Pocono Supps

[jjohnston10]

I saw this on SM.com. NNJ region inserted language in the supps for the Pocono races that states that we are responsible for any damage that we cause to the Pocono facility. There is no limit placed on this financial liability. The supps state:

"DAMAGE TO TRACK FACILITIES: In the event that a car or entrant causes damage to any portion of the Pocono raceway facilities, it is the responsibility of the Entrant to reimburse the raceway for the cost of Repairs."

Part of being a member of a club such as SCCA is that the liability is spread among many participants. The insurance and other protection we get racing with SCCA is the major reason I chose to race with SCCA rather than the other racing organizations for the past 20 or so years. Luv the people in NNJ region but inserting this language in the supps. is just scary. My cars and racing equipment are paid for with "play" money but I'm not sure I want to play with the potential of an open ended financial settlement with Pocono if one of my cars causes significant damage to the track. Stuff happens. Anyone else as concerned about this as I am?

[Greg Amy]

Uh, absolutely.

I'm embarrassed I missed this in the supps, but you're telling me that not only do I need to balance the risk to my personal health and welfare, but to Pocono's facilities as well? Are there any details as to the limits of this liability and expected general costs for any "damage to the facilities"?

Seriously - and this ain't an idle threat - without more details I'm not sure I'm comfortable leaving myself open to this kind of financial liability...

[Doc Bro]

Usually the more vaguely written something is, the more protected you are from a legal point of view. That being said who wants to pay a lawyer to point this out to a major corporation. I interpreted this to be willfully, ie gross abuse or vandalism. But, should we as a region be bringing white wall paint and grass seed?

Makes LRP look better.......


R

[RSTPerformance]

When I first started racing on track (11 years ago now :blink: ) at Tremblant I spun my dads MR2 and brushed a guardrail... The track sent me a bill for $300-$400 for repainting that secion of the guardrail. I sent it back to the club to pay as it was never stated in the supps that I would need to pay anything. I don't think the club paid for it either, and we never herd about it again. The point of the story is, I was amaized that something that would have cost me $25 tops cost $300+ to fix.

I am not sure what you could damage at Pocono other than scraping off some white paint from the walls, but this certainly is something that has been done by other tracks in the past. Doesn't Watkins Glenn also have the same rules?

Raymond "My dad didn't even send me a bill for re-painting his bumper :unsure: " Blethen

[JohnRW]

This has also been discussed over at SpecMiata.com. Someone there suggested that it's a 'gross stupidity clause' (hammering pegs into asphalt, knocking down garage doors), but the language in the Supps is overly broad and could be interpreted to cover just about any damage - grass, fences, tirewalls, etc.

SCCA event insurance has 'property-holder' liability coverage. You can all read it for yourselves if you download and read at:

http://www.scca.com/Inside/Index.asp?IdS=0...=080%7C025&%7E= (http://www.scca.com/Inside/Index.asp?IdS=000070-6F47CD0&x=080%7C025&%7E=)

SCCA event insurance does cover this kind of damage, but since 'language in the Supps' trumps all else, you might be on the hook for a big bill if you harpoon a tirewall or take down some fencing if you have a major off-course excursion.

For street schools/HPDE, test days without SCCA sanction and some other race sanctioning organizations, YOU are liable for damage you cause. Most tracks will try and ding you if you cause some sizeable damage. Been a Race Chair a bunch of times for SCCA races at WGI, and filed post-race insurance claims for property damage and had them quickly and efficiently paid by SCCA's insurance carriers.

Somebody should ask why this language is suddenly in the Supps, and should ask if maybe the language, if necessary for some contractual reason with Pocono (....), maybe should be tightened up a bit. It's a little broad....

[lateapex911]

I thought that Mr Cefalo was a strong proponent of Pocono, and also happens to practice law. Perhaps he can shed some light.

I for one, and happy that I didn't get a bill from Watkins Glen last year for the dent I might have put in the armco. I imagine that a new bit of armco, plus the removal of the damaged section and it's disposal, plus the painting and installation of a new section would have been a four figure bill. Ugg.

It strikes me that we're paying thousands and thousands of dollars for the facilty, prices are increasing, and things like this are popping up, .......that it's a miracle the facilities didn't go out of business years ago........or that were getting a bit hosed now....

Seems to me that "race" tracks are ceasing to be "race" tracks, and are morphing into "lapping" tracks.

[Tkczecheredflag]

A quick story.

This supp was in play for an EMRA event I ran back in '96. We were runing the East Course on a slightly wet track. A good friend of mine and I were drag racing (counter race/reverse track) through Long Pond and as we turned into the infield he lost control of his X-19 - lifting each wheel off the ground sequentially, sliding through the grass, and hitting a ARMCO pole. He bent the pole - the Pocono track officials came to his paddock and collected $50.00 as I recall, maybe it was $100.00 - no joke. Pocono has been holding racers responsible for the track for a while.

If I could figure out how two post the video - I would share it with you.

[Bill Miller]

A quick story.

This supp was in play for an EMRA event I ran back in '96. We were runing the East Course on a slightly wet track. A good friend of mine and I were drag racing (counter race/reverse track) through Long Pond and as we turned into the infield he lost control of his X-19 - lifting each wheel off the ground sequentially, sliding through the grass, and hitting a ARMCO pole. He bent the pole - the Pocono track officials came to his paddock and collected $50.00 as I recall, maybe it was $100.00 - no joke. Pocono has been holding racers responsible for the track for a while.

If I could figure out how two post the video - I would share it with you.
[/b]

Tim,

I remember running an EMRA race back in the 90's (South Course IIRC) and hearing that the club got a significant bill for repair to the track. I never saw the bill, don't know if they ever paid it, and not sure exactly what it was for (from what I remember, it was for breaking off chunks of the infield section).

From what I've been told, Pocono would rather not even deal w/ club racers. The track mgmt is far from what I would call 'club friendly'. I also agree w/ the comment about that's what the club has insurance for. It's not that great a track, it's a sucky time of year (Mother's Day as well as usually rainy), why even bother?

[Doc Bro]

It's not that great a track, it's a sucky time of year (Mother's Day as well as usually rainy), why even bother?
[/b]

See above....if you want the bonus points you gotta go, period!

It's called a forced hand.

R

[lateapex911]

I doubt I'll ever go back. That place sucks. Ugly, bad food, and the track blows. If I were a REAL contender, I might reconsider, but...

Forcing a hand only works if theres a realistic payoff. For many, like me, there isn't.

[Wreckerboy]

This is nothing new on Pocono's part - we (EMRA) have been dinged a number of times in recent years for damage to facilities. One year it was for a chain link fence taken out during a Time Trial on North, there was the pavement issue Bill mentions, and most recently for damage to the garages. I don't remember the X1/9 incident, but I'd love to see the video if you ever figure out how to post it.

Generally speaking, Pocono management's approach has been that their business relationship is with the sanctioning / renting body, and they do not even wish to approach the individual responsible. It is then up to said sanctioning / renting organization to collect the money from its participants.

[lateapex911]

So, let me get this straight......the pavement broke up, and they charged the club!?!?!?

What a$$holes!

Thats so obviously flawed I don't even need to come up with a "That's like if....." analogy!

[jjjanos]

Generally speaking, Pocono management's approach has been that their business relationship is with the sanctioning / renting body, and they do not even wish to approach the individual responsible. It is then up to said sanctioning / renting organization to collect the money from its participants.
[/b]

Makes sense. The sanctioning body is the one that signed the rental contract.



This is nothing new on Pocono's part - we (EMRA) have been dinged a number of times in recent years for damage to facilities. One year it was for a chain link fence taken out during a Time Trial on North, there was the pavement issue Bill mentions, and most recently for damage to the garages.[/b]

The garages - yep, that should be chargable damage.
Chain link fence or barriers - nickel and diming, but yeah, I can see that.
Pavement- ??? Thank you sir, but that's an age/maintenence issue and I wouldn't pay it.

I mean, what next? The grandstands fall down in a windstorm and the jerkwads at Pocono charge the rentor for the repair cost?

Then again, Pocono holds all of the cards and if you don't pay by their rules, you don't get to play.

[gran racing]

If you crash, don't even dare to drop any fluids due to the enviromental studies that will need to take place and costs associated with that. LOL

This clause is pretty intimidating.

[dickita15]

The regions have made extraordinary efforts to keep Pocono on the racing calendar. I wonder if this will change after the NJ track opens.

[Wreckerboy]

Then again, Pocono holds all of the cards and if you don't pay by their rules, you don't get to play.
[/b]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Just from cruising around the 'net over the years, it's not just Pocono that has this approach. For example, I recall reading about the mess at Barber when the local SCCA ran there a few years ago and got dinged for "damages" (right, wrong, or indifferent), and didn't go back for a few years. Seems Barber had no problem filling the dates.

Supply and demand, guns and butter. Economics 101

[JohnRW]

What's that old song title ? Something like "If Your Phone Ain't Ringing, You'll Know It's Me". Some places just deserve to be abandoned.

[lateapex911]

Yea, after loking at the NJ track website (although I didn't see any mention of "racing" in it) I'd sooner drag my stuff down there than out to the moonscape of Pocono. Pocono obviously doesn't care, as evidenced by the "track" they provide,...the NJ track looks interesting. We'll see if it is if and when they pave it.

I would think that if all the events went from Pocono to NJ, neither side would shed a tear.

[Bill Miller]

Yea, after loking at the NJ track website (although I didn't see any mention of "racing" in it) I'd sooner drag my stuff down there than out to the moonscape of Pocono. Pocono obviously doesn't care, as evidenced by the "track" they provide,...the NJ track looks interesting. We'll see if it is if and when they pave it.

I would think that if all the events went from Pocono to NJ, neither side would shed a tear.
[/b]


Gee, ya think? When the NJ track will be on par w/ VIR, do you think anybody will even remember Pocono? The only reason I have any thoughts for Pocono, is because it was the first track I ever turned a wheel on. Other than that, it's a total POS. All they care about is NASCAR. They didn't do a damn thing when CART left because of the conditions, or when IMSA left. They could care less about club racing, it's more of an annoyance than anything else.

The fact that they charged EMRA for the track breaking up was absurd, especially the sections that were breaking up (South course infield 'esses'). I don't think you'll see many people lose sleep if there are no more races at Pocono (provided that there are other venue(s) available).

[stevel]

I wonder how much this stuff will start to creep in.

IIRC, WGI does this currently with HPDE events. They have a lot of the styrofoam barriers and if you (a student/instructor) get into them on track they send you a bill to replace the damaged ones.

s