SCCA Club Racing for people who have turned 14 years of age...........

[ddewhurst]

Within the July Fastrack thread there are a couple comments about the CRB proposal to the BoD for approval to allow 14 year old kids in SCCA Club Racing.

This process continues to be open at this time with a request through the Club Racing Board Minutes for members to send ALL comments to the Club Racing Board.

It is my humble thought that this subject requires MANY of us to send letters TODAY with our thoughts to the CRB & the BoD.

My thoughts are very clear. With a swipe of a pen the CRB has done away with the requirement that competitors hold a valid Operators Permit/State Drivers License from their state of residence. Do ya think their is a reason why kids under 16 years of age are not allowed a state drivers license. In the early 90's WKA Karting did not allow kids under 16 years of age to race in senior classes. Do ya think there is a reason for the WKA logic. Do you have a desire to race with a bunch of 14 year old kids.

[Joe Harlan]

Within the July Fastrack thread there are a couple comments about the CRB proposal to the BoD for approval to allow 14 year old kids in SCCA Club Racing.

This process continues to be open at this time with a request through the Club Racing Board Minutes for members to send ALL comments to the Club Racing Board.

It is my humble thought that this subject requires MANY of us to send letters TODAY with our thoughts to the CRB & the BoD.

My thoughts are very clear. With a swipe of a pen the CRB has done away with the requirement that competitors hold a valid Operators Permit/State Drivers License from their state of residence. Do ya think their is a reason why kids under 16 years of age are not allowed a state drivers license. In the early 90's WKA Karting did not allow kids under 16 years of age to race in senior classes. Do ya think there is a reason for the WKA logic. Do you have a desire to race with a bunch of 14 year old kids.
[/b]


Too start with David, there will not be a bunch of 14 year olds because there are not enough parents willing to pay for this kind of hobby. WHile I am not a big fan of the idea it will be no worse than the 16 year old deal a few years ago. There just is not going to be enough of them to really make a big deal out of it. The only issue I have with it is what does it do to our insurance rates and what happens when we kill the first one in a big wreck. I believe this is another piss poor marketing idea by a select group of ignorant BOD members that think we should be a pro-racing group that club races for fun....They forget (all too often) that we are a club racing group that is paying for everything this club does.....So there you go.

Lastly they can't hurt you if you never get that miaaaaater out there and race it....:)

[mbuskuhl]

It may sound like a bad idea at first but I have raced side by side in the same group as a 13 yr old at two NASA events (they have those mini type NASCAR's that show up), it doesn't bother me. This kid can drive better than most the adults, he could be an exception though. Kind of scary at first when you see him, he looks like a little kid - http://www.dillonspreen.com/. Forget about what the government says with 16 yrs of age for a DL, the government rarely ever gets anything right. No, I'm not 14 - I've had my DL longer than that.

[Sandro]

I think the kid will be fine. You just better watch out for his/her dad, have you seen what some of these parents do at little kids sport events?

[gran racing]

LOL! My parents took me out of travel soccer when I was young because of how seriously other parents took the sport. Crazy stuff.

[toddgreene]

I know to be competitive, you have to drive your car like you have nothing invested in it...

However, take a trip to your local go-kart track on Friday or Saturday. Fourteen year-olds will beat and bang the hell out of each other because they have nothing invested in the karts.

I'm 42 and just starting. My conceren is that a 14 year old will beat and bang the hell out of me and my car that I spent a year building, only for a parent to buy another car for them the next week.

Todd

[Knestis]

I suspect that most parents willing to pony up race car dough to put a 14 year old on track won't be building an IT car in their garage. This is likely going to impact classes like Formula SCCA or whatever it's called, that are perceived as being stepping stones to bigger things.

That said, I remember karting against kids and their driving abilities were generally not an issue. I'd be more worried about the 50-year-old CEO Novice who's renting an arrive-and-drive Miata, and has neither the time/money investment NOR the young reflexes to back up his enthusiasm. :)

K

[RSTPerformance]

I suspect that most parents willing to pony up race car dough to put a 14 year old on track won't be building an IT car in their garage. This is likely going to impact classes like Formula SCCA or whatever it's called, that are perceived as being stepping stones to bigger things.

That said, I remember karting against kids and their driving abilities were generally not an issue. I'd be more worried about the 50-year-old CEO Novice who's renting an arrive-and-drive Miata, and has neither the time/money investment NOR the young reflexes to back up his enthusiasm. :)

K
[/b]


Well put K...

To me the more high level "Pro's" whom have SCCA "club racing" in thier background the better it is for our entire organization. A 14 yr old racing will probably have a good chance at a future in the sport.

Raymond "Started racing at 18 when that was the age limit... It changed to 16 that same year :bash_1_: " Blethen

[flaboy]

14 years old....maybe to young.But we need to remember we need all the new people we can for our club to thrive,young or old.

Maybe limit what class they can drive in?


Tim

[dickita15]

the problem is when you ask someone with a kart background how their new formula atlantic felt they say like a slow to react overwieght shifter kart.

I think these kid will mostly be in open wheel though I can see some in SM

[240zdave]

I have to say that I'm not all that comfortable with the idea of potentially racing against 14 or 15 year olds, much less teenagers of any age. There is a reason that the military recruits teenagers. They think that they are invincible, that nothing bad can happen to them, so they will obey orders without thinking, taking chances that someone older and wiser would not take.

Motor racing is a deadly serious sport. Bad things can happen in the blink of an eye. I am not anxious to be the victim of some teenager's bonzai move in a car that Daddy is paying for, so what if he bends it up a little. Daddy will fix it in time for the next race.

Also, heaven forbid if I do something stupid, I don't want to be responsible for injuring somebody's child or worse.

I don't think it is too much to ask a kid to wait until he can legally drive a street car before he can get a race license. Either that, or create separate junior classes for kids under age 16. It's just another case of rules creep. The age limit was lowered to 16, now someone wants to lower it to 14. Where does it stop? Will 12 be next? Will kids be sitting on booster seats in order to see over the steering wheel?

[charrbq]

I was a pimple faced 14 yr. old kid when I got my license in Texas. They've since changed the age minimum to 16, probably largely in response to how children like my friends and I drove. As with most kids, we were invulnerable and had driving skills far beyond those of our parents and other adults...so we thought. By the time I was 16, my dad had considered putting a body shop on retainer to fix my dents and dings.

People like Lewis Hamilton and others are proof that age is not a limiting factor in a racing car, but then, even though I've heard of some bad instances, Paul Newman can still drive circles around me and a lot of other people. I just question the logic behind lowering the age and then placing someone so young in an automobile capable of tremendous speeds and placing him/her on track with others. I know it's done all the time with carts, and they are fast, but their courses are normally not in the speed range of our race tracks.

True, most of these kids will be driving exotic formula cars so Daddy can use up his 401K before he needs it in hopes that his little one will make the big time and be able to support him in his declining years, so I shouldn't be concerned as I'll never see them in my "old guys" group. But the impact of their being on the track can still have an adverse effect on my racing if things go wrong.

Don't think that there won't be a lot of kids showing up on the track. If you doubt that it exists now in great numbers, then hang around registration or the grid sometime and watch for them. They're really thick in SM, and all the big formula classes. I had to prevent a 16yr old from leaving the grid for quailifying once, because he had on regular athletic shoes rather than racing legal ones. Reason was that his dad didn't want to spend the money on race wear as his kid was outgrowing his clothes so fast. I asked him if he'd rather spend his bucks in the burn unit and physical therapy.

I suppose the same logic applied in allowing 14 yr olds to drive a race car is the same that requires us to wear seatbelts in cars, but not helmets on a motorcycle.

[BlueStreak]

I suppose the same logic applied in allowing 14 yr olds to drive a race car is the same that requires us to wear seatbelts in cars, but not helmets on a motorcycle.
[/b] <_< agreed

This is a club where people and property get hurt. In a Pro series, I&#39;m OK with it because there are very few owner/drivers, so everyone knows the risk they are taking with their drivers and equipment.

As a club, we are primarily owner/drivers, and that changes things substantially. I don&#39;t like the idea of club racing with people who are not paying for the equipment, whether they are 8 or 80.

Somebody got a form letter I can use?

[JeffYoung]

This is nuts. the 14 y/o has no investment in the car, and no judgment. No way.

[7racing]

I thought I heard that this was in response to NASCAR allowing 14year olds and the perception that we were somehow "losing" to NASCAR in that regard.

If a 14 yo has been racing Busch cars for a year, is that enough to run an IT car a Regional? Is an 18 year old with NO experience better prepared for an IT ride?

I do not necessarily agree with the idea of 14yo, my qualification would leave it as the person must have a valid driver&#39;s license. If that is 14 in the state the event is run in, so be it, they can race with us at 14.

How will tracks like WGI that have age requirements of 18 (I think it is 18) to be in a hot area work with this? I remember watching a Daytona Prototype race last year and one of the Krohn racing drivers was too young to compete. I assume that will be the same with Club Racing.

[seckerich]

The Krohn driver was not allowed to race because of the restrictions on minors and alcohol advertising in Nascar who shared the weekend. Nothing to do with track rules. Still a bad idea to do it because others are.

[itracer]

So at 14 they can get a novice permit, but they cannot work a corner until they are 16? Doesn&#39;t the club lack workers more than drivers, or am I missing something?

You still need to be 17 min to enter the military and Nascar won&#39;t let you in the top series until you are 18.

I agree with the comment about levels of responsibilities. If we can&#39;t "trust" them to handle the flags, how can we race 100+ MPH with them at our door? We are not a feeder series, we are amateur racers.

[Knestis]

...Also, heaven forbid if I do something stupid, I don&#39;t want to be responsible for injuring somebody&#39;s child or worse. ...[/b]
Uhh, I&#39;m somebody&#39;s child.

I&#39;m not blindly advocating for this but you all are assuming that responsibility, skill, and judgment are proportional to age. Or necessarily come with age.

As far as "no investment," then my CEO example - for whom paying for a written-off Mee-otter is "front pocket money" - should be banned...?

I think the potential insurance/PR disaster is probably the most sound argument against but I&#39;m not sure it&#39;s as simple as some think. Of course, I coached girls gymnastics and have seen 12-year-old girls do lots of stuff that takes hundreds of hours of practice, good judgment, peak physical condition, and huge stones to pull off.

K

EDIT - and I&#39;m not sure it&#39;s quite right to equate what we do to "NASCAR&#39;s top series." There&#39;s a world of difference between a Cup car at Daytona and an IT car, even on the same track.

[gsbaker]

...I&#39;d be more worried about the 50-year-old CEO Novice who&#39;s renting an arrive-and-drive Miata, and has neither the time/money investment NOR the young reflexes to back up his enthusiasm. :)

K
[/b]
Hey, watch it there K. That&#39;s too close for comfort.

...and it was an SRF, dammit.

;)

[BlueStreak]

As far as "no investment," then my CEO example - for whom paying for a written-off Mee-otter is "front pocket money" - should be banned...?
[/b]

If it were up to me, yes, but I know that isn&#39;t practical to implement. I don&#39;t know where the poverty line is in this sport or how to quantify it (but I&#39;ll bet I&#39;m under it!)

Seriously though, "front pocket money" is more painful to lose than "Daddy&#39;s money" (depending on the Dad of course :lol: )

Kind of like the old Humvee joke:

What&#39;s the difference between a military Humvee and a rental car?
\
\
\
\
\
\
\

A rental car will go anywhere. :lol:

[charrbq]

There&#39;s one I hadn&#39;t thought of...age in a car and age on the track. Picture this...a 14 yr old driver&#39;s car becomes disabled and arrives at a corner station. As a person who&#39;s under age for working the race, he cannot get out of his car where he is of legal age. He must drive his car to grid and not get out of it...even to pee...because he&#39;s too young to be in the pit or grid area, but not too young to drive a race car. As someone who&#39;s under age in most states, he can not be allowed to walk through the paddock at many race tracks without adult supervision.

Did anyone making the rules think this one through?

[RSTPerformance]

I have to say that I&#39;m not all that comfortable with the idea of potentially racing against 14 or 15 year olds, much less teenagers of any age. There is a reason that the military recruits teenagers. They think that they are invincible, that nothing bad can happen to them, so they will obey orders without thinking, taking chances that someone older and wiser would not take.
[/b]

That comment alone means you and I wouldn&#39;t agree on a lot of things... I started racing every automotive sport I could once I met the age requirement, so I was once a teenager that raced.


I only bring up this name because it was mentioned earlier... and I know A LOT of you old timers love Paul Newman and think he is gods gift to racing but... He is probably one of the beggest offenders of all the stuff you think that a 14 yr old will make. I have never seen the guy race and NOT make contact with someone whom he is bullying out of the way. He is far more of a danger at his old age with his slow reactions than some champion shiftercart driver (who has probably been around the same track faster than you on a cart). Another example is the 40+ yr old who is in a mid life crisis and thinks that he can race... somehow gets through the school in and gets on track and can&#39;t even race anyone in his/her class... instead ruins some other persons race in a slower class (We ahve all seen it).

Point is as long as the driver young, old or middle aged is held to the same standards, licencing requirements, and "rules of the road" then I see nothing wrong with that person (young, old or middleaged) compeating with me... Remember they still have to pass the school, and we/you can be an instructor if you are worried that a safe level of driver skills is not being met!!!



So at 14 they can get a novice permit, but they cannot work a corner until they are 16? Doesn&#39;t the club lack workers more than drivers, or am I missing something?

You still need to be 17 min to enter the military and Nascar won&#39;t let you in the top series until you are 18.

I agree with the comment about levels of responsibilities. If we can&#39;t "trust" them to handle the flags, how can we race 100+ MPH with them at our door? We are not a feeder series, we are amateur racers.
[/b]

I do think that Jason has a VERY VALID point... If they can&#39;t work a corner then they absolutely should not be racing.

Raymond "Teenagers are bad really iritates me, even though I am getting old :( " Blethen

[dickita15]

I am not so sure about that. While racing takes requires some good decision to be made in a timely manner, I would argue that working a corner or driving on the street takes a higher maturity level. I think I would trust a kid for a half hour race more than 8 hours on station. I know I am less scared by a 14 year old in a race car than if he was driving the tow vehicle. I have had a few 16 year old students and was impressed with their seriousness and ability. I wish I could say the same for every adult.
In my mind if our insurance company is okay with it so am I.

[lateapex911]

Wow,,,I am shocked at the amount of generalizion going on here. tch tch. :018:

On the track, I&#39;ve been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.

Deciding WHO races on the track is up to US....as we are the instructors and the judges of skill and talent and judgement.

If WE do our job correctly, this is not an issue. If we don&#39;t do our job correctly, we have far bigger problems than worrying about silly numbers and generalizations.

[gsbaker]

Wow,,,I am shocked at the amount of generalizion going on here. tch tch. :018:

On the track, I&#39;ve been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.[/b]
Agreed. Maturity occurs at all ages.

[rabbidmk1]

I went to skip barber race school when I was 16, raced a season with them and then moved to a slower car (ITB) that was my own at 17, almost 18. When at Skip Barber there was a 14 year old brazilian kid that broke Road Americas track record 3 times in one weekend. I think if they are trained and have the money, let them race!

[Matt Rowe]

Earlier on in this argument someone mentioned we are NOT a feeder series, but remember the days when we were? When open wheel and sports car drivers came out of the SCCA ranks to go on to great things and were ambasadors for the club? Sure, there are many reasons that isn&#39;t still the case but one of them is that the major series are looking for 18-24 year olds to sign. If you expect a kid to wait until 16 (or 18) to get behind the wheel in SCCA then the real talent is going to continue to skip racing with us. Does anyone know how old the kids in the open wheel feeder series in Europe are?

As Jake says, we have instructors, stewards and a process that is designed to keep people of the track who don&#39;t belong there. Yes, we have all seen instances where that has failed but that isn&#39;t related to the age of the driver. We need to police ourselves in that respect. There are 14 year olds that are mature enough and capable of racing better than most of discussing this and if they want to race with us I welcome the competition as well as the future exposure. Who wouldn&#39;t like to say they raced with future Lewis Hamilton (and kicked his butt that one time at track X) For the ones that aren&#39;t ready the people at the schools need to stand up and say "wait a year."

[SLUF]

I knew I could not stay out of this one. I have a 16 year old who participated alongside of me this March at a driver&#39;s school. As his car (ITA RX-7) was not ready we rented another ITA ride for him. I had complete confidence in his abilities and decision making, also he had no pretensions about his driver skill. He made every effort to monitor his mirrors and allow faster, more experienced drivers all the room they needed. He sucessfully completed the school and first race!

At the second race in April we decided to share my POS318i ITB car for the weekend to complete our license requirements. During qualifying he dove under an SM at Gateway&#39;s turn three but made the mistake of the other driver not seeing him. The other driver chopped down on him pretty hard. His decision making at this point was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT given his limited racing and driving experience. He chose NOT TO force the pass as this would have resulted in car to car contact and a real big mess considering the traffic. He took to the outside curbing but did not realize fully what that would do. At that point on the track there is very little margin for error and he made contact with the wall ending our weekend. Even though his decision messed up the car a bit he was fully aware of what car to car contact meant for him and about ten other cars close in trail. Pretty heads up for a teenager I think in this situation. He did realize exactly what got him there in the first place though.

Now for some soapbox talk. My son obtained his learner&#39;s permit at the first opportunity in Missouri at 15. I had him autocrossing the first weekend after that. He also participated with me as a rider at track days for those organizations allowing it. On his 16th birthday I had him participate in the BMW Club&#39;s Street Survival School. He also continued autocrossing. He has clearly stated he wants to race and be respected by other racers. I did have plenty of discussions with him over how youthful agression may be a real issue in club racing. As far as his car goes, you wreck, you pay, you fix. This has tempered his driving on the track and the street, especially the street. He understands and knows the dangers of street racing and mommies in minivans/SUVs and Spec Miatas. I have complete trust in him behind the wheel on the track or the street.

Would I feel the same way if he was 14? Probably not, even if karting was on his driving resume. I do not believe there is enough "life" experience there to get in a real sedan or formula car and duke it out on a modern racetrack. I know a lot of karts are much higher performing machines than what our normal club racing has to offer. However I do not feel the risks are the same. Yes, you can die in a kart same as a sedan or formula car but my experience has shown that you can take chances in a kart that would be disastrous in a club race. I guess I am waffling a bit on how I really think. I am sure I would trust a younger driver, as long as the individual could get through an SCCA driver&#39;s school then why not. Us old farts are supposed to be the judges and peer group for all those youngsters anyway aren&#39;t we?

[JLawton]

There are exceptions to EVERYTHING!!

There are many adults that are immature idiots (you know them, we race against them every weekend!)

There are many teenagers that are are mature, level headed and are great racers.

I do remember when I was 14-16.............Trust me, you wouldn&#39;t have wanted to be racing door to door with me........I wasn&#39;t mature enough to make some of the decisions (especially the life and death ones) that we make every second we are on the track.

Yes, there is the kid that&#39;s been running karts since he was 8. But just like our concerns with a student in his first school coming to the track with NO PREVIOUS TRACK EXPERIENCE (remember, you don&#39;t need any previous tracK experience to go to an SCCA school). You can&#39;t tell me a 14 YO will make as good as decisions as a 30 YO........

No offense to any teens!! :)


I had to edit, I accidentally clicked the "drinking beer" icon!! Hmmmmm, not appropriate!! :lol:

[RSTPerformance]

I had to edit, I accidentally clicked the "drinking beer" icon!! Hmmmmm, not appropriate!! :lol:
[/b]


lol

Raymond " Aw Heck :birra: " Blethen

[lateapex911]

So, do we think the guy in F1 that was nearly in the points last weekend (filling in for Kubica) has about 2 yrs racing experience? He just turned 19

[1stGenBoy]

Here is my take on this matter.
My son ( 14 now )who drives a kart and has been at the track since he was 3 months old is ready to race. He would be 15 when he takes a driver school in my IT car next spring ( if the rule is passed by the BOD) .
He is the deal I made him: You can get your state drivers license and pay the $150.00-$200.00 per month our insurance will go up and drive around with your friends or take that money that would be spent on insurance and go race a car ( and still drive around with your friends only has a passenger). That would mean no state drivers license for a couple of years. What would you do? I think it is a very fair deal. I can&#39;t afford for both of us to race and for him to drive on the road too.
He has a vested interest in the car and has helped me work on it since he could. He torques the wheels,changes brakes,he has helped change motors,trans,etc. He also is a big part of our national race program doing crew work. Thoughts?

Bob Clark
#76 Cen-Div GTL 89 Honda CRX Si
#76 Cen-Div ITB 86 Honda CRX Si
2006 GTL National Champion&#39;s Crew Chief

[JLawton]

Here is my take on this matter.
My son ( 14 now )who drives a kart and has been at the track since he was 3 months old is ready to race. He would be 15 when he takes a driver school in my IT car next spring ( if the rule is passed by the BOD) .
He is the deal I made him: You can get your state drivers license and pay the $150.00-$200.00 per month our insurance will go up and drive around with your friends or take that money that would be spent on insurance and go race a car ( and still drive around with your friends only has a passenger). That would mean no state drivers license for a couple of years. What would you do? I think it is a very fair deal. I can&#39;t afford for both of us to race and for him to drive on the road too.
He has a vested interest in the car and has helped me work on it since he could. He torques the wheels,changes brakes,he has helped change motors,trans,etc. He also is a big part of our national race program doing crew work. Thoughts?

Bob Clark
#76 Cen-Div GTL 89 Honda CRX Si
#76 Cen-Div ITB 86 Honda CRX Si
2006 GTL National Champion&#39;s Crew Chief
[/b]


Good plan, let him race. But again, I think he is the exception not the rule. As somone said, it&#39;s the kid whose daddy just plunked down xx bazzillion dollars for a car and has that youthful "no fear" attitude that could make this interesting......

Jeff, "who hopes his son will some day show a "little" interest in racing...." Wanna trade?? :D

[gran racing]

Bob, you&#39;re doing things the right way. There are many parents out there that will not.

I&#39;m still not sure how I feel about this whole thing, and it most certainly depends on a case by case basis. I will say that there are some 14 year olds who I&#39;d feel more comfortable racing with than some of the people I currently do.

As others have mentioned, the 14 (or whatever age) still needs to go through the SCCA licensing process and be tested to ensure they are race worthy.

[1stGenBoy]

Bob, you&#39;re doing things the right way. There are many parents out there that will not.

I&#39;m still not sure how I feel about this whole thing, and it most certainly depends on a case by case basis. I will say that there are some 14 year olds who I&#39;d feel more comfortable racing with than some of the people I currently do.

As others have mentioned, the 14 (or whatever age) still needs to go through the SCCA licensing process and be tested to ensure they are race worthy.
[/b]

I&#39;ll add this: Since I am the Cen-Div licensing chairman I, will make sure that if a 14/15 year old asks for a waiver right to a license I will look at it VERY closley before I would even consider it ( hell I do this for every waiver request anyway,checking references,etc ). My personally feeling is if they want to race, they go to a SCCA school or two. The wrench in the works is the Pro schools that can get you a regional license after going through their schools. They would still have to go through Topeka to get the license ( anyone under 18 does) so I think there will be some checks and balances. Thoughts?

Jeff, I would not trade my 14 year old for anything! He is too much fun at the track. Sorry.

Bob

[RacerBill]

I can see the merits of a lot of different sides to this story. Bottom line is that I see advantages to allowing youngsters to race with the proper checks and balances. But I am not sure how I explain to my daughter who is seventeen, why she can&#39;t be with my wife in the pits at Mid-Ohio and someone three years younger can be out on the track.

One of the unintended consequences is the increased need to make sure that we have current cars for them to race. How many kids want to race a car that was thirty years old when they were born!!!

[BudMan]

On the track, I&#39;ve been hit by morons of ALL ages. I am confident that age has little to do with it.

Deciding WHO races on the track is up to US....as we are the instructors and the judges of skill and talent and judgement.

If WE do our job correctly, this is not an issue. If we don&#39;t do our job correctly, we have far bigger problems than worrying about silly numbers and generalizations.
[/b]

This is the best I&#39;ve seen so far.

Instead of the blanket change to 14, why don&#39;t we move the age AND ADD ADDITIONAL SCHOOL/HPDE EXPERIENCE requirement. Honestly, I am disappointed in how easy it is to get a racing license anyway. At my school hardly anybody had even done an HPDE, yet bought race cars and that weekend were racing -- slow, but racing.

Since I&#39;m in Kansas, kids at 14 get a permit, 15 can drive by themselves to school/work, and 16 it&#39;s open season. I would love to get my son to HPDEs and eventually move forward if he is interested. He already does a great job helping me as crew chief...escorted around the track at age 11.

It&#39;s really no different than anything else - training & support = success. Morons will be morons whether they are 14 or 60. :rolleyes:

[dickita15]

By the way one thing I ran into this spring in that you cannot waive a second school for minors regardless of prior experience without the signature of the VP of club racing. There are already rules so they do not shortcut the process.

[ddewhurst]

I&#39;m not looking for an arguement with my following words. :D Someone please answer why the following happened because as many of you have stated the SCCA has written rules for a Novice permit & the SCCA has driver instructors to be sure the rules are followed.

There have been two kids doing their SCCA schools in the South East within the past 5 or so years IIRC that crashed their cars (dads car) one even rolled the car in his (father is a past National Champ in a Production car) school & the both received their Novice permit. WHY did these two kids receive their Novice permit ? WRONG...................... (Please don&#39;t anyone tell me about extenuating circumstances, it&#39;s a friken SCHOOL.)

What the hell do ALL of the do gooders who are promoting 14 year old kids doing SCCA Club racing think is going to happen if (when) some driving instructor fails dad&#39;s little kid at an SCCA drivers school. Keep in mind this is a good ol daddy $$$&#39;s who can&#39;t wait untill his kid turns 16 years old or else it&#39;s the SCCA being afraid they&#39;ll miss a free meal ticket. There will be more WRONG..............

I understand the skills & lack of skills of Karters therefore don&#39;t go there. Daddy $$$&#39;s will take care of the kid with out skills. I Karted at the local level, the WKA Regional & the WKA National level in the early 90&#39;s. Most of the Karters in the class I raced were between 16 & 25 years of age while the fact is I was older than most of their fathers which the kids & fathers all got a kick out of.

[lateapex911]

David, you are talking about a failure of the system.

It has little to do with age. A failure is a failure, period.

It is up to US to choose WHO we allow on the track to race with us.

When I instruct, I ask myself, "Will I be comfortable racing with this person?" I answer that for myself, and I err on the conservative side.

If people are out there who don&#39;t belong, it is our OWN fault, not their Dads, or their age. Period.

[ddewhurst]

***There have been two kids doing their SCCA schools in the South East within the past 5 or so years IIRC that crashed their cars (dads car) one even rolled the car in his (father is a past National Champ in a Production car) school & the both received their Novice permit. WHY did these two kids receive their Novice permit ? WRONG...................... (Please don&#39;t anyone tell me about extenuating circumstances, it&#39;s a friken SCHOOL.)***

Jake, read what I said & take it to be a couple facts. Why did the above take place ? You tell me what failed..........

IMHJ when daddy $$$&#39;s kid shouldn&#39;t make the grade for a Novice permit more of the above will take place.

Like I said in the previous post I am not looking for an arguement. :D Just pointing some things from the past that happened for ALL to THINK about. The SCCA may have 90% good instructors in which case the SCCA needs to be concerned about the 10% instructors who may not be good.

[MMiskoe]

As an instructor I had a student who when I asked what his &#39;driving experience&#39; included he told me he&#39;d been driving a stick on the street for 10 weeks (he had turned 16 ten weeks prior to the school). Confused I asked if he had any track experience. "Oh yes, at one of the XXXX races you had to drive the car about a 1/3 lap to get to grid, so my dad let me drive it to grid that day". I told him that didn&#39;t count.

The car he had was a handful, he did some dumb rookie things (and his dad was waiting w/ a tire iron each time he came off track). But he listened, he was able to make changes when you asked him to and wasn&#39;t at all scary to watch. He got signed off.

OTOH I&#39;ve seen guys who have 3 digit SCCA numbers act like I don&#39;t know what, yet not have any idea that they&#39;ve even made a mistake.

Go back about 2 years and look at the thread that brought up questions about should we have a licensing program that encourages continued feedback to the new driver through the course of their first season, not just their first double school weekend. The requirements to get a license in SCCA don&#39;t really require that much experience, therefore skill & judgement can also be quite limited.

FWIW My 5 year old is pissed as hell that he has to wait 2 years to race a cart and 11 years before he can go in the pit lane.

Matt

[charrbq]

We&#39;ve all seen examples of idiots and juvenilles behind the wheel and on track regardless of their age. We have to look at it just as auto insurance agencies do. There is simply an age where, statistically certain individuals are more prone to being involved in accidents. Should we ignore that statistic and place them and us in potentially hazardous situations?

[lateapex911]

Yes, we should ignore that statistic!!!! It&#39;s ridiculous to even compare the two! Thats like price shopping for two cars that are different with different drivetrains!

What a young person does on the street is TOTALLY unrelated to what a young person does on the track!!


The bigger issue I see is the tightening up of the instructor system, and even bigger than that is the fact that once you have your credentials, nothing short of a massive run of errors can take them away. No matter what your age, 14, 44 or 84.

[Joe Harlan]

Intresting conversation with somebody in the insurance business today. The feeling is that the harm from getting one of these kids hurt or killed will be huge. The issue is that (i have not confirmed this) parents cannot sign the rights of a child (14 is a child in the eyes of the court) away so the waiver maybe able to be sued around. Clearly there must be some way around it as kids have been moto-crossing and karting at this age for years. Maybe there is a difference in the assumed risks since most states don&#39;t start kids driving until the age of 16. I have little issue with 14 year olds racing but I do have concern that SCCA could not survive another major lawsuit payout.

[charrbq]

Yes, we should ignore that statistic!!!! It&#39;s ridiculous to even compare the two! Thats like price shopping for two cars that are different with different drivetrains!

What a young person does on the street is TOTALLY unrelated to what a young person does on the track!!

[/b]
Explain "totally".

How, we take away the cell phone, hip hop music and crowded car full of similar aged children and replace that with maturity, judgement and experience.

[lateapex911]

It&#39;s "totally different because:

A- a state driving permit is basicially given to nearly anyone who can screw together the feeblest attempt at driving skill. Driving in America is considered to be nearly a "right", and not a privledge. Certain states, towns, or schools are better than others, but the gross efffect remains that nearly anyone who can apply for one can get a lic, and can drive at all hours and conditions, whether self created or existing. (drunk, or bad weather, etc)

B- the very nature of a young persons life means that many don&#39;t have cars, therefore they often share, reducing concentration levels. Add to that the instant gratification and percieved emergencies that are text messages, cel phone calls and MP3 song selections, and its easy to see that attention paid to the task of actual driving suffers.

C: the general youth driving population isn&#39;t interested in driving as an art, or as an atheletic endeavor, it&#39;s not seen as more than an experience at best, or a method of transportation, and is afforded, in most cases, the minimum amount of attention needed.

On the other hand.................

Someone who aspires to race cars is:

A: The rare exception....one in thousands

B: The act of driving a car on the track is one of total concentration....it&#39;s not a casual happening. A conscious decision has been made to do something that requires skill to do well...and the whole point of the exercise is to to do it well.....and the result is concentration on the task at hand, and a grasp of the severity of the situation.

C It&#39;s an atheltic event...a competition...and the entrant is deisous of performing at levels that most don&#39;t even begin to comprehend.

Comparing the average young driver to a young racer, and thinking that the same "risk factors" as described by insurance carriers applies is, to my mind, useless. They are worlds apart.

I contend that there are those who are young and posess the skills and judgement needed to perform on the track, and there are those that do not. Desire and financial ability can be common to both. It remains our job to ensure the first two are present in adequate amounts before granting them a Novice permit....and their age is actually not the deciding factor.

[charrbq]

Boy, you shot more holes into your opinion than I could even if I wanted to! Do you proof read all your posts?

[LMan]

The first 14-YO who gets killed/severely injured at a SCCA event will cause the SCCA to be sued back to the Stone Age for years to come. Ability is irrelevant.....all the shysters have to do is intone the word "child" about 2k times during the trial and the cash registers will ring until Doomsday.

[Stan]

The first 14-YO who gets killed/severely injured at a SCCA event will cause the SCCA to be sued back to the Stone Age for years to come. Ability is irrelevant.....all the shysters have to do is intone the word "child" about 2k times during the trial and the cash registers will ring until Doomsday.[/b]
This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10&#39;s of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age. The insurance folks who cover SCCA are also in those other areas of coverage and know whereof they speak (after all, they are in the business of providing coverage at a profit), and their position is that once a club permits non-adults (under 18) there is no significant additional liability exposure between a (pick your age) and a 17 year old. All are "children" in the eyes of the law. What "protects" an organization is its requirement to have a parent present, licensing standards and maintaining a controlled environment. That&#39;s why motorsports continues to thrive in this country. If the industry were in constant threat of being wiped out by liability this would not be the case.

[lateapex911]

To further that point, I&#39;d bet SCCA has better lic. standards than many of the organizations Stan mentioned. I&#39;ve been to some of those events, and the attention to safety is ...well, alarming.

[RacerBill]

To further that point, I&#39;d bet SCCA has better lic. standards than many of the organizations Stan mentioned. I&#39;ve been to some of those events, and the attention to safety is ...well, alarming.
[/b]

I needed to test my car before towing to an event, so I took it down to Columbus Motor Speedway on a test and tune day. The guy at the gate took my twenty bucks and that was the only person I saw other than the guy who waved me onto the track!. No tech, no look at any kind of license, NOTHING!

Last weekend I was at a vintage event and heard one driver tell another "Don&#39;t get hurt this weekend. They don&#39;t have a doctor on site!"

[ddewhurst]

***This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10&#39;s of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age.***

Stan, if you check you will find that in WKA & IKF Karters 14 & under are NOT allowed to race in senior (16 years old) classes. 15 years of age is considered a crossover year if their birthday falls within the Karting season. Therefore you may take a bunch of your 10&#39;s of thousands of under-16 kids out of your statement. ;)

[lateapex911]

I needed to test my car before towing to an event, so I took it down to Columbus Motor Speedway on a test and tune day. The guy at the gate took my twenty bucks and that was the only person I saw other than the guy who waved me onto the track!. No tech, no look at any kind of license, NOTHING!

[/b]

Sorry for the OT, but $20!!!!??!?!?!?!

Jeeez, a test and tune at Lime Rock is $250!!!

(And they didn&#39;t look, or ask what was in my trailer either)

[Stan]

***This argument would carry a lot more weight if 10&#39;s of thousands of under-16 kids were not racing in organized and insured motorcross, kart, NASA, Formula BMW, roundy-round and other motorsports events every weekend without those organizations being sued into the Stone Age.***

Stan, if you check you will find that in WKA & IKF Karters 14 & under are NOT allowed to race in senior (16 years old) classes. 15 years of age is considered a crossover year if their birthday falls within the Karting season. Therefore you may take a bunch of your 10&#39;s of thousands of under-16 kids out of your statement. ;)
[/b]
You missed my point, David. Irrespective of whom they are racing against, those kids are still racing in sanctioned motorsports competitions where they run a risk to life and limb, and those organizations are not being sued into the Stone Age. Chicken-Little cries of "OH MY GAWD WE&#39;RE GONNA GET SUED INTO THE STONE AGE!!!eleventy1!!!" simply don&#39;t hold up to any examination.

There are lots of perfectly legitimate questions to raise about permitting 14-15 year olds to race with us, but emotional appeals like this are not among them, IMHO.

Stan

[ddewhurst]

***Chicken-Little cries of "OH MY GAWD WE&#39;RE GONNA GET SUED INTO THE STONE AGE!!!eleventy1!!!" simply don&#39;t hold up to any examination.***

^ not my comment.

***There are lots of perfectly legitimate questions to raise about permitting 14-15 year olds to race with us,***

YOU did get MY point.