How do I rent?

[jumbojimbo]

Ok, let's say I'm thinking of trying this the 'smart way' and get into racing by renting. It does sound like people of had successful renting experiences.

Let's say the plan is to rent a car for a PDX, then school and then about 2 races. I don't have any hope of actually being fast so my goal would be to find a dependable but not necessarily competitive car.

Tons of questions.

I don't generally see cars for rent in GL. Are they really out there? How in the heck do I find them? I assume that rentals are generally cars that outclassed or underprepared for the class. Do people maintain rental-only cars or do they rent out their own race cars to cover their own cost? Which is the better option to rent?

What kind of $ would I expect to pay for a reliable but uncompetitive car?

I understand that when you rent a car you have to be prepared to write the car off. But what's the process? I sure wouldn't want to total someone's rusty MR2 and have them trying to get $8k from me. Or me total someones ITS RX-7 and expect to only pay $3k. Is there a pre-determined 'bond' for the car? What if the car is just damaged, how do you come to a resolution of fix-it pricing? Again, I don't want to wrinkle a fender and pay for a full paint job.

How do you decide what is wear and tear and what is damage? Somebody is going to rent me a car and then afterward say "oh, low compression in the rear rotor." The whole point is that I don't have to bring a crew, so how do I know what is what without bringing someone along to watch for my interests? I don't mean to sound like I expect to be ripped off. But when there are thousands of dollars involved how to I not look like an ATM machine? And surely the renter is not going to want to argue with me about whether I missed a shift or his car just broke. I'm not trying too get out of paying for something I do, but I'm leary that this can be done without either me or the renter feeling unhappy.

How do you negotiate a level of preparation? Clearly the renter can't supply a new set of tires for every event otherwise he's losing money. How am I not at his mercy for whatever leftover tires (and other prep) he feels like bringing along? I mean, it's not like it's going to be in the rental agreement "one set of of tires used between 2 and 4 events".

Lots more questions, but maybe that's a start. thanks for any helpful thoughts.

jim

[thedemoguy]

That's a very good start, because I have a very well prepared ITC Rabbit that I haven't raced this year and would of rented it out all season but had no idea how to do it comfortably for the renter or me, the risk is high and the cost of maintenance is also high.

So how would the average guy rent a car to another average guy and still make a reasonable return on his investment without the renter feeling as if he was just mugged...

Very interesting dilemma.

[Knestis]

I can't tell you how it works for everyone but here's our practice, from 20+ years of reasonably successful renting of race cars:

>> I assume that rentals are generally cars that outclassed or underprepared for the class. Do people maintain rental-only cars or do they rent out their own race cars to cover their own cost? Which is the better option to rent?

Not true, at least in our case and for some other reputable rental options I know of. I rent out the car that I actually drive, to generate revenues to allow me to race without going into debt. The car I own (prepared and managed by Conover Motor Sports in Burlington, NC) is pretty much top-notch, lacking only a 10/10ths engine management system. I could have pimpier double-adjustable struts and a Pi dash but those will happen down the road. :) If it were me, I wouldn't rent a car that the owner doesn't race him- or herself.

>> What kind of $ would I expect to pay for a reliable but uncompetitive car?

I don't know because I won't rent you one. :) It's my experience that there are a lot of cars out there that are uncompetitive BECAUSE they are unreliable. Ours is both reliable and competitive. Oh, yeah...

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/nelson078.jpg

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/events07.php

We use a repeatable formula for rentals, based on the distance traveled, number of days of the event, actual track time. If you get me the details of an event or events you want to run, I can work it out for you. Conover's at-track gig also offer additional stuff - hospitality for guests, driver coaching with the data-acquisition system, graphic space on the car for sponsors, etc.

http://raceconover.com/images/trackkit.jpg

>> I understand that when you rent a car you have to be prepared to write the car off. But what's the process? I sure wouldn't want to total someone's rusty MR2 and have them trying to get $8k from me. Or me total someones ITS RX-7 and expect to only pay $3k. Is there a pre-determined 'bond' for the car? What if the car is just damaged, how do you come to a resolution of fix-it pricing? Again, I don't want to wrinkle a fender and pay for a full paint job.

I've established the "burns to the ground" replacement price at $20,000 but the chances of it getting to that point are pretty remote. The letter of agreement that we use explains very simply that if the car gets damaged when you are driving it, you put it back to the way it was. We work with drivers to make that as reasonable as possible (e.g., we don't just drop it off at the body shop and say "fix it and send the bill to this guy.")

We've had renters source parts, for example and one guy back in Seattle had a body guy who did his fix for some kind of deal. I reserve the right, particularly with new renters, to take a damage deposit - typically $2000 - which is then refunded after the event. There are at least three people who post here with some regularity who I think can speak firsthand about our process.

>> How do you decide what is wear and tear and what is damage? Somebody is going to rent me a car and then afterward say "oh, low compression in the rear rotor." The whole point is that I don't have to bring a crew, so how do I know what is what without bringing someone along to watch for my interests? I don't mean to sound like I expect to be ripped off. But when there are thousands of dollars involved how to I not look like an ATM machine? And surely the renter is not going to want to argue with me about whether I missed a shift or his car just broke. I'm not trying too get out of paying for something I do, but I'm leary that this can be done without either me or the renter feeling unhappy.

My policy has until recently been, if an engine or transmission fails, it was just lousy luck that you were driving at the time, so you don't get charged for that. However, we've now got a DL1 data-acquisition system so the policy has changed. If there's evidence from that system of abuse that can reasonably be determined to have been a proximal cause of the failure (e.g., missed shift), you agree to pay for the repairs.

>> How do you negotiate a level of preparation? Clearly the renter can't supply a new set of tires for every event otherwise he's losing money. How am I not at his mercy for whatever leftover tires (and other prep) he feels like bringing along? I mean, it's not like it's going to be in the rental agreement "one set of of tires used between 2 and 4 events".

Tires are a great question. For Regionals (not the long enduros that we do a lot of), I typically charge for two new tires, put them on the front, and let you burn up as much rubber as you want over the course of the weekend. If I had a deal with someone like you describe - a season of racing - I'd encourage you to buy your own tires, that would only go on the car for you. Then you could do whatever you want. Generally though, you get what you pay for in terms of preparation and support quality. You won't start a race with body damage in my car, if I can help it.

That might be more than you wanted to know but I'm a full-disclosure kind of guy. Make SURE that you do some legwork to learn as much as you can from past drivers of any rental op before you commit your dough.

Have fun!

Kirk

EDIT - To answer Bill's question about being mugged, don't rent your car out unless you're willing to do it for the kind of money it actually takes for it to make sense. Renters - if I tell you that you should expect to spend $800-1800 for a weekend rental, the problem is not that the rental price is too high: It's that you can't afford to go racing. That low figure by the way is for a shared ride at a short "enduro" - like a 90-min. ECR or similar. Absolutely the most affordable way to go.

[JLawton]

I wouldn't rent from anyone I don't know or didn't have a great reputation.

I've rented from Kirk. Everything was laid out ahead of time, all very fair. And his car comes to the track at a 10/10ths prep level. And yes, very competitive (but I like to think that was due to the drivers ;) ). I had a blast with them. Some of the most fun racing I've ever done!! I did do some damage to the car once, but everything was up front and handled very well and fair.

I personally wouldn't rent from people (or do an enduro) that I didn't like and get along with. The last thing you want to do is spend the weekend with a dick head. Again, asking around, getting recommendations is the way to go.

Remember, the first couple of schools and races will determine if you stick with it or not, so make it a positive experience.

Where are you from?

[lateapex911]

Just a side note: The information and advice you got from Kirk is as good as you would get if you were talking to Dumbledore. Bank on it.

Rent from someone that can answer your questions, has the time to devote to your situation, and that you feel comfortable with. You might pay more for such an arrangement, but it's going to pay back with dividends. The person who rents to you could be your mentor, your guide through the procsss of the SCCA school system, a coach, an instructor and even a cheerleader.

[jumbojimbo]

I'm in Dayton, Ohio. Good info so far, thanks.

Yeah, I see the point on car prep. I didn't mean to imply that all rentals are doggy has-beens. I should have made the distinction between a learn-to-race rental and a drive-to-win rental. I'm just looking to burn up a few thousand dollars to see if this really is as fun as I think it would be. Or would the first event scare the motivation out of me. It seems that about 53% of people think it is smarter to start with a rental.

Lot to think about. It seems one of the best bets is to start networking within my region and neighboring regions. And let my reputation as a middle aged PDX driver who doesn't hit things or scare the instructors work in my favor.

Not to get off track, but that is one thing missing from the SCCA PDX program. There is little progression from PDX upward. The leap from PDX to regional racing is huge. I saw elsewhere discussion of NASA events that end with a TT session for those who are signed off. That's an interesting idea. As usual, it's hard to picture risk averse SCCA doing something like that.

jim

[dickita15]

A time trial could easily be incorporated into the part of the day in an SCCA PDX however the time trial portion would have to be limited to the cars that are prepped to the higher TT safety specs. Cages and such. Not a bad idea though actually. Add a little excitement to the day while still allowing entry level pdx groups.

A time trial could easily be incorporated into the part of the day in an SCCA PDX however the time trial portion would have to be limited to the cars that are prepped to the higher TT safety specs. Cages and such. Not a bad idea though actually. Add a little excitement to the day while still allowing entry level pdx groups.

[Ed Funk]

:P You can say that again, Dick! :lol:

[JeffW]

In the past couple of years (after the loss of 3 tracks in the Denver area), RM Div has been doing PDX/TT/Club Racing on the same day schedule. It has been a great source of cross promotion for the club. Road racers are going to Solo events and Solo/PDX folks have been seeking out the road racers for TT vehicles.

We saw major declines in car counts when gas hit $3 and we lost the 3 tracks. Combining PDX/TT/Club Racing was an economic necessity but we are starting to grow the PDX/TT portion to the point that we may not be able to include them with a Double Regional. But growth is a good thing. Some of the PDX/TT folks are asking about Club Racing. I had a blast at my first Solo event 2 weeks ago.

Another thing we have done to help PDX grow is to offer it free to volunteer workers. (They have to pay for TT, though.) At the last PDX/TT/Regional, the ambulance driver and the Chief of ES both got turns in the PDX. And we'll probably get both of them into Club Racing soon.

So... the missing link from PDX to Club Racing is Time Trials. Solo picked up Time Trials a few years ago, stumbled when we lost tracks, and have done a good job coordinating with the Regions to join us in Club Racing. I know it would be difficult to include PDX/TT in regions where car counts are higher, but you might encourage that it be part of a sanctioned test day.

Be creative with your scheduling. Maybe a PDX/TT mixed in with the practice/qualifying of an enduro?

Just my $0.02

Jeff

[gran racing]

It seems that about 53% of people think it is smarter to start with a rental. [/b]

One definately should not buy a racecar, then give the whole PDX thing a try to see if they like racing. I've seen a few people do this and wonder what happens if they don't like the whole racing / PDX thing?


Jim, I personally am not a big fan of the whole time trail thing (for someone whose goal is to get into road racing). When starting out, I went to a few of these events and found out that I was getting approximately 1/2 of the seat time I would have if attending a PDX / HPDE. This also means less time to have an instructor in your passenger seat. At the end of the day, it was somewhat interesting to see what my lap times were (although this can be a negative thing especially in the beginning!) but I felt like a lot of time was wasted. I believe this holds true even more so when renting a car.

There are a few negative things about getting your lap times especially as someone with relatively little track experience. The first is it can tempt you to drive beyond your limits and many times beyond. It can also be a bit demotivating to get your lap times (at least it was for me). I found myself comparing my lap times to what the racers were doing in the class I would be racing with in the same car. I wish I never did that!

(Don' get me wrong, I do think there is a place for time trials and it can be fun which this is all about after all.)

[jumbojimbo]

I agree that there are issues with adding a TT session to the end of a PDX. (Dave hit those pretty well). On the one hand the biggest is the wasted time. On the other hand, for most pure PDX people if you don't get enough track time in 3 or 4 sessions then you're not driving hard enough.

I think PDX people can get bored. Shoot, I only run 2 PDXs a year and although it is the funnest thing ever, it's a bit of a dead end without times. I come from Solo and Rallycross where I'm used to seeing times and judging myself. I miss that in the PDX. Plus PDX just doesn't transition to regional racing.

I'm not saying PDX isn't great bang for the buck for the participant though. It's a great time. The best transition I've seen so far was the cincy PXD at MO. There were several drivers there testing for the weekend race so we actually got to see several cars. It creates a different perspective to see actual cars up close and personal.

Shoot. Hijacked my own thread. Somebody else talk about renting and get us back on topic.

jim

[lateapex911]

The best transition I've seen so far was the cincy PXD at MO. There were several drivers there testing for the weekend race so we actually got to see several cars. It creates a different perspective to see actual cars up close and personal.

Shoot. Hijacked my own thread. Somebody else talk about renting and get us back on topic.

jim [/b]

Ahhhh! That's an interesting point! The organizers pulled some strings, I think, to get us racers in the PDX. I was wondering how popular, or unpopular the racers were going to be in the eyes of others. Cool that you thought it was a bonus.

[jumbojimbo]

I think that as long as the racers don't get some obvious extra perks, the rest of the PDX people will have no problem. It does mean sharing the time with more cars but that would be true even if it was 20 more PDX cars. The racers were in a seperate group. I think there might have been a little more down time pulling cars, but the experienced PDXers didn't seem to mind and the newbies didn't know the difference.

I would have to say the racers were more popular than the 2/3 of the Ferrari's who were dead freaking slow. I'm just glad I was in the instructors group and didn't have to deal with that.

Personally I think it pulls the level of excitement up a notch to see the racers running and bump into them in the paddock.

[msogren]

The best thing about rentals, is that the car is not at your shop onMon am , needing a fresh set of rings or clutch. It is a fixed cost way of racing. And a very good way to attend a school, for a fair price, in a safe car.
Get an agreement up front, make sure that you know what cost will be yours.
I have rented for about 16yrs now. I have some of the same people that I have started with. Some school cars are just for schools, stock, low tech engines.
The race cars have often set lap records, or run in the top three, and I can show the times/results.
Fast cost money, sticker hoosiers will add 600 to the rental and they are yours. to keep .
Any school, warrents Spec Ford take off tires , and they go just fine and are very consistant, very easy to drive.
The only prep change for a new renter, is they get the Quaife gearbox, not the welded.
For a guy that has run a lot and wants to get to the front, we install the welded. That is the only prep difference. I still take the engine apart when it fails the leakdown. I still run fresh hubs and axles every 10 hours or so.
The rental guys usually have a much better prep level than racers, If the racer's car pukes he calls it racing and goes home. If the rental car pukes, the renter wants his money back, as he is entiltled to.
I hate stuff that doesnt work. I over prep to avoid work at the track. I just set the pressure, torque the wheels and the driver is set. All else is done.
I get about 1000 per school at my home track, Sebring. It sounds like a lot, until you count fri, as load day/travel, sat as 10hrs, sun as 10 hr, and unload, repair/service on mon. @ 300 per day, it is not a lot of cash.
Still, I get to meet nice racers, drink a beer, have a nice steak.
FWIW I have rented a bunch of brands of cars and the VW is the most cost effective.
Mike Ogren , FL.

[Knestis]

... FWIW I have rented a bunch of brands of cars and the VW is the most cost effective.
Mike Ogren , FL.
[/b]

I'll second THAT. Ab-solutely.

K