Trying to understand the advantages of sticker tires vs. scuffs

[gran racing]

In a complete contrast to my previous thread about how many heat cycles Hoosiers can last, I’m trying to understand which would be the optimum tires with only performance in mind – sticker tires or scuffs.

When watching various pro races, I’ve seen varying strategies regarding the use of sticker tires versus scuffs. What I’m trying to determine is in a big race situation where someone is willing to sacrifice the longevity of the tire (in future races the tires would be used), which is ideal. I’ve also talked with a few tire vendors, but have heard somewhat conflicting information. From what I understand, scuffed tires will come in faster than sticker tires. I’ve also heard that the decision is track dependant. O.k. So I’m curious about Road Atlanta. :)

What are the advantages of scuffs and when are they ideal?

What are the advantages of sticker tires and when are they ideal?

[Rabbit07]

I have found this both through personal experience and with other drivers that I have worked with;

Hoosiers are the fastest that they will every be on about the 2nd or 3rd lap. After that they are not quite a fast. The issue that I have found is that if you try to run stickers for longer than about 10 laps they seem to fall off quickly and don't come back until you let them sit. I found this primarily on FWD. If you scuff them in they seem much more consistant through the heat cycles to follow. I personally will qualify on stickers that I would race on later in the weekend. That way I get the best possible tire for qualifing. The 2nd and 3rd laps better be flyers though.

[JohnRW]

What are the advantages of scuffs and when are they ideal? [/b]

The stickers on sticker tires are really slippery until you scrub them off. It's worse on light cars...it might take you half a lap to get them all peeled off, which makes those pace-lap "scrubbies" scary sometimes. Scuffs don't have to deal with this.


What are the advantages of sticker tires and when are they ideal?[/b]

Having stickers on your tires intimidates the competition, and makes them think that you have a bottomless pit of $$$ and will go to any expense to beat them.

I have often considered starting a business just selling fake 'tire stickers' for people to put on their old, worn-out rubber. Preliminary designs were done, tire vendors included "Goodstone" and "Hoosierhama". Just waiting to get a working color print cartridge for my printer.

[ddewhurst]

***Having stickers on your tires intimidates the competition, and makes them think that you have a bottomless pit of $$$ and will go to any expense to beat them.***

& there are pole people who go out after taking the stickers/decals off & no one has a clue. :o That really makes the watchers wonder.

[seckerich]

The stickers on sticker tires are really slippery until you scrub them off. It's worse on light cars...it might take you half a lap to get them all peeled off, which makes those pace-lap "scrubbies" scary sometimes. Scuffs don't have to deal with this.
Having stickers on your tires intimidates the competition, and makes them think that you have a bottomless pit of $$$ and will go to any expense to beat them.

I have often considered starting a business just selling fake 'tire stickers' for people to put on their old, worn-out rubber. Preliminary designs were done, tire vendors included "Goodstone" and "Hoosierhama". Just waiting to get a working color print cartridge for my printer.
[/b]
Now thats funny--I don't care who you are!! :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

The difference is that 'scrubs' are stickier. When you properly scrub a set in, you bring them up to temp and then shut them down. Pull them off, let them 'cure'. 24 hours is nice.

We have a durometer. A properly scuffed set is actually softer than a new set, and will last more heat cycles before they lose grip.

*Data from Goodyear GC-CS/RS but should apply universally

[gran racing]

Why do so many pro teams use sticker tires then? It certainly can't be because it wouldn't be within their budget or abilities to scrub tires in.

Also, for major events like the ARRC and Runoffs, why is there such a demand for sticker tires if having scrubs would yield faster times? Is it simply for a matter of convience of getting them at the track, or not having enough rims to have multiple scrubed tires on rims? Or if that's the case, why don't more people buy their tires before, scub them in, then unmount them for use again during a big weekend.

I was also looking at NASCAR websites and they talked about how sticker tires can be better for some tracks. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find out much more details about it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

You are talking about what is the best thing to do, plus what people CAN do. I go out on new tires when I can. I rarely have the chance to cycle a set properly - and when I say that, it is to bring them up to temp, then STOP. Not run 1 full session and then pull them. Like 3 laps during the last session of a test day.

Stickers (I pull the stickers off) are fast, trust me, but they aren't the BEST from my experience. They are just WAY BETTER than what people just took off.

[tnord]

i concur with Andy.

[77ITA]

Personal opinion on the subject matter; Racing tires are a lot less mythological than some people seem to think.

I put them on the car, run the hell out of them, and then get a new set when the grip starts falling off. I've tried following the careful and delicate instructions (such as the ones on Hoosier's website), yet I can never recall having a set of tires seem to last longer in terms of grip.

The only method I follow to lengthen the life would be rotation, which is important on a front-heavy FWD car. I also try not to go out on stickers for a race because the first hot lap or two is always a little slippery.

Keep in mind, I'm no expert. I would have to say it's always best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations... I just don't realistically have time to mess with all that.

[924Guy]

One more detail of scrubbing in that I overlooked with my first set of R6's this year - when scrubbing in, you're supposed to run them from 3-5psi higher than normal. You should also pull them completely off the car and let them sit in the shade, ideally; if you don't have the luxury of taking the tires off, and have to run them next session, at least put the car up in the air and get the weight off them while they cool. Apparently the ideal "downtime" after scrubbing-in would be a week, though 24hrs is OK...

[bldn10]

Gee, I thought this was well-settled. I believe that Hoosier (and perhaps other tire makers) absolutely recommend that DOT radial race tires be heat cycled before racing them. Apparently they need to be brought up to temp to allow the rubber or whatever and plies to cure and set up. They say that you will get more quality time out of them if you do this. Many drivers at the ARRC and elsewhere use the test/practice day to heat cycle new tires. Of course, sometimes you just don't have time to do it. In that case I will try to get my new tires mounted late Fri./early Sat., make a few qualifying laps on them (taking advantage of the sweet time), and then let them set until Sun.



Most of what you see of racers putting on stickers is on TV and they are most of the time on slicks - not DOT radials. I think it is a different thing altogether.



After struggling to get that one last session out of some old tires, what a dream a new set is! :eclipsee_steering: One of the real joys in racing. Almost worth $900.

[lateapex911]

Good point, Bill. NASCAR tires, F1 tires, even Rolex Cup tires are different. Hoosier reps Appalacian Tires (Rodney) has been great explaining the best practice...for Hoosiers. He says they will produce the fastest laps for the highest number of heat cycles if you (as described above) get them up to temp (3 laps) then OFF the car, in a cold dark basement sealed in bags for a week.

24 hours is the minimum to get the effect, but it's a curve, and longer is better. Series like NASCAR and F1 generally use a set up in one session, so heat cycling isn't needed. But sometimes they find that scuffs are faster for the first few laps. That can make a difference at a track where track position means everything.

But again, we're no NASCAR.

And rarely do our rear wheel drive cars wear out the tires...they just go away due to heat cycling (Endurance racing is obviously different)

[MMiskoe]

One advantage of scuffs is that you know they are round, balanced & hold air. Sucks getting out in a race and finding something a-miss w/ the balance job you did. I've seen new tires w/ a defect that go flat just about the time the pace car comes off the track. Not personal experience, but spoken w/ people that have had it happen. Same could be said for valve stems.

[tnord]

especially those pretty blue valve stems for the kosei's, they leak fairly often because the tire guys have a hard time getting them to seal. i just replaced all mine with shorty rubber ones (no jokes please).