GCR 9.3.26 - Fuel Cell in IT RX7

[Shannon1530]

I am completing the build of my ITA/IT7 1st gen, and I am in the market for a fuel cell. In reading the GCR, it states that fuel cells must be FIA-FT3 or higher. It also states that they are required, but not for IT. So, my question is this; If I install a fuel cell in this car, what regs must it meet? What are the requirements? Does it still have to meet FIA FT-3?
Thanks,
Shannon

[dickita15]

nope a cheaper cell will work in IT, I use a JAZ.

[Shannon1530]

That would be SWEET!

I have been looking at one that Summit Racing has for $189 with foam....but I read somewhere that the spacing between the inlet/outlet ports on the inner cell and the outer steel box openings was too big and the innner cell was only supported by these openings/fittings. Anyone else heard this? Anyone know of a price comparable alternative to the Summit racing cell?

[ddewhurst]

Shannon1530, with reference to Dick's response see rule GCR 9.3.26.4.

[Shannon1530]

David....thanks for the input. To me..the rule is still unclear about what I can put in my IT car. Can I use this cell?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...15&autoview=sku (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D290111&N=700+400304+4294920243+4294894966+115&autoview=sku)

[dickita15]

IMO Yes. there is no standard for cells in cars where they are optional.

[ddewhurst]

***IMO Yes. there is no standard for cells in cars where they are optional.***

Dick, I can't agree with your above statement. Please see the rule below.


9.3.26.4 Rotary Molded Cell
The use of rotary molded fuel cells not having a blader, or not contained in a metal can, is allowable in those cars that do not require the use of a fuel cell, but where they are an allowed option.


Fuel cells are an allowed option in IT cars therefore IMHJ a rotary molded cell is required (or the OEM fuel tank) if the cell is not to the FIA FT-3 or higher specifications.

Shannon, following is the information with reference to the fuel you posted. IMHJ your cell is not legal because no where in the Summit specifications is anything said about the plastic bladder being rotary molded. If you look again at the Summit fuel cells you will find that they do sell rotary molded fuel cells. You could also ask Summit what manufacturing process is used to manufacture the plastic linner in your selected cell. YOU will need documentation for the SCCA if they say it's a rotary molded plastic linner.

****Brand: Summit
Product Line: Summit Pro Sport Fuel Cells
Part Type: Fuel Cells
Capacity: 16 gallons
Fuel Cell Color: Red powdercoated
Fuel Cell Material: Steel with plastic bladder
Foam: Yes
Sending Unit Included: No

Fuel Cell, Steel with Plastic Bladder, Red Powdercoated, 16 Gallons, Each

Check to make sure this part fits your application
Fuel cells made to withstand the rigors of racing.
For added impact resistance, these Pro Sport fuel cells have a 20-gauge, red powdercoated steel outer shell for increased crash protection. Ideal for Circle Track racing, they have a pickup hose routed to the right rear corner for better fuel pickup during cornering. Other features include a D-ring, bail handle cap assembly, with a check valve vent, -8 AN outlet, and tip-over valve fittings.****



Shannon, following is a description of a steel can with a rotary molded inner liner. The inner linner is a plastic shape which has been manufactuerd in a rotary molding machine. It happens to be from the JEGS catalog. There are also rotary molded fuel cells that are a rotary molded container with no metal outer shell that are legal.

***JEGS circle track fuel cells are accepted by most sanctioning bodies where a steel outer container with an inner liner is required. Features a spot-welded steel can that is powder coated in red, d-ring style cap and an internal pickup tube designed to extract fuel from the right rear corner of the cell. The inner liner is manufactured with seamless roto-molded and cross-linked polyethylene for strength and durability.***

[Gary L]

David - The way I read the rule, a rotary molded cell is not required if the cell is contained in a metal can. You're saying otherwise, right?

[ddewhurst]

Gary, my understanding of the rotary molded cell rule is that one may have a rotary molded cell with no tin can around the rotary molded cell or one may have a tin can with a rotary molded cell inside the tin can.

[Gary L]

Gary, my understanding of the rotary molded cell rule is that one may have a rotary molded cell with no tin can around the rotary molded cell or one may have a tin can with a rotary molded cell inside the tin can. [/b] No argument, if you're limiting yourself to rotary molded cells. But IMO the rotary molded cell is not required for IT when you remove the stock tank... rather it is allowable. Specifically, I believe they're calling it out as an allowable alternative for the minimum fuel cell, as defined at the end of the first paragraph in 9.3.26 (top of page 80), to wit:


All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum. [/b]Therefore my interpretation of all this would be that in IT, SS, etc, you can have:

1 - a fuel cell that is a foam-filled fuel bladder surrounded by a metal can ("bladder" being essentially undefined)

2 - a rotary molded cell surrounded by a metal can

3 - a rotary molded cell with no metal can

4 - a cell that meets or beats all fuel cell standards known to man

Or you can keep your stock tank. :D

[ddewhurst]

***All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.***

Gary, it would be my belief that this ^ sentence is an overall statement of what a FIA FT-3 or higher fuel cell will be. There is no reason why I would believe the rule writters used this sentence to specify a cell for IT cars when within the paragraph the SS, T & IT cars have been taken out of the discussion.

[Gary L]

***All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.***

There is no reason why I would believe the rule writters used this sentence to specify a cell for IT cars when within the paragraph the SS, T & IT cars have been taken out of the discussion. [/b]You read it your way, I read it mine... reasonable men could disagree, etc.

In any case, intended or not, my money says there are dozens (if not hundreds) of IT cars running around out there with cells that are not FIA FT-X compliant and do not have verifiable rotary-molded components.

[ddewhurst]

***reasonable men could disagree,***

I'm reasonable. ;)

I just don't want someone who is first installing a fuel cell to be WRONG because of what a reasonable or a non-reasonable person posts. :D

[Greg Amy]

GCR/ITCS 9.1.3.D.10.c allows fuel cells in IT cars. It states, in part:
The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell....See GCR Section 9.3.26., for requirements.

GCR 9.3.26 states in its opening paragraph:
All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications, except for Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.

The base argument in this thread is the reading of the first sentence in GCR 9.3.26. Dewhurst is reading it to mean - paraphrased:
All cars...equipped with a safety fuel cell [must comply] with these specifications.

Patullo is reading it to mean - again, paraphrased:
All cars...[must comply] with these specifications, except for Improved Touring...

In my opinion, the purpose of this first sentence is to clarify - absent further regulations or restrictions - which vehicles must run cells, not which fuel cells must comply with the regulations. If we are to go with Dick's reading of the rules that there are no controlling legal restrictions to IT cells, then taken to the idiotic extreme it would be perfectly legal to simply bungee-strap a plastic fuel jug to the rollcage, within 12 inches of the original. This, of course, is silly.

Further, since ITCS over-rides the GCR, per the ITCS fuel cells may be installed but must conform to GCR 9.3.26, per the last sentence in that paragraph ("See GCR Section 9.3.26., for requirements.")

Thus, for Improved Touring, [a]ll safety fuel cells shall be constructed and certified in accordance with the FIA FT-3 or higher (FT-3.5, FT-5, etc.) specifications. All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum ...except as allowed in subsequent paragraphs (e.g., 9.3.26.4, "Rotary Molded Cell".)

I can see how my esteemed colleague and friend Dick got to where he is, but I honestly disagree that IT cars can run cells without compliance to 9.3.26. If a car is presented to me that does not meet these specs - absent any further supporting regulation that I've overlooked - I cannot with good conscience pass the car in technical inspection...

Greg

[Shannon1530]

WOW...I must have posted at least a somewhat intellegent question...since I am seeing some seasoned vets arguing the point. Being new to the sport, you guys can understand my frustration in trying to understand the rules. All I want to do is finish my car. I am sorry to say..but I am still at a loss....I still do not know if I can install a cell that is NOT rotary molded and NOT FIA approved into the an IT car. Any chief inpectors care to chime in.....?

[Greg Amy]

Well, Shannon, you have some very good yet dissenting opinions above. Note that my opinion above is only what I believe the rules to state, not my opinion as to the suitability of the product to the task. I've seen some very good cells that are not "certified", and would have no problem running them myself absent the controlling regulations.

Ergo, I suggest your best course of action is to:

1) Talk to an inspector local to you, particularly the one that may inspect your vehicle and issue the logbook
2) Send an email to Jeremy Thoennes at SCCA Topeka. He is the SCCA Technical Services Manager and usually has a good handle on the intent of the rules. You can find his info here:

http://www.scca.org/contactus.aspx

3) Finish building your car with the stock tank, and get out there. It's not a requirement, and in many cases the stock fuel tanks are well-placed and usually as safe as most fuel cells. you can always add it in later...

Greg

[GKR_17]

3) Finish building your car with the stock tank, and get out there. It's not a requirement, and in many cases the stock fuel tanks are well-placed and usually as safe as most fuel cells. you can always add it in later...

[/b]

I would argue that the stock tank is SAFER than many cells currently on the track. Every fuel tank fire I've seen involved a poorly installed fuel cell.

[dickita15]

Well Greg’s advice is good. You can call the local Tech Chief. While there may be disagreement on what is not legal I think we can agree what is for sure. A Fia cell is legal and a rotary molded cell is legal.
You can get a rotary molded cell in a steel can for under $200.
I agree that stock fuel systems are usually safer but old Rx7’s often have rusty tanks and the positioning on first gens in not the best. Think Pinto.

[joeg]

If you want to go the cell route (I definitely prefer good stock tanks), do go with one that will qualify you above IT minimums just in case you get the urge to run a different class someday.

Cheers.

[Shannon1530]

Hey DickITA15...where do I find the Rotary molded cell for under $200? I have can not seem to find anything in that price range. Thanks in advance....

[dickita15]

Hey DickITA15...where do I find the Rotary molded cell for under $200? I have can not seem to find anything in that price range. Thanks in advance....
[/b]

Where to buy it:
http://cmwraceparts.com/FuelSystem/fuel84.html
description of product:
http://www.jazproducts.com/auto_fuel_cells.html

[ddewhurst]

OEM gas tank

Rotary molded cell (With documentation that it's Rotary molded manufacturing process, because that's what the rule specifies.)

FIA FT-3 or higher specifications


No dissrespect guys but my last choice would be something written in my log book by a Tech guy from the CenDiv & then a Tech guy from the SoPac tells me it ain't legal at his track. :018: