LRP announcement

[kevin22]

Looks like LRP may finally repave and do some other improvements. he will have to if his club idea is going to work. I don't think the mega rich will not hand him over money unless the facility improves.

http://www.limerockclub.com/media/pr_07_07_07.asp

someone should sign up for the tour to find out whats planned. I don't have time, I barely can get away to race. But I am curious if his plans will benefit the racers. or will it just be a bunch of B.S. to attract those with $. It would be nice to see a repave and garages, not a clubhouse with a swimming pool.

[lateapex911]

http://www.limerockclub.com/become_member/benefits.asp

Heres the list of benefits. Seems sketchy at this point.
IT costs:
$110,000.00 one time fee, good for 50 years, transferable or resellable, thru Lime Rock. 2008 monthy fee of $550.
You get:
12 peak track days (of 60 alotted to club use)
skidpad access
8 off peak track days
A new private members only pit lane and clubhouse
Off site vehicle storage
A view of the Berkshires
A badge for your cars grill
4 VIP tix to pro events
and some other mumbo jumbo.

Promised in the release were repaving, a clubhouse, a new and nicer entrance, and better bathrooms.

If he sells al 300 member spaces, he rakes in $30,000,000
and he generates $150,000 per month, for 2008. More later if rates go up...no cap is mentioned.

Now, if we take those track days per year and apply todays test day value of $250 to them, and multiply by 20, we get $3000 .
Add the storage, and lets be generous at $200 a month, x 12 = $2400
and the VIP passes for you and three friends, at ?$50 each x 3 events a year = $600
So thats about $6000 of "value" per year, at the current rates.

Over the life of the membership, it adds up to $300,000.00

but...interestingly enough, IF the monthy dues remain at $550, they add up to $330,000.00 over 50 years.

Now, I'm no accountant, but I have no interest in spending my $430,000 or so dollars over the next 50 years to get something thats questionable value at $300,000.

But thats just me. Maybe those with a few hundred thou laying around might see it differently. It's probably a good write off if you're a corporate entertainment type.

[Greg Amy]

Pardon my cynicism, but:

- LRP's got more demand for their products that they can possibly fill, and continue to raise the track rates with no loss of demand, and
- The track has steadily degraded over the last 15+ years, but this has not degraded the rapidly increasing demand for their product, and
- They're fishing for $30M in capital.

Now, if you were a businessman, and you had a product in high demand such that you could pretty much charge whatever you wanted for it regardless of the condition of the facilities, and someone handed you $30M in capital and said, "go use it to maximize your profits", how would you spend it?

That's what I thought.

The stated reason for the $30M fishing expedition - to keep the "value" of the property as a racetrack above its value for alternate uses - cannot be accomplished with capital improvements. The value of that property as a race track is simply its ability to generate revenue. As noted before, the crappy track surface has not stopped organizations from paying ever-increasing rental rates, thus has no affect on revenue. Ergo, despite what they may choose to use the capital infusion for, its best use for maintaining the value of the property above its value for alternate uses is to simply put it in the bank earning interest, and thusly increasing the value of the corporation in held assets (i.e., in order to buy the track to turn it into a golf course, you're going to also have to buy out the $30M-plus-interest bank account, immediately adding $30M-plus-interest in the purchase price).

So, I'm guessing the real reason is that ALMS (and other Pro organizations) are finally putting their collective feet down and telling LRP's staff that the track surface ABSOLUTELY SUCKS (I'm more sore today after the July 4th event than I've ever been racing), and unless they fix it they're going to lose their main gate-and-concessions-revenue-generating events. And, LRP's management is looking through the wallet, realizing they don't have the cash to cover that expense.

They tried the increase-the-track-rental trick, so the next best thing is for them to leverage their #1 asset: history, location, reputation.

Of course, one can actually easily argue that paving the track is a BAD idea for us grassroots competition clubs such as SCCA and NASA, because an improved racing surface would very likely result in further increasing demand, thus further increasing rental rates. One has to also keep in mind that an additional 60 days of demand will be removed from the calendar, to be reserved for "Club" members, thus tightening the ever-tight available track dates.

Finally, I'm extremely confident that this announcement is PURELY coincidental to the successful advancement of Palmer Motorsports Park (http://www.palmermotorsportspark.com/) - about an hour's drive away and probably a LOT easier to get to from Boston and even New York City - recently beginning to accept inquiries from capital investors from within the same demographics. One big difference here is, of course, PMP is not asking for a "revert-back-to-the-owner 50-year lease" with guaranteed ZERO chance of any return on investment; "join" LRP's club and that money is pissed away, dead, long gone, never to be seen again. PMP, on the other hand, is looking for investors interested in ownership of a track with a very realistic potential for greater-than-normal return, reasonably minimal risk of capital, plus all the perqs of truly being a partial owner in a motorsports facility (which likely includes more than 60 days of track time).

Sorry, LRP. You had your 50 years of opportunity and you squandered it. You watched other facilities across the country (for over 20 years now) be borne and grow using the "business model" you just "figured out" and you wasted those opportunities. You ignored your customers as they tried to tell you things weren't as rosey long-term as you thought.

Now you're seeing something viable showing up in your backyard, and suddenly you've found religion? Kinda "Day Late and Dollar Short", ain't it?

Nah, I'm not cynical. Good luck with The Club thing, though... - GA

P.S., Can you at least hire a graphic designer to do your web pages that understands "contrasting text colors"? Thanks.

[dj10]

[quote] Pardon my cynicism, but:

"So, I'm guessing the real reason is that ALMS (and other Pro organizations) are finally putting their collective feet down and telling LRP's staff that the track surface ABSOLUTELY SUCKS (I'm more sore today after the July 4th event than I've ever been racing), and unless they fix it they're going to lose their main gate-and-concessions-revenue-generating events. And, LRP's management is looking through the wallet, realizing they don't have the cash to cover that expense."

If the track is this bad why are you having your Runoffs there?

[kevin22]

I agree somewhat greg, I do believe that LRP should have been investing into their facility all along, what were they waiting for, Reminds me of the ending days of bridgehampton. I think LRP real competition is not Palmer, but the new track near Atlantic City, in Milleville, NJ. LRP is very popular with the NY Metro area, and the new NJ track is equal distance and is going to be a much nicer facility. I think LRP is going to loose much of its crowd once that track is up and running, and then if Palmer does open, LRP is again going to feel that. where would you want to spend your money, a brand new state of the art facility or an old rundown track. Personally Skip realizes he has some compettion and is trying to do improvements with out spending a dime out of pocket. He is either incredibly cheap or having money issues.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Finally, I'm extremely confident that this announcement is PURELY coincidental to the successful advancement of Palmer Motorsports Park - about an hour's drive away and probably a LOT easier to get to from Boston and even New York City - recently beginning to accept inquiries from capital investors from within the same demographics. One big difference here is, of course, PMP is not asking for a "revert-back-to-the-owner 50-year lease" with guaranteed ZERO chance of any return on investment; "join" LRP's club and that money is pissed away, dead, long gone, never to be seen again. PMP, on the other hand, is looking for investors interested in ownership of a track with a very realistic potential for greater-than-normal return, reasonably minimal risk of capital, plus all the perqs of truly being a partial owner in a motorsports facility (which likely includes more than 60 days of track time).

Sorry, LRP. You had your 50 years of opportunity and you squandered it. You watched other facilities across the country (for over 20 years now) be borne and grow using the "business model" you just "figured out" and you wasted those opportunities. You ignored your customers as they tried to tell you things weren't as rosey long-term as you thought.

Now you're seeing something viable showing up in your backyard, and suddenly you've found religion? Kinda "Day Late and Dollar Short", ain't it?

Nah, I'm not cynical. Good luck with The Club thing, though... - GA

[/b]

Wow Greg! I couldn't have said it better!

With that, the New England Region SCCA is actively looking for investors to help make PMP a reality. If anyone is interested in receiving more details please contact Dick Patullo or myself.

[RKramden]

One has to also keep in mind that an additional 60 days of demand will be removed from the calendar, to be reserved for "Club" members, thus tightening the ever-tight available track dates.
[/b]

It is my understanding that the single largest renter of track days is Skip Barber Racing. It is also widely rumored that they have had a real sweetheart deal contract from back when Skip owned it. Part of the story is that the contract is about to expire, and the track would be looking for a LOT more money.

Could this change the willingness of the Series/School to continue to operate out of Lime Rock? Would that free up a large number of track days?

Also, a new track in Jersey will take a bite out of their customer base as well. Millville isn't much farther from the city than Lime Rock, and for the folks in the Jersey/PA area, it is a lot closer.

The only thing I see in their future is more competition for their customers, and this looks like an attempt to lock in some deep pocket customers.

[dpc]

lets go back on 7/7/08 and reread these post and see where everybody is at that point in history, looking for a bright future for the little guy out there racing. dave

[gran racing]

I'm not saying I fully believe this is the solution but putting the cynicism and any hard feelings aside, what are some of your ideas of what LRP can do at this point in time to ensure it's around 50 years from now? From my understanding, the track is not doing so well financially right now and I'd like to continue see the property as a track and not a condo development.

[Scott Koschwitz]

To follow up on Greg's comment about the sanctioning bodies pressuring Lime Rock to improve the surface --

I attended the ALMS race yesterday, and there was near-universal driver criticism of the track surface (not of the track staff, which they praised quite nicely). The compaints concerned the lack of grip, bumpiness, concrete patches, and the single-groove nature (making it very difficult for the prototypes to pass the GT cars off-line). Johnny O'Connell of Corvette Racing was particularly critical, saying that Lime Rock promised in 2004 to repave, and, while they've made other improvements, they still haven't repaved; if they don't, the ALMS shouldn't return. I think the repaving will be the crux of any discussions about the ALMS returning for 2008.

By the way, the crowd yesterday was huge -- the biggest I've seen since the IMSA GTP days.

The race is on CBS this afternoon at 1 p.m., I think. You just might hear some of the criticism during the driver interviews.

[Jeremy Billiel]

To follow up on Greg's comment about the sanctioning bodies pressuring Lime Rock to improve the surface --

I attended the ALMS race yesterday, and there was near-universal driver criticism of the track surface (not of the track staff, which they praised quite nicely). The compaints concerned the lack of grip, bumpiness, concrete patches, and the single-groove nature (making it very difficult for the prototypes to pass the GT cars off-line). Johnny O'Connell of Corvette Racing was particularly critical, saying that Lime Rock promised in 2004 to repave, and, while they've made other improvements, they still haven't repaved; if they don't, the ALMS shouldn't return. I think the repaving will be the crux of any discussions about the ALMS returning for 2008.

By the way, the crowd yesterday was huge -- the biggest I've seen since the IMSA GTP days.

The race is on CBS this afternoon at 1 p.m., I think. You just might hear some of the criticism during the driver interviews.
[/b]

Watching the broadcast they made many mentions of the poor surface. What I found interesting though was their comment about the concrete having no grip. Isn't it the opposite? I thought they were crazy, but many of the cars did not use the concrete they were staying to the inside of the patches.

On a another note, I would hate the drive LRP as a prototype driver. There is not a lot of places to pass and way too many cars.

[Greg Amy]

Skip Barber was interviewed during the CBS broadcast this afternoon in regards to the LRP Club. I wrote down some quotes of things he said that I found significant (any transcription errors are my own):

In regards to the track, he noted that the track surface is obviously poor, and in need of resurfacing. He also said that the amount of money required to do this work is "...more capital, more money, than any normal-functioning road course could ever generate."

I certainly can't argue with that. I don't know the details of the finances of this track, but I can't imagine how a road course could generate enough profit to cover these costs.

He adds that resurfacing the track is, "...important is the long-range future of this place." I agree.

"There's a tremendous..demand for track time here...the waiting list is five years to get a day here.

"We're going to form a club - a very exclusive club - and ask all the existing users to give up some of their track time so that members of this new club could get access to the track. all that money - and it's a huge amount of capital - [will be spent] on the facilities.

"I think this is a great solution, long-term and short-term."

In watching this interview, and reading the press releases, I'd suggest my alternate theory was correct: they have either not been generating enough profit, or have not been putting aside any profits for a repave (hmmm, how's those "Pave the Track" funds you collected doing?). I suggest there are a number of organizations that are rattling sabers about not coming back (SIGNIFICANTLY detrimentally affecting the future revenue - and "future value" - of the track), and the track just flat out doesn't have the coin to pay for the work. I suppose this is a creative method of generating cash by leveraging the reputation and current high-demand of the track.

But, why the handout route? Why not generate cash the old-fashioned way, through financing or selling equity (selling ownership shares)? I find it bordering on arrogant that Skip thinks he doesn't have to give up equity in the track to generate cash, instead relying on, effectively, donation and selling his product (by further prioritizing track time). But, if he can pull it off, generate the cash he needs for without giving up equity, more power to him.

Of course, then there the troubling line about "ask all the existing users to give up some of their track time so that members of this new club could get access to the track" (and that's a direct quote). Any suggestions as to whom that might be...? The only saving grace in this regard is that the "club" likely only needs non-competition time (read: HPDE time) and the competition days will go to the same existing competition customers. PURELY speculation on my part (but if the HPDE days generate more profit than comp days, he should be selling those to HPDE/Club groups, too...)

Finally, from an investor perspective, I see no value in giving LRP $100k with no potential for any return on that "investment", versus truly investing capital into a very-well-could-be-a-profit Palmer. Suppose it depends on your financial goals, though.

I do wish Skip luck in his endeavor; I'm sure we all united in wanting to see the track repaved and successful well into the future. However, I suggest this push may very well siphon off capital from other options, and I'm sure that the bumpiness for existing track users is only getting started... - GA

[zchris]

Well, I cannot imagine in the middle of farm country, anyone in there right mind would build condos. Kinda thin there Skippy. You mismanaged the track and now are looking for a free ride on the repave and additionally want to line your pockets. I could care less if the track fails under his leadership. Someone else will buy if he fails and could not run it as poorly as it has been. You guys afraid of travel are being to kind to Skippy. With new tracks being built, we do not need them anymore. I'm tired of taking it up the butt at Lime Rock. Like there doing us a favor by renting us there crappy bumpy little bull ring. Good ridence.
Chris Howard

[RKramden]

When I go to other tracks, and see the number of people working there, I am amazed that Lime Rock can turn any sort of profit with the HUGE number of people they have on "Staff". For our non-spectator event, they must have had 40 or more people at the track on the pay role, not counting those up in the office doing other things. That alone must be costing them many thousands of dollars a day.

[GregM]

Greg,
Maybe you should join me for lunch on Tuesday at the Chowder Club at Sardi's where non other than Skip Barber is the guest speaker. I guess I will be asking some very pointed questions............

The track was given a deadline for the track repaving by ALMS. I would have to look back but I believe the date has passed.

Not much has been improved in the past few years at the track. If you want to make money you have to spend money. Maybe they should look at how Thunderhill( which is SCCA owned) is run ?? or maybe take a lesson from Don Panoz. He seems to have the ability to run racetracks and make money ? does he not ?

The also is a " track repaving fund " . What has happened to that ? How much money was in it ?

If the wait to get a date is 5 years why oh why did SCCA give up the National for Mosport where there was 1 T1 and 1 T2 car this past weekend ???? ( 70 cars @ $295 , did this event pay for itself ? ) sounds like a real money maker for SCCA on July 4th weekend. Cheaper entry fee's and a way longer haul ( think fuel prices ) makes Lime Rock fee's look cheap. But this is a whole other topic........................................

$100,000 + $10,000 for membership !!!! Lets see how many fork that over.......... I can think of many other ways to spend my money and earn some equity with it.

Bridgehampton is missed by many lets hope that Lime Rock doesn't follow the same fate..................... .

[gran racing]

Well, I cannot imagine in the middle of farm country, anyone in there right mind would build condos. Kinda thin there Skippy. [/b]

Gesh, I don't know. I wouldn't be overly surprised if another group came in and purchased the land for other use. Thinking selfishly a bit, is this proposed solution such a bad deal for us especially if Palmer happens? Maybe we only have two regional races at LRP each year, but with a much nicer facility and repaved track...

[zchris]

Dave, what, a horse farm. Half the property would be considered wet land for new construction purposes. Bridgehampton had completely different issues that killed it. And if they sell these 100k memberships, our now 3 dates will cost us even more. New York snobery knows no bounds. And what no one has talked about is the dirty little secret. That is how anyone that runs in the Northeast will pay more to run everywhere because to offset loosing money at Lime Rock, regions will have to charge more to subsidize Lime Rock losses. Ultimately the club cannot lose money. So your NHIS entry will have a Lime Rock subsidy built in. Sorry, it will have to. And those of us that do not run Lime Rock will subsidize those that do. Think about that in 2008 when racing at NHIS. GEEZ, track rental only went up 5% but entries went up 25%. Glad I can pay for those that want to run Lime Rock. Not. There is a National at the Rock in 3 weeks. I would rather take the 150.00 in entry fee difference and drive to VIR. It will cost more in time and gas. But I will drive on a smooth, fast and way more fun facility. 400.00 for the bumpy bull ring is not happening. 250.00 for the real race track will. Hope everyone has a safe season.
Chris Howard

[wdether]

or maybe take a lesson from Don Panoz. He seems to have the ability to run racetracks and make money ? does he not ?

If the wait to get a date is 5 years why oh why did SCCA give up the National for Mosport where there was 1 T1 and 1 T2 car this past weekend ???? ( 70 cars @ $295 , did this event pay for itself ? ) sounds like a real money maker for SCCA on July 4th weekend. Cheaper entry fee's and a way longer haul ( think fuel prices ) makes Lime Rock fee's look cheap. But this is a whole other topic........................................

Bridgehampton is missed by many lets hope that Lime Rock doesn't follow the same fate..................... .
[/b]

New York Region shared the track and rental fee with the Canadian CASC/BARC group, I am not sure how much the region had to pay. The region may be somewhat close to breaking even with 80 cars registerred. Mosport is a Don Panoz owned track, the rental fee must have been substantially less than the $27K+ per day (if you include the mandatory service from the on-track catering service) Limerock charges. Some regions in other parts of the country only have about 100 cars per race and still manage to keep racing. It does beg the question how Panos can charge less and still make money. It was obvious money has been spent on Mosport since Panos bought the track (several new paved paddock areas, etc.).

If New York Region kept the national at Limerock they may have been forced to charge close to the $425 NNJR is charging for its national at the end of the month. With $53K in track rental fees and about $13K in other needed charges (catering fees, insurance, etc.) the breakeven figure for NNJR's race is about 165 cars. Will NNJR get that many cars? New York Region may have been smart to take the national to Mosport.

[ulfelder]

A few random thoughts on this thread:

- I consider myself as jaded as the next guy, but wow! The outpouring of cynicism and schadenfraede, from some usually level-headed folks, is surprising. Whatever else is happening, I hope Skip Barber and everyone at LRP realize how little goodwill they have left in the Club Racing community.

- In my experience, it's a sucker's game to try to outguess a business on why it's doing whatever it's doing. I've seen some very reasonable thoughts in this thread on what's going on at LRP (for example, it may well be that ALMS and other pro series are demanding a repave), but there's no way any of us can know the full range of pressures, offers, and opportunities faced by the track. Just to serve up one hypothetical example: would you be surprised if it turns out Barber has a standing offer from a golf-course developer, but he sincerely wants the parcel to remain a race track? I wouldn't. I've got a little family history in the commercial real-estate game, and I know how traumatic it can be when there's a big stack of money on the table in front of you, and you'd love to be rid of the damn parcel, but you don't approve of the planned use.

Again, just thoughts from another racer with the racer's typical love-it-and-hate-it relationship with LRP.

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[dj10]

A few random thoughts on this thread:

- I consider myself as jaded as the next guy, but wow! The outpouring of cynicism and schadenfraede, from some usually level-headed folks, is surprising. Whatever else is happening, I hope Skip Barber and everyone at LRP realize how little goodwill they have left in the Club Racing community.

- In my experience, it's a sucker's game to try to outguess a business on why it's doing whatever it's doing. I've seen some very reasonable thoughts in this thread on what's going on at LRP (for example, it may well be that ALMS and other pro series are demanding a repave), but there's no way any of us can know the full range of pressures, offers, and opportunities faced by the track. Just to serve up one hypothetical example: would you be surprised if it turns out Barber has a standing offer from a golf-course developer, but he sincerely wants the parcel to remain a race track? I wouldn't. I've got a little family history in the commercial real-estate game, and I know how traumatic it can be when there's a big stack of money on the table in front of you, and you'd love to be rid of the damn parcel, but you don't approve of the planned use.

Again, just thoughts from another racer with the racer's typical love-it-and-hate-it relationship with LRP.

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[/b]

You have pretty well talked me out of running the NE Runoffs @ LRP. Why should I tow 7 + Hrs to race on a track that is in terrible shape? Not only that but I did watch the ALMS yesterday and I'll be there are some drivers that may need a kidney transplant today! At least they get paid for it.

[hd54kh]

There is a similar club not far away and eisier access from Metro New York area. :

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/.../NEWS/707070331 (http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070707/NEWS/707070331)

This one is closed to all but members but if you got a couple of hundred grand to spend why share the course. This track has broken ground and I saw the article in Saturdays paper. Here is the club link:

http://www.driveandrace.com/

I'm just starting out and can barely afford tires, SCCA school, towing.......... but lets see 100k, 7.5/year, 100k for the car........ maybe I should have paid more attention in school as a youngster.

Terry
85 GTI VW Cup Car
Still on a novice permit

[gran racing]

Dan, you also need to remember that an ALMS car will respond to the track differently than our IT cars. Although Greg is not fond of LRP and will be vocal about the faults he has with it, there are many others who love the track. It still remains to be my favorite track. And the Runoffs is a fantastic event. Tow 7 hours to attend the Runoffs at LRP? You absolutely should come for that event.

[RSTPerformance]

I really can't afford or justify racing at Lime Rock with the income that I have, however if I could afford it, I would... It is a very fun track to race at, and has probably some of the toughest turns in the country. It would be a shame to see it go away.

It would be great to get someone whom knows how to manage a track run the place... For as long as I can remember the track has been rumored to be mismanaged, and it should be turning huge profits as compaired to other tracks. I am sure that the financial trouble the track is in has a history.

Raymond "I am pissed that it costs so much, but I do have to love the track itself still" Blethen

[jjjanos]

In regards to the track, he noted that the track surface is obviously poor, and in need of resurfacing. He also said that the amount of money required to do this work is "...more capital, more money, than any normal-functioning road course could ever generate."[/b]

Horse hockey. Bollocks. Content suitable for putting on my flowers. Statement full of E. Coli.

Repaving certainly is less expensive than doing the job from bare ground. Summit Point repaved less than 10 years ago. VIR essentially was a ground zero operation. Carolina Motorsports Park from nothing to pavement within the same time frame. Track in Jersey being built. How many additonal tracks have been built in that time? Shoot. Summit Point built a third track without extorting money from users.

A $5 million repaving job financed through a 8% loan over 15 years works calculates to annual debt payments of $584,138 per year. At 270 track days per year, that works out to an increase in daily rental fee of around $2,200 per day.

$5 million cost works out to over $3.2 million per mile to REPAVE and I really doubt the cost is any near that high.

From the city of Staunton VA website - "The cost to pave one lane for one mile is $86,000."

Multiple by 4 for 4 lanes and assume that racing asphalt is 5 times as expensive as the stuff put on city streets - you're at $2.125 million per mile paving. Total cost for 1.53 miles = $3.3 million

200 track days/year = about $3,000 increase in rental
270 track days/year = about $2,200 increase in rental

Bump the interest rate to 10% and you don't impact these number that much.


I certainly can't argue with that. I don't know the details of the finances of this track, but I can't imagine how a road course could generate enough profit to cover these costs.[/b]

See above set of assumptions.


In watching this interview, and reading the press releases, I'd suggest my alternate theory was correct: they have either not been generating enough profit[/b]

Hard to believe given what I have heard about rental rates there.

Me thinks that this is part of the SB Retirement Fund Plan.

[RSTPerformance]

Horse hockey. Bollocks. Content suitable for putting on my flowers. Statement full of E. Coli.

Repaving certainly is less expensive than doing the job from bare ground. Summit Point repaved less than 10 years ago. VIR essentially was a ground zero operation. Carolina Motorsports Park from nothing to pavement within the same time frame. Track in Jersey being built. How many additonal tracks have been built in that time? Shoot. Summit Point built a third track without extorting money from users.

A $5 million repaving job financed through a 8% loan over 15 years works calculates to annual debt payments of $584,138 per year. At 270 track days per year, that works out to an increase in daily rental fee of around $2,200 per day.

$5 million cost works out to over $3.2 million per mile to REPAVE and I really doubt the cost is any near that high.

From the city of Staunton VA website - "The cost to pave one lane for one mile is $86,000."

Multiple by 4 for 4 lanes and assume that racing asphalt is 5 times as expensive as the stuff put on city streets - you're at $2.125 million per mile paving. Total cost for 1.53 miles = $3.3 million

200 track days/year = about $3,000 increase in rental
270 track days/year = about $2,200 increase in rental

Bump the interest rate to 10% and you don't impact these number that much.
See above set of assumptions.
Hard to believe given what I have heard about rental rates there.

Me thinks that this is part of the SB Retirement Fund Plan.
[/b]

Interesting post... Maybe those involved with Palmer can chime in... I would think it would be more similar in reguards to cost.


Raymond


A good revenue source for the track would be to open a dam hotel... How far do people travel to get to a hotel in that area??? Also how many places are booked ireguardless of a race or not??? make a resort with a nice hotel some small shops/restuarants and a pool area... The place will be booked all summer and well into the fall ireguardless of a race or not... And they have PLENTY of space in the upper lot to tear down a those pointless chalets and move stuff around to make it.

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

...there are many others who love the track. It still remains to be my favorite track.[/b]
You always have fond memories of the first girl you kissed...no matter how much of a dog she really was...

[GregM]

There have been many good points raised here. The track has been poorly managed over the years. I find it hard to believe that LRP cannot follow the business model that many other tracks have succeeded with.

As far as hotels and bed and breakfasts I can tell you that there are plenty and not too far away. Since having purchased my property at Lime Rock 5 years ago I have found so many more places to eat and stay that my wife and I found we didnt really know the area at all and I have been going there since I was 8.
Racebrook Lodge Just north of Salisbury in Mass. Here's some places to check out when you come to Town.
Wake Robin Inn in Lakeville
Sharon Motor Lodge
Mountainside Cabins Falls Village
Interlakin Inn
Troutbeck
Inn at Iron Masters
There are places for all budgets.
Food. Well there are so many great places but here's a few
Breakfast & lunch[/b]
Chefrey's between Lakeville and Salisbury across from Ironmasters
The Toy Maker Cafe Falls Village
Mountainside Falls Village
Blackforest Caanan
Dinner[b]
Boathouse
The Woodlands
Pastorale
Troutbeck
and there's so many many more. Again there's something for every price range. Just ask I I can point you in the right direction.

As for developers. Subdivisions don't work up there. People don't buy into them. Watch the local real estate market and you will see. There are many small subdivisions and the land isn't selling in all price ranges. Look at the one on the way to Amenia on Rt 41. Not a single house built in 2 years. Also the burden on the local Town infrastructure would be greatly affected. We can't even find a place for the local Transfer Station and they have been looking for years.

As for the golf idea. The track has a lot of wetlands, part of the reason for a lack of infrastructure. I am down the block and I have wetlands as well. Somehow I don't see anyone letting them polute the local water supply. We are all on well water. I expedite permits for a living and I for one would hire an attorney and fight it tooth and nail. Ask the local people in Bridgehampton if they are happy with the golf course and chemicals .

I wish I could attend lunch tomorrow where he's the guest speaker and talk again with Skip but business will keep me away. I did however just get my private invitation to meet with him about the Lime Rock Club so I guess I will book an appointment and speak with him then.

At least one Greg loves Lime Rock besides me. My sons first word was " racecar " Go figure.

Greg

[Andy Bettencourt]

You always have fond memories of the first girl you kissed...no matter how much of a dog she really was...
[/b]

Most peoples track preference is directly related to the success they have there...having said that, I don't know of many that don't think WGI isn't one of the top 3 in the country. Having heard 1st hand reviews of some of the best from Grand Am drivers, WGI still remains a favorite.

Here is another issue that hasn't been touched on: I am REALLY surprised that the local township has approved ANYTHING in terms of additional brick and mortar. I was always under the impression that the local ordinances and 'contracts' had just as much - or more - to do with the lack of development. I have to wonder if Skip has had some of that relaxed...or if he gets run out of town he gets to keep the money.

It would be nice if the Track Manager would pop on and give us a scoop - he did last year didn't he?

[gran racing]

Summit Point repaved less than 10 years ago.[/b]

Yeah, and the pavement is just great there. :rolleyes: My first time there three years ago, I couldn't help but think "now this is some crappy pavement!". Or did they just fail to pave the carousel?

One reason I like LRP so much is since it is a bullring and enjoy working with traffic. There are plenty of tracks where a race quickly becomes a HPDE day, but that will never happen at LRP.

[dj10]

Dan, you also need to remember that an ALMS car will respond to the track differently than our IT cars. Although Greg is not fond of LRP and will be vocal about the faults he has with it, there are many others who love the track. It still remains to be my favorite track. And the Runoffs is a fantastic event. Tow 7 hours to attend the Runoffs at LRP? You absolutely should come for that event. [/b]



Hmmmmm, lets see, Beaver Run 1 hr, Summit Point & Nelson Ledges 2 hrs, Mid Ohio 3 hrs, Watkins Glen 5 hrs VIR and LRP 7 hrs now which one..........

[GregM]

Here is another issue that hasn't been touched on: I am REALLY surprised that the local township has approved ANYTHING in terms of additional brick and mortar. I was always under the impression that the local ordinances and 'contracts' had just as much - or more - to do with the lack of development. I have to wonder if Skip has had some of that relaxed...or if he gets run out of town he gets to keep the money.

It would be nice if the Track Manager would pop on and give us a scoop - he did last year didn't he?
[/b]

Thats why the Race Tower is built up on posts with no real enclosed structure at grade. Its in a 100 year flood plain. Thats why its funny when people think they could just sell it and build houses. Its different than the Bridge. I am still very concerened about the tracks future, mostly based on management.

Track Manager is now a she. Georgia Blades who helped run and grow Skip Barber Racing school. Yeah we got the scoop last year from Steve Potter. Notice he was gone really quick. I got a disturbing letter as a local resident about what the track would like to do without the track ever consulting any of the neighbors, even the track friendly ones. Everyone was angered and because most didn't understand Zoning there were many mis-interpretations of what could happen.
So we had Steve Potter ( Saratoga Auto Museum ? ), Garret Mudd ( went on to SCCA Pro and now CART ) , Michael Johnson , and Mike Rand ( still on staff as a consultant ).

All I hear is complaints about the crappy pavement. Have any of you ever raced Bridgehampton ?? Or Nelson ( before the repave ) ?? We all were just happy to be racing at Bridgehampton and there were no facilities and sand everywhere. No paved or grassy parking area's at all. How about those bathrooms at Nelson or the grass that never gets mowed ? Even when they tell me its mowed I couldn't tell.

And I loved racing at Bridgehampton and Nelson no matter what the facilities are like.

[gran racing]

Dan, it's o.k. to be afraid of the competition the Runoffs bring, no need to make further excuses. :P

[Andy Bettencourt]

It may be as bumpy as it ever has been in the downhill over the past 10 year but there are plenty that find it manageble. Some of us just might be getting too old! :P

[dj10]

Dan, it's o.k. to be afraid of the competition the Runoffs bring, no need to make further excuses. :P [/b]



Bring your best to Watkins Glen and lets see where the bear shits in the buck wheat. B) From what I'm reading and seeing towing for 7 hrs to a over priced and poorly maintained track to beat my car up for a wood plaque just doesn't seem smart. If I can afford it, I'll be at ARRC, at least they paved Road Atlanta.

[gran racing]

I'll be at the Glen for the 9/15 & 9/16 double - right in the middle of bear hunting season. I'll also be down at the ARRC assuming my car holds together.

Dan, you're being mislead about the condition of LRP and it is an absolute blast to race at. With a long tow anywhere, a $50 difference really isn't significant in the scheme of things.

[robits325is]

From what I'm reading and seeing towing for 7 hrs to a over priced and poorly maintained track to beat my car up for a wood plaque just doesn't seem smart.
[/b]

Don't knock it until you try it.

[GregM]

Have any of you raced Sebring ? Talk about bumpy and poor track conditions .....Please...........

Hows about the sandpaper like quality of Roebling Road ??? Destroy left side tires in practice / qualifying and then destroy a set of tires minimum in the race. I still like racing there because it fun and southern hospitality is great. Oh wait you don't want to tow that far. Your mssing out on one of the best tracks around. Not to mention the great bars in Savannah like Kevin Barry's.

Ever race Portland ?

Complain about track conditions, try first racing across the country and take a look back. Lime Rock looks pretty damn good when compared to the rest.

As Robits325is said " Don't knock it until you try it "

[almracing]

Ever race Portland ?

[/b]

I drove it last Christmas... :114:

The raceway lines the course with Christmas lights/decorations and you get to drive the track. They looked at me funny when I asked what the fastest time of the night was... :D

[gran racing]

One of my co-workers has been attending several of the "schools" / track days associated with this club. It have been very interesting to hear a different perspective, and learn a bit more about things. Sure sounds like there will be new pavement by the AMLS this summer. Oh, there are in excess of 100 individuals who have signed up for the club. That's pretty impressive.

(Andy, she had some very nice things to say about the Flat Out operation too.)

[lateapex911]

Oh, there are in excess of 100 individuals who have signed up for the club. That's pretty impressive.

[/b]

jeeeeez.......
:rolleyes:

(I wonder what the "break even" is on this club. I mean, at some point he has to say, sorry, not enough sign ups to make it work. It;s a big nut..repaving, and new clubhouse, new pits, and on and on....)

I too find the whole thing odd when compared to other tracks. Laguna repaved twice in the past two years...Mid Ohio just repaved. Summit just repaved. Lime Rock has some of the highest rental rates in the country, if not THE highest, and and fills a lot of days...where does the money go?????

And, as an aside, whats up with Tamworth? I know things weren't looking too good there. I also know there were some who posted here who invested. If the project is a no go, does the money get returned? Or???

[Magical Trevor]

where does the money go?????[/b]

Insurance and taxes, most likely.

[lateapex911]

But...every other track in the country has the same issues..why is Lime Rock the most expensive to rent, but at the same time the least able to afford basic upgrades. makes no sense....

[jjjanos]

where does the money go?????
[/b]

http://www.thegrid.co.uk/index_files/Skip_Barber_Logo.jpg

LRP is hampered somewhat by the peculiar rules under which it operates, but if the track isn't rolling in profit, it's being mismanaged. So what makes anyone think the new influx of cash will be used wisely?

Or perhaps it's simply an attempt to bind people/groups to the current track in the event a new track opens in New England. Nahhhh, couldn't be that.

[benspeed]

This all boils down to leadership or the lack thereof. I have seen little to give me any confidence. LRP used to be my favorite track but after participating at tracks all over the NE - LRP offers the worst ammenities, paddock, shortest sessions and the track is plain worn out. My racing dollars will be spent less at LRP and more elsewhere. We predict that the NARRC Runoffs will be moved in the next 5 years as newer, better tracks open and regions can put on events without stressing over bankrupting the coffers if it rains or another event competes for entries.

Tell me we wouldn't hold the event at Palmer or Thunderbolt?

[Doc Bro]

I think the only way to add to the "presitge" of the runoffs is to move it from LRP. There are way too many things that could be done to improve the format of the runoffs, LRP lends itself to few of these. Let LRP go "private", we've got bigger and better issues to deal with. I've never understood the arguement for keeping dates at LRP out of fear of never getting them back. If the dates are financial disasters why keep all of them? LRP knows what they're doing ....keep raising the rates till they stop coming. If they keep coming, great, if not we've got more days for the Ferrari guys. How many people have stopped buying gas lately????


R

[lateapex911]

. My racing dollars will be spent less at LRP and more elsewhere.
[/b]

Well, whether you instigate the turndown of spending or not, it seems like dates are disappearing (according to Skip, he needs cooperation from all to create enough club time)...you might not have a choice in the spending department.

Good points Doc, he has positioned himself in such a way as to force out the little clubs. My issue with that, though, is his stance that the history and the heritage of Lime Rock are so important, and the track must be protected against land developmet in the future. The very first, second (and who nows how many after that) events were SCCA. If it wasn't for SCCA, that track would have failed in the early 60s. SCCA is as much a part of Lime Rock as the Salmon Kill.

I know, it's just business. Pretty crappy business, in some ways.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The Runoffs makes money. Other events can make money - you just have to have interesting formats, points paying events for popular series and not too many events.

LRP will do fine this year. Only 2 Regionals and the Runoffs. Still no reason it can't rotate to Palmer or WGI if the NARRC expands.....

[gran racing]

Again, just from another perspective...

One thing Skip has brought up is how to continue LRP once he is no longer around. Having 100 + people invest that sum of money much more strongly protects the track from becoming something else such as a golf course or another Ghost Track.

Do I think the rental fees suck? Yup. I also do not believe most (if any) person here knows the whole story. It would be interesting to know. Hmmm.

[jjjanos]

One thing Skip has brought up is how to continue LRP once he is no longer around. Having 100 + people invest that sum of money much more strongly protects the track from becoming something else such as a golf course or another Ghost Track.[/b]

Perhaps, perhaps not. The people buying memberships are not investing in the track. They are buying a membership with no guarantee that 100% of the funds raised through memberships will be put into investments and I'm guessing that the track reserves the right to terminate a membership either at will or under specific circumstances as long as it refunds the unused portion of the membership.

I'd be real interested in knowing what they mean by "book" track time. I.e. Is there an extra fee for using "club" days?

[Andy Bettencourt]

No. You get 20 days per year for your $110K and $550 per month.

It turns out to be $440K over 50 years for 1000 track days. $440 per day if you average it out. Plenty of other 'perks'. The club is thinking about buying cars for the membership to drive. They are also going to create a 'track within the track' (very hard to explain) with modified corners (less dangerous) without changing the original config. Again, very hard to explain but they will slow down some of the scary spots and utilize some popular spots to lessen the danger of personal cars.

They are VERY customer oriented at this point. VERY.

[robits325is]

I just hope they fix that big bump in the downhill......

[JohnRW]

No. You get 20 days per year for your $110K and $550 per month. It turns out to be $440K over 50 years for 1000 track days. $440 per day if you average it out. [/b]

Not so fast there. You're counting a present payment for a future benefit. What would that $110K be worth if safely invested (oxymoron, huh ?) for the next 50 years. THAT amount is what you're paying for those 1000 track days.

[gran racing]

It turns out to be $440K over 50 years for 1000 track days. $440 per day if you average it out. [/b]

Jake buddy, I'm going to beat you to this!!! :P At $440 per day, that's a steal! If LRP keeps increasing track fees like it has, can you imagine what a bargain $440 will be in 5 years no less than 40 years from now? (Was that Jake or was that me? I so need to lay off these cold medications. LOL)

I respect that the track (Skip) needs to think about the future, but also really want it to be a place for the average person to enjoy. I'd hate it to become another exclusive club where only the rich can play. One part of me says screw LRP, while the other says I really enjoy the track and have a lot of emotional ties to it.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Not so fast there. You're counting a present payment for a future benefit. What would that $110K be worth if safely invested (oxymoron, huh ?) for the next 50 years. THAT amount is what you're paying for those 1000 track days.
[/b]

BINGO!! You guys are forgetting about the opportunity costs. When you include these it is significantly more expensive.

[jjjanos]

And Lime Rock Park is committing to the current monthly dues for the next 50 years or is it allowed to raise these dues?

[lateapex911]

Its on the web site, IIRC, but I think they commit for a while, but then increase. What I read seemed to have a lot of open ends.

[Doc Bro]

can you imagine what a bargain $440 will be in 5 years no less than 40 years from now?[/b]

No, I can't. $440 to drive a short narrow track with limited passing opportunity and 1 repave in 40 years. What a bargain.

LRP has done nothing to position itself as a premier modern road racing facility. It once was, and that's where its accolades lie. It's the Al Bundy of road racing circuits.

R

[gran racing]

I meant that with sarcasm. And there are plenty of places to pass, you're just too chicken. :D Just teasing ya Doc.

[Doc Bro]

you're just too chicken. :D
[/b]


Hey, how fun was the 06 season for you????

R

[cchandler]

One of the Skippy instructors (John Murphy) has a Busch car and has run it at LRP. He told me that he never knew there were so many passing zones until he ran with the Busch guys!!

BTW, the BMW Club does NOT have a race at LRP this year. :(

[Doc Bro]

Yeah, it's amazing how 600hp will create an opportunity!!

R

[Magical Trevor]

No. You get 20 days per year for your $110K and $550 per month.

It turns out to be $440K over 50 years for 1000 track days. $440 per day if you average it out. Plenty of other 'perks'. The club is thinking about buying cars for the membership to drive. They are also going to create a 'track within the track' (very hard to explain) with modified corners (less dangerous) without changing the original config. Again, very hard to explain but they will slow down some of the scary spots and utilize some popular spots to lessen the danger of personal cars.

They are VERY customer oriented at this point. VERY.
[/b]
Well, since Andy let the cat out of the bag first (I wouldn't have wanted to :P)...
Here's my "artist's interpretation" of the reconfiguration, going by what Skip had said at a VSCCA Banquet a little over two months ago; though it sounded purely speculative at that point:

[Jeremy Billiel]

Well, since Andy let the cat out of the bag first (I wouldn't have wanted to :P)...
Here's my "artist's interpretation" of the reconfiguration, going by what Skip had said at a VSCCA Banquet a little over two months ago; though it sounded purely speculative at that point:
[/b]

I am sorry but that is just stupid. Why don't we make a fake track so you can say that you drove LRP?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just aimed at their street cars to bring the 'danger' level down. Many have agreed that to be fast at LRP you need to have a screw or two loose...

I believe the new config will be for members only - and they of course will have the option of running days on the original configuration.

[Doc Bro]

Does the "new" line in the downhill require 2 wheels in the stream?

Here's a new novel approach to making LRP more "drivable" Get rid of the bumps and repave......

R

[gran racing]

Like I said, supposedly before the AMLS this July.

Yeah, '06 wasn't a fun season but it wasn't a passing attempt that caused me to wreck the car. It's still interesting to learn a bit more about the perspective and what influences shape things.

[Magical Trevor]

Does the "new" line in the downhill require 2 wheels in the stream?
R
[/b]

One might think, but actually where I reprofiled the corner (really just reduced the radius), its outside edge is just underneath the edge of where the Station 11 shade structure now is-leaving plenty of room for the paved runoff. (Where they'd put the flaggers I have no idea-maybe back inside the turn)
I'll give you another look, with satellite imagery background:
(Yes, I have too much time to play with Google Earth and Excel)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Does the "new" line in the downhill require 2 wheels in the stream?

Here's a new novel approach to making LRP more "drivable" Get rid of the bumps and repave......

R [/b]

It's all in the plan. I think ALMS really put some pressure on...it's gonna be like glass for you punks.

[dominojd]

Many have agreed that to be fast at LRP you need to have a screw or two loose...

[/b]

...or a Miata! :P

oh I crack myself up.

[JLawton]

$440 to drive a short narrow track with limited places I can get passed[/b]




And there are plenty of places to pass, you're just too chicken. [/b]


Dave, stop picking on poor Rob!! That's what he meant to say.

[Greg Amy]

...to be fast at LRP you need to have a screw or two loose...[/b]


...AND a Miata! :P oh I crack myself up.[/b]
Fixed.

Yeah, me too.

;)

[Doc Bro]

Hey Lawton,

Did you even GO to the runoffs this year????? Be careful about fixing too many posts!!!! :018:


R

[benspeed]

A lot a fast guys wussed out on the runoffs - can't let them forget they pussied out.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Fixed.

Yeah, me too.

;)



[/b]

Or be Richie Hunter or Anthony Serra in an Integra, or Blaney / Lorenzo Serra in a CRX...

It's always about the car..... HA!




Hey Lawton,

Did you even GO to the runoffs this year????? Be careful about fixing too many posts!!!! :018:


R [/b]

Check my video - he was there! About 15 laps in you get a nice view of him!!!!

Ahhhh, snow in the Northeast means we get punchy!!!!! :)

[gran racing]

It has nothing to do with the car. Ha! :D As we know, there are numerous racers out there who would do extremely well put in the right car. There are also plenty of people who have the right car that still can't take advantage of it.

[Greg Amy]

Or be Richie Hunter or Anthony Serra in an Integra, or Blaney / Lorenzo Serra in a CRX...It's always about the car..... HA![/b]
Whaa....??? How long has THAT been? ::confused:: I guess using that logic, the first-gen RX-7 is still competitive in ITS... :wacko: Hell, dude, how long has it been since those guys (sans Hunter) have even been to LRP? Hell, now that I think about it, how long has it been since you've lost at LRP (in the dry...?) Let's tally the score over the last two years... :023:

But, at least you picked up on the "screw loose" part... ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Whaa....??? How long has THAT been? ::confused:: I guess using that logic, the first-gen RX-7 is still competitive in ITS... :wacko: Hell, dude, how long has it been since those guys (sans Hunter) have even been to LRP? Hell, now that I think about it, how long has it been since you've lost at LRP (in the dry...?) Let's tally the score over the last two years... :023:

But, at least you picked up on the "screw loose" part... ;) [/b]

Just posting guys who have gone 1:02 FLAT or better. And Anthony's 1:01.6......so tally how many times I have raced against any of THOSE guys other than Hunter (who can run on my bumper until he spins :) )....zero. :eclipsee_steering:

[benspeed]

The number of ITS guys under 1:02 is a handful or so. I want to be the first IT guy under a minute.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The number of ITS guys under 1:02 is a handful or so. [/b]

Easily about 8 or so. The top five at the Runoffs this year were all in the 1:01's. Add in me, Kip, Reilly and you have plenty. Only 2 guys in the 1:00 range I beleive. THAT is crazy.

[dominojd]

Hey Lawton,

Did you even GO to the runoffs this year????? Be careful about fixing too many posts!!!! :018:
R
[/b]

Rob you don't remember Jeff being there, you did pass him and all. :D

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob you don't remember Jeff being there, you did pass him and all. :D
[/b]

Joe,

I can't wait to see how fast the 01 is with clean body work and a slick paint job!!!!

[JLawton]

How do all these discussions turn to Greg and Andy arguing about the Miata???

:wacko:

[Greg Amy]

How do all these discussions turn to Greg and Andy arguing about the Miata??? [/b]
'Cause the Saturn ain't worth worryin' about...?

;)

[Jeremy Billiel]

'Cause the Saturn ain't worth worryin' about...?

;)
[/b]

OUCH!

OWNED!!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

'Cause the Saturn ain't worth worryin' about...?

;)

[/b]

Not bad...not bad... :D