Getting forced to run Production

[BlueStreak]

Since we've been discussing the merits of running Production, looks like I have a chance to do so whether I want to or not. Am I stupid or is there a problem with this run group?

DP, EP, FP, GP, GTL, HP, ITB, ITC, SPU

Teacher questioning students: Which class(s) do not match?


I was about to register for an event and noticed this, and I am not wild about running my ITB car in this group. Am I the only one upset by this, or am I overreacting..........please reply with your thoughts.

I know organizing groups is tough, but I've never run in a group arranged like this. Has anyone else? What was your experience?

[NutDriverRighty]

Go to the F500 discussion on Eformulacarnews about they're run groups. Of particular interest is the in-car video of (IIRC) Chuck McAbee getting HAMMERED[i][u]in the "Bus Stop" complex at Daytona. Got pounded by an SRF that "didn't see him". With an ITB car, the closing speeds (dependent on course, of course) could get insane. Are run grouping isses becoming more common, or just more talked about?

Scott Franklin

[Newbie]

I think you may be over reacting...

You are not getting forced to run "production", you are in a run group with production cars. Sure there are faster cars, but you still get to race with similar cars for position. This is part of sports car racing. Nobody is forcing you to get new wheels/tires/ECU mods/take out 20% of your weight/etc/etc.

I run ITS with Midwestern Council. ITS used to be with ITA,B,C, SSB, SSC, but now it is with the small production group+spec miata to redistribute car count. There are so many ITA/SM cars that run both classes, they had to re-assign EP/DP/GT-3 to the big bore group and move ITS over.

It was great being the fastest category in a run group so you could start in front and lap a lot cars. It's a little different being "out classed" but no less fun. It is their job to get around you, but if you see them and work together, you can both go fast. In my opinion, it's an extra challenge that is an integral part of road racing.

Don't get nervous about closing speed. Instead, keep aware and signal a faster car by where you want them to go. I'll bet you will both go faster and develop a mutual respect for each other.

Steve

[shwah]

I have run in run groups like that in the past. I find that safety has more to do with the other drivers than the cars they are running.

[924Guy]

Our local (Waterford Hills) group is pretty much just as you've described, excluding DP, EP, and SPU, adding in SFR. Generally speaking, yeah, it's less than perfect as compared to an all-IT grid, but can be workable. The biggest conflicts seem to be with the small prod cars and the SFRs; height with all (hard to see in mirrors) and slicks on the Prod cars (not as much of an issue).

The biggest opportunity for issues is, without question, the start; this can be mitigated by split grids (though that's not done at Waterford for our group, I wish it were). Seems to me that once we're through a lap and everyone's had a chance to spread out, there's plenty of time to be aware of the different cars and not lose track of them.

Again, lacking DP and EP cars, we don't have the closing speed differences, wouldn't be too keen on that but then again, that'll be happening during lapping, AFTER everyone's spread out, which will help cut down on the chaos.

So my big question to the organizers would really be to find out if there's a plan for a split grid or not.

[JeffYoung]

ITS plus EP and others at VIR in May was a problem for us (IT). I would say it was mainly the tire differences, with the productions cars carrying way more corner speed, etc., plus, honestly, I've never sn that much oil on track......

A couple of other guys were bothered by it as well; it certainly was not as cohesive as a group as S/A/7 usually is, but as someone noted above, a large part of that is you get familiar with the drivers in your normal group (which is S/A/7 for us) and it's just as much new drivers as it is new cars that can be problematic.

[x-ring]

... honestly, I've never sn that much oil on track......
[/b]

Um, Jeff, you drive a Triumph, right?

Have you checked your mirrors? :lol: :lol: :lol:



Sorry dude, I couldn't help it.

[JeffYoung]

LOL..I deserved it.....

No oil from me! I just sheared the caliper bolts on lap 1........must not have been getting enough oil on them.

[R2 Racing]

If this is anything like any regular regional we have up here, there can't be any more than a small handfull of cars showing up in those Prod classes. You won't be over run with them or anything. I'd much rather run with that group than with SM or SRF.

[charrbq]

Ditto what Kevin said. The problem with SM and SRF is they necessarily run in packs, and, as a result, tend to become incredibly agressive towards anyone they feel is in their way...IMHO. I've raced in a group such as that at Barber next weekend on several occassions...no problem. I was going to make the comment about the leaking oil, but I got beat to it. It is true, though, that production cars are highly stressed in many areas compaired to out IT cars and do have a greater percentage of DNF's as a result.
The only time I'm really encountered a problem of significance was on the pace lap once when an H car died and wouldn't get off the track. The car just in front of me wouldn't go around and tried to rearrange the rest of the positioning of the pace. I sat there stuck watching my competition drive off at a controlled rate of speed.
The group we are with at Barber is a good one. The fast cars will go away and not become a problem, just as the S and A cars do now. Besides, if I was you, in your B car, I'd watch out for the thundering herd of C cars. There's some pretty fast guys in that bunch. B)

[charrbq]

Besides, Eddie, if you don't run, then everyone will say you're a big sissy! :D

[BlueStreak]

Besides, Eddie, if you don't run, then everyone will say you're a big sissy! :D
[/b]

Don't start any name callin', I'm not above throwing parts at the cars behind me ;)

[JohnRW]

DP, EP, FP, GP, GTL, HP, ITB, ITC, SPU

Teacher questioning students: Which class(s) do not match?[/b]


This probably depends on your Regional or Divisional 'class definition', but the one that stands out is "SPU".

All the rest of those classes can happily live together on-track. If your SPU class definition includes 'clown cars' (Legends, Baby Grand, etc.) and modified variants of some sports racers, then SPU is the odd duck and has no business in that grouping.

[NutDriverRighty]

I run one of those SPU "clown cars" and wanted to address the last comment. I have a Baby Grand car with the standard 125 (or so)HP engine. I am about 1500# with my overweight butt in it. I am about the same size as the LBCs (most of what is in G and H production around here). I'm not as fast as the EP and DP cars, but I'm usually around the same speed as the Fs and Gs. I like to think that this is a pretty good place for me. However, since the engine rules are so open in the class, we also have Jim Kellogg who has an Esslinger midget engine that has been necked-down to under 2.5l. The rumor is that this engine is more than 200 and possibly close to 300 hp. It's in a 3/4 size Pro Challenge car, which isn't much bigger than a Baby Grand. There are also a couple of guys in the SEDiv with modified Hayabusa engines in their cars (200+HP). My question is, if these cars don't belong here, then where?

[NutDriverRighty]

Just as an FYI, the Baby Grand is actually 6" longer than a MkI Bugeye, it's within 2" of the same width, and the Baby Grand is taller. Both run slicks, both weigh about the same, and (with the BG in stock form), they have comparable horsepower. Just some food for thought.

Scott Franklin
ITA/IT7 and SPU
www.NutDriver.org

[JohnRW]

IMO, they should run with whatever group includes ASR, and the various sports-racers. They should NOT be run as SP cars...and by a logical reading of the GCR, they're NOT what is described. How did they end up in SP ? Probably because somebody didn't like the 'homologation' requirement for the places that they should run, like "X"SR.

Imagine that you're in a MiniCup car (which run in SPU around here)...you're driving around in a 30" high car that weighs ~1000lbs....do you really want to be contesting for corner space with a 3000lb. IT or P car ? I think not.

[charrbq]

Don't start any name callin', I'm not above throwing parts at the cars behind me ;)
[/b]
That's okay, I intend to be ahead of you. :birra:

SPU definitions and parameters being what they are...where ever they are defined, their classing is suspect no matter where you go. As to running with them, I'm not the least bit worried if the course is one that allows everyone an equal change at a corner or straight.

As to Baby Grands, Legends, 3/4 whatevers, 510's with Z motors, they should be grouped with Wings and Things as they more closely resemble that type vehicle than they do a mass produced car. IMHO Personally, in tight situations, unless they are driven extremely well, they can become a hazard to a production or IT car. The come up from behind like rocket ships and are so quick that they are difficult to get out of their way, and their cornering is normally a hit and miss proposition. I know I leave myself open for abuse, but that is the way I've been exposed to them with only a rare exception.

Also, a G or H Production car weighs in the neighborhood of 1300-1500 lbs. and is built like a tank. There is no way under the engine prep rules that a MkI Bugeye can develop anything over 100 HP...or at least not in regional trim.

[924Guy]

Just wrapped up the weekend... and we had a "fresh" Prod face in our group, one of those famed great "National" Ruboffs drivers in our group... completely F'in up our racing bigtime... and plenty of video to prove it...

...give those hacks their own pace car... :mad1:

[cherokee]

Just wrapped up the weekend... and we had a "fresh" Prod face in our group, one of those famed great "National" Ruboffs drivers in our group... completely F'in up our racing bigtime... and plenty of video to prove it...

...give those hacks their own pace car... :mad1:
[/b]


How? Can you post up the video?

BTW. I feel the same way about SM. Only time I have ever had M-M contact is with a SM, the first time I was the 7th car he hit in the same race, the second time one ran me into the dirt.

I think it is the driver and not the class, there are hacks in every class.

[924Guy]

Yeah, I know, still venting...

Sadly, the video from the race where he tried to run the whole group off into the grass (from pole!) didn't work - unknown video failure, my quad processor seems like it took a crap. Sucks too, 'cause it was pretty ugly! At any rate, I do have other amusing moves on tape, chopping both ITB leaders off, etc... those will be posted later on Youtube (have to process the video, chop it up, upload it)... definite highlight reel material. What's equally amusing is seeing everyone practically going off-track in passing just to try to give the guy a wide berth... as narrow as our little track is, none of us like to bend our cars!!

[JeffW]

In RMDiv, the run group is generally GTL, (E,F,G,H) Prod, IT(S,A,B,C), SSB, SSC, Spec RX7, ITE-U. When SM was a regional class and had 24-28 cars, they usually had their own run group. After SM went national, the regional fields dropped to 6-12 and Spec7 was added to the SM group to balance numbers in the run groups.

Only M/M contact in Spec7 has been with SM's, never with Prod, SS, IT, or GTL. Even got punted by a licensed SM driver during Driver's School a few years ago. SM drivers have progressed but still don't seem to play well with others on track.

Worst grouping I ever saw was DSR, SRF and Spec7. Saw the same grouping in the Supps the following year and immediately contacted the Stewards. They moved EP into the Large Bore Sedan group (GT- 1,2,3, AS, T1,T2, ITE-O) and moved Spec7 to Small Bore group.

Prod and IT drivers are mature and patient in their approach to passing lapped traffic. KUDOS to them. We all like to play.

Jeff

[BlueStreak]

After much gnashing of teeth, I've decided to go drive a friends car at the inaugural Memphis RallyX on Saturday instead. Here are some of the SPU cars that are running with the Prod and ITB/C cars..............

1972 Mazda RX-2
2005 BMW Pro Challenge
2007 mazda miata
1972 Mazda RX 3
1989 ford mustang
1969 Datsun 510
2005 MINI-CUP BMW
1997 Ford Thunderbird

I hope the event organizers make some last minute adjustments to the groups.

I'm going to try and visit the paddock on Sunday :birra: , would be great to say hi to everybody in person.