Shortcutting the course to avoid an "incident"

[jjjanos]

So, it's the first lap at VIR in a field of close to 90 cars. I am way 'cause I'm slow.

As I come up to Oak Tree, almost the entire field has come to a near stop - we're talking inching along like an expressway at 5PM on Friday before a holiday. Reason? Almost complete track blockage at the exit of Oak Tree.

Soooo the way I see it, all those cars in front of me are now part of the incident... If they were going that slow on their own, they would merit a waving yellow. So I figure, I'm just gonna go dirt tracking and lop off that section of the course because there's probably 150+ yards of complete track blockage to my front.

Then I realize that I don't want to have a Come to Jesus Talk with the Stewards and really don't want to have my race video become an "I was third!" moment and I wait in turn like a commuter heading to the beach.

Soooo the question I have is....

What is "the incident"?
Were all of those cars part of the incident since many of them had come to a complete stop?
Am I allowed to leave the asphalt to go around them or any car part of the "incident"?
Just how far on the grass can I drive before I'm going to be seen in Fasttrack?

[itracer]

I see a couple things here. I am not quoting the GCR, but you cannot gain an advantage from an off track excursion. The fact that you say the cars in front of you were moving (albeit slowly), then any off track would be considered a competitive advantage. First and foremost, you need (and I as a Steward in training) to think: “is what I am about to do safe?” Really this is for a $20 piece of wood.

Also, if there was any yellow flag condition due to the course blockage, you might find yourself in that conversation you didn’t want.

Pending the flag conditions and any observer reports and video, I think any off road activities would not be found to be appropriate.

Just my opinion, and I only get one vote in a SOM meeting.




As I come up to Oak Tree, almost the entire field has come to a near stop - we're talking inching along like an expressway at 5PM on Friday before a holiday. Reason? Almost complete track blockage at the exit of Oak Tree.

Soooo the way I see it, all those cars in front of me are now part of the incident... If they were going that slow on their own, they would merit a waving yellow. So I figure, I'm just gonna go dirt tracking and lop off that section of the course because there's probably 150+ yards of complete track blockage to my front.
[/b]

Also, Timing might be instructed to remove that lap due to the short cut. (it happens at NHIS frequently).

[924Guy]

I'm no steward in training, but I would think that the only reason you could argue that an off-track excursion was warranted is if it is safer than staying on-track - namely, that it is impossible to come to a controlled stop on-track. Doesn't sound like that would be the case in this instance; when a guy spins right in front of you, OTOH, going off-track may be the best and safest option to avoid metal-to-metal.

But that's just my guess...

[JLawton]

Here is what I would do, right or wrong.

I wouldn't lop off the turn and cut across the grass. If there were no yellows, I would head to the outside, trying to keep at least two wheels on the pavement and go around everyone on the outside....Only if there wasn't a yellow. But I'm sure everyone else will be thinking the same thing so it may get hairy!!

[jjjanos]

OK... the front end story has confused the issue.

Hypothetical:

You are heading into turn X at Y. The flag station is violently waving the yellow flag. You see 100% or near track blockage. There are 3 rows of cars stopped in front of you because they can't go forward and remain on the asphalt.

Are they now part of the incident?
Does it matter whether they are stopped or moving slower than traffic on way to the beach?
Do you just stop and wait for the track to clear or do you leave the racing surface to go around the incident?
Do you wait for everybody to slowly file past the incident on the grass or do you cut the queue?

How slow does the car in front of you need to be going before he is considered part of the incident that sparked the yellow?

[John Herman]

1) You're supposed to be going slow through an incident anyways.
2) No passing is allowed from the yellow flag to past the incident.
Thus, if you know you're coming into a yellow flag situation (can you see the flag or just even suspect it) and decide the grass route, at what point do you decide to force your way back onto the racing surface? I'm sure driving through/past ALL the "incident" cars while in the grass would likely get the corner workers PISSED off as I would construe it as you not having your car under control and driving safely through a yellow flag area. Suppose, you decide to dive back onto the track just prior to the "real" incident? If past the yellows but prior to the incident, at that point you are in the yellow flag area, and have likely passed cars which are driving slowly through the incident :018: . If you decide to force your way back onto the track prior to the yellow flag, you have now gained an advantage by leaving the racing surface :018: . Kind of like coming up to a construction zone where you have to merge. However, as a fellow racer, I'm not going to be generous and stop and let you in in front of me. Finally, if you're that far back because of your true speed potential, what good is it going to do to banzi past all those people? They're likely going to pass you pretty easily a lap or two later. Finally, one thing I try to think about in such situations, do I want to be the driver who accidentally runs over a corner worker or into a tow truck and severly hurts or kills someone? When cars leave the racing surface, all sorts of unintentional things can happen. I know I would not want to make the call to someone's husband, wife, or significant other, "Gee, I'm sorry I ran over your girlfriend, but you know, I thought it was okay by the rules and I was going to finish on the podium.....". All that because of the potential to win a $20 trophy? Short answer, play it safe pick your way through like everyone else.

[ScotMac]

I think one of the key points is one that was alluded to earlier, but not made clear. Why are you trying to gain an advantage, due to an incident, that you could not get while racing on green (you said you were slow)?

You can't assume anyone in front is part of the incident just because of speed. They are only part of the incident if they are directly disabled due to the incident, not because the track is blocked. Anyone else is racing w/ you, and you passing them, on the track or off, is passing on yellow.

[jjjanos]

1) You're supposed to be going slow through an incident anyways.
2) No passing is allowed from the yellow flag to past the incident.
Thus, if you know you're coming into a yellow flag situation (can you see the flag or just even suspect it) and decide the grass route, at what point do you decide to force your way back onto the racing surface? I'm sure driving through/past ALL the "incident" cars while in the grass would likely get the corner workers PISSED off as I would construe it as you not having your car under control and driving safely through a yellow flag area. Suppose, you decide to dive back onto the track just prior to the "real" incident? If past the yellows but prior to the incident, at that point you are in the yellow flag area, and have likely passed cars which are driving slowly through the incident :018: . If you decide to force your way back onto the track prior to the yellow flag, you have now gained an advantage by leaving the racing surface :018: . Kind of like coming up to a construction zone where you have to merge. However, as a fellow racer, I'm not going to be generous and stop and let you in in front of me. Finally, if you're that far back because of your true speed potential, what good is it going to do to banzi past all those people? They're likely going to pass you pretty easily a lap or two later. Finally, one thing I try to think about in such situations, do I want to be the driver who accidentally runs over a corner worker or into a tow truck and severly hurts or kills someone? When cars leave the racing surface, all sorts of unintentional things can happen. I know I would not want to make the call to someone's husband, wife, or significant other, "Gee, I'm sorry I ran over your girlfriend, but you know, I thought it was okay by the rules and I was going to finish on the podium.....". All that because of the potential to win a $20 trophy? Short answer, play it safe pick your way through like everyone else.[/b]

1. There is a difference between hitting the grass at race speed at doing it at aa reasonable speed.
2. re: repassing - I'm slow. I'm not that slow. I've been held up by slower cars for an entire race simply because I didn't qualify well and I didn't have the legs to keep up down the straights. Just because a car is faster than you doesn't mean he can pass you.


You can't assume anyone in front is part of the incident just because of speed. They are only part of the incident if they are directly disabled due to the incident, not because the track is blocked. Anyone else is racing w/ you, and you passing them, on the track or off, is passing on yellow.[/b]
3. I take it then that you would, under no circumstances, move around any car that is stopped in a yellow flag zone or an obviously disabled, but EXTREMELY slow moving car? 'cause from where I sit, the car crawling along at 5 MPH in the 60MPH zone still is part of the incident.

And technically, under the GCR, we can't even go around cars that clearly aren't going anywhere under their own power - wave bys are only allowed under a FCY.

I'm trying to get a definition of which cars are part of "emergency area." Is it only where the car with the caved in door is sitting? Does it include the 5MPH-car that is dragging the back one-half of his car? Does it include the 100% OK car that picked the wrong way through the incident and needed to bring his car to a complete stop to avoid the car with the caved-in door? Is it going onto the grass to avoid the 100% OK-but-stopped-cars that says this is a no-no and going around the 100%-OK-but-stopped-cars while on the pavement A-OK? (Cause I can tell you that, while flagging, I've seen two-cars go into an "emergency area" side-by-side and observed the leading car come to a stop to avoid the wrecked car.)

[Matt Rowe]

This is only my opinion and may sound a little harsh but as someone who spends at least as much time stewarding and flagging as I do in the driver seat this type of move won't earn you any friends, whether they are flaggers, officials or drivers.

I don't think the GCR can be any clearer than section 6.11.2:

STANDING YELLOW -- Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past emergency area.

And that emphasis on no passing is not added, it is part of the GCR. No reference to on course or of course, no discussion on what cars are and are not part of the incident. As I said I wouldn't have have thought that section could be more plain, but yet there's more . . .

6.8.3. Off-Course Excursions
The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, whenever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling re-entry.

So no matter how you look at you won't have a leg to stand on if you get called to the tower.

Keep in mind that the flaggers out on station rely on drivers obeying yellow flags. These are the people that are the first responders when you need help or at least are out there trying to help clear the incident and get everyone back to green flag racing. If the workers feel the flags aren't being obeyed they have little choice but to stand there in the relative safety of the station and wait. Do you really want to waste laps under double yellows because the workers don't trust you enough to go trackside? Or worse yet are you willing to hit one while they are responding because no one expected some bonehead to leave the pavement and drive around the incident just for a better shot at a $20 trophy?

Honestly it just sounds like selfishness to me. The rest of the field is following the rules and making the way through the scene and someone else decides the rules don't apply to them.

[dickita15]

While the original scenario as described does not sound like a course of action I would like to try to defend before the stewards, no one is really answering the question about what cars are part of the incident. Of course you can pass under a yellow, you can pass the car that has spun. Now if a car spun and another stops nose to nose with it can you pass that one? I know I have. The question of reasonableness is raised when the number of cars stopped for the incident increases. I believe if your action were the safest and most reasonable to avoid the incident you would most likely be fine. The original scenario does pass this test however.




6.8.3. Off-Course Excursions
The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion.

Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, whenever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling re-entry.

[/b]
Only the first sentence applies to most tracks. Including the second part confuses the issue.

[JLawton]

Sorry, misunderstood the details. I would not try to get around any cars even if it meant coming to a stop and taking a few seconds to sort out what's going on and who's involved.

[spnkzss]

So, it's the first lap at VIR in a field of close to 90 cars. I am way 'cause I'm slow.

As I come up to Oak Tree, almost the entire field has come to a near stop - we're talking inching along like an expressway at 5PM on Friday before a holiday. Reason? Almost complete track blockage at the exit of Oak Tree.

Soooo the way I see it, all those cars in front of me are now part of the incident... If they were going that slow on their own, they would merit a waving yellow. So I figure, I'm just gonna go dirt tracking and lop off that section of the course because there's probably 150+ yards of complete track blockage to my front.

Then I realize that I don't want to have a Come to Jesus Talk with the Stewards and really don't want to have my race video become an "I was third!" moment and I wait in turn like a commuter heading to the beach.

Soooo the question I have is....

What is "the incident"?
Were all of those cars part of the incident since many of them had come to a complete stop?
Am I allowed to leave the asphalt to go around them or any car part of the "incident"?
Just how far on the grass can I drive before I'm going to be seen in Fasttrack?
[/b]

The incident in questino was DEFINITLY interesting. I've never come to a complete stop before ON TRACK without a Red flag.

I think the big thing here is, we didn't know 100% what was gong on. THere may have been a car on it's roof on the othe rside of the tree or whatever (I know a little extreme), but my point is you cut inside the corner across the grass, you may have hit a worker running to help. I'm sure you could agree that is worst case, but we (SCCA) write rules based on worst case for a reason.

TIFWIW

[dickita15]

Sorry, misunderstood the details. I would not try to get around any cars even if it meant coming to a stop and taking a few seconds to sort out what's going on and who's involved.
[/b]
So if Joe spun and Greg came to a dead stop to avoid hitting him you would stop to allow Greg to get it together? :P

[JLawton]

So if Joe spun and Greg came to a dead stop to avoid hitting him you would stop to allow Greg to get it together? :P
[/b]


With Joe an my history, I would end up hitting Joe!! <_<


Plus, Joe would NEVER be in front of Greg unless he was lapping him or if Greg lost 3rd gear!! ;)

[joeg]

This is silly.

The 89 cars are not all part of the incident.

You really can only do what the undamaged mobile folks in front of you do. Procceeding to the grass on your own to pass a bunch of slow undamaged traffic under a yellow is passing under yellow.

Cheers.

[AntonioGG]

A good example from which there is lots of video is what happened between T2 and T3 at Laguna Seca in the SM race on May 5-6. The track was partially blocked, guys were stuck behind spun or damaged cars. The guys that stopped got hit hard from the back. The rest (including myself) had to make a quick decision...do I stop to sort it out or find a way out of the mess? Most people avoided the contact, honestly for me it was about trying to decide whether I could stop before I hit someone or maintain control and use the steering wheel. I didn&#39;t have to go in the dirt but many people did. The right side was mostly clear, the left side was blocked. So what happens is the guys on the left side got stuck, the guys on the right kept going.

I was looking forward to the replies after seeing the first post, but I&#39;m a little disappointed in seeing absolutisms (is that a word?) about not passing, when reality is much different as far as having to decide what to do. I&#39;m not sure if the original post was a situation similar to mine, or if things were under more control so as to be able to decide that you could stop easily.

[NutDriverRighty]

As someone who does F&C as well as driving, I have to agree with Antonio&#39;s comments about people being too concrete. I believe that maintaining car control and avoiding making the incident worse is a prime consideration. If I&#39;m in the corner station and there is a multi-car incident with partial track blockage and the field bunched behind it looking for a way through and a guy goes through the grass due to being unable to safely stop or maintain his line on the surface, I&#39;m (generally) ok with that. Maybe there is oil, anti-freeze, etc. on the track that severely impedes adhesion. Maybe the incident is just after a blind corner where you don&#39;t have the ability to get stopped in time and the station behind isn&#39;t backing up the yellow at the incident. If there is greater than 50% track blockage and (seemingly) disabled cars, I think there will be strong consideration of a red flag from race control.
As a corner worker, you should stay in the station until you know you&#39;re reasonably safe. We&#39;ve seen standing yellows, waving yellows, and even red flags get ignored. We know the risks of what we do. We just ask that you watch for flags, heed the flags, use your best judgement, and know that if it is a choice between risking both of our a$$es and your car, let us know and we&#39;ll BUY you a $20 trophy!!

Scott Frankli
www.NutDriver.org
ITA/7 and SPU
F&C

[jjjanos]

I was looking forward to the replies after seeing the first post, but I&#39;m a little disappointed in seeing absolutisms (is that a word?) about not passing[/b]

Your pass under the yellow is forgiven. As your penance, read the GCR 3 times.

Oh wait, that would be an absolution about not passing.

Never mind.

The original incident simply raised the question in my mind of who gets included in the emergency zone. Where I was, it was very easy to come to a controlled stop on the course and even in my addled brain, cutting a quarter mile of the course to avoid the incident wasn&#39;t something I would do.

[ScotMac]

Your pass under the yellow is forgiven. As your penance, read the GCR 3 times.

Oh wait, that would be an absolution about not passing.

Never mind.

The original incident simply raised the question in my mind of who gets included in the emergency zone. Where I was, it was very easy to come to a controlled stop on the course and even in my addled brain, cutting a quarter mile of the course to avoid the incident wasn&#39;t something I would do.
[/b]

Exactly, the original question was about whether you could include cars in the incident or not just because they are waiting for the track to clear, not about controlling your stop, and hence my (and many others) absolutist response of "you can not".

Yes, obviously it is different if you are making a split second decision whether you can stop to avoid the accident or instead need to go around it, to avoid plowing into cars.

[JLawton]

Actually, the original question was about short cutting the course not about avoiding an incident................

I think we can give a concrete answer to that...............

[John Herman]

In the end, we basically have a finite number of rules which need to be applied to an infinite number of senarios. What gets to be stupid about threads like this is the scenario keeps changing in order to suite someones interpretation they want to use. Look, if someone is pointed the wrong way, hood buckled up, flames coming out of the car, then yes they are part of the incident (duh). A major pileup has just happened, and you and another car are approaching it. You are the following car. Car number one slows down significantly because he is trying to pick his way through the carnage. Because in your opinion he "over slowed", does not give you authorization to go by him in the grass (in my opinion). But look, there are a million different situations and what-ifs in cases like this. In the end, PLEASE, do what you think is SAFEST, and you feel in your heart and mind was the best option in that situation. Then if you are questioned, state your case and take your lumps. If you still feel what you did was 100% the right thing, then appeal any penalties to the top of the appeal process. If you think what you are about to do will get you a talking to either by the steward or another driver and this concerns you, then you&#39;re probably not making the right decision are you? Personally, though VERY hard to do sometimes, trying to figure out how to gain a competitive advantage by using yellow flags, disabled cars and "grey areas" of the rules should NOT enter into the discision process. Happy racing.