whataboutlrp?

[pfcs49]

Does anybody know or care about what's happening at Limerock? Can't find anything on Mylaps. phil

[Doc Bro]

Fri qual- soggy soaking cold wet rain. The rain was some of the wettest on record. Real wet rain.

Sat nice clear sunny.

S: Driscoll, Hendo, Maynard, Wright
B; Langelius- Ritchie made a Jamaica mistake-a in the downhill and stuffed it.
C; White
A; Betencourt, Hunter, Klvana.

Breault- stuffed it coming out of big Bend. Limped to finish 7th. Car REAL bent. BUMMER. NHIS HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

R

[Tkczecheredflag]

ITA
Andy B 102.4
Richie H 102.6
Tim K 103.3

Richie smoked us all in the rain to qualify on the pole, with Andy in second and me in third (Richie was 3 seconds faster than the rest of the field 1:18 vs 1:21s).

Andy got a decent jump on the start going into Big Bend (I thought the flag came early and it appeared from where I was sitting Andy was pacing the field - about a 1/2 a car in front of Richie when the pace car pulled off - taking the pole duties away from Richie) . I tried to tuck in behind Andy but could not take second from Richie. It was the Andy and Richie for a while -I was a few car lengths back but loosing ground each lap. Richie spun in the short chute at about 1/2 way through the race - I got to Richie just as he was getting back on course - He tried to make a come back but Andy was checking out and I was having a bad time with lapped traffic(not their fault just caught these cars in bad spots). Judging by the sheets 1-6 finished on the lead lap but 4 and 5 were just about to go down a lap back 53 seconds for the leader.

Lots of fun - missed the boys in Ohio - hope to hear more from them soon.

Congrats to Andy B :eclipsee_steering:

[Magical Trevor]

Rob-sorry to hear about the car (I don't even recall seeing a hurt Z3 going by or hearing anything about you on the flaggers' net... tired, I guess)
Anyone know if Dominick has a camera? He had two moments (one of which, unfortunately, took him out), but one could have been an audition for the Joie Chitwood Stunt Show!
He ran the Civic at about a 35 degree angle for several yards going through the Diving Turn about halfway through the ITA (Group 5) race...

[Andy Bettencourt]

The ITA race was better than the results showed. I was in P2 at the start and stayed pace with the Pace Car. Richie held back for some reason and I slowed for him to come up to me. We were side by side when the green flew and I got a good start. I lead into T1 and Richie and I proceeded to run nose to tail for 8-10 laps. He was faster than me through the esses and I was faster than him in the uphill. Pretty much equal everywhere else. He spun in the left hander and it was just about managing traffic after that as I ran as hard as I could to hold onto my gap.

Real sorry to hear about you Doc. Hope you are ok. You had a nice 5-car battle there.

[Doc Bro]

Thank you Andy. I felt sooo bad as I saw you come up. I pointed you by three times. I tried to get off line but the car was just too much to hold onto. I knew I was holding you up and I'm real sorry for that. You were very patient with me and I was trying to be respectful to you. Glad I didn't hurt your finish.

I'm OK. Just sore. All adrenaline. Looked under the car this evening.....pasta anyone??

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Thank you Andy. I felt sooo bad as I saw you come up. I pointed you by three times. I tried to get off line but the car was just too much to hold onto. I knew I was holding you up and I'm real sorry for that. You were very patient with me and I was trying to be respectful to you. Glad I didn't hurt your finish.

I'm OK. Just sore. All adrenaline. Looked under the car this evening.....pasta anyone??

R [/b]

Dude, I was hoping you weren't getting mad at me! Each time you pointed me by, I had no run and not enough snot to get by. I rely on that 'momentum thang' to make passes...You did a great job and everyone was safe. Your whole group knew I was there and that is all we can ask. Luckily, Richie wasn't on my bumper so I could pick the BEST spot, not the FIRST spot... :)

[cchandler]

Rob, you have my sympathies ...........really. :( I'm thinking about making lamps with bent lower control arms.

Great racing from the back. I had a blast working my way thru the pack. Lots of 2-4 car battles going on. Incredibly clean driving by everyone.

I've got a cool vid of the Joey Chitwood move in the Downhill with that Honda!!

[Tkczecheredflag]

The ITA race was better than the results showed. I was in P2 at the start and stayed pace with the Pace Car. Richie held back for some reason and I slowed for him to come up to me. We were side by side when the green flew and I got a good start.
[/b]

Andy - You know I hold your driving ability in the highest reagard and I am not trying to make to trouble but my understanding was that the "written" or "unwritten" rule, is that during the pace lap we do not advance our grid position, which admittedly you did. I believe in taking every advantage to get a good start, as I beleive it is extremely important - and you did have a great start.

Also, please enlighten us on the single Oreo cookie and milk in the impound area.

Congrats again on the LRP victory - it was a nice drive.

Robert - sorry to hear about your "off" hope you are feeling better today - hoping to see you at NHIS.

Would like to see the Dom's video - I have old video of Richie H in his old "A" car hitting the curb in the downhill and doin' the Joey - never lifting - scarey stuff.

Great race to all in ITA - nicely done. I know there were some newer racers out there - you guys did a great job - special thanks to Dan Deyo who had make special efforts and had to "give up a lot" to make room.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - You know I hold your driving ability in the highest reagard and I am not trying to make to trouble but my understanding was that the "wrtten" or "unwritten" rule, is that during the pace lap we do not advance our grid position, which admittedly you did. I believe in taking every advantage to get a good start, as I beleive it is extremely important - and you did have a great start.

[/b]

I will disagree Timmy. I held the speed of the PC and Richie faded back - all while the PC was in front of us. When I noticed this, I slowed to allow Richie to come beside me. I know you have video - I would like to see 100% that we were even when the green flag flew - which I am confident we were. The 'good' start was a result of a hair better reaction than Richie, not any advantage in 'spacing'. Your vid will be the proof however. I hope I am right, because it was certainly my intent.

BUT, this does bring up an interesting topic for education. If we are to follow the PC, and the pole sitter slows to a speed less than the PC - WHILE BEING PACED, what is P2 (and the rest of the field) supposed to do?

I think I did the correct thing in slowing to allow Richie to come beside me before the green flew...

[Tom Blaney]

Andy it is the option of the Pole Sitter (not P2) to decide the format of the field. Since he beat your qualifying time he has the right and privledge to go at a reasonably slow pace expecially if HE decides that the field BEHIND HIM (including the P2 position which is required to be BEHIND HIM) to slow the field down to allow the field to catch up.

The proper starting grid should have all of the cars as tightly bunched as possible so ALL of the cars in the race have a fair chance at a fair start. That includes P2 all the way through P32. I have seen far too many starts where the guy in 15th place doesn't have a chance to catch the guy in 14th on the warm up lap.

From what it sounds like to me (an although I was not there) you were trying to drag Richie up to your power band and not willing to slow to HIS CHOICE OF STARTING SPEED. Remember HE BEAT YOUR ASS IN QUALIFYING AND THEREFORE IS ALLOWED TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO.

IMHOC

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy it is the option of the Pole Sitter (not P2) to decide the format of the field. Since he beat your qualifying time he has the right and privledge to go at a reasonably slow pace expecially if HE decides that the field BEHIND HIM (including the P2 position which is required to be BEHIND HIM) to slow the field down to allow the field to catch up.

The proper starting grid should have all of the cars as tightly bunched as possible so ALL of the cars in the race have a fair chance at a fair start. That includes P2 all the way through P32. I have seen far too many starts where the guy in 15th place doesn't have a chance to catch the guy in 14th on the warm up lap.

From what it sounds like to me (an although I was not there) you were trying to drag Richie up to your power band and not willing to slow to HIS CHOICE OF STARTING SPEED. Remember HE BEAT YOUR ASS IN QUALIFYING AND THEREFORE IS ALLOWED TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO.

IMHOC

[/b]

I agree somewhat with you in theory Tom. However, you didn't read the details carefully enough. We have been told many times this year to follow the pace car and NOT speed up when it breaks off. All I did in this case from the P2 spot is what we have been doing all year - HOLD THE EXACT SPEED OF THE PACE CAR. I did not speed up, Richie actually slowed down.

I will also challenge your assertion that the P1 car has any right to tell anyone else what to do. Find it for me in the GCR. The front row (and all cars for that matter) are to gather up and follow the PC. The purpose of the PC is to SET THE STARTING SPEED. Any mention of the P1 car dictating the starting speed is GONE.

Actually, looking at section J.1 of the GCR on page 51, it could be argued that Richie was 'falling out of position' by not keeping the pace the PC set.

So again, I held the PC speed, did not speed up and then CAME BACK to Richie's speed as I realized he wasn't holding pace. I believe Richie and I started side by side - as it was my intent - but Tim's video will prove it either way. I am very anxious to see it now! I could be wrong with what actually happened - and Tim was in the perfect spot to see - but I fully believe I slowed to take the green side by side. I hope so....Tim should be able to tell us real quick when he reviews his vid.

[Gary L]

Actually, looking at section J.1 of the GCR on page 51, it could be argued that Richie was 'falling out of position' by not keeping the pace the PC set. [/b]

Good point, but it seems to me you did good by slowing to the polesitter's pace, because you could otherwise be bitten by the first paragraph of section J., to wit:


A car may not improve its position in the field once it comes under the Starter&#39;s orders, regardless of circumstances.</span>[/b]

Interesting situation, really... I know what it says, but have to wonder if the intent of this recent addition (last sentence of 6.2.2.E) was to actually disallow a slightly slower starting speed than that of the pace car:


Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off.[/b]

In any case, I think we need to be sure we understand it is the responsibility of the starter to determine a proper start; the competitors, polesitter or not, have no vote.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It is interesting. I hope I was even with Richie. It certainly was my intent to &#39;get back&#39; to him. I also hope that the Starter would have waived the start should I have been &#39;in front&#39; of P1 before the green.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Here is the video of the race to review - I posted some of the pace lap - Unfortunately it does not show Andy&#39;s position to Richie&#39;s when the green flag flew.

Not to :dead_horse: but as soon as Andy accerlerated/advanced past Richie in the downhill -IMHO he advanced his position and drew a foul as per the GCR (I finally pulled out the GCR and took a look). Also, IMHO I do not believe it effected the outcome of the race Andy just drove it well - We all know Andy has that magic .095 DOM on his Zoom Zoom to make him wicked fast, or at least the weight issue helps :P.

I probally tend to agree with Tom more regarding the P-1 responsibilities and priviledges. If we do not advance our positions and/or hold our qualifying positions during the pace lap there is no room for discussion - ever. Andy - I think you would have to agree you accerlerated pasted Richie- Right?

So, enjoy the video. I am sure there is more interesting stuff to evaluate and critique regarding my driving ability - But this P-1, P-2 stuff is interesting going forward.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...442915713&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5966010688442915713&hl=en)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not to :dead_horse: but as soon as Andy accerlerated/advanced past Richie in the downhill -IMHO he advanced his position and drew a foul as per the GCR (I finally pulled out the GCR and took a look).



But this P-1, P-2 stuff is interesting going forward.

[/b]

Tim,

Let&#39;s keep the discussion going. We can all learn. Under your interpretation, if I am P1, we are behind the PC, and I slow down and the P2 car gets out ahead for a second (how long is a penalty?), then the P2 car should be penalized? As long as P2 gets back in proper alignment BEFORE the track goes green, I see no way you can penalize...P1 could get people eliminated by just jockying his speed - which is not supposed to happen...right?

[RKramden]

It is interesting. I hope I was even with Richie. It certainly was my intent to &#39;get back&#39; to him. I also hope that the Starter would have waived the start should I have been &#39;in front&#39; of P1 before the green.
[/b]
Considering where the starter is, and the distance involved (you said it was an early start) it is almost impossible for the starter to accurately judge if the P2 car is in front of the P1 car by a small amount. A car length or two, yes, but not half a car length.

My concerns as a starter are:
1:) would it be a SAFE start,
2:) would it be fair to all the drivers,
3:) would it be a SAFE start,
4:) are they any blatant cheaters, and
5:) would it be a SAFE start

On more than one occasion I have waved the green even when the pack was not well formed as I felt it would have been safer that doing a waive off (not recently, however). Safety always takes priority over fair.

In general, starts have been much, much more under control in the last two years than they were 5 or 10 years ago.

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, good. I feel the video CLEARLY vindicates me IMHO. As we exited West Bend, I was keeping pace with the PC. As we rolled down the downhill, I noticed Richie hanging back and slowed up to even it out. This all happened before we could even SEE the starters stand. We were dead even from that point on. Phew. I certainly didn&#39;t advance any positions. Right?

[Tkczecheredflag]

OK, good. The video CLEARLY vindicates me IMHO. As we exited West Bend, I was keeping pace with the PC. As we rolled down the downhill, I noticed Richie hanging back and slowed up to even it out. This all happened before we could even SEE the starters stand. We were dead even from that point on. Phew.
[/b]
Andy - Read GCR 6.2.2, J and see if I am misunderstanding the text. Coming through West Bend I agree you are "pacing" correctly. The acceleration past Richie in the downhill would appear to be an advance - Am I misreading/understanding it?

Again - Do I really believe it effected the race? - nope - absolutely not - you the man :happy204: .

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - Read GCR 6.2.2, J and see if I am misunderstanding the text. Coming through West Bend I agree you are "pacing" correctly. The acceleration past Richie in the downhill would appear to be an advance - Am I misreading/understanding it?

Again - Do I really believe it effected the race? - nope - absolutely not - you the man :happy204: . [/b]

No sweat Tim, it&#39;s a good debate.

I guess my issue is that &#39;improving my position&#39; is VERY grey here. Yes, I was ahead of Richie..but only because I was doing what I was supposed to be doing as a responsible member of the front row - keeping exact pace with the pace car. Once I noticed he wasn&#39;t, I switched my focus (speed) from the pace car, to Richie. I was never once going any faster than the pace car.

The pace car sets the speed of the start - according to the GCR - and at the specific direction of our stewards this year. I also reference 6.2.2.E - last sentence: "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off."

So in my mind, this begs the question - would it have been LEGAL for me to keep pace with the pace car putting the actual &#39;questionable action&#39; on Richie - since he DIDN&#39;T keep pace as he should have?

Again, I think you could legitimately say that I &#39;improved my position prior to the green flag&#39;. But it was because the pole sitter didn&#39;t follow the proper proceedures. I was also back in perfect line before the starters could even see us. This also begs the question - if you are allowed to be &#39;out of line&#39; to scrub tires - when do you have to be BACK in line? I was in line before any starting official could see me...is that an actual fault? If I were P1 and you were P2 and I slowed and you advanced without knowing it - should you be penalized?

Debate on - It&#39;s a very interesting and rare situation to have the P1 car slow down to less MPH than the PC.

Anyone care to look at the video and weigh in? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...442915713&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5966010688442915713&hl=en)

I guess after looking at the video and knowing what the front row is supposed to do, I would do the same thing again...Stewards?

[RKramden]

The pace car sets the speed of the start - according to the GCR - and at the specific direction of our stewards this year. I also reference 6.2.2.E - last sentence: "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off."
[/b]
And I have known pole sitters to have been penalized for balking at the start, e.g. not keeping up with the pace car.


So in my mind, this begs the question - would it have been LEGAL for me to keep pace with the pace car putting the actual &#39;questionable action&#39; on Richie - since he DIDN&#39;T keep pace as he should have?
[/b]
The GCR is indeed gray and even conflicting, in that you clearly can try to follow the rules and no matter what you do, you are going to break one of them.


I was in line before any starting official could see me...[/b]
This is false. The starter can see you from the instant you pop out from under the bridge. We use that to help judge how well the pack ( is / is not ) forming up.


is that an actual fault? If I were P1 and you were P2 and I slowed and you advanced without knowing it - should you be penalized?
[/b]
I would never call you for an infraction under these conditions, but I might call in that P1 balked the start. Again, it is so far from the starters stand that it is difficult to judge speeds and whom is slowing and whom is speeding up, but the fact that the P1 car dropped back from the pace car is very clear.

The stewards doing something about it is a whole &#39;nother question. Most won&#39;t.


Debate on - It&#39;s a very interesting and rare situation to have the P1 car slow down to less MPH than the PC.
[/b]
Happens a lot more than you would think. <_<

[Tom Blaney]

What I find interesting is that everybody is doing all kinds of tweeking of what the rule says, when it all reality is gets down to two facts.

First, the Pole Sitter should use reasonable judgement to keep the pack tight and well formed. But he did earn the right to be the LEAD CAR, THE TOP DOG, THE FIRST PLACE QUALIFIER, THE POLE SITTER. That means that in terms of gentlemenly racing, the P2 car is still not (any of the above). If the pole sitter wants to slow the pack down to his advantage, he won that right by beating everybody else&#39;s lap times. So as a gentleman racer everyone else in the pack has to respect his right. I know and have raced Richie and I don&#39;t think he is the type of guy to pulse the field, however I know of plenty of P2 cars who are trying to get a jump on P1.

Secondly, The pace car is suppose to set the pace and bunch the field tightly for a start. That means (again in gentlemenly racing) that if he looks in his mirrors before turn 9, and only sees half the field he should SLOW THE HELL DOWN and form the field. If the pace car does this, than the clown in P15 won&#39;t be doing brake taps on P17 just so he can get 3&#39; of running room on P13. The field will be tight and slow, and when the pace car accelerates out of the way, P1 will have a tight formation, and won&#39;t have to bother with P2 trying to do the "Well I&#39;m almost as fast as P1 so I should have some say in the start" If P1 does act like a jerk (and yes it does happen) than it is up to the Starter and the Stewards to determine if he/she should get slapped, not the guy in P2 who is having a hissy fit because the start is too slow for his gear change.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am going to edit my post - I wrote it as I was running out the door...

What Tom doesn&#39;t get is that we have two conflicting rules. There was no attempt here to get a &#39;jump&#39; on P1 - as has been stated, and the video clearly shows. The question is whether or not P1 is required to keep pace with the pace car - and what is the rest of the field obligated to do if it doesn&#39;t.

Tom talks in &#39;old school&#39; gentleman terms with no support from the GCR. P1 has no responsibility for the bunching of the field as long as they are doing what they are supposed to behind the pace car. All I want to do is be fast - and legal - both in the tech shed and on the track. EVERY one of our starts for me this year has been from the middle of second gear - it&#39;s just what we do now.

Keeping pace with the pace car should be priority #1. No faster, no slower. If P1 doesn&#39;t do it - is P2&#39;s obligation to P1, the rest of the field, the pace car, the GCR - what?

I have been in P1 more than half my races this year. I would love to control the speed of the start - but I DON&#39;T. The PACE CAR DOES.

[dazzlesa]

i would like to see clarification in the gcr for all of us.

[Andy Bettencourt]

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=238828

[JLawton]

Andy, Tim

Don&#39;t take any of this personal:

Andy, I always hate to admitt when you are right!! :D But I think you were OK. You seemed to quickly get off the gas and let Richie catch up. It even seem as Richie was getting onto the straight, he gave it a "little" blip that put him ahead.

Tim (Mr Stone Thrower), you&#39;ve been known to hold back on the starts and end up getting a good run at the start!! :018: :D :D


I&#39;ve certainly seen much worse!!

[JohnRW]

Andy did nothing wrong. People fart around &#39;under starters orders&#39; all the time, whether it&#39;s P1 or P15. That Andy didn&#39;t immediately notice that P1 had slowed below the speed of the pace car is inconsequential...he appeared to &#39;fix it&#39; before the pack arrived on the front straight, and that&#39;s what counts (although the view we see doesn&#39;t show us where Andy in the moments just before the gree comes out).

While the Starter and Start judges may be looking at the pack as they come down the hill, there is no way they make any judgements about &#39;advancing a position&#39; etc. before the pack has arrived on the front straight, and if you asked them, they would likely say "that&#39;s absurd...no way". I&#39;ve been in that Start Tower, and have been a Start Judge there, and that&#39;s how I would react.

At some tracks, P1 is given explicit instructions on the grid by a Steward to &#39;maintain the speed of the pace car&#39;, and any deviation from that is actionable. Slow down excessively, screw around and accordion the field, etc. are all things that annoy us all, and get you extra special attention from the Pace Car, Starter & Stewards.

I know P1 cars have been penalized for jumping a start (happened to a friend of mine), and others that have been penalized for balking a start. Neither seems to be the case here.

JW
IT/SM/SRF commando, rarely on pole (but it does happen !), usually mid-pack meat (200+ race starts...)
SCCA Steward
...& All-Around Swell Guy

[dickita15]

...& All-Around Swell Guy
[/b]
maybe they can perscribe something for that swelling. :)

[Jeremy Billiel]

How many cars ended up showing for the weekend?

[Andy Bettencourt]

How many cars ended up showing for the weekend? [/b]

&#39;Bout 175.

[wdether]

&#39;Bout 175.
[/b]

I think the break even number was about 230 - 235.

[Eagle7]

&#39;Bout 175.

[/b]

Hear any talk of how many of them might come to Mid-O if there&#39;s no schedule conflict?

[Tkczecheredflag]

Andy, Tim

Don&#39;t take any of this personal:

Andy, I always hate to admitt when you are right!! :D But I think you were OK. You seemed to quickly get off the gas and let Richie catch up. It even seem as Richie was getting onto the straight, he gave it a "little" blip that put him ahead.

Tim (Mr Stone Thrower), you&#39;ve been known to hold back on the starts and end up getting a good run at the start!! :018: :D :D
I&#39;ve certainly seen much worse!!
[/b]
Jeff - Please re-read the thread - There were no stones available to be thrown. The comment was purely and observation and that has now taken on a life of it&#39;s own. I will reiterate that in no way did it effect the outcome of the race - Andy drove a great race as I previously stated - Although I found the start a bit odd - that&#39;s all, just and observation not a critizism. As a result it has caused us to debate it the protocol. I would be the first to admit (and did so in this thread) that every advantage should be taken to get a good start. If you feel I have created some unfair advantage or performed poorly at previous race starts, I would be compelled to post all of my starts this season, for all to review, and will if I am asked to do so. Truth be told I am just a great starter (FA, if I don&#39;t say so myself) - It&#39;s the rest of the race I have trouble with. :rolleyes:

Hope you had fun in Ohio - We await the posts of your adventure.

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound [/b]

Someday Grasshopper. Someday. :P

[dominojd]

Andy - I still want to know about the Oreo cookie and milk in Impound
[/b]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. :) Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats.

[Tkczecheredflag]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. :) Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats.
[/b]
Hey Joe - Welcome back.

Good guess. Sorry I missed the opportunity to congratulate Andy at the track.

Congrats to Andy B - 2007 NARRC Champ - Nicely done.

What did the priest say - "snatch the cookie from my hand Grasshooper". - and then what happened - did he smack Grasshooper in the head? B)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I&#39;m gonna take a guess on this one and will probably be right. When you win the Indy 500 they drink the milk. Well Andy has won the Narrc championship so in comparision to the Indy 500 that would be childs play and would be milk and cookies. :) Let me know if I am close there Champ. Congrats. [/b]

The Oreo is a little joke within the team - this time it just came with Milk...

[wepsbee]

To TKczecheredflag
I am the new guy in the blue ford escort. I appreciate the comment about trying to stay out of your way during the race. It was my first race and I did worry about getting in the way of the guys who have doing it awhile. One of my nighmares was wrecking someone else during the race. I plan on becoming more aggresive as I obtain some experience. But it is nice to know someone else noticed I was trying. Thanks to all and see you next year. Sorry about the long delay in answering but I just found out about the website.