LRP June 16 Supps

[Dave Zaslow]

Hello All,

Sorry to say I was not at LRP with you this weekend. For those of you who saw me limping at Pocono, it turns out I've pinched my sciatic nerve (prior to the races). I can't walk very well or far right now, certainly can't do the things I need to do at the track. Sucks bigtime. Hope all went well and you are all dry, if not warm.

At any rate I was perusing the supps for the next LRP event put on by NER. They state:

Oversubscribed groups – every effort will be made to allow entrants a chance to race. It is possible that classes may be moved to an earlier group or accommodated by the following procedure. Changes will be announced over the PA system and posted at the base of the tower.

"OPTION 1: In the event that there are more than 38 cars entered in a group the following procedure applies: Qualifying times for each car are compared as a percentage of the class leader’s time. Cars with the highest percentages become alternates. Cars with higher than 120% may be excluded. In single class race groups, the fastest 38 cars qualify.

OPTION 2: If a race group is over subscribed, the group will be split into 2 qualifying sessions. Each session will last 10 minutes. The fastest 38 qualifiers will race in the original race-group; the remaining cars will be moved to a different race group (chief steward’s discretion) as a consolation race. No points or trophies awarded for consolation races regardless of finish position. Cars that did qualify but not in the top 38, may wait at false grid of their original race group in case of a no show by a top 38 entrant. Alternates will be
filled using final qualifying times in the order they qualified, #39 will receive the first option followed by #40, 41, etc. Alternate grid positions will be after the last original qualifiers."

I would like some clarification. Is it the intent that since "class leader" in a mixed class run group really means class leaders? Is it the intent that the 'percentage of leaders speed' rule will be used in proportion to each of the classes in a run group? Lets take ITR/ITS/ITB as an example. Let's say there are 48 total entries in Group 6 - 4 ITR (8.3%), 24 ITS (50%) and 20 ITB (41.7%). Is it the intent to drop 1 ITR, 5 ITS and 4 ITB to the consolation race?

If option 2 is taken, will the separate qualifying session be by class or in a mixed group? I sure would want the draft from an ITR/S car in qualifying my B car.

If there are 'no points' awarded to those in the consolation race is it the intent that one would not even earn the one NARRC point for starting a NARRC listed race? How about the 4 NARRC bonus points for a race at a new track? Is the intent just not to award the 12-9-7-etc. NARRC points for finishing position?

I am not saying this supplemental rule is not fair. I am not saying this supplemental rule is not rational. Just looking to clarify what the intent is as written.

And I am very bored being laid up for a week and very frustrated not to be at LRP racing today.

Dave Zaslow

[RKramden]

I would like some clarification. Is it the intent that since "class leader" in a mixed class run group really means class leaders? Is it the intent that the 'percentage of leaders speed' rule will be used in proportion to each of the classes in a run group? Lets take ITR/ITS/ITB as an example. Let's say there are 48 total entries in Group 6 - 4 ITR (8.3%), 24 ITS (50%) and 20 ITB (41.7%). Is it the intent to drop 1 ITR, 5 ITS and 4 ITB to the consolation race?[/b]

No, If the tail end of ITR has a time at 112% of the fastest ITR car, ITS has 9 cars that are between 115% and 120% of the ITS leader, and the worst ITB car is only at 101% of the ITB pole, then the slow ITS cars get removed first then the ITR car, and so forth. Even if all the ITR and ITS cars are faster then all the ITB cars.

Calculate the speed percentage of each car relative to the pole in their class, and sort the entire GROUP based on those percentages. Bottom of the list gets chopped first, even if their absolute time is faster than a car in another class.


If option 2 is taken, will the separate qualifying session be by class or in a mixed group? I sure would want the draft from an ITR/S car in qualifying my B car.[/b]

Historically, grid lets the first half or so of the cars out (in the order they show up), then the rest. So the mix is dependent on who shows up when. Here is a fine chance for more strategy.


If there are 'no points' awarded to those in the consolation race is it the intent that one would not even earn the one NARRC point for starting a NARRC listed race? How about the 4 NARRC bonus points for a race at a new track? Is the intent just not to award the 12-9-7-etc. NARRC points for finishing position?[/b]

Opinion: "No points" in the consy race. If you don't make the "A Main" show, you still get the track time, but that is it. As for NARRC bonus points, ask the NARRC points keeper.

I would wonder what happens if the consy race is BEFORE the "A-MAIN", then two or three cars don't get to grid on time. Can some of the consy cars still run at the back of the "A-Main" race?

What actually happens is up to the chief steward.

[Bill Miller]

Simply amazing! Guess they're not going to refund people's money, are they?

Just another reason why that place isn't worth going to. Maybe if the Regions that race there keep losing money, they'll stop submitting themselves to the extortion.

[RSTPerformance]

well I am not sure what to think... will Lime Rock ever have any oversubscribed classes again??? probably not so this all might not matter.

But if I were in an oversubscribed class I do think for the most part this seems fair.

What I don't like is my already limited track time gets cut to with a 10 minute qualifying session.

What I do like is that if I qualify crappy I can race in the consolation race that I hope is BEFORE my actual race. After winning the consolation race I can start from the back (A blast to do at Lime Rock!!!) and run in that race as well (If people don't show at grid)!!! 2 races for the price of one!!!

The points is an interesting catch Dave, and it should be clarified. I thikn that the intent from NER is that NO you would not get a point for a start (NERRC/NARRC) or a finish (NERRC). However I think that you would recieve the bonus points for the track (NARRC).

Raymond "Not that I will be at LRP this year..." Blethen

[dickita15]

These things suck to write. I fell pretty sure if you did not make the field and had to race in the concy you would still get start and track points. I think the whole point was not say in the case of ITB ITS not to screw the B guys.
Bill, at least you get to race. I can tow all the way to summit and just be told to go home.

[Bill Miller]

These things suck to write. I fell pretty sure if you did not make the field and had to race in the concy you would still get start and track points. I think the whole point was not say in the case of ITB ITS not to screw the B guys.
Bill, at least you get to race. I can tow all the way to summit and just be told to go home.
[/b]


Please elaborate Dick. Were you actually sent home from a MARRS race at Summit Point? I know they've had some heavily subscribed classes/groups, but I have never heard of anyone being sent home w/o racing (because there was no room for them). I've seen 350+ cars at the Labor Day dbl and 50 car IT7 fields, but I've never heard of anyone being told that they couldn't race.

[Andy Bettencourt]

That is the point Bill. IF a group is oversubscribed, what would you do and how would you write it in the supps so it was official?

[Bill Miller]

That is the point Bill. IF a group is oversubscribed, what would you do and how would you write it in the supps so it was official?
[/b]

Andy,

The way I would do it is require pre-registration. You do it just like a big enduro, you close the registration when you reach your limit. If it's 38 cars per run group at LRP, you close the registration when you get 38 entries for that run group. This is the 21st century, people should be able to check the status of a run group before they leave for the track. If you haven't pre-registered, and you don't check how well subscribed your run group is, and you go to the track anyway, there's no one to blame but yourself if you don't get a slot.

What is written in the supps for the LRP race is not equitable. Let's Racer X who runs in Group A, happens to be at the end of the grid, 115% slower than the class pole sitter. Now, you've got Racer Y who runs in Group B, which happens to be a poorly subscribed group. Racer Y runs at 120% of the class pole sitter. Racer X has to run a consi, but Racer Y gets to run the main.

And the way I read those supps, you don't get to run the consi and the main both. If you don't make the main, you don't make the main, regardless of where you finish in the consi.

The short track folks have all these qualifiers and consis because they KNOW well in advance that they will be over subscribed.

Taking somebody's money and telling them they can't race is just wrong. Your car breaks, that's one thing, and we all accept that, but if they're going to set it up like this, they should either cut the registration at the group limit, or they should give partial refunds to those that don't qualify.

Either that, or run restricted Regionals and only invite certain classes. That doesn't address the problem w/ what happens when more than 38 cars in a single class show up, but see my earlier comments about pre-registration.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,

The way I would do it is require pre-registration. You do it just like a big enduro, you close the registration when you reach your limit. If it's 38 cars per run group at LRP, you close the registration when you get 38 entries for that run group. This is the 21st century, people should be able to check the status of a run group before they leave for the track. If you haven't pre-registered, and you don't check how well subscribed your run group is, and you go to the track anyway, there's no one to blame but yourself if you don't get a slot.

What is written in the supps for the LRP race is not equitable. Let's Racer X who runs in Group A, happens to be at the end of the grid, 115% slower than the class pole sitter. Now, you've got Racer Y who runs in Group B, which happens to be a poorly subscribed group. Racer Y runs at 120% of the class pole sitter. Racer X has to run a consi, but Racer Y gets to run the main.

And the way I read those supps, you don't get to run the consi and the main both. If you don't make the main, you don't make the main, regardless of where you finish in the consi.

The short track folks have all these qualifiers and consis because they KNOW well in advance that they will be over subscribed.

Taking somebody's money and telling them they can't race is just wrong. Your car breaks, that's one thing, and we all accept that, but if they're going to set it up like this, they should either cut the registration at the group limit, or they should give partial refunds to those that don't qualify.

Either that, or run restricted Regionals and only invite certain classes. That doesn't address the problem w/ what happens when more than 38 cars in a single class show up, but see my earlier comments about pre-registration. [/b]

But they ARE getting a race. It just doesn't count for championship points. The crux of that is that they weren't getting them anyway. The way the points are structured up here, anything outside of 9th place doesn't get points. Just your 'track' points and your 'start' points. The reason for this rule is to make sure the 'winner' of the consi race does't get 'first place' points when they weren't the best car that day in class. I actually think on some level that consi race would be more fun for some. Racing agaist cars of similar speed instead of getting lapped may be more exiting.

The only way Pre-Reg works is if you require pre-pay and/or penalize people for not showing up. If you don't, and there is no disincentive for not showing, you discourage 'extra' people from coming because they see it's full on-line prior to the race.

Either way, I don't think they have ever had to put this into action. It's a contingency plan in case it does. If you are in an oversubscibed group, you have to then 'make the show'. If you don't, they let you race in another group instead of sending you home. Sounds fair to me.

[RKramden]

The reason for this rule is to make sure the 'winner' of the consi race does't get 'first place' points when they weren't the best car that day in class.
[/b]

Actually, if your class has 9 cars, and 4 of them make it to the consi race, including you, and you "win", you dont get 6th place points.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Actually, if your class has 9 cars, and 4 of them make it to the consi race, including you, and you "win", you dont get 6th place points. [/b]

This is true Dave - and a good catch. The rule could be re-written to eliminate this issue.

[RKramden]

Andy,

It isn't an issue, it is the point of the rule.

Assume there is no consi race. Then the top qualifiers race, and those outside of that group pack up and go home during lunch. No race, no credit for running a race for license renewal, no bonus points, etc.

What happens if you have a mechanical problem making you dead slow. You may even have the track record in your class. Problems like a flat on the way out of the pits. Or an idiot that spins trying to warm up his tires on the out lap punting you into the wall and ending your session (but not his/hers).

With the consi race, you get to at least run a race, credit for running a race, just no points. That is WAY better than packing up and leaving at lunch time.