Rumor Mill

[spnkzss]

Getting repaved? Any confirmations/information?

I've heard it is basically suppose to remove all concrete and complete by this weekend.

[Charlie Broring]

I am told there will be new pavement for this weeks Friday at the Track.

Charlie

[JamesB]

Interesting.

[RP Performance]

\

They are going to start the paving tomorrow. i will confirm tomorrow.

[mowog]

New paving? Yes - but unfortunately no time to let it cure. I expect there will be lots of bump, uneven pavement as a result. Sure hope I'm wrong.

[mlytle]

the whole track? may wonders never cease!

[lateapex911]

I just don't get why so many tracks try to cram paving into a tight schedule, then a month (maybe ) later, the things all torn up with concrete patches. Why not wait until the season is over and let it cure properly?

[jjjanos]

I just don't get why so many tracks try to cram paving into a tight schedule, then a month (maybe ) later, the things all torn up with concrete patches. Why not wait until the season is over and let it cure properly?
[/b]

Because, by the time the season is over, it usually is too late in the year to pave.

[lateapex911]

In the NE, paving stops just before Christmas. I'd think Summit could just not book some events at the end of the year, Worth it in the long run....

[ggnagy]

SP is pretty much a year round operation, and alot of it has nothing to do with racing OR track days. Cancel a car club event or three? Yes. Cancel those government driver training events? What are you, nuts? :blink:

[RP Performance]

The paving has started this morning.

[JamesB]

Brett is it just a mill and repave?

[RP Performance]

Looks like that is all they are doing to me.

[Greg Amy]

Looks like that is all they are doing to me.[/b]
Why in the world would they be that mean to you???? Damn that's gonna leave a mark...

[JamesB]

Why in the world would they be that mean to you???? Damn that's gonna leave a mark...
[/b]


I guess thats a perk of having a shop in gasoline alley?

[erlrich]

Why in the world would they be that mean to you???? Damn that's gonna leave a mark...
[/b] Bret is used to it - he is an SM racer after all. :D

[anthonywill3]

some pics I came across of the job..
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=154306

[spnkzss]

That truly is a shame that they are paving over the concrete and not milling the whole track. The curbs should be fun now. If you are going to do it right, why do it? :bash_1_:

[jjjanos]

Got to agree that, in some places, hitting the curb isn't going to unsettle the car as much. In other places - say the carousel where the curbing is at racing surface level - it might unsettle the car more, depending on what they do about the curbs.

My initial reaction is that, come along July, there will be pot holes down to the concrete in T1 and T3, but I've GOT to believe that BSR is aware of the risk and does not want to see his very expensive paving job ruined in less than a year. I.e. Steps have been taken to ensure that asphalt will stick to concrete.

It's going to be a whole new ball game next year folks. All of the pavement changes, cracks, lines, paint, etc that you either conciously or subconciously used for brake and turn in markers are gone. It'll be like a Twilight Zone where you are in an alternate universe where everything is the same, except some things are different.

[JamesB]

wow, didnt even mill it just tar and pave. I wonder how long before it starts chunking.

[MMiskoe]

Putting asphalt down over concrete is not something new, DOT does it all the time. Most applications use a binder between coats which is a liquid that goes down, right ahead of the asphalt. This liquid acts like a glue (and is impossible to clean up once on your boots). Doesn't matter what is underneath it if the substrate is not clean and free of loose material, it would be like sticking tape on sand. Also, if the new asphalt does not achieve the correct compaction it won't hold up. It has to get rolled while its hot so it packs together, otherwise it won't be strong. I'd be more worried about this than bonding to the concrete as you'll end up w/ pot holes and washboards in the brake zones if proper compaction is not achieved.

The fact that they aren't milling it may not eliminate that whoop-di-do in the middle of turn 9. But I won't miss that transistion onto the concrete at the turn in for 5 or that crap peeling apart in the carosel. Either way, spending money like that is a show of commitment that they have no plans to change what the track is used for, ie its not headed for sub-division.

Matt

[JamesB]

In many more words you hit my point of "chunking" as I call it. Beyond the washboarding in the braking zone, I am worried about the push in the turn ins. and yes I will be very happy the filling loosening transision in 5 will be gone (and I really did have a filling come loose on labor day weekend and had to have it fixed the following week.)

[SRX7#27]

They did it the same way when they repaved last time.. That was 1998 or so.. There was a MARRS or maybe it was the National 2 days later and the ashpahlt started breaking up in turn 6A.. For the rest of the season, they would water down the track on hot days to keep it from chunking.. Then there would be a 30 minute delay each time to wait for the track to dry.. I heard after the FATT this weekend is a NASA event.. That can't be too good for a fresh surface..

[jjjanos]

Gawd, my memory is shot. I believe that in the last 15 years, the track has been repaved twice, excluding the current job.

The first was done in two sections - the lower part of the track - starting somewhere in the chute and then later, the upper part of the track. (I remember this because when I flagged my first MARRS event - spring 1999 - I was at 5 and the braking zone at 5 was covered in a thick layer of tire smoke. The comments from the other flagger was that "their carrying more speed down through the chute because of the repaving and they aren't realizing it until they get down here...")

I'm also pretty sure that there was a complete repaving since then and everybody was hoping the concrete would be gone, but it wasn't and everybody was amazed that they could prep the track and repave it in the 7 days they had allocated. Worse yet, the roller went over one of the concrete patches and broke it, leading to the chunking we have now.

Then again, I don't remember where I put my keys so I could be wrong on this.

[robits325is]

Does anyone know the approx. cost of the re-paving? When I hear the estimates of $5,000,000 for 1.78 miles at Lime Rock - I wonder how it can become so expensive.

[Charlie Broring]

My memory recalls the last full track repaving being in late 1999 or maybe 98. It was right before the last MARRS race of the year. I watched the pavement go down on Thursday afternoon waiting to get into the paddock. We practiced on it Friday and raced on it that weekend. I remember that everyone dropped 1-2 seconds per lap with that new pavement that weekend. By spring of next year the new pavement had lost most of it's extra grip.

I hope to try it out this Friday.

Charlie

[jjjanos]

Does anyone know the approx. cost of the re-paving? When I hear the estimates of $5,000,000 for 1.78 miles at Lime Rock - I wonder how it can become so expensive.
[/b]

Depends on what you mean by repaving, i.e. what is being done to the stuff already there and the road bed under it.

Asphalt Concrete - Asphalt concrete, normally known simply as asphalt, is a composite material commonly used for construction of pavement, highways and parking lots. It consists of asphalt binder and mineral aggregate mixed together then laid down in layers and compacted.

Asphalt Binder - In U.S. terminology, asphalt (or asphalt cement) is the carefully refined residue from the distillation process of selected crude oils. Outside North America, the product is called bitumen.

Oil that is, black gold, texas tea.... $80/bbl

Cost of paving based on a SWAG:

From the city of Staunton VA website - "The cost to pave one lane for one mile is $86,000."

Multiple by 4 for 4 lanes and assume that racing asphalt is 5 times as expensive as the stuff put on city streets - you're at $2.125 million per mile paving. Total cost for 1.53 miles = $3.3 million

YMMV.

[mlytle]

My memory recalls the last full track repaving being in late 1999 or maybe 98. It was right before the last MARRS race of the year. I watched the pavement go down on Thursday afternoon waiting to get into the paddock. We practiced on it Friday and raced on it that weekend. I remember that everyone dropped 1-2 seconds per lap with that new pavement that weekend. By spring of next year the new pavement had lost most of it's extra grip.

I hope to try it out this Friday.

Charlie
[/b]
wellllll, we expect a full report after you try it out!

nasa this weekend? nah, they won't tear it up? they don't drive fast enough.... :lol:

[ggnagy]

Didn't I see this paving project on Top Gear the other night?

[spnkzss]

Didn't I see this paving project on Top Gear the other night?
[/b]

Sounds about right. 24 hours to do a mile. Wonder if they are yelling through the megaphone too.

[Magical Trevor]

That $5mil estimate for Lime Rock may be high because Chip stated this past weekend that he wants (as already known, a full bed-up paving job with) the highest-caliber racing pavement out there-"with rubber already in it and polymers and that kind of stuff."
He said it probably costs twice as much-"way too much, anyway."

[SRX7#27]

>>nasa this weekend? nah, they won't tear it up? they don't drive fast enough.... :lol:
[/quote]


Wasn't gonna go there Charlie!

Apparently for tomorrow we'll have cones marking the braking zones, turn ins, apexes, etc. but there won't be any paint on the surface yet.. They're sending Pat out to figure out where the cones and markers go while we have the instructor's meeting, then we run our session and have a second meeting before we go out with the students.. I'm guessing the drop offs on the edges of the track will be a little steeper with the new layer of asphalt.. So anybody have any driving tips for pure virgin asphalt?

[spnkzss]

I'll have to go out there before NASA shows up, move each cone in about 10 feet, sit back with a six pack and watch.

:OLA:

[jjjanos]

I'm guessing the drop offs on the edges of the track will be a little steeper with the new layer of asphalt..[/b]

I would not drop a wheel off.


So anybody have any driving tips for pure virgin asphalt?[/b]

Make sure that the asphalt is really sure that it is ready to be driven, go slow at first until it gets use to the car and, above all else get the track home before curfew if you want to drive it again....

[Gregg]

I'll have to go out there before NASA shows up, move each cone in about 10 feet, sit back with a six pack and watch.[/b]
If you could get the guy who's video taping the ITA ARRC race to video tape that I know of a few people who'd be willing to pay good money. :blink: :wacko:

[spnkzss]

If you could get the guy who's video taping the ITA ARRC race to video tape that I know of a few people who'd be willing to pay good money. :blink: :wacko:
[/b]

I'll get right on that. Still some argument over payment ;)

[mlytle]

ok FATT guys.....how was it today???

[SRX7#27]

ok FATT guys.....how was it today???
[/b]

Prepare to watch existing lap records tumble! Very smooth, very fast. In other words, about what we expected. For the first session, it was kind of eerie.. Sort of like playing a computer game version of a track you know.. I noticed more of a crown in the center of the track where the 2 paved sides meet. It was most pronounced exitin T8. As you crest the crown while tracking out, the rear of the car felt like it was lighter than it normally gets.. I was concerned that might catch some of the higher powered cars in group 2 off guard, but it turned out to not be an issue. I'm thinking the seam between the 2 halves of the surface was worn down a little during the early sessions, and by lunch I could hardly feel it at all.. Superb grip everywhere. Turn 1 and turn 5 have much more grip and are a lot smoother to enter than when we had concrete there. The exit of turn 3 is now unpainted ashphalt all the way to the edge where the gravel begins. Was really the same way before, but with a little slippery paint on the edge.. Same with the exit of T8.. They can leave it that way and I'd be happy. They did a nice job raising the surface on the edges of the track so there's no drop off from the new surface, but that meant there was lots of dirt and dust on the edges, and the wind didn't help at all. I never really went out the the edge of the track for my normal T4 turn-in because there was a lot of dirt out there, but 4 still felt really good. A good rain will take care of that.. 10 felt really good, once somebody punted that damned cone off the gator teeth and I could take a wide exit. Some of the street car guys were complaining there were still undulations in the surface, but from what I can tell, they're the same ones we've always had. This wasn't a full tear down and resurface operation, and I think BSR did a nice job considering the time they had to do the work.. I also think cars with predictive lap timers are going to see some crazy fast theroretical best lap times when testing starts in the spring..

[Charlie Broring]

I really liked the new surface. The pavement made the track look very different, an even dark black with most of the landmarks I was used to now covered up. Despite with the new look it seemed pretty easy to adapt. All the choppy little bumps are gone but the low frequency undulations are still there working the suspension. There was a lot more grip. Also the new pavement was carried over the concrete at the apex and track out points in a few places and it made the track feel 'wider' especially in turn 3. I felt the same weirdness at the crest of the track exiting T8. I also felt the seam in the middle of the straight away which may be an issue for those of us who zig zag down the straight for some reason or the other. I'm looking forward to seeing how much our lap times drop next season.

Charlie Broring

[mlytle]

nasa folks all reporting a 1-2 sec drop in personal best times all around. nothing like new surface and dry, 60deg wx!

[ajn]

got down to a 1:25.3 in the race today in my ITA/H4 CRX...records will definitely fall for next season!!

AJ