Should IT class be added to National ?

[thedemoguy]

Would you race more if you could race the nationals with out changing your IT car ?

Bill
#13 ITB Jetta from Nelson :eclipsee_steering:

[tom91ita]

"more" is a misnomer since i have only limited funds to spend on this hobby and so i voted "no"

less regional and more national would be the mix is more like it. i would cherry pick between the two with regards to what fits my schedule and what is the closer of the two.

actually i am doing that to some extent now with nasa Honda Challenge and scca regionals. the cost of one long tow easily pays for the added membership fees of NASA.

[thedemoguy]

I'm not saying change the present schedule, but add the IT classes to the National schedule and score them as a separate series or something like that, hell I don't care if its just for a plaque...

I will run the locale regionals, but if theres no race or if there is a race but a national at the locale track I would like to race it.

I have to race every weekend and would like it to be SCCA, but I can't afford to run a national class at the present time.

At Mid-Ohio next week the IT class will run at the National as a added class at a reduced $200 rate and they'll see a big turnout.

That's good for the track, SCCA and all the IT drivers that plan to go, I think it's a great idea.

If 40 IT cars register that's an extra $8000 to the race, how can that be a bad thing ?

Just my opinion.

Bill

[CaptainWho]

Atlanta Region often (usually) (?always?) schedules a "Pro-IT" race on National weekends. Classes are ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB, ITC, ITT, ITU, SM

[TAC]

Bill,

There are many people around the country watching to see how the Cincinnati ITSPEC*tacular works out. As the Race Chairman for the event I have to say that the interest in the event has been overwhelming. It could be that what you are looking for has already developing.

Todd

[thedemoguy]

I hope it all works out :026:

Bill

[NutDriverRighty]

Bill,

Willing to help sponsor the car, but need more information on the "expanses"!! LOL

Scott Franklin
www.NutDriver.org

[RacerBill]

I voted no because I don't believe that SCCA needs additional National classes at this time. My vote is slanted towards no partially because if I want to run Nationals, and the Runoffs, I can move my car to FP (lp), EP (fp) or GT3 (when my rich uncle gets out of the poor house!!!!!), so I realize that others woudl have different opinions.

I, too am registered for this weekend's OVR National/Restricted Regional, and while we only get three sessions vs four at a double regional, the seat time is a good bang for the buck. Yeah, we're being used to boost up the car counts, but as long as it's a good value, it's a good example of how we can help other racers.

[thedemoguy]

Scott

I would like to tell you what my "expanses" plan is but I think you voted no, so your not going to get any info out of me...no sir nothing-ford-you... :018: ..... :bash_1_:

Bill Super Fast Johnson

[Cobrar05]

I am in the ITE catagory and so I might be in a slightly different boat that some other IT classes. That said, I vote yes for one main reason. Racing is a competition. Like any sport it can be about just participating, but the base reason for the event is to compete.

At present ITE or ITO in Atlanta is a no points paying no series championship class where the rules are different enough that from one race to the next I can go from having a very competitive car to a car that is completely out classed. A national class will have more detail to the rules and better allow for a regional championship to compete for.

I can also see an opening for a national IT series anyway. If the MO event is as successful as it seems to could be along with the already big ARRC weekend, there are only a couple more events that need to be added to have a reasonably fun national points series.

SCCA owns Roebling Road and a race at the new track in NJ would make for a nice four event series. Something to consider.

[Despr8dave]

I thought the purpose of IT was to get into racing as cheap as possible. I guess I'm old school. I haven't raced in a while and when I started in IT damn near 20 years ago, it was the least expensive way to go and if we wanted a national class, we raced a national class car............I like my local region and SARRC just fine, but that's just lil ole me...........

David
formerly ITC Datsun 510 r.i.p.
GTO Silverado

[thedemoguy]

I don't want it to turn in to a nit-pik take it apart every week class ether, I don't even need it to be a national points class as I said, I just want to race at the national's....and CHEAPLY

They need more money, we need more racing...1+1=2...

If I go to Mid-Ohio and win I'm not looking for a marching band or my name in all the racing magazines, I'm just looking for a good time big-boy... :eclipsee_steering:

Bill I'll bet im faster then you Johnson :smilie_pokal:

[spnkzss]

If IT goes National I would have to put more money into my ITC Honda's motor than I did to build the whole car.

[jlinfert]

I would certainly run the local nationals if IT could participate. I'm not really interested in running for a national championship, but since the we can fit 2 cars in the trailer :D it would be practical. (My boss has an HP Scirroco). I mean we would be able to split fuel cost and run some of the more distant tracks ie Road Atlanta, VIR to name a couple.

[thedemoguy]

I'm not surprised with the way the poll is going but I'm very surprised that 2 of you are willing to sponsor me.
First I'll need money for this weekend at Mid-Ohio, you can put your name on the car and I'm certain you'll see it at the front of the pack, so If you would send me an email I'll give you a call and we can make all the necessary arrangements...

Thank you for your support.

Bill super fast Johnson
[email protected]

[kgobey]

:dead_horse:
The entire point of IT is that it is a "beginners" class... Now we all know the reality is that it might just be the best class in the SCCA and that the class is full of real racers, but making it National in my opinion is not the appropriate future for the class - though I do think it should be the appropriate future for the people in the class.

[JoshS]

:dead_horse:
The entire point of IT is that it is a "beginners" class... Now we all know the reality is that it might just be the best class in the SCCA and that the class is full of real racers, but making it National in my opinion is not the appropriate future for the class - though I do think it should be the appropriate future for the people in the class.
[/b]
The entire point? Really?

"Is" a beginner's class? Or "was" a beginner's class? Which class in IT are you talking about? The whole category? You think ITS and ITR are beginner's classes? They are pretty fast classes. Even ITA is a pretty fast class.

Not sure I agree with "is." SM is the new beginner's class, even though it's also full of real racers.

[lateapex911]

There is no such thing as "Beginers class", if there was, there would be mandated "moving up".

IT is a great place to start, as some of the IT classes have low risk cars ($$$) and speeds are lower. But as Josh points out, there's ITS and ITR, and who knows, maybe some class even faster someday.

The current structure of SCCA racing makes REGIONAL racing the "beginers" point of entry, but it's very populated with expert drivers.

[kgobey]

Yes, IMO it is an "entry level class" i.e. a beginner class. That's is the SCCA's intention... Is it in reality a beginners class? No... Of course not... It's a regional class that ends up hosting a majority of the driving competitors at most events and has done since I started with SCCA and MCSCC back in the early nineties and was before then too...

To your other point, do you really think "fast" is a real indication of competence? Should SM be considered beginner because the cars are 120-150 Horse power?

IT has it's place as the entrance point for SCCA's new racing membership. But since I started years ago I have wanted a version of IT at the national level, because the drivers deserved that level of recognition... But in fact should this really occur? In my heart I don't think so. Yes I contradict myself a lot. I am concerned that it would become as SM already has; a race of budget as much as a race of talent.

IT in places around the country can be as a professional and expensive a proposition as a mini-Grand Am race, but that's the choice those members made, to my mind these drivers should be encouraged to move up the ranks... BUT, the problem that needs to be solved, is how do we move these drivers up without costing them the camaraderie of the IT community and cost them thousands of dollars to turn their car into something else and yet preserve the position of IT as a welcoming starting point for so many other potential racers?

[Cobrar05]

I think the drivers should be able to move up in level of competition without having to leave their cars behind.

Thats the real issue. Generally speaking moving up in level of competition means a significant increase also in budget required.
I race nearly at the peak of my budget as it is now. If I reach a level of skill and consistancy, I might well want to enter a national race. I could do that with my current race package, but were I required to trade in my Cobra R for a T1 Z06 I couldn't afford to do that.

This is another area where NASA has a step or two on SCCA in policy. I can race my car in American Iron on a regional basis and compete it at a National Championship. I would like to do that in SCCA.

There are moves in that direction with the ARRC and the MidOhio IT-Spectacular in the SCCA. I applaud that. I will run the ARRC this season and have the MidOhio event on my schedule plan for 2008. That's enough for me now. However, in 2008 I will have a national license and no place to race with it. That's a shame.

[kgobey]

Hmm maybe people are emotionalizing the word "beginner" too much...

The idea behind IT is that it is a cheaper way to get into racing at a local and more informal way than that of a National Class.

Regions have the freedom to create (within reason) classes that are specific to their locale and region. ITR and ITE are just newer versions of ITGT... I mean back a while ITS was not wholly accepted either.

And really you shouldn't take the moniker of "beginner" so literally, beginner in this case is really just a place for those new to the racing community to join-in without the stresses, costs and travel entailed with a National class...

National and Professional series really demand way too much from a "beginner".

[JoshS]

National and Professional series really demand way too much from a "beginner".
[/b]
The proponents of this proposal aren't suggesting that beginners would have do succumb to those demands.

A beginner would still be able to have fun at regional events, and if they were so inclined, compete for a regional championship, against other like-minded drivers. They don't have to enter even a single national race, never mind do the travelling that those series demand.

Just because a class is eligible to race at national races does not mean that it no longer exists at regional races.

The "normal" argument against national eligibility is that big-budget national racers will build faster IT cars than low-budget regional racers, and therefore, the cost to run at the front of the pack goes up even for regional racers. I say that this is a theoretical argument, but it's not an issue in reality. That's because those big-budget national-minded racers rarely enter regional races.

[kgobey]

Well you're right to a point, but it's not really the case that a National driver wouldn't compete at the local/regional level. Of course they would. It's in everyone to want to complete as often as they can, and if "easy wins" fill the resume faster without looking like "easy wins" on paper, then they server their purpose.

What we need is a National Level IT class that allows for more changes that cannot be easily undone to allow for a progression without costing the driver that wishes to move up thousands and thousands of dollars.

I firmly believe in the sanctity of the class as a place for those new to this hobby, or we will lose new members to another organization, err, more new drivers to a new organization.

I like the concept, but just re-labeling this product as "National" isn't the answer I can support.

[Jakester]

The "normal" argument against national eligibility is that big-budget national racers will build faster IT cars than low-budget regional racers, and therefore, the cost to run at the front of the pack goes up even for regional racers. I say that this is a theoretical argument, but it's not an issue in reality. That's because those big-budget national-minded racers rarely enter regional races.[/b]

I'd say it is true. History says its true.
Look at A Sedan. Look at Spec Miata.

Yeah, the 'low-budget' regional racer can still race. But due to the 'big budget' national drivers that are in those regional races, he'll be running for 10th and on back instead of top 5. Yes, there'll be the occasional national driver who'll pit late in the race to let the regional guys get top finishes, but those folks are few and far between.


Just because a class is eligible to race at national races does not mean that it no longer exists at regional races.[/b]
Then sell the IT car and buy a FF, FV, Prod, or GT car. All of those have regional races....and nationals.


What we need is a National Level IT class that allows for more changes that cannot be easily undone to allow for a progression without costing the driver that wishes to move up thousands and thousands of dollars.[/b]

I don't think that exists....once you make it a 'National Level' class, it costs 'National Level' money to be competitive.

Heck, it's reasonable to believe that the ARRC's success helped propel us to the days of $25K ITS cars.

[OTLimit]

IT regionals are no different than the classes that have regional/national counterparts. If you can go to Skippy School or somewhere else and get your regional or national license, or your national license after a doing a school and a rent-a-ride weekend, what's the difference?

I have gotten really pissed off over the years about some idiots in the club who have flat out said that Chris needed to 'move up' and do some real racing. Okay, like doing every regional in the division isn't "real" racing. Winning the ARRC a couple of times, I guess, isn't "real" racing. There is no difference in the abilities. There are some real squirrels out during National races too.

Just get over the distinction, get rid of it, and be done with it. And the 24 classes with the healthiest participation get to go to the Runoffs.

[IPRESS]

The RUNOFFS is not the be all end all that many like to think. The ARRC is just as tough for the Regional Only classes that run.
It all depends on what you are trying to get out of racing. Fun, competition, and good people are at both regional and national levels. Regional Only probably keeps the $$$ spent down a little for the most part. And now with two big events on the schedule (ARRC & THE FESTIVAL) you have the best of both worlds. If we had a third big event a little farther west, IT would be BETTER then the National classes for sure!

You can say what you want, but you stamp a National designation on IT and the price of poker will go up maybe not for the ones spending a buttload already, but the class as a whole will go up. SM shows that for sure.

There just ain't a whole lot wrong with IT right now.


* Your opinion may differ, but that is why forums have posters. :happy204:

[charrbq]

Heck, it's reasonable to believe that the ARRC's success helped propel us to the days of $25K ITS cars.
[/quote]
Jake, you need to check out the adds for used cars at the ARRC. $25K is cheap in some circles. BMW's go for $50+ and 944's upwards to $70. You can still buy some A cars for $25, but even their getting rare. :blink:

[lateapex911]

Heck, it's reasonable to believe that the ARRC's success helped propel us to the days of $25K ITS cars.

Jake, you need to check out the adds for used cars at the ARRC. $25K is cheap in some circles. BMW's go for $50+ and 944's upwards to $70. You can still buy some A cars for $25, but even their getting rare. :blink: [/b]

Ads are ads...those are asking prices. Actual trading prices may be much different.

I'd wager that the $70K ITS car...that actually SOLD for $70K is a very rare thing.

[charrbq]

I wouldn't care if it sold for $50K and they shipped it to you in a velvet box. It's a freakin' IT car! You could've bought two and a half of them new!

[Chris Wire]

I learned a long time ago that "market value" is what someone will ACTUALLY pay for the car.

I've seen $12K cars sell for $8K, and $8K cars sell for $12K. That's what they're worth I guess.

[kgobey]

Heck, it's reasonable to believe that the ARRC's success helped propel us to the days of $25K ITS cars.
[/b]
Right, very true... a National IT car whether that be an ARRC car or a Runoffs Car is more expensive than a locally driven Regional car...

Regional IT is - even with the ARRC and PRO IT - is still a starting place for the locally-centric and low budget racers (these terms are not mutually exclusive)... I do know more than 1 professional racer that runs IT semi-incognito at the regional level, they do this because they can run a low-budget minded weekend and run with their friends. They do not push the $$ spent on these cars beyond what is reasonable because it is an exclusively regional class.

I have run (not currently) against them in cars admittedly held together with gum and sweat and have had relative success and more fun than I can say here.

To make IT National would ruin it. Lesley - OTLimit has an enormously valid point, but frankly, that's one guy (and I do I admire Chris), and does not take into account the plight of the "normal, new guy".

[BlueStreak]

There is a certain group of people that I will be side by side with whether IT is a national class or not.

If IT goes national, will that same group of guys suddenly have the money to go faster? No. I'll be running with the same group of guys, no matter what name is put on it.

Seriously speaking, how do you think making IT a national class will affect entry fees, field sizes, and seat time? I want to know before I pick a side in this debate........

My gut feeling is that making IT national would not be a good thing, but I can't necessarily make a rational argument supporting that "feeling" yet.

Entry fees, field sizes, seat time - that might me my new sig!

[JoshS]

Seriously speaking, how do you think making IT a national class will affect entry fees, field sizes, and seat time? I want to know before I pick a side in this debate........

My gut feeling is that making IT national would not be a good thing, but I can't necessarily make a rational argument supporting that "feeling" yet.

Entry fees, field sizes, seat time - that might me my new sig!
[/b]
Entry fees: no change. No first-order effect.

Field sizes: unknown. Initially, I predict that regional class sizes would go down as some drivers would take their programs national. In other words, the first IT cars to run National races would be ones that are currently running regional races, because it takes a while to build a car. A great majority of those that choose to run a National program will stop running Regionals, because there just aren't enough weekends in a year, and there isn't the budget to run a bunch of extra races. So National IT fields will be poaching cars from regional fields, and they will typically be poaching the front runners (which, BTW, will make mid-pack regional drivers MORE likely to be able to win races, at least, initially.)

But long term, I think it will increase the popularity of the category, and both regional and national IT fields will grow.

Seat time: clearly an improvement over a whole season, as if your budget permits, you can continue to run all of the Regional races you currently do, and then add National races to your schedule. Lots more seat time. I do not see any change to available seat time at a given weekend though, unless it is a regional/national weekend, when obviously you could now enter two races instead of just one.

[Racy-Stacey]

I've seen this discussion before.. :bash_1_:

Well the first thing is we cant have all IT classes become national classes. I think when the conversation comes up - its like saying - Lets make ITB a national class because it hosts the largest fields.

It sounds great on the surface. But others in ITA, ITE might get put off a bit.

I like the idea of having our own IT type national event. Perhaps some group could get together and put something together that would bring people from all around to partiscipate.

It would be nice to get some TV like the national guys and gals get. But we drive cars that people dont really drive anymore. TV wants to see fresh metal, Manufacture point chases and sponsors promoting the latest gear. It is a little on the older car side. I think I drive one of the newest of the old cars in IT right now. Maybe we can get a contingency race at a National event. Kind of like a 'Feature Race' of sorts but a New ITN (National class) would need to be created to show a National car tune.

[Cobrar05]

My situation is basic. I have a former podium at the Run Offs Touring One car. There are very few cars that have aged out of T1 and mine is one of them. Its a fine race car and I don't feel the need to pull the 5.8L engine and go carburated in order to race Asedan or cut the thing to shreds to race B production. But since there is no place for an aged out T1 to race other than ITE in SCCA, I have no choice.

ITE does not present the same racing opportunities as national classes run on a regional basis. There are no points to race for. My races are an exercise. Seat time and friendly competition, but I am generally not racing anyone.

While I am boxed out of a race class in SCCA, my car is a competitive NASA American Iron car as it sits.

I think its a shame and a real mistake in the system to force a top quality SCCA car to go NASA racing because there is not a points race left for it in SCCA. If ITE or ITO or ITGT can get me the racing that I want, then I am content. So I ask for changes.

[ScotMac]

As long it doesn't detract from the regional races, obviously there would be no reason not to.

In that vein, don't change the rules (or make them *more* restrictive to ensure the current level of regional competition), only run the National races at the end of the season as a finale for the top regional drivers and i think we can have the best of both worlds. Inexpensive fun regional races and the ability to compete at the national level.

Besides, my regional winning ITB Fiero needs some competition...well, as soon i get out of the novice races that is!! ;) ;) B)

[dsmith]

This is a tough topic to cover in a forum, but here goes. SCCA already has pro racing, so people who want that kind of exposure, and have the money to compete for cash prizes can do so. Even the National Runoffs are just club races. I would like to see club racing set up much like solo racing, where the class differences are by prep level then an approximation of car performance.

So, I agree with not having a national or regional class distinction, only regional, divisional and national race series distinction, and maybe only divisional and national at that (TX, for example, could not support a region only series). So, there could be maybe 3 levels of car prep, IT level car prep up to very modified, and use Touring and Showroom Stock to showcase late model cars. People could qualify for Runoffs from National series and divisional series races, with a max entry list by division. Track time would go up for current regional racers and come down for current national racers; something that would allow the classes to run in time allowed.

This would also fix the problem of regional and national classes not being able to run together currently, killing the ability to combine low count classes to save on track time. Major problem now in TX.

The money spending problem is not legitimate. There are plenty of racers that cannot afford to prep their cars at to the limit of the rules. If someone with money decides to race your class, oh well. The rules restrict the level of car prep, but still, my Spec RX7 originally cost $20k to build, cuz the owner was a check writing racer. Write the rules to keep spending to a minimum. Not sure how, since it obviously isn't working to keep motors stock in Spec Miata. Make IT rules more restrictive, etc,. Stock class autocross only really allows shocks and front sway bar, but national level drivers will spend $5k on shock development! So, you can still run your car regionally, divisionally and nationally in the same class, but you have to expect the level of competition (including the spend) to increase at each level. Club racing should be set up in a similar model.

David