Relax wheel restrictions

[ScotMac]

Hi all,

During my recent search for wheels for my ITB Fiero, an idea for a rule change occurred to me. I am sure that this is not a new idea, but i couldn't find a previous discussion of it.

The proposal is to relax the wheel restrictions in ITB and ITC. 7" wheels is small enough for all of ITA, ITB and ITC. The classes are currently correctly differentiated via the capabilities of the cars, hp-to-weight and handling, and wheel differentiation is not needed, and adds undue hardship to ITB and ITC racers attempting to buy wheels for their cars (which i can directly attest to!!).

(Prepares to be shot down!!) :D

[Knestis]

I honestly can't remember that exact question coming up before, which seems odd in hindsight.

I'm not sure that there's an overwhelming need for the change but admit that options for 6" wheels are thin - and not getting any better.

Would I replace all of my 6's if the rule changed? Probably not. Would I try 7's for sprint races? Maybe.

K

[shwah]

I personally have not had a hard time finding 6's, so I never really thought about it. But my car is 4x100 and there are TON of wheels in this bolt pattern. I would be interested to see if other applications are having a hard time finding them.

[ScotMac]

Yes, Chris, of the few racing wheel prospects i found, i was almost invariably shot down by the fact that they only came in 4x100. The 5x100 pattern of the Fiero is definitely rare, and is moving toward extinction as i type this.

[Matt Rowe]

When considering the impact of moving from ITA to ITB I ran into the same problem. Tons of 5x100 7" wheels, NO aftermarket for 6". There just isn't a demand for them. Honestly it's one of the major disadvantages I see for bumping any car down from ITA to ITB.

Now the question I would ask is how the process factors in wheel widths or if it does at all. That might be the easiet way to judge if this would really alter the balance in ITB or ITC.

[Jake]

This is an interesting one, and one is more plausible than ever. Now that 15" wheels are legal in ITB and ITC there are lots of options for 15x6.5 and 15x7 that are really cheap and restricted from ITB/ITC cars. It really seems like something that current ITB/ITC drivers should vote on and determine if they want themselves.

Other than the availability of wheels, another advantage of the larger width is better tire wear. With a 7" wide wheel utilizes the tire better. This will come as a nice cost help for ITB/ITC drivers that find themselves burning up front tires every race.

[924Guy]

I don't think it would make me slower, and yes, the supply would go up... cheaper - well, maybe not, but easier to find. I did buy a lot of 6" rims when I went from A to B - probably 4 sets at about 200 per! In neither size was I ever running lightweight aftermarket rims, just the stock rims. Forged Fuchs at about $500/set are still too much for me!

I've heard the Rustang guys in B (lots at Waterford, my local track) are running out of rims themselves... they're running 14"x6's, having a had time... sure, they can run early 924 rims, but they're not an exact match; if they could run I think it was a 14x5.5", it'd be a lot easier/cheaper.

No idea where this leaves the C guys.

Sounds like someone should write a letter and float the idea?

[Greg Amy]

Kirk, do you remember why S and A got 7", and C and B got 6"? I don't.

I suspect the reasoning was that "back then" 7"-wide wheels were typically only available for higher-horsepower, sportier "sports cars" and GT. I also remember "back then" that 6" wide wheels were The Thing for hot hatches and econoboxes...

It's the same general attitude we have now about ITR: faster cars, wider wheels.

Given today's technologies, product availability, and general "tuner" attitudes about the smaller cars, I suggest we give thought to allowing 7" wide wheels for all four classes. It would most certainly make reclassifications to and from B-to-A a whole lot easier...

Grist for the mill. - GA

[gran racing]

The issue I see with this is there are a TON of ITB/ITC drivers out there already with 6" wide rims. Allowing people to begin using would have an impact on a significant amount of people. I know some will say that we (B & C drivers) wouldn't need to buy 7" rims, but there are obvious performance benefits to using the wider rim. I know I'd feel like I needed to in order to keep up with everyone else.

For cars being moved from ITA > ITB, if they can't find rims easily, yeah it sucks. But I guess that is the price to pay for becoming more competitively classed. It would be hard to justify making the existing cars in classes pay for cars being re-adjusted. Now if the majority of existing ITB drivers desired the change, that would be a different story.

[Greg Amy]

Now if the majority of existing ITB drivers desired the change, that would be a different story.[/b]

Alternate version:



Now if the majority of existing ITB drivers desired <strike>the change</strike> to stay the same, that would be a different story.[/b]

I see your point, Dave, but I gotta laugh every time I see a comment like this!

First, getting a majority of ANYBODY to agree on ANYTHING is...well, I could understand women easier.
Second, majority of whom? Today&#39;s drivers? Former drivers? Prior champions? Those that compete at the ARRC and ITFest? Only drivers with 100% prep? Only drivers that participate in this forum? What about future drivers; do they get a voice, too? What about ITA drivers *thinking* about driving ITB; them, too? What about SSC drivers looking to move to ITB someday? What about me, as a dedicated ITA driver yet SCCA club member; do I get to "vote", too, even though it won&#39;t affect me directly?

Racing is not a democracy, and while the SCCA loves to hide under the "it&#39;s a CLUB!" philosophy, the leadership should be leaders and make changes that are in the best interests of the organization as a whole, not by proxy vote.

I&#39;m not suggesting forcing such an idea on ITB drivers, but that whole "voting" process just don&#39;t work, and should NEVER be used as a proxy for "the right thing to do". You, as a competitive ITB drivers with full sets of wheels in hand will resist a change, while the guy behind you who&#39;s looking for YYx6 wheels for his car is all gangbusters to buy cheap Spec Miata wheels. Whose interests does the Club decide to serve?

"Might" does not usually make "right", especially in motorsports. - GA

[gran racing]

You have very valid points, many of which I&#39;ve given thought to. The answer isn&#39;t real cut and dry. I also didn&#39;t meaning a vote would should take place (although it should go out for member input) as that would only yield a very small sampling of what people&#39;s opinions are.

What are the cars and wheels in which 14" x 6" rims are very hard to come by? As previously said, 4 x 100 are easy and very inexpensive to get. Based on what has been said here, 5 x 100 fit into the very difficult category. How many cars use these rims? Are there any sources even if that means steel wheels such as Diamond racing wheels?

[Gary L]

Hah! Try 5x108mm in a 15x6" if you want hard-to-find, assuming you&#39;re looking for something that weighs less than 16 or 18 pounds. And unlike the cars that came on 13 or 14 inch wheels, we don&#39;t even have the latitude of looking for an alternate diameter!

[Greg Krom]

5x100 is the same bolt pattern as the Dodge Neon and several smaller GM vehicles. There are tons of used OEM 14x6 and 15x6 alloy wheels out there. These wheels should have similar offset to the Fiero. Check out www.neons.org/forums used wheels pop up for sale nearly every day on there.

New aftermarket 14" wheels in that bolt pattern are becoming increasingly difficult to find. There&#39;s a bunch of aftermarket options available in 15", but almost all of them are at least 6.5" wide.

[Knestis]

>> Kirk, do you remember why S and A got 7", and C and B got 6"? I don&#39;t.

LOL - because when the rules got written, all of the eligible ITB and ITC cars came with 155-13 or 165-13 tires, on wheels that were 5" wide at the most. Remember that it was the &#39;80s but we were racing cars that were 5-15 years old in IT.

Nobody then could even conceive of putting a 7" wheel on a car like that. The Renault Cup spec Momo was 13x6" and looked HUGE. I think the stock steel wheels were 4.5" wide. A 14x7 wheel (Oooooh, a "plus one" package - waaay cool, duuuude!) was a biggie...

K

[Matt Rowe]

Greg, it&#39;s a bit of a stretch to say 14 x 6 wheels pop up for sale on the neon forums almost everyday. They do show up from time to time, but they aren&#39;t cheap because they are typically hard to get a hold of. Seems everyone (including me) likes to use them to mount snow tires. After a month of trying to get a set stock 14 x 6 for less than the cost of an aftermarket 15 x 7&#39;s I gave up. And there is a huge difference in the availability of 15 x 6 vs 14 x 6 in the OEM and aftermarket. They just don&#39;t make 15 x 6&#39;s. For those that have to run 15&#39;s due to caliper clearance issues the chance of getting 15 x 6&#39;s is not good, and what you can find is typically a heavy OEM piece.

I certainly understand the concern of the ITB/ITC drivers though who may feel that they would suddenly need to upgrade every wheel they have but I&#39;m not entirely sure I agree. Certainly a heavy ITB car might benefit from a wider wheel but I have seen people opt for a smaller width tire than they can make fit after they do some back to back testing. They just don&#39;t work the tire hard enough to justify spinning the extra weight and actually lose tire temp.

It appears to come down to balancing the expense of the perceived need of the current ITB/ITC drivers to upgrade versus the expense/difficulty in find 6" wheels for anyone new to the class that doesn&#39;t run a 4 x 100 pattern.

[shwah]

Another note to 5x100 guys. All of the VR6 and 1.8t Golfs, Jettas, Beetles, TTs (until the current 5th generation chassis) used 5x100. The 95-98 Jettas and Golfs used a 15x6 wheel (I think, now watch it be 6.5...) if they had the 6.

[Sandro]

If ITB is going to be able to run 7" might as well allow the cars that came with 14&#39;s to run 13&#39;s so I can finally use those 13x7 Panasports that are taking space in the garage :bash_1_:

[Ron]

Please don&#39;t change the rule. I run an ITB Mustang, a very heavy car that would benifit from the change, but I just ordered more 6 x 15 by 4.25 rims from spinwerkes at about $250 a shot. They can make any bolt pattern you want and come in at 13 pounds. That now gets me to 12 rims and a change is going to cost me money. Just to prove that light weight rims help, at Roebling Road we were able to repeat a 3 tenths of a second lap time diference when we went from the light weight rims to a 20 pound steel rim. We ran back to back testing for an entire test day. I don&#39;t know what a wider wheel will gain but we will have to test to find out.
It is just like the tubing size change for cages. There was a change back in 04/05 we took advantage of that that only required bars had to be .095 x 1.75 etc... Well 2 years later they change them again, we could have built a cage just as strong just lighter ( we are still 50 pounds over). I really liked it when the rules were constant, this moving target a.k.a. "prod stuff" is making me crazy. We are not there yet but I agree with Knestis, and Amy are we not starting to slip down hill?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Please don&#39;t change the rule. I run an ITB Mustang, a very heavy car that would benifit from the change, but I just ordered more 6 x 15 by 4.25 rims from spinwerkes at about $250 a shot. They can make any bolt pattern you want and come in at 13 pounds. That now gets me to 12 rims and a change is going to cost me money. Just to prove that light weight rims help, at Roebling Road we were able to repeat a 3 tenths of a second lap time diference when we went from the light weight rims to a 20 pound steel rim. We ran back to back testing for an entire test day. I don&#39;t know what a wider wheel will gain but we will have to test to find out.
It is just like the tubing size change for cages. There was a change back in 04/05 we took advantage of that that only required bars had to be .095 x 1.75 etc... Well 2 years later they change them again, we could have built a cage just as strong just lighter ( we are still 50 pounds over). I really liked it when the rules were constant, this moving target a.k.a. "prod stuff" is making me crazy. We are not there yet but I agree with Knestis, and Amy are we not starting to slip down hill? [/b]

Understand that this is just a post form a singular gentleman. NOT something that is even remotely on the radar of the CRB.

Secondly, the cage rules are category wide and have nothing to do with IT specifically - or any recommendation that came from the ITAC.

[Stan]

Andy, if you don&#39;t pull that damned bug off your sig line, I&#39;m going to put something else on my radar screen. :D

[Dave Ebersole]

Well, I would ertainly vote "NO" for this, purely from self-interest of course. I don&#39;t think I could fit 7&#39;s on the rear of my &#39;02, and certainly don&#39;t have the fender clearance to take advantage of wider rubber, but others in my class probably could, and the discussion of moving certain A cars to B in conjunction with such a change would throw off the cometitive balance that currently exists in B..... unless you want to allow certain cars to add flares also..... or rename us Prod Lite.

[Bill Miller]

5x100 is the same bolt pattern as the Dodge Neon and several smaller GM vehicles. There are tons of used OEM 14x6 and 15x6 alloy wheels out there. These wheels should have similar offset to the Fiero. Check out www.neons.org/forums used wheels pop up for sale nearly every day on there.

New aftermarket 14" wheels in that bolt pattern are becoming increasingly difficult to find. There&#39;s a bunch of aftermarket options available in 15", but almost all of them are at least 6.5" wide.
[/b]

Greg,

Most of the examples I have seen (haven&#39;t looked at the specific cars in question, but more of a general observation) you have significantly different offsets between FWD and RWD cars. The one that I&#39;m pretty familiar with are BBS wheels for a VW vs the ones for a BMW. 13x6xet33 for the VW and 13x6xet13 for the BMW. That&#39;s a 2cm difference in offset.

[Ron]

Please don&#39;t think I was complaining about the board, I think they have a very hard job and the I don&#39;t want it. I was just pointing how the rules we very consistent for IT for years. I just liked the fact that you could pick a car develop it and feel safe that the rules would be the same thats all. Back to rims ,I think that spinwerkes can do almost any offset

[Andy Bettencourt]

Greg,

Most of the examples I have seen (haven&#39;t looked at the specific cars in question, but more of a general observation) you have significantly different offsets between FWD and RWD cars. The one that I&#39;m pretty familiar with are BBS wheels for a VW vs the ones for a BMW. 13x6xet33 for the VW and 13x6xet13 for the BMW. That&#39;s a 2cm difference in offset. [/b]

Fiero&#39;s use a very FWD-like offset. Remember, this car is not a traditional RWDer. Think of the layout. Engine and drive wheels at the same end. One just pushes instead of pulls. Greg is 100% correct.

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I was going off of what I have seen. IIRC, the offset for my old ITA AW11 MR2 was a &#39;traditional&#39; RWD offset. If the Fiero uses a FWD offset, there are probably more options out there for it.

[ScotMac]

Thank you everyone for weighing in on the topic...i think the discussion is good and civilized so far.

Few issues that have been brought up :

1. Offsets: Yes, alot of the stock stuff is not appropriate for a particular car, in terms of offset. I have only found *one* stock wheel that work for the front of a 88 fiero. That is exactly my point: opening it up to 7" rims means much more supply, especially for the aftermarket lightweight stuff, and then you are more likely to find the correct offset.

2. Weight: The stock stuff is often not suitable for racing, because of weight.

3. Future: There will always be short terms problems for people when change is made (previously or just bought 6" wheels), but we need to think about what is best for the future of all ITers, as GregA mentioned. ie, current, new, and future racers. The 6" restriction will make it more and more difficult for ITB and ITC racers to get the correct wheels to race, and will thus discourage people to race the exact two classes that we need to built up right now. I strongly believe the class differentiation via handling and hp-to-weight is enough.

4. SpinWerks: Yes, i found spinwerks, and yes, they do make a suitable rim for me in a 14x6 (5x100), but they are the ONLY aftermarket wheel i could find under $400/wheel (kodiak/bogart are greater than $400 wheel). And they are marginal, for the price ($210/wheel), due to the weight (11.5lbs/wheel).

Cheers, -Scot :D