Best first IT car?

[Shannon1530]

I am looking to get into IT racing next year. I have been looking at a 79 RX7 and and 85 GTI. I have heard the pros and the cons for using either of these cars. What do you guys/gals think?

What is the best car for a first time racer?

I have heard that parts for the 1st gen RX7's are starting to get rare, and the same is starting to happen with the VW's. I thought about a Miata, but some guys are spending some serious money to get their miata's to go fast. I want something I can race, have some fun, and not spend my kids college fund.

Please advise....and thanks.

[Greg Amy]

What is the best car for a first time racer? [/b]
A rented one.

[flaboy]

I agree with Greg. You need to see if you are going to be able to afford racing and if it's really what you want. The kind of car is up to you.I would rent both cars you are looking at several times and see which one you prefer.

But i would rent something to find out if you like it.


Tim

[BlueStreak]

Regarding your first road race car, make sure you follow the "somebody else" rules:
#1 - make sure "somebody else" built it
#2 - make sure you don't mind watching "somebody else" (it might not be your fault) push it off a cliff 15 seconds into your road racing career
#3 - make sure "somebody else" might want to buy the car or whatever is left when you are through with it (to ensure you recover SOMETHING in the event you have to part with the car in the future)

Don't anguish over the expense of the car too much. The one time up front expense of the vehicle purchase is the least expensive part of racing.

One other thing...If lots of guys who have been there and done that tell you renting is the smart way to start, give renting serious consideration.


BTW - Renting is a smart way to start.

[mcgyverit]

Renting is a good idea, maybe get a rental for a PDX type thing might be cheaper since it isnt door to door so to speak.

that being said, between the 2 that you listed reliability and parts availability would be key for me. I have driven an RX7 and they are a blast for handling and driving and there are plenty of go fast stuff done for them. I have no experience with the GTI other than chasing them down on the track, so my guess is they are pretty good as well.

the problem with the miata (like there is one) is popularity=higher initial cost. if i had to do it over again i would definately look at an ITA Miata.

How familiar are you with both models? Do you like fwd or rwd cars?

[Shannon1530]

I found a running 90 miata here in town for $900. If I were to take the $3500 I had set aside for a "prepared car" and buy the miata...could I get it on the track for the other $2400?

[cherokee]

An already built, RELIABLE car. At your school you will be so busy you will have a hard time finding the time to put gas in the car.

Pass on the Miata and buy a built car that has a good history. There are plenty of people on this board that can help you out in looking at a car no matter where it is in the country. I bought my first car for $4000 and did NOTHING to it for the first two years other then put tires on it and change the oil. I did not even change the pads.

[RSTPerformance]

Depends if you can work on the car yourself or not....

For me:

I would get a VW simply because I know how a VW/Audi works and can/would be able to work on it to fix it when it does break. I know absolutely nothing about the RX-7 thus I would keep away from it.

I do however like the RWD over FWD, but the FWD might be a safer easier car to get your feet wet in. I think FWD is as hard as RWD to go fast, but at moderate speeds and in the wet FWD is definatly easier to drive and more forgiving when you make a mistake.

The miata- In the long run probably cheeper to maintain and race than both the VW or the RX-7 but it will certainly cost you more to build in the begining to get it up to speed as compaired to buying one of the several VW or RX7 for sale that are well sorted.

Renting:

That is a tough call. While I think that it would be fun to run a well built and preped car it can cost you over $1,000 for the weekend, and lets face it... If your in the best prepped miata or a VW you are not going to go any faster on your first time on the track. It is like buying brand new tires for your first event, sorta pointless. For me taking that $1000 and investing it into a car you at least hopefully have something at the end of the weekend to take home. However if you have the money, then absolutely rent a car over buying/building and racing a new/used car.

Raymond "From the empty wallet side" Blethen

[gran racing]

Save yourself a TON of time / heartburn and buy a built racecar. The best racecar for a first time driver is one that he/she can afford to race, will be reliable and allow for the most seat time.

[BlueStreak]

^

Oh yeah, don't forget there is a great book out there on how to "Go Ahead - Take the Wheel". If I could just remember the name of it........I think it's in bold green text just above this post!

[Shannon1530]

I am able to work on my own cars...and I really enjoy it....but I have also heard that for the first car...buy one already prepared..then build one later on once you know more about what you want to get into.

As far as renting...I am not a fan. That is one reason I want to get a car now...I can go over it...repair/replace/upgrade anything that needs it...then shake the car down on Solo II thru the winter while I wait on the driver schools early next year. I already have plans to attend...and I am taking two guys with me to prep the car so I can focus on the school.

[Shannon1530]

BlueStreak...I just bought the book!!! Thanks for the advice!

[tnord]

I found a running 90 miata here in town for $900. If I were to take the $3500 I had set aside for a "prepared car" and buy the miata...could I get it on the track for the other $2400?
[/b]


i'm going to make a few assumptions based on this statement which may be wrong. please don't be insulted if they are. just trying to help here.

if you say you have $3500 set aside to buy a 'prepared car' that tells me a few things;

1) if you're looking at an RX-7 that tells me at least ITA, maybe ITS. you're only going to buy a junker or someone elses failed project. bad idea unless you REALLY know what you're doing/looking for.

2) a $3500 purchasing budget tells me you should be in either ITC or ITB. the reason i say this is that WAY too many people end up buying cars they can't afford to race. going faster costs more money to keep the car running properly. you'll spend more in tires, brakes, consumables like wheel bearings, ball joints, etc the farther up the speed pyramid you go. after a couple years of struggling they get frustrated, sell the car at a loss, and leave racing altogether. this is not what we want to see.

3) you really need to be buying a built car and not building one. $3500 will get y ou a decent donor, cage, and wheels/tires. i know you said you enjoy working on stuff, but don't worry, there's ALWAYS work to be done. i haven't had a thing break in almost 2 years on mine and i always have work to do between every event.



i also think it's really important for someones first venture into racing to get a common, well established car. the commonality of parts, known setups, and friends you'll meet at the track that can help you are a HUGE benefit most overlook when looking to get into racing. an ITB CRX i think is probably the best choice for you, not sure about ITC, but my gut tells me an old civic is a good choice. the ITB Porsche 924 may be the coolest choice, but probably not the best option for someone just getting started, or the cheapest.

if you REALLY have to get into ITA, wait until you can save up the cash to buy a nice car to get you going. i built my first one and it took me 2yrs and about $10,000 before it wasn't a huge pile of crap. you can buy a nice ITA car for about $7500, whereas a nice ITB car may only cost you $5000.

good luck.

[KelleyHux]

Shannon1530 ...

You don't mention where in the country you are. That might be helpful while looking for advice.

In certain areas of the country, some models are more popular than others. That may help you find someone who knows about your chosen car and/or it may give you someone who can help you work on it and/or find someone who can help you out at the track.

For example, if you live in the St. Louis metroplex, and your options are RX7 or VW - I'd suggest VW. You've got one of the best VW pilots in the country in your neighborhood, and he builds a good race car too. Chris Albin is generally very helpful and he can probably answer a ton of questions about VWs for you.

Just my thoughts,
Kelley Huxtable
(not a racer, just a worker)
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

PS - You might also consider signing your name to your posts occasionally.

[Shannon1530]

KellyHux - I am located in the Tampa Bay Area.

tnord - I am not insulted at all. You just about hit the nail on the head. I am really just a beginner. I am not interested in winning just yet...just looking to get my license and enjoy some seat time while learning the basics. Once I understand more about the sport, then I will consider spending more money to go fast.

One of the reasons that I was looking at an RX7 was I found a car with cage, fuel cell, front suspension, and all the parts to complete the car (project started, currently in storage) plus a ton of spares for $1600. This car is staight with no rust. Basically, just requires assembly. That is the only reason I would consider ITA/IT7 car.

Thanks again for the advice...

[mattbatson]

I'm a guy on a real tight budget too...
I built my car, which was not a common car by any stretch (ITB suzuki swift)....

After all was said and done, I had a mid-packer that cost me about 8K...

Oh, and the car was free from my dad's backyard (blown engine), and the motor/tranny was a junkyard special for 200 smackers.

8 grand.

For about 3 grand less I could have had a built car, that was faster, and more common/easier parts source.

I had to spend another 3500 to get the motor and suspension up to snuff, so that I could start running up front.

So, about 11.5 grand for a nearly front running ITB car....

Do the math. Buy a car for pennies on the dollar. Save yourself the three or four months of sweat and blood in the garage building up a track car....

There are so many race cars for sale on here at rock bottom prices...you would be crazy to build on your own.

Remember, the wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

Buy a built car, put it on your credit card if you have to, spend a weekend bleeding the brakes, alignment, changing the oil...then go to drivers school!

[tnord]

well, i'm sure for what you're getting $1600 is a good price, but i'd still be wary of what it will take to get it on track. i'd imagine you'll easily break your $3400 budget.

it's easy to get excited about such things. i find myself giving 30min of serious consideration to building a 2nd car all the time, but talk myself out of it. at this point, i know better. just be mindful when you're presented with such opportunities.

[ITS5GB]

PM me if you want a real life IT7 story. I bought a "project" car for $1800 that "had all of the parts". $6000 and 2 years later I sold it for $3000 and it still wasn't fully sorted. Do your self a huge favor and buy one that is ready to go. You'll never believe how much all of the "incidentals" cost in both time and money.

[Knestis]

We all have to learn the hard way. There's no talking sense to someone once they get a whiff of the race car crack pipe. :)

Harsh reality - if you can't afford to rent a car, you can't afford to build/buy, prepare, transport, and race a car prepared to the same level.

There's another credo that you can absolutely bank on: "Competitive, reliable, or affordable - pick two." You sound like you're willing to set free the foremost but that's STILL an investment of 3-4x what you describe as your budget. And that's just for the car.

Now, if you want to WORK on a car rather than RACE a car, you could go the nickel-and-dime-to-death route but the better answer would be to work on some other sucker's race car, crewing while they spend their money. If you don't think that's an attractive option, then the test worked to chase out the fact that you DO want to race, meaning that you would be money ahead to rethink your plan.

K

[dickita15]

As to the question of VW or Rx7 my question is which group of guys at your local tracks would you rather hang out with. These are the guys you will need to ask questions of and borrow parts from during a weekend. go to the track. Make friends. Race what your friends race. The support system will make all the difference.

[iambhooper]

i was in a similar position in 2003. i wanted to get my permit and license, so i went and bought my first car... the fiat x 1/9, which several of the people on this board may remember.

this car was an oddball, supposedly taken care of. however, when we took it from NC to school in Ohio in April, we had minor cooling issues... issues that can't be diagnosed without being on the track. we again had issues a month later at it's first race, and blew 2 head gaskets... btw, thanks again for all the help guys!

5 months and another engine later, we finally finished our first race... with a blown head gasket! i traded that car for my CRX ITC car and have finished every race i have entered in 3 years (including 1 with a ventilated block!).

experience tells me that renting, borrowing or buying a built reliable car is the best way to get started in this business. you need seat time, not wrench time. at school, you will need to have someone with you to check pressures, add fuel and clean the mud off of the car when you go off.

after school, you need seat time to gain the experience it takes to deal with being lapped (because you will be lapped a bunch while you learn), deal with traffic, deal with the corner stations, deal with the brake zones and deal with the idiots who don't know any beter.

rent, borrow, or buy a know quantity. look at the log book, see how recently the car has run. see how it's finished, and enjoy the experience.

now that being said... i know where there is a reace winning ITC CRX coming on the market very soon :D

best of luck!

hoop

[solaris]

Starter IT car you say? Something reliable? Fast? Fun? Cheap? RX-7 even?

I wonder if there is something like that for sale in the classifieds on this site??

:P

(Hope I did not break any rules)

Anyway, I rented my first year of racing and that was the best thing I could've done. I bought the same car at the end of the year, and I was very familiar with it by that time.

[tnord]

i can vouch for the shop that maintains the IT7 car listed in the classifieds section, so it should be a good car. he's done some work for me too.

the ITB Civic built by KingRat towards the bottom of the page would probably be a good choice too.

you gettin out or switching classes nadeem?

[erlrich]

What is the best car for a first time racer?
[/b] This brings up another question to me, and maybe you more experienced guys can weigh in; how many guys begin racing with a "starter" car, and then move up to a better/faster car (not counting replacing a wrecked car)? I would be willing to bet that the majority of IT racers stay with their first cars for a long, long time.

The point I'm getting at is that if you do decide to buy a car you should seriously consider your goals, both short and long-term. Are you going to be happy racing a car that will probably always be a mid-packer? Or do you hope to some day be able to run up front? IMO if you think you will eventually want to be a front-runner you should probably start with a car that at least has that potential. Not that you need to buy a fully-prepped car right now, but I would give serious consideration to where you will be a few years from now.

[mustanghammer]

Starter IT car you say? Something reliable? Fast? Fun? Cheap? RX-7 even?

I wonder if there is something like that for sale in the classifieds on this site??

:P

(Hope I did not break any rules)

Anyway, I rented my first year of racing and that was the best thing I could've done. I bought the same car at the end of the year, and I was very familiar with it by that time.
[/b]

DO NOT BUY THIS CAR! That way Nadeem will have to keep racing it!

Actually this is the kind of car that you should consider. It is well sorted and well maintained. It is not in pieces - that is NEVER a good deal. If you are buying a car always buy a winner and this car fits the bill nicely.

What's next Nadeem?

[spnkzss]

There may be a good ITC Civic Std roller becoming available this fall. This gives you the opportunity to "tinker" and "build your own" without having to worry about a cage.

[tnord]

i'd say that's a good point. although i've thought a lot about changing cars, i never actually have after almost 4 years now.

i'd say that this is another argument in favor of buying a popular/well known car. after all, they wouldn't be popular if they didn't have speed potential.

[fiat124girl]

This brings up another question to me, and maybe you more experienced guys can weigh in; how many guys begin racing with a "starter" car, and then move up to a better/faster car (not counting replacing a wrecked car)? I would be willing to bet that the majority of IT racers stay with their first cars for a long, long time.

The point I'm getting at is that if you do decide to buy a car you should seriously consider your goals, both short and long-term. Are you going to be happy racing a car that will probably always be a mid-packer? Or do you hope to some day be able to run up front? IMO if you think you will eventually want to be a front-runner you should probably start with a car that at least has that potential. Not that you need to buy a fully-prepped car right now, but I would give serious consideration to where you will be a few years from now.
[/b]

Hmmm, intersing thought. We still have our first IT car, the Fiat but we now also have an American Sedan, and ITA 240SX and are getting ready to build an ITS 240SX so yes we still have our original but have added on as we have wanted to go faster.

As far as a good car to start with, Nadeem's RX-7 would be great, it is reliable and fast with Nadeem in it, not quite as fast as the PFM RX-7 with Jim in it but still fast :D

If you like working on your stuff, build your own car, it is fun but don't expect it to be cheap, Jude and I can build them quite inexpensively now but that took years to perfect.

[tnord]

ITS eh Jen?

i've been wanting to do an ITS 99+ miata, but never committed in part because there's nobody to race with in ITS around here.

that seems to be changing as a few ITS cars have popped up.

[solaris]

I just want to change classes. If the car does not sell, I'll probably just run it in ITA next year.

Thanks for the positive refrences guys

[tnord]

to what class?

[solaris]

to what class?
[/b]

I want to move to miatas (big surprise eh :) )

[gran racing]

The point I'm getting at is that if you do decide to buy a car you should seriously consider your goals, both short and long-term. Are you going to be happy racing a car that will probably always be a mid-packer? Or do you hope to some day be able to run up front? [/b]

Very true. Another suggestion is if you are o.k. running mid-pack (and there are advantages to that including $$$$$$), it's not a bad idea to buy a car that could never run up-front no matter what you do to it. In this case, get a decently prepped tweener car and you won't be tempted to invest money on go-fast parts. The other thing is these cars can typically be bought for less money (a well prepped tweener car = a much less prepped car that could be competitive with go-fast parts). Unless of course you get the car moved to a lower class then move onto a higher budget. :blink:

[wrankin]

Unless of course you get the car moved to a lower class then move onto a higher budget.[/b]

If only they would properly class the car, then I would show them ALL!!!

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

:D

-bill, who now owns the chassis that Hoop was going to originally buy but was too smart to.

[fonzy]

i ll throw my 2 centa in since i have raced both of those cars , not a rx7 as per say acually ice raced a datsun 510 with a 12a in it , kinda of a rx7? anyways my 1 st real IT car was a 84 scirocco, you have to understand i am a die hard vw guy at heart , but the amount of fixing that dumb car took ,was unreal , 2 motors , variuos elec problems , ect ect , i sold last year for 1300 i had close to 6000 in it , i road raced it and got laped all the time , i ice raced it and barely finished a race , i also tried to find a pre built car , i think its much better idea, but i couldnt find what i wanted, i last year bought a 1995 acura integra , and i have only had one dnf due to a failed clutch , won the ice race championship, and have been road racing all summer , long story short , GO AND BUY A HONDA!

[ScotMac]

I completely agree w/ the "go buy a pre-built car". In fact, i like Dave's idea of getting a tweener. You want something that is cheap, safe, and reliable. Something to get thru the classes, and let you get some seat time to decide if you like racing. Makes a lot more sense monetarily. You can get such a car for around 3-4k. 3 weekends w/ a rental could easily cost as much or more, and w/ the cheap race car you might have something to sell after those 3 weekends, if you decide you don't like it.

HTHs.

[RSTPerformance]

Very true. Another suggestion is if you are o.k. running mid-pack (and there are advantages to that including $$$$$$), it's not a bad idea to buy a car that could never run up-front no matter what you do to it. In this case, get a decently prepped tweener car and you won't be tempted to invest money on go-fast parts. The other thing is these cars can typically be bought for less money (a well prepped tweener car = a much less prepped car that could be competitive with go-fast parts). Unless of course you get the car moved to a lower class then move onto a higher budget. :blink:
[/b]


Dave-

Your a no good ITB invader... If these darn ITA cars and ITA money keep invading ITB I might just have to go build a Honda myself :bash_1_:

lol... If you want a tweener I still vote for the MR2!!! Good reliable and fun car to drive IMO.

Raymond "What is the difference between a Honda and a Toyota anyway???" Blethen

[gran racing]

I still vote for the MR2!!![/b]

And unbelievably easy on tires (think about one set for a season!!!!!!), brakes, and other parts.

[flaboy]

If you don't want to rent,buy what you want and can afford!!!Put the go fast parts on it as you can afford to and after you have been driving the car to it's max.

After all we all do this for the fun of racing.Onlt you can make what you want to make of it.


I paid a geand for my car and as i got better with it i added the go fast parts.I won back to back races last weekend in my ITC rabbit.


Tim

Just remember to have fun racing!!!!

[CDS]

Having just gone through this thought process a couple of years ago, I'll add my two cents.

My initial plan was to convert my weekend/stock class autocross Miata to SM or ITA specs. When I sat down and itemized everything I would need to buy, and the time it would take to complete (occasional nights, mainly weekends), I quickly realized it would be much quicker and cheaper to buy a built car. And I wanted to get on the track sooner rather than later. Building an IT car is more work than it may appear at first. Sit down and list everything you will need to buy to build a semi-competitive car, and you will probably find that your realistic cost is about double what your first estimate was.

I found a decent car at a really good price not too far from where I live, and I bought it instead. Okay, so its an ITC car, not as fast as a SM or ITA car, but its a blast to drive, fairly competitive and has been pretty darn reliable.

Also, the importance of having a sorted, reliable car at your driver's school can't be over-emphasised. I did a double school at St. Louis, and I never even had time to put fuel in the car. Car problems can ruin your school.

My last bit of advice would be to pick a class that is strong in your area. The one downside to my car is that ITC fields are pretty slim at the tracks I usually run. I'll probably move up to ITA or perhaps ITS in the next year or so.

[charrbq]

All right, Tim. I was waiting for you to gloat before I defended myself. Next time, buddy...I'll remove the lard in my ass, the sand in my shoes, and the egg under the accelerator!!! Seriously, I've got a myriad of excuses, but the fact is, you had us all covered. You did a great job of driving and deserved the wins. I learned that I will no longer race in the south between Memorial Day and the ARRC, regardless of where the race is or who's there. I was sick going to the race and haven't gotten any better...my fault...the heat just made things worse.
I did really enjoy racing you for the brief moments that I had before either the car or I crapped out. I learned some really good lessons, and I did spot a couple of your weak spots that I would've liked to capatalized on, although they probably would've done me no good.
One thing I learned. When a production car decided he wants to use you to pad his already sumptuous lead and get into the middle of another class's race, he needs to be persuaded to do elsewise in the future. That guy cost me any chance I had of staying with you, and I was not proud of him.

I digress. You won, and you should be proud. I am for you. However, there will be another day...another COOLER day!

[fiat124girl]

ITS eh Jen?

i've been wanting to do an ITS 99+ miata, but never committed in part because there's nobody to race with in ITS around here.

that seems to be changing as a few ITS cars have popped up.
[/b]

Yeah, we will still run ITA and AS and maybe even get the Fiat back out for ITC.

We just stumbled into the ITS car, it is Erica's 1998, she recently got hit in the drivers side by a Ford Truck so the insurance company totaled it but it is savable as a race car.

It is almost a shame to turn E's into a race car but it was either that or our street Mustang because Jude likes to build a car every winter.

All of our cars, with the exception of the Fiat, should be running next year.

I say buy the RX-7, they are reliable and fun. Plan on keeping it for a year or two until you get your car control then move to something faster.

[thedemoguy]

I'll save you a lot of trouble...Go with the VW, there very reliable, you can get parts cheap, there will be a lot of VW guys at every track you go to, and FWD is the best car to start racing with...

The best thing is, I'll sell you a very well built "VW Rabbit you can run in ITC or ITB" and have the confidence of knowing your running the best of every thing right from the start so you can work on your driving skills, not your car.

All for the low, low price of $4000 Cash

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/thedemoguy/r6.jpg


Bill

[email protected]

[Knestis]

Capt. Contrary back for your enjoyment... :)

I'd recommend that any new driver set free the whole "move to something faster" mindset. As long as one has got it in one's head that it's all about the car, they are neglecting the most important factor - the driver.

I'd also caution someone against committing to the Rabbit. They are getting thin on the ground and spares are going to increasingly be a problem. Any time you see "restored" versions of something starting to sell for way more than the originals did, it's an indicator.

K

[JLawton]

"VW Rabbit you can run in ITC or ITB" [/b]


How do you run it in B or C ??

[thedemoguy]

Change the engine... :rolleyes:

[Knestis]

Hey, look! Another person to write a letter the next time someone proposes getting rid of the rule that makes that illegal! Yay!!

K

[JLawton]

And Kirk takes the high road..................

[thedemoguy]

If a rabbit came with a 1.6 or a 1.8 what would keep you from putting the 1.8 in the car and running ITB ?
How would that be against the rules ?
The car is set-up as a ITC car, but why not make it a ITB car ?

Enlighten me if you would.


I'd also caution someone against committing to the Rabbit. They are getting thin on the ground and spares are going to increasingly be a problem.[/b]


Not true, I can buy every part on that car new from "Euclid foreign motors" in Cleveland Ohio, and there's got to be a VW part's place near him.

[Greg Amy]

If a rabbit came with a 1.6 or a 1.8 what would keep you from putting the 1.8 in the car and running ITB ?
How would that be against the rules ?[/b]

Two things:

1) ITCS 9.1.3.C: "The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) shall correspond with the automobile classified, and will determine the model and type for competition purposes. A minimum of two (2) VIN plates and/or stampings is required."

2) 5th digit of the VIN determines which engine the chassis was originally produced with:
http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/VW_VIN.shtml

Nothing in the ITCS allows engine swaps in order to move a chassis to a different class; if the engine installed does not match the VIN, the car is illegal.

I don't agree with the rule, but that's why it's illegal. - GA

[thedemoguy]

OK, thanks

I'll sell you a nice ITC Rabbit for $3995 ready to race next weekend.... :eclipsee_steering:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/thedemoguy/r4.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/thedemoguy/r10.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/thedemoguy/r5.jpg

[iambhooper]

Nothing in the ITCS allows engine swaps in order to move a chassis to a different class; if the engine installed does not match the VIN, the car is illegal.

I don't agree with the rule, but that's why it's illegal. - GA
[/b]

Yes this rule does suck. It would be so much easier for me to put a FI motor and harness into my Honda and Race ITB, than sell my car... hope I get enough out of it... and buy one in another class.

And yes... the oly difference between the CRX SI and DX were the FI motor and the later SI came with a sunroof. Other than that, only mild cosmetics.

hoop

[Knestis]

The ITAC is tired of me submitting requests to get this changed. Tag - someone else is it.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

And yes... the oly difference between the CRX SI and DX were the FI motor and the later SI came with a sunroof. Other than that, only mild cosmetics.

hoop [/b]

So if this rule were to disappear, you would be able to 'create' an Si CRX out of a DX CRX that had no sunroof. A model that doesn't exist that would be preferable to the one that does... :bleh:

[Greg Amy]

So if this rule were to disappear, you would be able to 'create' an Si CRX out of a DX CRX that had no sunroof. [/b]
And the functional difference between this and properly stapling a sunroof cover on the Si would be...?

[Andy Bettencourt]

And the functional difference between this and properly stapling a sunroof cover on the Si would be...?
[/b]

Perceived or actual?

In practical application we know there is little difference. But we all want to start with a non-roof car. What you have created is the 'neccessity' to create a model. Differing opinions exist on whether or not this is good for the class.

[merc5000]

hey all...

new to these boards though i have been lurking for a while. the quality and the politeness of the posts here are a welcome addition to my internet experience. really cool that everyone plays nice here.

like shannon, i'm excited about getting started in IT racing next season. You guys have really helped me thing thru the rent vs. buy decision for new races. I had been looking at hondas/neons/ etc. Now I'm more serious about rental (thanks GregAmy, conover et al)

Here's my main concern: I'm in the D.C. region of the SCCA (of which i'm a member and a new volunteer at our main track Summit Point), and from hanging around the track and in checking online, i dont see many (if any?) rent a race car vendors. I did talk to rent-a-race-car.net but theyre 4+ hours away and not a practical option. Am i missing something? Yes, I want to run the numbers on IT rental, but how do i really get started?

Many thanks in advance,

Bill

[shwah]

The way I read the rule, installing a non-sunroof roof skin is legal anyhow, so how again would it create a new allowance? I don't much care about percieved advantage, only actual advantage that cannot be acheived within the current rule.

[Knestis]

So if this rule were to disappear, you would be able to 'create' an Si CRX out of a DX CRX that had no sunroof. A model that doesn't exist that would be preferable to the one that does... :bleh:
[/b]

Sorry - a non issue. Still. We can whiz a top off of a DX right now and weld it on. Same result. This is the most ironical of the silliness: We can change every common body part separately (fender, hood, floor, suspension bracket, inner fender, A-pillar - every freakin' one of 'em) but can't transplant them as an assembly (the whole shell). Note here that I am NOT talking about using a part that's unique to an Si on a DX, or vice-versa so don't go whipping out suggestions that someone can gain an advantage.

merc5000 - I tend to think that the best route to take rental-wise, is to set up a season-long plan with one provider. In some cases, for example, it would be cheaper for you to travel without the car, than for the team to transport it...

We're working on plans for Conover Motorsports to manage my Golf for a bigger rental commitment for the 2008 season and they'll likely have other options available, too. Email me at kirk(dot)knestis(at)evaluand(dot)com if you want to set up a time to talk, or give Conover a call - http://www.raceconver.com

K

[Greg Amy]

Perceived or actual?[/b]
Well, I sincerely hope we're trying to regulate reality, and not perception...the latter is impossible.

Bill, I'm guessing there is a TON of folks that rent out Spec Miatas down in the DC area. King Rat Motorsports (http://www.kingratmotorsports.com/) and Meathead Racing (http://www.meatheadracing.com/) come immediately to mind. You could also contact Flatout Motorsports up here in MA (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/) and see if their schedule is gonna bring 'em down that way any time soon.

Though you may not wish to drive Spec Miata, I'm guessing you might be able to work up a deal with them to rent their car for ITA, and possibly at a good rate since the car(s) may be there anyway for the SM races...

Other than Miatas, Conover Motorsports is the only people that spring to mind that have consistent rentals... - GA

[merc5000]

Well, I sincerely hope we're trying to regulate reality, and not perception...the latter is impossible.

Bill, I'm guessing there is a TON of folks that rent out Spec Miatas down in the DC area. King Rat Motorsports (http://www.kingratmotorsports.com/) and Meathead Racing (http://www.meatheadracing.com/) come immediately to mind. You could also contact Flatout Motorsports up here in MA (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/) and see if their schedule is gonna bring 'em down that way any time soon.

Though you may not wish to drive Spec Miata, I'm guessing you might be able to work up a deal with them to rent their car for ITA, and possibly at a good rate since the car(s) may be there anyway for the SM races...

Other than Miatas, Conover Motorsports is the only people that spring to mind that have consistent rentals... - GA
[/b]

GA,

thanks for this... u're right! i see King Rat and Meathead at Summit Point all the time, and yes, u're right, i'm not looking to do SM right now. Good idea to contact them. Can't hurt?

One other benefit (it seems) of renting is that it makes it a lot easier to try different IT classes right? I can sample so to speak. :-) I mean if I buy an ITA car, i'm not gonna run in the ITR stuff any time soon, am I?

[gran racing]

I mean if I buy an ITA car, i'm not gonna run in the ITR stuff any time soon, am I?[/b]

Only if you were to buy an NX2000. :unsure:

[fomad]

Shannon, I'm in the Tampa Bay area, I'm trying to build up an '85 supra to ITS qualifications. Let me know if you need manpower, I'm smart like horse - strong like doctor..... I'm always available to bounce stuff off of...

[iambhooper]

It's extremely easy to change the body panel's on a Fiero. I can "create" a non sunroof by taking a roof off of any fiero ever made... maybe even a 4cyl car, and installing it on any sunroof car... even a v-6 car running in ITA in a matter of hour's... and no one would know any better.

In fact, did you know that the only difference between a '87 Fiero SE 4cyl and V6 is the motor and tranny?

But I guess that's another Monster for another day :D

hoop

[thedemoguy]

I don't agree with the rental point of view... How much is it to rent a race car for the season ?
If your starting out in road racing, in my mind your better off starting off at the bottom of the ladder or at lest in ITC, then work your way up to the faster classes...

In the beginning the car isn't the real issue or it's not as important as you would think, the driver is the point of focus, you need to develop good race craft, hone your driving skills and when you have gotten all the car will give and you need more, then move to a faster class...

That's the reason I think a VW ITC is the best way to go for a new guy or an experienced guy that doesn't have time to work on the car all the time....Reliability, Reliability, Reliability...

And for less then $5000 the car is your car... and if you change to a faster class you have something to sell, you may not get all your money back, but you will get money back.

Rent and you have nothing for your investment...

Just my opinion nothing more.

[merc5000]

thanks demo guy....

just as i was setting in on a plan of action, u go and make me re-think it! ha! :P

my only thing was with renting is that u're not tied to a specific car, so i could try a different class out, even mid-season right if i so chose. also, i'm concerned about space right now at my place. i live in a fairly tight neighborhood should i need space for a trailer and all. would be difficult. stil mulling it all over. i really just wanna get ***ing started! the sooner i get going, the sooner i can make mistakes, and start progressing.

thanks!

[Knestis]

...And for less then $5000 the car is your car... and if you change to a faster class you have something to sell, you may not get all your money back, but you will get money back. ...[/b]

And for less than $5000 you get a car. And only a car. Expect to spend (literally) thousands on misc stuff that you don't already own, unless you happen to have a trailer, tow vehicle, tools, jack, fuel jugs, spare wheels and other parts, and all of the other tidbits. And even if you buy a pretty good already-prepared car, there are almost always surprises that need fixing.

If you have ever decided to do a job on your own street car and made three trips to Autozone, at $40 a pop, you are just beginning to understand this game. I remember putting a $70 oil cooler on my first race car - and spending $200 to get the job done, by the time I bought hoses, a flange, isolation mounts, hardware, etc., etc., etc.

Look - I own a race car so I'm not following my own best advice but I also rent it out a bunch of times each year to subsidize my own participation. That's the choice I've made.

For consideration, I amortized the cost to build and maintain the Golf over a sensible predicted life (3 years) and ended up at something in the neighborhood of $300 per track hour - not including direct costs of fuel, tires, entry fees, and consumables.

Just for giggles, it would be interesting for folks with opinions on this subject to share how many years they've been racing and how many race cars they have owned. :)

The exception to this rule continues to be if you REALLY like to work on cars - then it makes sense to make the commitment. And by this, I mean "would rather work on them than race them." That's a deal-maker right there.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

GA,

thanks for this... u're right! i see King Rat and Meathead at Summit Point all the time, and yes, u're right, i'm not looking to do SM right now. Good idea to contact them. Can't hurt?

One other benefit (it seems) of renting is that it makes it a lot easier to try different IT classes right? I can sample so to speak. :-) I mean if I buy an ITA car, i'm not gonna run in the ITR stuff any time soon, am I?
[/b]

You never know. I rented an ITB 2002 for my school, and am running ITE and next season ITR. I bought because I like working on my car, it's my hobbie, I also like hitching up the trailer and towing. Sure I need more tools wish I had a welder, air compressors for my air tools and ect. I removed and reinstalled the rear sub-frame with hand tools, an aluminum racing jack, and a 2x4. I looked at running a Spec Miata in ITA, but for the money I got a car that I wanted. I've been in close racing classes having run a medium senior spec class kart, that's not something I'd want to do in a fendered car, I don't like body work. Rental is the only way to go for school, unless you can put togeather a pit crew. Best way to find a rental car is to ask around. Buying vs renting only you can answer that.

James

[ScotMac]

If someone is getting into racing, they almost assuredly have tools, a floor jack, and probably some type of tow vehicle. Even if they need to get a tow vehicle, you can get something cheap off of craigslist for under $1k. I got a 95 van for $800, and it has already done 5000 miles w/out a single problem. Obviously you need to check it out, but deals can be had.

Yes, race tires are not cheap...but if you get the right ones they will last for a bit...and, especially starting out, you don't need new tires every other race.

Yes, that enclosed, gooseneck, air conditioned, ... trailer can easily run you $20k. But you can also get an open used one off a craigslist for cheap. In fact, often trailers are packaged w/ the race car sale, to sweeten the deal.

Hey, i'm not saying i'm cheap, but...ok i'm cheap! ;)

[JLawton]

I started with my street car doing track days. Over a three year period I upgraded springs, shocks, sway bars and a few other minor things. I then decided to make the jump in to wheel to wheel. I really only needed to add the safety items. My tow vehicle became my daily driver, I bought an $1,800 trailer and used fully treaded R compound tires that lasted a whole season. At the time I couldn't afford the $5K to buy. Yes, I got my butt kicked by driving an under developed car, but I was out there racing!!! I had several years where I ran 6-8 events and spent less than $5K per season. So spending $xxx on a rental didn't make sense to me. Plus, (and I've had this discussion before) if I balled up the rental car, I would have ahd to take out a loan to pay for it...........End of racing for years (having not only to pay for the balled up car, but to save for another car.........

So, I think building up a street car/daily driver is another option if you're not rolling in the cash like I was in my younger years. (hmmm, not like I'm rolling in it now, it's just my priorities have gotten more whacked!! ;) )


The most important thing IS TO GET OUT THERE!! Don't stand around watching, go ahead, grab the wheel!!


Wait............I think there's a book out there that covers all of this.................. :D

[thedemoguy]

JLawton

The most important thing IS TO GET OUT THERE!! Don't stand around watching, go ahead, grab the wheel!!
[/b]

That's it right there, don't think about it just do it... what ever way you can, just get on track and get seat time, racing is not just a pastime but a way of life, and a GREAT way of life it is... :026: :eclipsee_steering:

My family and I have experienced the best memories of all at the race track.

[ddewhurst]

***My family and I have experienced the best memories of all at the race track.***

Racing is PEOPLE. :023:

***Just my opinion nothing more.***

Bill, I didn't read all the posts. Have you ever raced anything in your life or driven anything competitive to get a feel at tracks day or such? Being that you have family & IF you & family can throw away the $5,000.00 in case of a major dissaster with the car your opinion in my mind is valid. If you find in a hurry that wheel to wheel racing is not for you the car may still be sold to recover some or all the $5,000.00. If you get started & feel iffy about driving DON'T give up to soon. Give it some time for your mind & body to adjust to this NEW thing they are doing. That's easy for me to say, BUT, I'll dam well tell you that if I had to parchute out of an airplane to save my a$$ I can tell you I wouldn't attempt to tell or train my mind & body that was a good thing to do on a normal/regular basis.

Have Fun ;)

[merc5000]

[quote]
***My family and I have experienced the best memories of all at the race track.***

Racing is PEOPLE. :023:

***Just my opinion nothing more.***

Bill, I didn't read all the posts. Have you ever raced anything in your life or driven anything competitive to get a feel at tracks day or such? Being that you have family & IF you & family can throw away the $5,000.00 in case of a major dissaster with the car your opinion in my mind is valid. If you find in a hurry that wheel to wheel racing is not for you the car may still be sold to recover some or all the $5,000.00. If you get started & feel iffy about driving DON'T give up to soon. Give it some time for your mind & body to adjust to this NEW thing they are doing. That's easy for me to say, BUT, I'll dam well tell you that if I had to parchute out of an airplane to save my a$$ I can tell you I wouldn't attempt to tell or train my mind & body that was a good thing to do on a normal/regular basis.

Have Fun ;)

yeah, when i was younger i ran my v8 camaro in fla... even at sebring, but that was lonnnggggg time ago. So after an extended hiatus, i bought a sports car, safety equipment, did some track events, then realized how much i love this stuff. So i went to a good accredited racing school, practice sessions, volunteered as track worker... and have putting together a plan for next year. I think to answer your question, Yes i can "throw away" a little money and Yes i realize that i'll suck for a while. Really, thats fine with me, and its similar to every other pursuit in life isnt it? I mean when i started my own business, it was one brick at at time, so to speak. i dont know of a way to get to the front of the line in life. So let me start sucking now! lol.

Bill

[thedemoguy]

ddewhurst
Not trying to be disrespectful but you should read the post from the beginning.

[ddewhurst]

SO thedemoguy, I got some posts & names screwed up. :026: Enjoy a :birra: & my point still stands for anyone re-doing or doing for the first time. ;)

***If you get started & feel iffy about driving DON'T give up to soon. Give it some time for your mind & body to adjust to this NEW thing they are doing. ***

[thedemoguy]

:bash_1_: