109 a wheel(give or take a few bucks). I really would love to come back to racing after sidelining for the past 6 years, but this simple one inch rule is prob gonna keep from re-entering.[/b]


You want more competitors, and want to appeal to the "younger" crowd? Someone who wants to get started who is constricted by a silly rule about 1" for a width of a wheel is probably going to go elsewhere.[/b]

yea, like to another car with better wheel options, or hey, if they are set on the idea that rims have to be X" wide, why not go ITA? Tons of very reasonable choices there. And lets use some common sense here. The cost of the car is really a drop in the bucket when it comes to the big picture racing budget. Anyone considering racing needs to do their homework. They need, like anything else in life, to decide what their goals are, and then decide how to best get to those goals. Often people "have" a car, and think they are most of the way to those goals. That&#39;s usually the shortsighted approach, and there&#39;s remorse down the road.

New racers have plenty of choices...but...they need to choose wisely. And yes, we do need to balance the needs of the paying customers with those of the potential customers, but in so doing, it is important to remember the phrase about a bird in the hand...


This is my call for everyone to think outside of the box. The intent of the class is far different from the rules. Who exactly thought of the rule for Improved touring competitors to be able to change rim sizes? Did they take any consideration of the width, availability, performance advantages, disadvantages? My guess is not...[/b]

My guess is that you weren&#39;t there in 84 and 85, and can&#39;t remember that a 7" wide rim was the shizznizle compared to the 4.5 - 6" stock offerings...


By the way, I work hard,(scars to prove it) I work long, and I do indeed work smart. Who cares if someone you may lap in a race has a wheel thats 1" wider than yours? Is it really going to make a difference in the bigger picture?

lighten up :D [/b]

No, but I DO care if Bob gets beaten after doing his homework and working just as hard as anyone by a Frank who comes in with a wider rim. Or the hundreds like Bob....

I&#39;m (when my ITAC hat is on...) charged with protecting the stability of the category, and unless there is clear and undeniable evidence that a rule change is going to help a situation, and the lack of a change is going to hurt the situation, I have to hold.

[Quickshoe]

I chose the car I chose because I needed a challenge to delay the boredom. In choosing the car I knew of certain shortcomings...(availability of lightweight wheels being one of them) and certain things that I felt were advantages. I did my homework and chose my poison.

Now, if a rule was changed to eliminate one of the shortcomings of my choice why wouldn&#39;t I support it? Some may consider my choice of marque dumb, but I am not stupid!

[vr6guy]

84 and 85? yeah i was there... I dont even know where to begin. Some peoples perception on this matter, or debate, is way off the beaten path. Its no use arguing with people with the blinders on
ITB car running in spu? more shrimp please

[raffaelli]

As a complete new guy, my eyes were set on 15x7 kosei rims with 225 Hoosiers. Well, that stuff is on my &#39;nice to have list&#39;. The Del Sol 14x6 rims which came with the car when I bought it and close out 205 Kuhmo&#39;s are what I am starting my racing career on. I decided that using that portion of my start up budget was better spent on some useful tools like a Mig welder and a compressor instead of cool rims and expensive rubber. I can get by with what I have on the car. There is always &#39;next year&#39; for the cool stuff. Don&#39;t get me wrong...it is killing me that my &#39;have to have list&#39; is nearly resolved and not one item on the &#39;nice to have list&#39; has been marked off.

[lateapex911]

Smart....lots of guys never delegate like that. And you know what? No offense, but, you&#39;ll be nearly as fast, if not as fast for your first few events on those tires and wheels. Few of us were able to get within 93% of the cars capability for the first few events, and when the time difference between a setup like yours and the ideal setup is about 3 seconds in a 60 second lap, the numbers don&#39;t support the expenditure right away.

[shwah]

I am NOT trying to make any statements with this, but trying to help fellow 5x100 racers find some deals. This link is to a 13# 5x100 15x6 OEM Audi wheel set that I just stumbled upon for sale.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3490653

[JamesB]

Leave it to anthony to find some obscure light weight OEM wheel.

[ScotMac]

I am NOT trying to make any statements with this, but trying to help fellow 5x100 racers find some deals. This link is to a 13# 5x100 15x6 OEM Audi wheel set that I just stumbled upon for sale.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3490653
[/b]

Nice wheels....too bad only a couple sets of them in the entire US.

[JamesB]

Scot,

But what he is getting at is if you search you can find something for a steal you just have look. I could pick up a prize of light weight wheels. but that money is better spent fixing the car and preparing it for next season.

[shwah]

I wasn&#39;t trying to get at anything. I just figured Scot or others might want that particular set. Maybe some enterprising racer can find a way to source these from overseas scrap yards. Just trying to help those with more difficult wheel situations than me.

[ScotMac]

Scot,

But what he is getting at is if you search you can find something for a steal you just have look. I could pick up a prize of light weight wheels. but that money is better spent fixing the car and preparing it for next season.
[/b]

Those wheels are not a steal. They are offered at $150/wheel, for a wheel that is marginal in terms of weight.

However, I agree that used wheels is an area of possible supply. However, it is quite limited. Especially in the lighter weights suitable to racing.

BTW, spinwerkes, have just machined 16 5x100 centers (they prevoiusly did not have the 5x100 centers available for the higher offsets needed on many of the IT race cars). Spinwerkes wheels are around 11lbs, and about $200/wheel.



I wasn&#39;t trying to get at anything. I just figured Scot or others might want that particular set. Maybe some enterprising racer can find a way to source these from overseas scrap yards. Just trying to help those with more difficult wheel situations than me.
[/b]

Chris, not trying to attack your post, just trying to be realistic, in terms of how it relates to the supply issue.

[vr6guy]

Aren&#39;t you the same guy who stated earlier that if you can&#39;t get tires cheap and so forth that you won&#39;t race, due to budget constraints?

earlier this month you said.....
yea, like to another car with better wheel options, or hey, if they are set on the idea that rims have to be X" wide, why not go ITA? Tons of very reasonable choices there. And lets use some common sense here. The cost of the car is really a drop in the bucket when it comes to the big picture racing budget. Anyone considering racing needs to do their homework. They need, like anything else in life, to decide what their goals are, and then decide how to best get to those goals. Often people "have" a car, and think they are most of the way to those goals. That&#39;s usually the shortsighted approach, and there&#39;s remorse down the road.

New racers have plenty of choices...but...they need to choose wisely. And yes, we do need to balance the needs of the paying customers with those of the potential customers, but in so doing, it is important to remember the phrase about a bird in the hand...
My guess is that you weren&#39;t there in 84 and 85, and can&#39;t remember that a 7" wide rim was the shizznizle compared to the 4.5 - 6" stock offerings...
No, but I DO care if Bob gets beaten after doing his homework and working just as hard as anyone by a Frank who comes in with a wider rim. Or the hundreds like Bob....

I&#39;m (when my ITAC hat is on...) charged with protecting the stability of the category, and unless there is clear and undeniable evidence that a rule change is going to help a situation, and the lack of a change is going to hurt the situation, I have to hold.
[/b]


So your sayin its ok by you that someone spends an extreme amount of money to race in improved touring? The racing category invented to provide a place for people to race, and not guaranteed to win. A racing category designed for the entry level racer. So you think that its fair to have a $5000 car in the same race as a $30,000 to $40,000 car?(goescompletely against the intent of the class) Thats comical if you think it is. The remark about getting funding for racing is also comical, for the simple fact that this is supposed to be entry level racing. If you want to go that route than go national or pro. Leave the people that want to have a place to race and compete alone in improved touring. so exactly what is the reason that were allowed to run a larger diameter wheel. If you think about it realisticly, the contact patch of the tire to the track increases,(in my mind and anyone that has been through physics will know that a bigger contact patch will improve friction, which improves grip and handling). I dont want the super light wheels like you think I do. I merely want to utilize the rule of being able to use a 15" wheel REALISTICLY......

Marc Rider