New Opinions on Shocks?

[IPRESS]

How much will DBL ADJUST. shocks help you?

[tnord]

well.....i think there's potential for benefit, but it depends more on the user than the shock itself.

if you're someone that can really feel what the car is doing, and willing to piddle with the settings......then yes. i would say double adjustable shocks could give you measureable gains. but if you don't have butt sensors that acute, i think they could end up hurting you as you chase your tail around.

i'm not sure what bowie has down in the SE, but whatever he has seems to work. if i were you Mac i'd just call Lee Grimes at Koni, he'll be able to match something up with your car and how much effort you want to spend on set up.

[RSTPerformance]

Mac-

We ran Koni double adjustable shocks for several years in the Audi's and Lee Grimes help us a lot. He is a great guy and certainly himself and the company made every possible effort to give us a product that would work. Unfortunatly the design of our suspension did not work wel with a "plug and play" shock/strut application they were able to supply for a reasonable price. Because we had so many strut failures we were unable to play much with the adjustability. Since then we have switched to Bilstiens, and despite not having adjustability we have noticed that with the strut properly valved you will get great results and do not need to make adjustments. Bilstien has also proven to be a great company to work with.

Raymond "Recomendatoins are: Properly valved Bilstiens" Blethen

[IPRESS]

Come on Travis, call a spade a spade. You know I have no feel at all! You should have been honest and said "In your case it is a waste of money cause you don't even adjust your tire pressures except Friday afternoon before the race weekend!"
But thanks for trying to be a nice guy and not hurt my feelings.
Now if you wanted to be a big help, you could study up on it and adjust them for me if I got some. :D

I am wondering if my present valving (revalved & shortened SM shocks) and shorter rods are the best setup.

[lateapex911]

On the other hand,.......

If you were to call Lee Grimes of Koni, (or talk to him in Mid Ohio at the IT fest), you might decide that double adjutables are a good way to go, but approach them in stages.

Stage one: Tell them your spring rate (wheel rate) and have them set you up so that the middle of the adjustment range matches your current setup.

Stage two: Drive, drive, drive, and develop feel

Stage three: For whatever reason, new springs, certain handling traits, whatever, you can adjust them and see what happens. If worse comes to worse, put them back in the middle.

the key is starting in the right spot, and Lee can help you determine exactly what that might be.

If you go this route, the car will be worth more at resale, and you have more room to grow.

[JeffYoung]

Just dealt with Koni on having my rear shocks convertible to external double adjustable, and the fronts to single, and matched to my spring rates. First class folks, and great work. Highly recommend talking to them, and using them make the next step up in shocks.

[tnord]

Come on Travis, call a spade a spade. You know I have no feel at all! You should have been honest and said "In your case it is a waste of money cause you don't even adjust your tire pressures except Friday afternoon before the race weekend!"
But thanks for trying to be a nice guy and not hurt my feelings.
Now if you wanted to be a big help, you could study up on it and adjust them for me if I got some. :D

I am wondering if my present valving (revalved & shortened SM shocks) and shorter rods are the best setup.
[/b]


i'd be happy to help you mac.....especially at the dbl pts race in october. i'll give you all the advice you need. full soft on compression, full stiff on rebound. yes, that's all the advice you'll ever need. :blink: :o

i really doubt your present valving and shorter rods (sure you don't mean shortened bodies?) are the best setup. if you're still on on the SM spec spring rates, you're definitely not on the ideal setup. that is probably the best advice i can give you on this deal, is to get settled on a spring rate (or at least a narrow range of rates) that you'll be using before you go spending the money on better shocks. :eclipsee_steering:

[IPRESS]

tnord,
I bought these on the black market in Calcutta from a reformed fence. I was told they had been used expertly in SM battles for two weekends. I think the old shock measuring thread on the SM board hastened their availability for sale. :D The valving is maybe a little stronger then the SM valving and I think you are right about the bodies being shorter.
That advice you were throwing my way ...... ummmm, maybe I will just go with what I got now. :023:

[x-ring]

tnord,
I bought these on the black market in Calcutta from a reformed fence. I was told they had been used expertly in SM battles for two weekends. I think the old shock measuring thread on the SM board hastened their availability for sale. :D The valving is maybe a little stronger then the SM valving and I think you are right about the bodies being shorter. [/b]

You should have seen the looks on their faces when, in post qualifying impound at the runoffs, I said 'You, you, you, you and you, we'll need your right rear shock. Remove it please while we watch and give it to Jeremy, who's standing over there by the shock dyno.'

One guy's crew chief didn't even wait until I was done talking beofre he walked out. He returned about 15 minutes later with four brand new Bilstien boxes under his arm. Priceless.

[tnord]

You should have seen the looks on their faces when, in post qualifying impound at the runoffs, I said 'You, you, you, you and you, we'll need your right rear shock. Remove it please while we watch and give it to Jeremy, who's standing over there by the shock dyno.'

One guy's crew chief didn't even wait until I was done talking beofre he walked out. He returned about 15 minutes later with four brand new Bilstien boxes under his arm. Priceless.
[/b]

i was in there thursday for teardowns. i remember getting the phone calls wed about everyone that had been booted. looking back on it all, it's pretty funny.

[ddewhurst]

***You should have seen the looks on their faces when, in post qualifying impound at the runoffs, I said 'You, you, you, you and you, we'll need your right rear shock. Remove it please while we watch and give it to Jeremy, who's standing over there by the shock dyno.'***

***i was in there thursday for teardowns. i remember getting the phone calls wed about everyone that had been booted. looking back on it all, it's pretty funny.***

I viewed the same stuff going on at the Runoffs with the Spec Miata folks & had I had a Spec Miata being given the same SHIT they were given the car would have been on the trailer (not that anyone would have cared).......... The whole deal from my perspective was sicking.

I can suggest another Runoffs class that just as many cars would be given the boot except that the SCCA has NO BACK BONE & they would NEVER check this suggested class. For this class when they have an illegal issue they change the rule making the illegal issue legal. ;) ;) ;)

[IPRESS]

David,
There is a lot of truth in what you say. SM is under the microscope for things that several classes suffer from. In those classes there seems to be a look the other way attitude. SM has a ton of fairly new racers that are not schooled in the ways of "national racing". Then there are those who are tough old vets that know how the game is played and how to ride the edge. With so many people involved there are a lot of SM voices. I try to tell those guys that they don't need or should want any special treatment. What is good for one class should be good for all. Last year was a statement year for SM. It was pretty cool that all six of the cars in the shed at the end of the race were deemed legal. The guys that race it (SM) need to accept that the Officals that police the class are dealing with a very imperfect spec situation. Even with that, it may be the most successful class of all time. They are just great little sports cars.
What do you think would have been the final results if each class had the sort of inspection that SM had? (Other then The Runoffs would have been over at Thanksgiving!)

Mac

[x-ring]

I viewed the same stuff going on at the Runoffs with the Spec Miata folks & had I had a Spec Miata being given the same @#$% they were given the car would have been on the trailer (not that anyone would have cared).......... The whole deal from my perspective was sicking.
[/b]


Dave –

Please explain to me what you’re talking about. Not trying to be confrontational here, I really want to know. If I don’t know what the problems are I sure can’t do anything about them.

Do you feel that I looked at too may items, too few items, or the wrong items? Is the problem you have with the penalties handed out? If so, please understand that I have no control over that. I measure and report my findings; after that it goes to the one of the first courts. After that the competitor can, of course, appeal either the findings or the penalty.

The feedback I got from the SM community during, and after, the runoffs last year was overwhelmingly positive, on the tech side anyway. If you believe I was going about something the wrong way, or looking at the wrong things, I need to know about it. Some of the things I looked at turned out to be non-issues, and a waste of everyone’s time. Some things were big problems. I’m also sure there were things I should have looked at but didn’t.

I’m working on the impound lists for this year right now, and I'm behind the curve. Please tell me what you think I should do differently this year. I’m not saying that I’ll implement all, or any, of your suggested checks, but I guarantee you that if you tell me what you think I’ll consider it. The chief steward and the chief of tech have given me pretty free reign on what I look at, so if you convince me it’s worth doing, we’ll probably be able to get it done.

You won’t be the only person offering their opinion. Members of the SMAC have contacted me, as have a number of folks racing in the class. I listen to each and every one, and appreciate the effort they take to give me their, usually well reasoned, opinion. If you would rather take this off line send me a PM and I’ll give you my email address and phone number.

We were pretty aggressive with the SM group last year, responding to requests from both within and outside that community to either confirm or refute the persistent and well known rumors that ‘almost everyone in SM is cheating’.

After looking at more than half the field last year there are two things I’d like to point out: During qualifying, when we pulled cars at random, we found areas of non-compliance in three of ten cars, on average. Post race, when we looked at the top six much closer than we had up to that point, the cars were pretty clean. We found one issue that the stewards decided was too minor to pursue, and the other five were squeaky clean (at least in the areas I looked at). There may be some cheatin’ going on in SM, but not so much at the pointy end of the field. If you want to know what the issue was, if you don't by now, it's all over on SM.com. The 'guilty' party came completely clean about it.



I can suggest another Runoffs class that just as many cars would be given the boot except that the SCCA has NO BACK BONE & they would NEVER check this suggested class. For this class when they have an illegal issue they change the rule making the illegal issue legal. ;) ;) ;)
[/b]

I do have the ear of the chief, and if you’ll fill me in on what class you’re talking about, and what the problems are, either publicly or in private, I’ll pass them along. No one in tech wants to see competitors driving non-compliant cars, and I'm a bit puzzled as to why you believe there is a class we would never check.

Rule changes are, of course, not within tech’s job description, and I’ll not share what I think about any particular last minute rule change. In general, it can go either way. Sometimes a last minute change corrects a wrong that should have been corrected earlier, but wasn’t for some reason. Sometimes a rule is changed at the last minute for a less noble reason. Either way, that’s not my bag.

[x-ring]

There is a lot of truth in what you say. SM is under the microscope for things that several classes suffer from. In those classes there seems to be a look the other way attitude. [/b]

I can’t comment on other classes, my hands were full with just the one…


SM has a ton of fairly new racers that are not schooled in the ways of "national racing". [/b]

Absolutely true. Post race, how many of those six we pulled in do you suppose were prepared to remove their engine for inspection?


Then there are those who are tough old vets that know how the game is played and how to ride the edge [/b]

There’s not as many of those as one might think. There are, however, more than a few that are willing to hire out work to the ‘old vets that know … how to ride the edge.


What is good for one class should be good for all. [/b]

I can’t argue with that. Are you interested in volunteering this year? :blink:


The guys that race it (SM) need to accept that the Officials that police the class are dealing with a very imperfect spec situation. [/b]

Can’t argue with that either, but then again I’m not a rule maker (did I say that already?).


What do you think would have been the final results if each class had the sort of inspection that SM had? (Other then The Runoffs would have been over at Thanksgiving!) [/b]

I can’t speculate about other classes, I was too busy to pay attention to them, but I can tell you my a$$ was dragging by Sunday evening…

[tnord]

i wouldn't worry about it ty.

as you mentioned, the overwhelming response was very positive regarding tech at the runoffs. there was a little inconsistency and discussion over what the penalties should be that were handed out, but that has nothing to do with you guys.

i was there thurs at 8am through the last race sunday, and spent the better part of thurs afternoon in the shed helping out. even the ones i talked to that had their times thrown out (most commonly for the shock thing, which we can all blame danels for :P ) were happy about the way things went.

my suggestions for this year would be to check for piston coatings of a certain builder, hand out more sealed ECUs, check cams on the 1.8s as i've heard these guys finally found a way to get some made, and look for microfinishing on the gears. the last one would SUCK to get checked....but hey, i don't think it was inspected last year, and i KNOW people used to treat them.

[ddewhurst]

***Please explain to me what you’re talking about.***

Ty, what's sicking (sp?) is that the Spec Miata cars were there with parts laying all over the place while other classes that I viewed in the shed got a gloss over. I was in the shed two times over the course of the week with a Production car. If the same effort was put to the Production cars that was put to the Spec Miata's I would consider all was fair. BUT that ain't what happened or will happen this year. :D

***i wouldn't worry about it ty.***

WRONG Travis, if yer part of the tech shed YOU ALL should be concerned what the competitors believe about WHO was treated with a micro scope & WHO received the gloss over. :D

What happened when the Production Miatas had welded/brazed throttle body shafts ? :018:

What happened when a SOMEONE protested ALL (IIRC 13 cars) the Prodution cars with with fuel injection ? :018:

What happened that two same model cars were in the tech shed one had an illegal suspension comonent that was deemed legal & the other car with an adjustment to the same suspension component had paper written by none other than Mr. T. :018:

What happened that one podium car couldn't produce fuel through the mandatory fuel sample outlet & fuel was taken by another means ? :018:

What happened to the NEW H Production car after the Runoffs that was allowed to do the Runoffs ? If I need to name the car it's to no avail. :018:

Do I need to name the class that needs some serious scrutiny ?

Guys, I ain't looking to argue BUT fair is fair. ;) & that's the stuff that's on the tip of my tongue. :D

[ScotMac]

Wow!!! Talk about a hornets nest...

To get back to shocks...

How about those dbl adj shocks? ie, for normal IT (where i believe they are legal). Anyone tried QA1's? I really like their adjustability and their dyno reports. Are they worth the expense (~$500 for DA's)?

[IPRESS]

Ty,
You mistook what I was saying as being negative to your crew. That is the opposite of what I thought. The SM tech was fine, but the depth of it may have been meant for the future. (Some thought the PTB took the "bait" JD threw out in a specmiata.com post and he wasn't even involved in the race. The post was printed and posted on the cars in Tech during the teardown) I am sort of with Dave in that other classes should have equal depth in their Tech. Part of my feelings on this are due to an ownership feeling you get when you are at the start of something. I see SM as a great club racing class..... but even though I helped get it going it is just one of many classes. The folks running it should get the same treatment as the other classes. (Last year being the first year in national competition the indepth teardown was great. This year if it happens again, fine... but for all things to be equal some other classes should go under the same amount of scrutiny. )
As far as 5 out of 6 being legal I was pretty sure it was 6 out 6 and the washer deal wasn't deemed illegal. I think you said as much above.
There are plenty of seasoned folks running along the edge. Some of them you see on TV every now and then. As you say there are plenty of new blood guys willing to spend for that edge also.
I think what David is saying is put some of those other classes through the same treatment for two weeks as far as checking cars and percentage wise SM will be as clean as most. One thing the other classes have in some respects is some racers that know how to work the politics of the Runoffs. All that paper filed and posts pinned on the boards covered a lot of classes. What was everybody talking about? SM and the Tech shed after every session. As a whole I would think the class came away looking pretty good.

As far as volunteering.... I've got 4 daughters, they just finished college and law $chool.... three more wedding$ to pay for.... on top of that I have an addiction problem that is worse on the pocket book then a meth habit........CLUB RACING :wacko: !!!!!!
I'm either working, racing or robbing liquor stores with a ski mask on.

So... anything you do is really much better then what us non volunteers do, so it is not personal. Actually it was great last year, just other classes Tech needs to catch up to you guys.

Mac


ScotMac,
Where do you get info on them?

[IPRESS]

If I still had my old 442 those guys would be able to fix me up. They don't mak'em for no stinking Mazdas! :P

[tnord]

what does ty have to do with production class tech shed stuff?

you should be talking to jeremy about that, not ty. also, SM is so popular and there are so many well versed people with these cars, it makes it much easier to come up with defined specs to check compared to a 1975 MG Healy TR Spridget with a rather open ruleset that leaves much to interpretation.

[ddewhurst]

Please don't anyone get their undies all bunched up cause you'll choke Herman. I appreciate everything all volenteers do for the SCCA. I attempted to get involved via an open rules meeting untill someone LONG established suggested that being that I was a new comer to "THE" SCCA I might serve better to stand back & learn. I been around race cars most my life & I don't need to stand back to people who are missing solid points. :D

***what does ty have to do with production class tech shed stuff?***

Ty posted a pretty open ended message. :D

***you should be talking to jeremy about that, not ty.***

Did you miss this previous point included below. Mr. T would be Jeremy....... :D I ain't saying Jeremy is bad, but he don't have a grip on everything. Both cars mentioned below were illegal per the written rule so how the smell is one legal & the other illegal.

>>>What happened that two same model cars were in the tech shed one had an illegal suspension comonent that was deemed legal & the other car with an adjustment to the same suspension component had paper written by none other than Mr. T.<<<

Now, back to shocks. Mac, if you google QA1 you will find all the info you&#39;ll need. ;)

[IPRESS]

Please don&#39;t anyone get their undies all bunched up cause you&#39;ll choke Herman. I appreciate everything all volenteers do for the SCCA. I attempted to get involved via an open rules meeting untill someone LONG established suggested that being that I was a new comer to "THE" SCCA I might serve better to stand back & learn. I been around race cars most my life & I don&#39;t need to stand back to people who are missing solid points. :D

***what does ty have to do with production class tech shed stuff?***

Ty posted a pretty open ended message. :D

***you should be talking to jeremy about that, not ty.***

Did you miss this previous point included below. Mr. T would be Jeremy....... :D I ain&#39;t saying Jeremy is bad, but he don&#39;t have a grip on everything. Both cars mentioned below were illegal per the written rule so how the smell is one legal & the other illegal.

>>>What happened that two same model cars were in the tech shed one had an illegal suspension comonent that was deemed legal & the other car with an adjustment to the same suspension component had paper written by none other than Mr. T.<<<

Now, back to shocks. Mac, if you google QA1 you will find all the info you&#39;ll need. ;)

I did and as soon as I go circle track those shock people will be my first call.

This is the last time I start a shock thread... it is way too easy for it to get in to bad ju ju situation with that type of topic. :P From now on I am asking nothing but non controversial questions! :o
[/b]

[tnord]

Did you miss this previous point included below. Mr. T would be Jeremy....... :D I ain&#39;t saying Jeremy is bad, but he don&#39;t have a grip on everything.
[/b]

you&#39;re right, Jeremy *doesn&#39;t* have a grip on everything for every class. there&#39;s no way he could, he&#39;s one man doing the job of about 30.

[ddewhurst]

***From now on I am asking nothing but non controversial questions! :o ***

Ok :023:

[ScotMac]

Thanks for the replies. I actually know about the generic material on the web about QA1s...in fact, i own a pair on the car i am building. Problem is, i have not actually driven them, let alone raced them, and was considering them for my ITB car.

Was wondering if anyone had specific knowledge of how well they work for SCCA/IT road racing, whether the huge amount of adjustabilty (576 independent adjustment pts) is useful, and whether the price is good (~$500/pair for the DA&#39;s).

[ScotMac]

Oh, and here is some of the generic material on the QA1&#39;s:

Website QA1 (http://www.qa1.net/)

And here is the dyno chart (2nd page of pdf) QA1 Dyno (http://www.qa1.net/pdf_files/drag_racing_street_performance.pdf)