Value in creating a new heavily entry level / budget focused category?

[gran racing]

Would there be value in creating a new entry level category? This probably won’t be a very popular idea at first thought, but I am interested in doing a bit of further brainstorming about it. Others have also mentioned similar ideas. Give some thought to this a bit before jumping to your conclusions.

While I will bring the idea of IT becoming a national class, that really shouldn’t be the center of this discussion. That said, there has been much discussion about IT becoming a national class. I am confident this will increase the barriers to entry (even if just perceptions) and hurt the category’s status as “entry level”. Within our current structure, I am not in favor of this move. I then look at how it will impact ME, and really do not like the idea as things stand. At the same time, I have tried to open myself up and acknowledge the benefits for the club as a whole making IT a national class. It would also be possible for this new category / class structure to exist if IT stayed regional. These cars would run with their IT cousins’ run groups.

The idea of this new category would be to utilize a rule set blend between IT and showroom stock. Essentially it would be viewed as show room stock “older and cheaper” or IT-STOCK. Utilize the safety requirements of IT cars, stock engine, stock suspension, stock ECU, and a few bolt-on goodies. Also allow the gutting of the car’s interior as allowed with an IT car.

Cars would be classed with the weights they are in IT. I recognize that cars are classed as they would respond to a build in IT trim and some cars are better stock than others, but that couldn’t be a focus for this category.

The key to this would be to create enough disincentives for people to spend much money in the racecar and truly make this class budget friendly. What could be done to disincent people from spending much money in this category? I’m not entirely sure. A few things that come to mind include: no track records, no victory laps, truly recognizing this as an entry level / budget friendly category... Any other ideas? (I do not like the idea of claim rules.)

One argument I foresee hearing is “We do not need more race classes – we already have too many.” Maybe it is time to slowly eliminate a few of these classes even if through natural extinction? There is most definitely a place for an entry level category within the SCCA, whether it continue to be IT or a newly formed category.

Like I said, it has just been something I’ve been brainstorming about a bit and this just represents some of my initial thoughts.

[shwah]

The last thing the SCCA needs is more road racing classes. (as predicted by you - but oh so true!)

IT is a budget category.

Winner is not a budget class, regardless of the category.

If IT were to become national, why change regional? If national/regional distinction disappears, the point is moot.

[RSTPerformance]

Dave... get out the original IT rules and forget about all the "rules creep" over the past 20 years that has occured and you will get the class you are thinking of :)

Stop changing IT and keep it as an intro class and we would not need to worry about adding a new entry level class.

Raymond

[Knestis]

...The key to this would be to create enough disincentives for people to spend much money in the racecar and truly make this class budget friendly. ...[/b]

Sorry Dave (et al.) - your argument moves from an inaccurate presumption. The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. Spec Miata rules are VERY restrictive but people still spend bundles on their cars. And on testing. And on tires. And DA. And coaching. And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.

Money gets spent because people WANT to spend it.

The kind-of-good news is that it's still possible in IT to out-race some of the out-spenders. We've been around and around this conversation since I joined SCCA and to this day, the ONLY solution to budget wars is a claim rule, which will never fly with this crowd.

And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?

K

EDIT - ...and this coming from a die-hard anti-creeper. I just don't buy that budgets and rules are correlated.

[924Guy]

...And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.
[/b]

Now THAT sounds like the best argument I've yet heard to take IT National!!! :OLA:

:023:

[gran racing]

The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. [/b]

I agree with what you're saying, but do think there are things that can be done to deter this that are dictated by the category. Maybe that's as little as not making it very prestigeous to win. It's just something I've been giving some thought to.

[zracre]

Kirk, I agree partially...rules and budget do go together....the more restrictive the rules the more expensive the trophy. Spec miata is a prime example and a model of what would happen if IT went national. It would be great for the club as boatloads of money would be spent and lots of bling would be in the paddock...but they would be taking us little guys that substitute race tires for meals and putting us at the back (or middle) of the pack. IT is very popular. Add national status and watch the calamity! We just saw it with SM so expect the same routine. 20 years from now we will be calling IT the same way we are calling Prod today. IT would be fun as a national class if we could keep the players and add new ones but it does not work that way. Everyone is not rich. Most run IT for fun.










Sorry Dave (et al.) - your argument moves from an inaccurate presumption. The motivation to spend money does NOT come from the rules - it come from competition. Spec Miata rules are VERY restrictive but people still spend bundles on their cars. And on testing. And on tires. And DA. And coaching. And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.

Money gets spent because people WANT to spend it.

The kind-of-good news is that it's still possible in IT to out-race some of the out-spenders. We've been around and around this conversation since I joined SCCA and to this day, the ONLY solution to budget wars is a claim rule, which will never fly with this crowd.

And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?

K

EDIT - ...and this coming from a die-hard anti-creeper. I just don't buy that budgets and rules are correlated.
[/b]

[JoshS]

Most run IT for fun.[/b]
And you think most club racers in other classes/categories do it for some other reason?

We all club race for fun, especially those who run regionals ... especially those who run regionals when the class is eligible for nationals.

[dick elliott]

Nick Craw did just that in the late 80's with one of the Long Beach Toyota. Payed 25 big ones to run in a upstart IT class. There will ALWAYS be a Nick with money to burn.


"And Raymond - do you seriously believe that a person couldn't spend $100K/year running a race car built to the 1983 ITCS? If their deep pockets allowed it and their competitive desires motivated them to do so?"

[Despr8dave]

Am I missing something here? I started racing IT in 1991. I thought my ITC 510 was pretty entry budget level......a whole lot less expensive than my full race mini-stock. An engine rebuild cost less than the machine work on a 2300 Ford. I thought that was the sole purpose of IT. Of course we ran against the guys who built IT cars for a living and eventually ended up in Trans Am....But most of us ran cars that were basically stripped out street cars with roll cages and suspension up grades. In those days we had to keep the damn headliner and passenger seats in. I paid $2200 for the complete race prepared car, a complete running parts car and a trailor full of parts from five other 510s!! (1991 dollars and frugal owner). Now that the IRS, ex wife, car and various other expences are over, I'm dieing to get my ole fat rear back in a race car. But heck, I can buy a very used GTO class late model stock car with full tube chassis for what I'm seeing a used IT car for. I really like that 500+hp and full race "slick" gumballs I can buy for $110 each, fiberglass bodies etc. I will never be competitive against the money boys, but I'll be going so fast I could care less. I never finished higher than second in IT, ususally ran mid pack anyway. I've been fortunate enough to get to race a GTO car and it was quiet the experience. No offense, but if you want to go national, change classes. Keep (or get back to) what IT was started for. JMHO

David
ITC 510
USST Chevy Silverado GTO

[bhudson]

Perhaps we're longing for the "good old days" of IT when the class was first formed. A few big spenders had max-to-the-rules cars, some (including me) had marginally prepared cars, and most were somewhere in between but tended to gravitate toward the front end of the grid over the years. Practically every category in club racing has experienced this.

The truth is, the category has grown, and there is a certain amount of "me too" when it comes to the latest development, running the test day at every event, buying new tires more often, etc.

I believe it's still possible to have fun in IT with a "less than maximum" car. There's just fewer people who want to run at that level than in the past.

[JLawton]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine..........


I'm with you on this one Dave. I wish I could spend a whole lot less and be at the pointy end (or at least SEE the pointy end!! :D ) I don't think there is a good answer though......

You can always go down to the indoor kart track?? ;)

[RSTPerformance]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine..........
[/b]

Good idea!!! lol

Anything with cords showing works for me... :) Although I would have to be careful not to steel all my street tires away :wacko:




I wish I could spend a whole lot less and be at the pointy end (or at least SEE the pointy end!! :D ) I don't think there is a good answer though......

[/b]

You could have stayed in "B" but you new even with the small dollars you couldn't get to the front :cavallo:

[gran racing]

I went to the indoor kart track and got my butt kicked by some kid. Then again, it made me feel better to see Jake Gulick get beat by my wife. :OLA:

My concern isn't about right now, but more in line of what the future will bring us and trying to be proactive about that. Currently, I am very happy with the state of IT. I've given tought about IT going national and the ramifications (good & bad) that would have for the club as a whole. I have wondered if I was able to put how that would impact me personally aside, having IT become a national category might really help our club. Here I said it wasn't about a pro/con of IT going national or not? LOL I'm a bit nervous about what road IT will go even if it is for the better of the club. Maybe that's a bit selfish, but then again it is our club too. I should stop thinking about this stuff before my brain implodes. :blink: It's time to think about easier stuff like planning ways I might be able to beat Ray at Ohio. :happy204:

[gsbaker]

How about running a spec crappy tire and limit the width? Your grip and power will be limited to what those tires can take. No sense running a $5K suspension and a $10K engine...[/b]
A local circle track group has a class called "Strictly Stock", and they mean it. Street tires and no mods except for mandated removal of all glass. Guys will drive a beater to the track, take a hammer to the windows, don a helmet and they are good to go.

[ggnagy]

Hmmmm... original idea seems alot like the WDCR SRX7 rules. Only difference is, start with SS rules, add "trunk kit" and rip out interior. One of the best cars in the class can't sell for 5k here. Spec out an equivalant "trunk kit" for a bunch of other ITA/ITB cars to start and there ya go.

[Joe Harlan]

Whats funny is IT came from wanting a place to race outdated SS type cars, IT is a entry level catagory as long as we don't let rules divide the bottom from the top by too much. I don't think you will ever stop 100k from being spent on any car if the money is there. But our rules should make 100k effort unique rather than required. A proper rules set would say spend all the money you want but at some point there is no return on investment. If a fully developed ITScar takes 30k to build then a 100k effort should not make it necessarily any better if the rules are written right.

Our system should also include that when you are done in IT and you want to spend more money and go faster that there is another set of classes to move to rather than constantly changing the rules here to move the performance window up a level.

[Despr8dave]

Whats funny is IT came from wanting a place to race outdated SS type cars, IT is a entry level catagory as long as we don't let rules divide the bottom from the top by too much. I don't think you will ever stop 100k from being spent on any car if the money is there. But our rules should make 100k effort unique rather than required. A proper rules set would say spend all the money you want but at some point there is no return on investment. If a fully developed ITScar takes 30k to build then a 100k effort should not make it necessarily any better if the rules are written right.

Our system should also include that when you are done in IT and you want to spend more money and go faster that there is another set of classes to move to rather than constantly changing the rules here to move the performance window up a level.
[/b]


yeah, what Joe said!

[RSTPerformance]

I went to the indoor kart track and got my butt kicked by some kid. Then again, it made me feel better to see Jake Gulick get beat by my wife. :OLA:

It's time to think about easier stuff like planning ways I might be able to beat Ray at Ohio. :happy204:
[/b]

lol about Jake... :birra: As for the other comment... don't waste your time on Ohio... :eclipsee_steering:



yeah, what Joe said!
[/b]

:happy204:

Raymond

[gran racing]

As for the other comment... don't waste your time on Ohio..[/b]

You're absolutely right, it's a shoe in. Onto thinking about how I can beat the other ITB drivers attending the event. :o

[RSTPerformance]

You're absolutely right, it's a shoe in. Onto thinking about how I can beat the other ITB drivers attending the event. :o
[/b]

Yeah Like my brother...

[Knestis]

IT used to be cheap because it was new, not because the rules were different.

We didn't do a lot of the things we COULD do, because we didn't NEED to. Build an actual engine rather than run the one that was in it when you drove that Rabbit to school? No way. Spend money welding in a real rollcage when you could bolt in an Autopower in one Saturday, with time for beer breaks and trips to Ernst Hardware for more 3/8" drill bits? That would be silly. The guys up front could be there because they were the early adopters.

We also didn't have the opportunity to spend dough on things, because some of them just weren't available. Choice of diffs ($500-1000) - nope. Open or welded. Bin of 2.25" springs of different rates? Uh-uh. One set, off-the-shelf "race springs" for the stock-style Koni Sports. Bushings? What are bushings, again? You can't buy what isn't available, and pretty much none of us had the wherewithal to actually MAKE stuff.

Then that changed, gradually, as competition improved the quality of the front end of the grid. Competition. On the track and in the marketplace.

We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.

K

[tnord]

:happy204: :023:

i've never read a more accurate post on this board than Kirks. you could replace IT with SM and it would be just as true.

[gran racing]

I do agree with what you are saying Kirk, but still tend to believe there are ways to prevent people from wanting to spend much money in a particular class. This might not be the best example, but... In the autocross events that I've partipated in that utilize a novice class, they like being there for a little while then want to play with the other drivers. Basically it involves creating a place where there is no (or very little) prestigue in winning those classes. I'm having a difficult time putting it into words effectively. When looking at a front running IT driver, it would be like "wow, they've got a well sorted out car and can drive the heck out of it." For this other group it would be "good driving. So when are you going to make the step up?" Some will say that exists now, but I don't see that being the case.

[Greg Amy]

Dave, you simply cannot create a class to keep people from spending as money as they want to win (keyword: "want"). 100+ years of motorsports history supports this.

You can't even do it with a spec class (e.g, Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford, etc).

You can't do it with Regional vs. National classifications (e.g., witness the money spent in IT, or money spent only on Regional races in dual-classed categories).

You can't do it with a claimer process (witness: money spent on a new engine every time one is claimed).

The *only* way to even *attempt* to do this is by the sanctioning body owning, maintaining, shipping, and leasing all vehicles (e.g., Barber series) but now you're talking expensive leasing fees for the driver.

See that keyword above, "want"? What you're asking is 'how do we have a competition where no one wants to be competitive?'

It's. Just. Not. Possible.

Example: Just wait 'til I get tired of spending money in ITA and decide to move to a class where the prep level is currently slightly less and there's some cherries available for picking.

Like ITC. Or maybe ITB...

Any debate on whether the pointy-end speed of the class will suddenly increase?

I'd love to discuss it with you over drinks.



...And transporters, hospitality, entertainment, web sites, graphics, uniforms, pit carts, hookers, booze, and big-screen plasma TVs.[/b]
There's big-screen TVs in Improved Touring...?

[charrbq]

Like ITC. Or maybe ITB...[/b]

Keep your uber-fast ass out of ITC! Next thing we know, you'd have a B210 out there kicking butt!



There's big-screen TVs in Improved Touring...?
[/b]
You didn't see the projection TV on the side of the trailer at the ARRC? It's there every year.

[JLawton]

There's big-screen TVs in Improved Touring...?
[/b]


TVs??? I don't recall any hookers either (and god knows I've looked!!). Of course, I've heard that if you throw Crazy Joe a few bucks he'll do just about anything!! Isn't there some video tape of him dancing????



Greg,
I think you should immediatly jump to ITC or ITB to test this theory.....And bring Bettencourt with you!!!

[DavidM]

We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.
[/b]

Spec Kia. How 'bout Show Room Stock Kia. A bolt in roll cage is the only thing you can add. We might even be able to get Kia to sponsor the series and pony up some cars. I'd sign up. A brand new Kia probably costs less than a lot of IT cars. It could double as a daily driver.

Might be better than spending several K for a new engine management system and then spending all my free time figuring out how to make it work.

David

[lateapex911]

Did someone mention autocross?

Ha! I decided to roadrace because I could have more fun for less money than autocrossing. Stock is the car of the year class, and modded gets expensive to mod, of course, and then you end up trailering your car everywhere.

Oh..and you get three runs of practice so it takes forever ...lots and lots of events, to get good.

I really really think IT IS entry level, but winning..well, THATS not entry level....

I have wondered about a "Rookie class" in SCCA though. It'd be really tough to manage though.

[benspeed]

Just no such thing as inexpensive racing. I agree with Greg - this is about competition and money will buy success. Maybe that's why we see some really well heeled folks in our sport - money can't make you run faster, shoot better or catch better. But it can make your car faster.

And based on the "creativity" of many driver/engineer/mechanics - folks will always be cooking up new ways to push the envelope. And that will force the rest of the pack to spend to keep up.

I was chuckling at one post on another thread where a driver of a carb car wanted to shed weight because EFI cars might get to replace the stock ECU. I'd only do that deal if they had to pay for each pound shed in a pro rata to the ECU spend :D

[gran racing]

Did someone mention autocross? [/b]

Jake, my reference to autocrossing was how they use the rookie class, not about the type of racing itself.

I also fully understand that if people become competitive in a class, no matter what the rules may be, people will find ways to spend money. I still think there are ways to further deter it though. Add no trophies into the mix? When all is said and done, this just might not be possible but that doesn't mean it isn't worth giving thought to from time to time. One never knows what new ideas might be generated.

[RSTPerformance]

Jake, my reference to autocrossing was how they use the rookie class, not about the type of racing itself.

I also fully understand that if people become competitive in a class, no matter what the rules may be, people will find ways to spend money. I still think there are ways to further deter it though. Add no trophies into the mix? When all is said and done, this just might not be possible but that doesn't mean it isn't worth giving thought to from time to time. One never knows what new ideas might be generated.
[/b]


I like your efforts on thinking dave, don't get me wrong.... but... No Trophies??? Trophies or not people would still be racing to win. I can remember several Pocono races where they never issued trophies (Still extremely bitter about it :mad1: ) but we still went back and raced just as hard the next year even though we didn't expect any trophies from that disfunctional region.

My brother and I used to not care where we finished overall (and we to a degree we still don't, but we have been known to help each other), we only cared about beating each other. So for what it is worth the class thought that you have already exists... the RX-7 guys do it in ITA, and I am sure that thier are several freindship battles/races that happen at every event that is not at the front of the pack. Remember when ITA raced for 2nd as first was unobtainable (Anthony Seira)?

Raymond

[Knestis]

TVs??? I don't recall any hookers either (and god knows I've looked!!). ...[/b]
Hey, man - it's not MY fault that you decided to race that plastic thing this year rather than hang out with us at enduros. :)

Don't take this personally, David but I get the sense you haven't been around this game very long. What you describe has been done (e.g., Renault Cup) and guess what? People figure out that they can spend money (within or beyond the rules) to go faster. Parker Johnstone explained that he won his Renault championship by spending what he would have on an underfunded Formula Atlantic program...

... AND THEY REBUILT THEIR ENGINES BETWEEN SESSIONS LIKE A FUNNY CAR TEAM because they figured out that the crappy wet-liner, o-ring sealed POS powerplants were losing compression with less than an hour running time.

I wrote a white-paper brief years ago for a proposal to a manufacturer, for a series that was like those "Cup" things, but an arrive-and-drive deal, where the cars got hauled from race to race in commercial car haulers, and drivers drew their cars from a hat. Guess what? Pretty much nobody liked the idea, for a few interesting reasons.

1. Like Greg mentioned, it seemed kind of expensive when all of a weekend's racing gets paid for on one check, rather than spread out over months and months.

2. Drivers like to own their cars. They (mistakenly, generally) feel like the hardware is an investment - like it's not really an expense.

3. Drivers WANTED to be able to engineer their individual advantages! Many just don't WANT a truly level playing field, or doubt that it will be level and are afraid that they'll draw the pooch. (This is a very real concern. They used to move the bodywork around on the Russell series car in an effort to bamboozle the drivers - who just started bribing the techs to help them get into the "hot cars.")

Now, if things have changed just let me know and I'll resurrect that idea. Call it Conover Motor Sports Spec Rabbit. You never turn a wrench, show up with your kit, pick your seat out of the semi, get fitted to the car, and go racing. Figure about $5000 per weekend if we could come up with 25 guys who'd sign a contract for the entire season.

K

[gran racing]

Right now we have exactly what we need. I suppose my effort should be on preserving that. Now more than ever am I against IT going national.

Ray, don't forget that I started off in ITA and had some awesome battles with Jake Fisher in his MR2. I'd like to see this type of racing preserved. In reading some of my posts again, I didn't do such a great job conveying where I was trying to go with some of this. Now, I have you to try and beat. :D

[msogren]

As soon as money or perceived fame is involved, the class turns into "star wars" I have seen the ministock class run for cash and the guys went nuts. The ice racers wanted better tires and ruined that by requiring 600$ worth of tires to see the front. This started the domino effect of more power, more suspension, rules creep, etc.way more money, the club died. , But the big money guys loved it.
I offered to set up a ITVW class , but the VW guys , want to out spend each other , as do most of the SCCA guys. I race on old spec racer tires, I went a 245; @ Sebring on Spec Ford tires!! For My ITB car.
National will just take the fun away from the few of us that just race for fun.

The best way to limit the cars and have the most fun is to spec a Tire Rack or Discount tire ,50$ 205/60 size tire. Maybe 300# springs too, to keep it soft and slow. easy on those cheap tires. Two seats. so that you can use the car for track days.
The speeds will be slow ,and the fun will be there . The racing will be very close. Run the window stickers and look like pros!! hey, didnt the Firehawk start like that??
I will convert myITB car to this class in the SE, pick a good tire. Any other VW ITB cars??
You can buy most ITB Golfs for less than 5K.
Mike Ogren

[Mike Guenther]

We already have a few economy classes like IT-7, ITC and ITB. It has been said many times that you can not stop someone from spending $50 grand on dyno testing for every little bit of motor change and track testing for every little bit of chassis change. But beyond that, these classes are really limited in what money spent has any return in speed.

The sheer joy of racing can be had for a couple of thousand dollars in these classes. Heck, you can have an adrenelin rush in ITS for $5-7 grand. Sure you won't be at the front, but you'll be racing some other great guys who appreciate the action in their part of the race.

But back to the topic. IT-7 and ITC cars can be purchased very economically and a great time can be had learning how to race and learning how to move toward the front of the pack. People with money will always be able to buy new tires more often, even weekly, and spend more on tuning. But these classes are about racing on a budget and getting your adrenelin fix for less than the cost of a heroin addiction.

I loved racing in IT-7. And when I started to get up towards the front more often I thought it was time to try to move up a class. I don't have the money to get as close to the front in ITS, but I've been having a ball with some great guys trying to race into the top ten. On a budget!

[shwah]

I offered to set up a ITVW class , but the VW guys , want to out spend each other .....


You can buy most ITB Golfs for less than 5K.
Mike Ogren
[/b]

Read those two lines again. They conflict a bit. Your idea didn't make sense to most of us, because most of our competition is VW already, and we are not - as a whole - spending big dollars. It was an answer to a question no one was asking - Where can I race a VW competitively without breaking the bank? That is because there is already an answer: ITB

[pballance]

I have been following this thread with great interest. As a relative newcomer I have experienced some of the very items discussed.

Let's face it, racing isn't cheap, never will be, and as others have said cubic dollars will produce a front running car no matter what the class or limitations.

I think we may be missing the point worring about the car/class more than the expectations of the new driver. My "win" is being on track with a bunch of guys to provide competition and going home at the end of the weekend with all of MY body parts and the car parts in the same shape (or very close) as I arrived in.

I can always find a race whether at the pointy end of the field or near the back. Bottom line for me is that it be fun. A budget racer can have fun without spending megabucks to be at the front. To date, and I do not keep accurate receipts, I have spent about 8k on a complete racing program. That includes updates to an S car, spares, new to me trailer, and tires. I could have done it a little cheaper but I chose not to.

I think the better question to ask is "What do I expect being a new driver?" or "What can we do to make a newcomer feel welcome and competitive?"

I surely don't expect to be at the front for the first race, the first 10 races or maybe even the first 50 races no matter how much money I spend on car or prep. I do expect to have fun, learn how to race, meet new people and make new friendships. But the bottom line is to have FUN.

The competitiveness of each one of us is apparent in the fact that we race. How badly we want win and how deep are our pockets dictates whether we run at the front no matter what the class. The idea of a "spec" type class is a good one but the reality is, as you guys have so aptly described someone always spends the cubic dollars to be at the front.

just my $.02 worth

[Mike Guenther]

Pballance,
nicely said. That is what club racing is all about.
I've heard it described as a beer club that uses racing as an excuse to have a party.

Be safe and have fun.

[Doc Bro]

The crux of the issue is not so much the development of new "budget" focused classes so much as the "cost" associated with racing. We do not need more classes IMO geared to the budget or entry level racer. Who wants to race for no trophy or no bragging rights? It'll NEVER happen. There's already a place for them.

What we need is a predictable stable set of rules so that your AVERAGE budget minded racer can feel PROTECTED by the rulebook- simply that he's not throwing his money away on efforts made to date (e36 ITS BMW comes to mind), only to have them change next season.

The rules creep and lack of stability in the philosophy of the class is what drives classes away from "entry level". What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine. Ruels change, costs change. It is the variability in the ruleset that introduces the variables in the racers budget. Keep one stable and the other becomes more predictable and vice versa.

R

[Knestis]

>> ...What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine.

Hunt up anyone who used to run F440 and ask them. :)

K

[ddewhurst]

***I do expect to have fun, learn how to race, meet new people and make new friendships. But the bottom line is to have FUN.***

***I've heard it described as a beer club that uses racing as an excuse to have a party (please insert "while drinking beer").

Be safe and have fun.***

***Have Fun ; )
David Dewhurst
CenDiv Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14***

I agree ^ with you guys 100%. Racing is about people who Have Fun. ;)

[DavidM]

What we need is a predictable stable set of rules so that your AVERAGE budget minded racer can feel PROTECTED by the rulebook- simply that he's not throwing his money away on efforts made to date (e36 ITS BMW comes to mind), only to have them change next season.

The rules creep and lack of stability in the philosophy of the class is what drives classes away from "entry level". What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine. Ruels change, costs change. It is the variability in the ruleset that introduces the variables in the racers budget. Keep one stable and the other becomes more predictable and vice versa.

R
[/b]

X2

Good post.

David

[msogren]

RE # 37, Chris. I was proposing a pro style of class management . The Mk 1 , 2 and 3 Vw would just get balanced so the racing was very close. This would reduce cost in the long run , because the winner would get some weight, and the super fast cars would get slowed down, negating a lot of dyno dollars,spec tires help.
Making the racing better, closer, and thus more fun.is what it is all about for me. the next level.
When the cars are even and slow , the drivers get better quick.
It cost about 10-20k to build a valid ITB VW. I spent about4K , as I have done it a few times and know what is usefull and what is just bling. The car is worth about 5k after you have spent 10.
There is a reason that the circle tracks start the high points guy in the rear. The racing is better, closer, stuff happens , and the spectators , as well as the drivers enjoy it!! My track can add weight if you kick butt every week, also.
IMHo ,it is a lot more fun to work for three laps for a pass, than to start out front and drive away, but I am old and have done that, now the racing is whats cool, the trophy shelf got thrown out.
Topic; I suggest to get a group of ITB VWs, agree on a tire and go at it.

Mike Ogren

[Z3_GoCar]

Only way to make this work is if you use a vehicle that no one makes any aftermarket parts for. I envision a series for mini-vans with all the glass removed. Caravan, Villager, MPV, Windstar, and for a little rear wheel drive the Astro. Allow open exhausts and strip the interior, a basic cage and that's it :happy204:

It'd be like tree top tall Me-otters. I already have run with a Ford Ranger in SP, sort of like a mini NASCAR craftsman truck B)

James

[Despr8dave]

IT used to be cheap because it was new, not because the rules were different.

We didn't do a lot of the things we COULD do, because we didn't NEED to. Build an actual engine rather than run the one that was in it when you drove that Rabbit to school? No way. Spend money welding in a real rollcage when you could bolt in an Autopower in one Saturday, with time for beer breaks and trips to Ernst Hardware for more 3/8" drill bits? That would be silly. The guys up front could be there because they were the early adopters.

We also didn't have the opportunity to spend dough on things, because some of them just weren't available. Choice of diffs ($500-1000) - nope. Open or welded. Bin of 2.25" springs of different rates? Uh-uh. One set, off-the-shelf "race springs" for the stock-style Koni Sports. Bushings? What are bushings, again? You can't buy what isn't available, and pretty much none of us had the wherewithal to actually MAKE stuff.

Then that changed, gradually, as competition improved the quality of the front end of the grid. Competition. On the track and in the marketplace.

We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.

K
[/b]
I agree with this view of it. But I like the idea of a mini van better than the Kia. You would not need to tow a trailor. You could carry avery thing in the van!

[NutDriverRighty]

In regard to F500, they're currently having test mules made for 600cc motorcycle engined cars being built. Jay Novak (of Novakar, Rakavon) has one that's about ready to test. Jack Walbran is also talking of making a Maverick/Scorpion into what they're calling an "F600". In regard to stable engine rules amongst F5, there have been quite a few "discussions" about the 493 vs. 494, the RAVE valve, etc. Seems that every class faces similar issues in regard to rules.

Have to agree that having fun is my biggest draw. Sure, I like to get a plaque/trophy, but the local trophy store sells them and will even name me 2007 F1 World Champion if I have the $. Being able to spend time with friends, have some friendly competition, and go at greater than highway speeds for the weekend is all the fun I need. :P

Scott

What about Scion Xb spec class, only allowing a designated street tire and a couple of TRD upgrades (catback, springs, strut tower braces). Could you imagine "The Great Toaster Races"?? Imagine the draft that this thing would throw down the back stretch at Road Atlanta! That is, if you could get it going fast enough to knock a hole in the air.

Scott
www.NutDriver.org

[shwah]

RE #44 Mike

I don't have 10 into mine, but had a lot of good advice about what works going into the build, am a cheap bastard and took time to gather the right parts at a deal, and do a lot myself. So I guess the whole cost thing is relative.

I am sure it is a regional thing, but it is not uncommon to have 4 or more ITB VWs covered by a second in our area. This is why the idea just doesn't strike me as compelling. Of course as I am preparing my car to be competitive in November that may change and I may come around to your way of thinking, when I get tired of racing with the ITA guys.

[Spinnetti]

Well, with the seemly endless rule changes to IT the last few years, and the slow decline of prod, why not just combine prod and IT, with different handicaps or something based on prep level? (i.e. extend the limited prep type rules)...

What about the stuff cal club has done over the years? I haven't looked closely at them, but IT-7 and there was an old Corolla class too - those seemed to be the right kind of direction?



Only way to make this work is if you use a vehicle that no one makes any aftermarket parts for. I envision a series for mini-vans with all the glass removed. Caravan, Villager, MPV, Windstar, and for a little rear wheel drive the Astro. Allow open exhausts and strip the interior, a basic cage and that's it :happy204:

It'd be like tree top tall Me-otters. I already have run with a Ford Ranger in SP, sort of like a mini NASCAR craftsman truck B)

James
[/b]


Once after an autocross, me and a dood who always whipped me raced our Astrovans - he whipped me in that too! - Gawd, what a nightmare that was! I can't imagine worse quality or worse dynamics than the Astro!