Death of a championship [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

RKramden

05-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Many years ago, Henryk Szamota had the idea of starting a championship series known as the "Area 1 Championship." It was to determine the "champion" of Area 1 in all phases of competition. This included Autocross (gymkhana), Rally, and Racing. Henryk was a very competitive person himself and had a strong focus on not only winning, but being a real sportsman while doing it. In the book "Unfair Advantage", Henryk is mentioned as being one of the better stewards in the SCCA.

(Henryk was the national cycling champ of Poland for a number of years, spoke at least a half a dozen languages, and is rumored to have kept New York Region in operation by funding some of it's operation himself. On a sad note, he lost his wife (stroke) and son (cancer) on the same day in the same hospital but remained dedicated to the club and sports car racing in the northeast.)

Today, as part of NARRC, there is the Henryk Szamota Award to be presented annually at the NARRC banquet to the NARRC participant who “has shown the qualities of character found in Henryk Szamota – the founder of NARRC. Those qualities are Competition, Sportsmanship, and above all being a Gentleman or Lady.”

The Rally and Gymkhana parts of the club didn't continue on with the championship, and a region from Area 9 wanted to join as well, so the name was changed to the "North Atlantic Road Racing Championship."

In the early years, attendance at the NARRC championship was by invitation only. (I have this on good authority, as Marianne was the one who hand wrote all the invitations!) There were requirements on the number of NARRC races run during the year and where you were in the points. You had to earn the invitation. Then you would show up at Lime Rock and race "for all the marbles." Winner takes all. The system was very close to what is used for the SCCA National Championship today.

Over the years, some of the rules have changed and the invitation only rule was dropped, but the championship has always about being the best in the area.

Today, NASCAR is often the butt of many jokes because of all the tricks that the officials use to make it "entertaining" and to assure that the cash flow doesn't stop. Even the really hard core NASCAR fans are admitting that in certain ways the outcome of a race is "fixed" or "adjusted". Money is what drives NASCAR, not the competition, and certainly not sportsmanship.

NARRC was always about the competition, but the newest rule changes have a very NASCAR-like tilt. You don't get a grab at the ring this year unless you pay lots of money to enter most of the races put on at Lime Rock by the various regions. The championship is starting to be less and less about being the best and is starting to favor those who live near Lime Rock and/or have deep pockets. If you cannot make one of those blessed races for whatever reason, then sorry, you don't get to grab at the ring. The "stewards" of the program seem to have started down a slippery slope in the quest for money and are abandoning the concepts used when the series was started. Yes, racing has always been about money, but the latest set of rules have made money even more important. Skill is now in second place.

This year, I won't be look at a NARRC Champion is the same light as in the past, as there is a new layer of tarnish on the title. Yes, some who win will deserve the championship because they are that good, but the championship is no longer about simply being the best. Worst of all, the changes tarnish the memory of what Henryk was to the club and to the many people he helped in so many ways.

Andy Bettencourt

05-07-2007, 08:39 PM

Greg Amy won ITA last year without even having to attend the NARRC. Now THAT is hard to do.

I think you can look at this many ways. You SHOULD have to attend a lot of races to win. In the past 2-3 years, you had to go to Pocono to get those 12 bonus points. NO DIFFERENT that LRP this year. You can skip any of those LRP races and at MOST, you are missing out on 12 points if you win. For most guys it will be significantly less than that. Pocono is the real offender here to be honest.

But I don't mind that much. You should have to go to 10 plus races to win this thing. If it's tough, it's tough. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. You can't 'buy' a championship if your class is well subscribed, you get your best 8...go ahead - go to 15 but you still get your best 8. 7 extra points for participation is all...

Having said that, I have no problem with looking at a total revamp - I have and will volunteer for this committee. But remember, just as many people who may want a single-event champioship - there are others who want to spread this stuff out over the year so that 'real life' doesn't preclude them from a shot at the ring. It's a tough call. Pro's and Con's either way.

Eric Parham

05-07-2007, 09:36 PM

I thought the main issue was that a PARTICULAR non-ruinoffs race is now required at Lime Rock. This most certainly is different than the old bonus simply for getting to all the tracks at least once. I didn't get the bonus points last year for Pocono, and although I was disappointed that they weren't to be given for Watkins Glen, at least I felt that those who made the extra effort to make Pocono deserved the bonus.

Even though Pocono is usually a double, all one needed to do was finish (or start?) one NARRC-sanctioned race there (and one at each of the other two tracks) to become eligible for those bonus points. The new requirement to make a particular race at Lime Rock, while probably well-intentioned to try to make sure that a currently underfunded region doesn't lose money, makes a mockery of the merit basis for those bonus points.

The situation is probably worsened by the increased entry fee for that particular race (although most of us realize that it's more a problem with Lime Rock rather than the sponsoring region). I'm sure that even the NARRC members who voted for this year's bonus points system have probably realized their error by now. A points system that is supposed to be based on merit cannot survive such an obvious monetary corruption. A better option, and it might not be too late, would be to do something special to actually encourage drivers to attend rather than trying in any way to coerce them into it. If it's not obvious, drivers tend to be too independent for such a short-sighted tactic to work.

RSTPerformance

05-08-2007, 09:06 AM

The "stewards" of the program seem to have started down a slippery slope in the quest for money and are abandoning the concepts used when the series was started. Yes, racing has always been about money, but the latest set of rules have made money even more important. Skill is now in second place.

This year, I won't be look at a NARRC Champion is the same light as in the past, as there is a new layer of tarnish on the title. Yes, some who win will deserve the championship because they are that good, but the championship is no longer about simply being the best. Worst of all, the changes tarnish the memory of what Henryk was to the club and to the many people he helped in so many ways.
[/b]

Be careful how you use the 'Stewards" quote, and be sure to realize that the "SCCA Stewards" are NOT the ones whom make any changes or set any rules on how a region or regions conduct races and/or championships. They only enforce the rules they are given. - Just wanted all to be clear on that.

As for the comments, Andy, I agree that the Pocono rule is also bad for the series. Right or wrong I accepted it as it has been that way for years.

The additional rules that were added this season has not completely changed my thought on whom the "NARRC" champion is. At the end of the year each champion will need to be looked at closely to see if this really did or did not have an effect on the actual competition.

What these new rules have done is give me zero desire to compete for the championship because I never have run all the Lime Rock Races (couldn't afford it then, definatly can't now) and if it is required then I wont stand a chance, because many people will run all the events required. As a side note I have not ever concentrated on the NERRC series simply because I am not a 100% interested in running all the NER events, and my car isn't suited for the local track (NHIS). It is a GREAT championship that is far more fair, and is especially great as a local championship!!! Maybe next year I will simply think about that series...

Eric your comments are spot on...

What will be interesting to see is if anyone is able to grab a championship without all Lime Rock events and without the double points at the Runoffs.

Raymond :mad1: Blethen

dickita15

05-08-2007, 09:20 AM

Be careful how you use the 'Stewards" quote, and be sure to realize that the "SCCA Stewards" are NOT the ones whom make any changes or set any rules on how a region or regions conduct races and/or championships.
[/b]

Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are. :lol:
Raymond “rash” Blethen telling Dave to be care with his choice of words.

RSTPerformance

05-08-2007, 09:36 AM

yeah yeah, where is the foot in mouth "smiley" that I do need so often??? lol

Raymond "I am suprised you still read my posts ;)" Blethen

disquek

05-08-2007, 09:38 AM

Bottom line for me is: This is amatuer club racing. True sport. Not entertainment. Not for profit. The championship should not be used as bait to get attendance up and make more money for the regions.

The championship should stand on it's own merrit. It should be based on what the competitors think qualifies the winner as the best. Period. Nothing else.

-Kyle

RKramden

05-08-2007, 10:24 AM

Be careful how you use the 'Stewards" quote, and be sure to realize that the "SCCA Stewards" are NOT the ones whom make any changes or set any rules on how a region or regions conduct races and/or championships.
[/b]

Which is why it is lower case and in quotes, to expressly differentiate it from referring to those anencephalous (1)(2) people who populate the track on race weekends. :wacko:

The reference was to the stewards of the NARRC championship, e.g. those eight people who put such self serving rules in place.

---------------------------------------------------

(1) This is a footnote just for Dick, because he seems to like it when I post here with footnotes.

(2) anencephalous - adjective - characterized by partial or total absence of a brain [syn: anencephalic]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

lateapex911

05-08-2007, 10:49 AM

Dave, good post. Thanks for the history lesson. Nice use of a long word. I wouldn't say it applies to the entire subset though, but it still got a good laugh from me.

I also wonder if, in the attempt to bolster the attendence at events in an artificial manner, it might backfire, and actually reduce attendance at those events and others. Will some now just throw in the towel, knowing they weren't a strong contender, and skip other races as well? Perhaps in favor of other options?

And with the IT festival being so close in Ohio, and having lots of interest from lots of IT folks in a wide circle, I wonder if many IT'ers will decide to try some different tracks like MO, and others, this year?

Andy Bettencourt

05-08-2007, 01:59 PM

Solution time: What do we do? I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?

Eric Parham

05-08-2007, 02:54 PM

Solution time: What do we do? I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?
[/b]

I think that's a great idea. :happy204: I'd be willing to try to make a difference, albeit from a purely idealist or driver's perspective.

dickita15

05-08-2007, 04:24 PM

Working with Doug and Serge will have little value. NER is very lucky in that their entire racing program does not rest with one track. If we take a hit at lime rock cheap date will not be as cheap. If some regions take a hit it could end their program. NER members cannot solve this.

Doc Bro

05-08-2007, 04:26 PM

I think that this is indicative of a slightly larger problem. One of involvement. It seems that decisions may be made without group consensus. I do realize that pissing off everyone is a consensus...but it may not be best for the club. I find access to the "process" difficult to come by for many aspects of this club. I would be VERY interested in being more involved. How? While I don't think this is a secret back room, special password type of club, I do think we could do a better job seeking (or receiving) the help of our members.

R

RKramden

05-08-2007, 08:59 PM

Part of the perceived problem is that the NARRC committee is not representative of the drivers, it is representative of the member regions. It clearly does not act in the interest of the drivers. If it did represent the drivers then 6 of the 8 members on the committee would be from NER. A few years ago, Ms. Barnes asked me to count such things, and IIRC, about 70-80% of the entries in NARRC were from NER members that year.

There are a lot of trade-offs in making races NARRC races. It draws a few more cars, but it costs the region a small fee per car (somewhere near $1,000 per event, car count dependent, and twice that if the event is a "double"). I don't think that anyone can tell you exactly how much more or less it effects the car count. Any number would only be a guess.

If NER were to drop all NARRC events (and other regions to keep them), then the series would be smaller than NERRC, and just about all of their funding would go away. They certainly would not have money for trophies and checks for the drivers.

Because NER actually has two events at LRP, the "lock-in rule" is only half effective for us. Drivers can choose which one event they want to go to and skip the other. So it is a rule that really has benefit for the other three regions.

Also, it pressures the NARRC drivers to save their budgets and run LRP rather than other places, trading a track where they get more track time per event for events where there is little track time even if everything goes perfectly. Some weekends at NHIS have given drivers too much track time, with drivers complaining that they wanted some shorter races. (We once had a 25 lap regional as part of a double weekend, for example.)

I don't think there is any one solution that is good for all drivers. The only question is what is the best compromise.

The question for Serge and Doug is: "Do NER drivers (and not just the vocal ones) want the region to participate in NARRC?" Or maybe: "Do NER drivers understand all the implications of pulling out of NARRC in the first place?"

Maybe that is something to find out on Memorial Day weekend.

Dave Patten

05-09-2007, 09:10 AM

To me it is obvious that the 2007 NARRC rules changes are a reaction to financial issues first and not for series enhancement. There are issues I have with the way the NARRC rules are established and administered from a driver’s viewpoint.

First they are handled by the “administrators” of the Regions. This is not by choice, but by default. The competitors are not involved and by their lack of involvement the work is done by the administrators. For this to change competitors need to be involved. In NER the Road Racing Board meets monthly in Worcester, MA @ 7:30PM on a Friday. Few drivers without any administrative ties attend these meetings. This is where driver input and participation starts. If you as driver want to gain control of the NARRC series rules, you need to be involved in the administrative process; otherwise you are at the mercy of the decisions made by those that for the most part are administrators and non racers. (and I thank them for doing so)

Secondly, the NARRC series rules are established based on the “vote” of 4 regions. This grossly misrepresents most of the drivers in the NARRC series. Telling an NER driver, (who is 70-80% of the participation numbers, per Dave Lyon’s research) that they have 25% representation in the decision making process is BS. There needs to be a system that more closely represents the drivers. I would suggest creating a system that establishes seven (7) NARRC committee districts. Each district represents one seventh of the drivers from all four regions. The “districts” are established by taking a spread sheet listing all the drivers in the four regions and sorting the list by zip code. By dividing that sorted list into seven equal parts, you establish equal driver representation. Each district will then get to elect a representative. This will establish parity of representation by both locale and driver numbers, without Regional membership bias.

Just my opinions.

gran racing

05-09-2007, 09:59 AM

In NER the Road Racing Board meets monthly in Worcester, MA @ 7:30PM on a Friday. Few drivers without any administrative ties attend these meetings. This is where driver input and participation starts. If you as driver want to gain control of the NARRC series rules, you need to be involved in the administrative process; otherwise you are at the mercy of the decisions made by those that for the most part are administrators and non racers. (and I thank them for doing so)[/b]

Which Friday and where is the schedule posted on the NER website??

RSTPerformance

05-09-2007, 10:04 AM

Which Friday and where is the schedule posted on the NER website??
[/b]

http://www.ner.org/schedule.htm

Raymond

Andy Bettencourt

05-09-2007, 09:24 PM

But remember, going to this meeting will have no affect on NARRC stuff. Just ain't the right people. The reason I said Serge and Doug is because they can give us the off-line insight into the NARRC world and how we may become involved - as they are the NER reps to that series.

If we want it in the hands of the drivers, we need to take it.

benspeed

05-09-2007, 09:39 PM

Solution time: What do we do? I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?
[/b]

Count me in - I would participate on a NARRC race committe.

Andy Bettencourt

05-09-2007, 10:05 PM

Count me in - I would participate on a NARRC race committe. [/b]

That's my boy. One NER, one NNJR...who else?

bg43wex

05-09-2007, 10:20 PM

Time to chime in.

It never ceases to amaze me, how so many, who do so little (directly) with the operations of a series or a region can complain so much.

I will preface that statement by thanking Raymond for becoming a steward, Dave Lyons for being chief of NER starters among other tasks, Jake for his work on the ITAC, Greg divisional scrutineer and Dave Patten for driving Denise to meetings as well as always trying to be the driver who cares enough to show up at most every meeting and offering his as well as the opinions of other drivers.

Dick if anyone was to question your involvement I would have to wonder what region they transferred in from.

But for the rest of you ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?

You do nothing but complain from your computer.

Dave Gran, Eric and Rob don't just type, show up and get involved. The meetings are open to all.

If you are waiting for an invitation, don't! Those that have been asking for help for years are sick and tired of this type of rant when up until last January almost every issue of Pit Talk and the NER web site asked for volunteer help.

The NARRC series is broken and probably should be terminated. Somehow it has gone from a series that is run in conjunction with SCCA regional races into????? A monster. Somewhere along the line the "NARRC Committee" has generated the power to dictate to individual regions how to operate at LRP, (this is a problem), the series should be nothing more than points awarded from the finish of select events run at XYZ tracks period. They should not be standardizing supp's for regions or determining what region gets what date or who is responsible for operating PRO dates at LRP, or any of the many other issues they decide need to be solved, but they have been.

LRP costs approximately 68K just break even for an event run at the level you have come to expect. The operating region must pay in full the 53k rent 30 days prior to the event, if it rains and you cancel the regions still pay.

Do you care?

This is why the 07-point system was installed. Yes it is about money, large amounts of money and trying to lessen the risk of loss while racing at LRP is very important to all the regions. We are sorry if it doesn't work for you, but really why doesn't it?

It's pretty rare that you can win NARRC without running at least a couple of times at LRP and traveling to Pocono’s as well, so what's the deal? I believe Greg won NARRC without even attending the run off's in 06. You don't have to run all the LRP events unless you want or know you'll need the double points bonus.

Andy if you were as fast at NHIS as you are at LRP would you be more vocal about the issue?

For the last year or so I tried to not even read this dribble because I was trying to make a difference and your constant abusive mean spirited rants really can make a volunteer feel unwanted.

Just remember for 2 years I was quite vocal in trying to find a replacement for my job, I don't recall all those e-mails asking how you could help, if it wasn't for Serge who by the way transferred regions just to take over you where looking a problem, thanx you really have helped.

You wanna help become trophy chairman, all you have to do is estimate quantities needed, order them, deliver them and distribute them. No biggy!

Or maybe volunteer to be racechair for an event, easy just hump 1200 bottles of h2o 30 cases of beer feed 250 people dinner and make snacks for 100, but don’t forget the ice so the drivers can have cold water when they come off the track.

I now my sarcasm is an acquired taste, so if I offended you I did not intend to, but let me tell you I am sick of reading complaints from uninformed people or some with 1/2 information at best. Free speech is great, informed discussion is better.

You can start being informed this Friday night, the meeting starts promptly at 7.30

RSTPerformance

05-09-2007, 11:15 PM

Brian... good rant :)

Solution time: What do we do? I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?
[/b]

Andy, I am sure that I have bitched a little to much and probably pissed off a few people (ok I know I have). If I was still wanted I would certainly volunteer to join any committee reguarding the NARRC series or any other NEW series that we drivers might want to put together. My goal would be equality at all races at specific tracks or by all events tied into certain regions with 1 championship race that weighted more for the championship.

Another thing that came to mind is that all IT representation isn't what I would consider a good way to represent the NARRC series either as it consists of all classes.

Raymond

Andy Bettencourt

05-09-2007, 11:26 PM

Andy if you were as fast at NHIS as you are at LRP would you be more vocal about the issue?

[/b]

I guess 1/10th off the track record and coming from last to 2nd isn't good enough for you? <_<

I haven't said enough? I have written a ton on this. I UNDERSTAND the financial issues. I have NEVER thought you should be able to win a championship without going to all the tracks. I suck it up and go to Pocono on freakin MOTHERS DAY to have my ass handed to me on that drag strip just for the points - because (other than the date) it makes sense to me that this stuff gets spread out. I have suggested that the NARRC-offs be rotated to different tracks. I want to ADD prestige to the championship, not kill it. Do I like the fact that some of my competitors are skipping out on LRP because of cost? No. So I think that 'blame' is short-sighted? Yes. We know it's not a Regional issue, its an LRP issue. Do I like HAVING to make 3 specific races to maximize points? No - but that falls in the NARRC committees hands, not ours. We want to FIX it...or is that not clear from our debate and my willingness to try and help?

You know I was the squeeky wheel this off season when the inter-regional crapola hit the fan because you (and others) voted to 'penalize' NYR and MoHud with no double points at LRP because the politics got in the way. Who did THAT vote represent? Not me as a racer that is for sure. It was - and IS politcal BS. You and I talked at NHIS and I thought you had a great idea - take the NARRC (or another multi-regional series) into the hands of the racers. Isn't that what I am proposing and recruiting for?

You can start being informed this Friday night, the meeting starts promptly at 7.30[/b]
Oops - sorry, most of us will be at Pocono - because we HAVE TO BE. I keep wondering why the people who complain about the manditory LRP events don't complain about the Pocono event. It costs you more to miss that event. 14 points in your bag for just making 2 starts. But I UNDERSTAND - and do it. Heck - it's the easiest points out there.

Can you tell me how attending an NER meeting will help us with this NARRC debate again? I must have missed in when you slammed your fist on your keyboard this evening. There aren't many people who get involved when they think there are issues. To even infer I don't is rediculous.

Oh ya, thanks for mentioning my current service on the ITAC, SMAC and SSM committies as well as what is now my 4th try to volunteer as a committee member/lieson to the NARRC Championship. Guess not everyone can be doing a good job handing out water at NER events. My bad for not doing that too.

Bah.

Dave Zaslow

05-10-2007, 07:43 AM

Thanks to Brian for all of the good work he has done, and is wlling to continue to do, including being part of the NARRC committee. Thanks also to the rest of all of the folks who allow us to trot out our hotsy-totsy cars and produce a few minutes of adrenalin excess; from those licking stamps to those scraping our cars off the pavement.

I was asked to be the 'fill-in' NYR rep to the NARRC meeting last fall. I considered it an honor.

Chew on this:

Should a NARRC champion be required to run all of the NARRC tracks?

Should a NARRC champion be required to run a race from every NARRC region?

Should any race be double points? Should there be double regionals where both races have NARRC points?

Should we have a bonus equivalent to a first place finish for running races at three tracks?

Should the 'orphan' Watkins Glen race be elevated to allow the track bonus points?

What happens if New England Region declines to give written permission to NYR, NNJR and MoHud and not allow them an SCCA sanction to race at Lime Rock?

Would NYR. NNJR or MoHud be interested in hosting a race at NHIS?

LRP is not holy ground but it is seen as an essential cash cow for the racing regions. If LRP stops giving 'milk' what happens to racing in the northeast?

What if there were less NARRC races, say 1 Pocono, 1 NHIS, 1 LRP, 1 WGI?

What if Tri-Regions still had their racing (and money losing) date at Pocono and it was another NARRC race?

If Palmer is built it will be a NER track. What affect will this have on the NARRC regions?

If the New Jersey track is built, will the region that controls it want to be part of NARRC?

If LRP says we do not want to give the SCCA regions at least 5 weekends to run 1 national and 4 regionals, which region will lose?

I'm sure there are alot of other questions we can ask ourselves. Mayhaps we can spend a few electrons looking for answers that will help us influence next year's NARRC committee.

Dave Z

dickita15

05-10-2007, 08:18 AM

The Narrc committee is not and should not be designed to represent “racers”.
The four regions that run races and have a stake in them being successful are the Narrc Committee.
The regions owe their allegiance to their members, both racers and others.
The best way to serve these members is to put on successful programs, financially and otherwise.
Like it or not a member who makes no contribution to a region’s racing program will have their opinion valued less. These members has a narrow perspective.
Most members who work hard to make the racing program succeed just ignore comments on the web from the poorly informed that only see issues from their own perspective. Every now and then they cannot.

Greg Amy

05-10-2007, 08:53 AM

One thing that a lot of organizers up here don't realize - and I could be way off-base on this - but most racers couldn't give TWO SHAKES as to who's hosting any particular event. I would sincerely doubt that, unless they consulted the supps, most racers could even tell you who's hosting the event. In fact, every time I pull up to a reg window I have to ASK to whom I write the check.

I don't care. I don't care if it's NER, Mo-Hud, NNJ, NEPA, NYR, whomever. I don't care.

I don't care.

I don't make choices on whether or not to attend races based on who's hosting it. I choose races based on things like venue, date, cost, travel, alternate use of that particular weekend's time and other resources. I have NEVER even THOUGHT to use the hosting region as a factor in deciding whether or not to attend a race. In fact, until this pissy little inter-region fight broke out this year, I never even thought to look and see who was hosting the event.

Why not? 'Cause I don't care.

In fact, to this DAY I still don't understand why there's animosity and/or competition among the regions (I've got my suspicions) and in fact why there NEEDS to be individual regions versus one big division doing everything as a single group (same suspicions).

But, I don't care who hosts it.

Just SOMEONE host it: THAT'S all I care about.

GA

gran racing

05-10-2007, 09:23 AM

I feel exactly the same way as you on this Greg. I know this thread region territories (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11399) wasn’t popular by some folks, but it ties into what you’re saying.

Dave Gran, Eric and Rob don't just type, show up and get involved. The meetings are open to all.[/b]

Brian,
A while back I sat down and gave some serious thought about what I believed needed attention within our club and sport for that matter. Like you’re stating, I decided it was time to either put up or shut up. Just because my involvement isn’t specific to the NER, it does not mean that I have not been involved (much more than you know). Are there other areas I feel could use improvement and/or just offer my assistance? You bet and I will continue to do more than just type although that was an ironic pun. LOL!

I do get what you’re saying. At the same point, I also believe some regions need to make becoming involved easier, and less intimidating. You personally have stated how much time various positions take and the impact it has on people’s lives. You also said how it effected the amount of time you were able to spend racing. I’ve heard this from many other volunteers so this isn’t just specific to you. I am amazed at the sacrifices people make and sincerely appreciate what they do to make all of this happen. When people are told about this, does scare them away? Yup. I distinctly remember our conversation a while back and it made me very gun shy. If regions approached more people with “we really could use your help for even just two or three hours a month,” maybe it would be possible to spread the work load out more. Instead of one person doing a job, break it out among a few people. Instead of telling people to drive out to meetings, some of the subjects could be addressed over con calls and even the internet. The easier regions make it for people to become involved and not make significant time commitments, the more people you’ll find to volunteer.

Andy Bettencourt

05-10-2007, 09:24 AM

I just can't agree with you there Dick. A series committee should represent racers as well as the tracks and Regions it provides it's series to.

Dave,

Your questions are largely rhetorical. I would love to participate in a total redesign of a 'multi-regional championship series' - or 'large geographical championship series'. Things I would like to see:

- Double events. Pocono, NHIS, LRP, WGI. Whenever there are doubles, it drives up value for the racers. More racing for less money. Simple economies of scale on gas, food, lodging, etc.

- Double points and tons of track time at the Championship race. I think this elevates the importance of the race and provides good value. More importance has the potential to draw more cars. More cars has the potential to draw event-related sponsors and local contingency packages.

- Fair representation at all tracks. While I believe we should err on the side of where the racers ARE, we should also not be so short sighted as to think that if we extended the 'reach' a little more, then more racers would come from NY, Jersey and PA.

- The series should be run by a group not affiliated with the regions. A 'series' should be designed and brought to regional reps. This new series should look at all the available SCCA events at the 4 tracks, and then propose to these sanctioning regions that the new "Northeastern Road Racing Championship" would like to hold events in conjunction with their already scheduled event. Hopefully, the draw of the design and championship would allow these regions to pay into a fund for year-end incentives, much like the NARRC does now.

- With such a design, and lack of political and historical influence, one would think that event - or even a series sponsors could be found. In 2006, I coordinated over 12 individual contingency packages for the NARRC Runoffs alone. Could be done again I think.

- This new series should hold a minimum of 2 events at each of the 4 tracks, giving preference to double events with a hopeful total of 12 points events, best 8 going toward the year end.

- I would rotate the double-points championship event through all 4 tracks. In order to hold it, cool stuff would be required like photos and champaign on the podium, special chequered flags (like it is now with NYR at LRP but even more enhanced - how about a small 'vendor row' should the tracks not whack us for that?)

- I would eliminate large attendance bonses. I would give 1 point per offiical start like we do now but nothing more.

- I would eliminate any requirement to attend any single race (below exception)

- I would REQUIRE a start at the championship double to be eligible for the year end brass ring

I could go on and on but I have thought about this a lot. We have some of the best Regions, best workers, best cars and best drivers in the country in the Northeast. We should have one of the best Road Racing series as well. How we do that, I am not sure, but I think we CAN do it. This could be as simple as creating a new NARRC committee made up of non-region reps, under the NARRC name, with a few tweaks to the program/rules.

Doc Bro

05-10-2007, 10:01 AM

Brian if you reread my post you'll see I was trying to get involved. I personally don't care if your sarcasm is an acquired taste or not it's unnecessary. You may THINK that this is a subject that has been addressed before, and you may THINK that the organization is making getting involved easy, but you have at least two constituents saying it's NOT what you think. Sorry to break it to you man. I'd go friday....Pocono, sorry, how much thought was put into that one. Hmmm....an organization about racing having a meeting (in the opposite direction) on the night before a race. How about this let's have it AT the race.....easier?

People are TRYING to get involved to the best of their abilities. I understand politics and your frustration, and I appreciate what everyone does (on their time) for this club, however, directing your wrath at those trying to help you is counter-productive. With rants like that you'll continue to stand alone...........

R

dickita15

05-10-2007, 10:08 AM

I just can't agree with you there Dick. A series committee should represent racers as well as the tracks and Regions it provides it's series to.
[/b]
Andy it does if you follow the reality of my statements. The regions call the shots, they are the ones at risk putting on events. The regions answer to their members and are only successful if drivers want to participate and vote with their entry fee. The regions are not going to be governed by a committee of racers who have no stake beyond paying an entry fee.
Decisions are made by those that show up.

If regions approached more people with “we really could use your help for even just two or three hours a month,” maybe it would be possible to spread the work load out more. [/b]

Dave 3 hours a month is meaningless. Sorry but that is not a contribution.

gran racing

05-10-2007, 10:30 AM

Dave 3 hours a month is meaningless. Sorry but that is not a contribution. [/b]

Nice. These are the attitudes that prevent more people from becoming involved and am surprised to hear this from you. Since three hours a month of someone's time is meaningless, at what point does it provide even the slightest amount of meaning? If this amount of time working on even little misc. items is a waste, I can't begin to imagine of how little value it would be to the regions for people to attend the meetings in your mind. Sense some sarcasm? Just because you don't know how to obtain productive contributions from people volunteering 3 hours a month doesn't mean it isn't there. Get someone started volunteering and who knows where that could lead. 20 people, 3 hours a month. I know, still meaningless.

dickita15

05-10-2007, 10:53 AM

Dave, I am very sorry you find this insulting. I am honestly not shooting for that. You may disagree with me but I think any driver not willing to help for one or two weekends a year is a “plug and play” member.
I appreciate you believe I am not smart enough to utilize a 3 hour a month volunteer but that suggestion again would have more weight from someone who understands what it takes to put on races, and the truth of that is not many people on this board really understand that.
And no I do not believe that attending meetings is useless unless the one is going to show up at one or two and straiten us all out. RRB meetings are a great way to understand how this club works but it takes a while to get it. It really is amazing how few people understand the club from all the different angles.

Doc Bro

05-10-2007, 11:24 AM

Great post Greg!!! You nailed it for probably 90% of the racers out there.

Dick,
If it is amazing why so few understand the club doesn't that tell us something about the club?

example:

I went to the test day before the last NHIS race (thursday). Stayed the whole weekend (race sunday). Told Mr. Dunklee I'd be willing to help (along with my Dad) with anything that was necessary for the school EXCEPT any on track stuff. Now, most guys help at a school FOR the ontrack stuff. Was our offer used- NO... it even taken SERIOUSLY...NO. But then when you talk about these things (to shed light on you perspective to others) Brian gets all wadded up about people just typing and not doing. My Dad and I had a great weekend doing our own thing....but not helping out because we weren't needed....or is it "because we were not part of the club???" (how's that for sarcasm, Brian?)

We would've shlepped food, or H2O, or helped in registration you name it....hell, we even rented a golf cart!!!

2 guys-8 hours per day.

Noam needed help with the Memorial day school.....I was his first volunteer reply....

'Nuff said.

R

Andy Bettencourt

05-10-2007, 12:40 PM

The reason we don't care what Region hosts is because each has excellent workers. If the NER tech guys caused you pain, the NNJR reg people caused you pain, the MoHud T&S people caused you pain, insert any regional specialty...you would notice, you would know and you would care.

But again, this isn't about individual regions. It's about a championship coming to a track near you during an already scheduled event. If the championship is good, people will run it and regions will WANT you to come.

Jeremy Billiel

05-10-2007, 12:52 PM

I would add that this gets personal and I hope people can control their emotions. With that said, I am a believer that our club is full of good people, but major players need to do a better job of trying to attract people to help. No amount of help is too little, but IMO what I have seen is people look for help, but then its thier way or the highway to complete the task.

In order for any club to succeed, you need good educators and trainers. In fact these people many times are MORE important than the do-ers. Why? Because they keep the troops running and buffer the Sr. personnel from getting burned out, which seems to be the case over the last couple of years.

This topic has been brought up at the BOD meetings in the past and it is still something to think about. How do we attract more volunteers and KEEP them? I have some ideas, but this is at the heart of the problem for the volunteer situation.

Wreckerboy

05-10-2007, 01:02 PM

This is not my fight AT ALL, so take it for what it is worth, but....

We often face the same problems in EMRA - too many tasks, not enough Indians. I often hear the "All you have to do is ask" refrain. When people offer to help, I believe that they genuinely mean to do so, and I appreciate it.

The problem is that when somebody offers to help, by that point I (Official Somebody Hat on) are usually so overwhelmed by the tasks at hand that it often takes more energy / time to provide direction than to actually do it myself. I genuinely appreciate the offer of help, but at that moment I just can't use it. Your offer is good, it's genuine, and it's appreciated, but it's too late and too vague to be of use.

Sorry, call it bad management skills on my part if you want.

But do you know what would help? Instead of making an open-ended, well meaning offer, offer to do something specific. As in, "I have a golf cart, can I use it to run the fire extinguishers out to the stations, or can I run the materials up to Registration?" Or, "I've got a few hours free, do you need a hand on Grid?" Give me something specific for you to do, and it's one less thing I have to think about.

And even if you don't want to do that, and I understand the limitations of the approach, if I don't take you up on your offer right then, check back in an hour or two and see if anything has changed. As An Official Somebody With His Hair On Fire most weekends, I don't want to turn away help, I just don't always have the ability to step back and figure out what to do with it. Help me to help you.

Like I said, not my battle at all, so take it for what it is worth. Just trying to offer some additional perspective to the conversation.

dickita15

05-10-2007, 01:29 PM

Rob B, I am sorry that Alan had enough instructors at that event and did not need your help. I am sure there were many other areas that could have used you. It would have been great if you could have helped out at Tech, Registration, Race Chair or whatever.

Rob M Good post, thank you

Doc Bro

05-10-2007, 01:38 PM

Rob,

Absolutely agreed. However;

What is wrong with the folks who need help for something before hand putting out a general call on this BB like Noam did? That's a very easy and organized way to do things so that some new folks can participate. It's so easy to say after a race weekend that X didn't go well. Before the next race I'm going to make a call out for help on this issue. I find it hard to believe that every weekend goes flawlessly well and is perfectly staffed.

The bottom line is as an observer and willing participant who (as pointed out) doesn't know the inner workings of the club it's hard to be specific about what you can or want to help with. I don't want to be in the way. I want to contribute in a meaningful fasion, that requires asking and guidance. You can't tell me everyone who is involved in this club didn't make blanket I can help statements. You don't just join this club and become the RR chair or education chair...it's an evolution through the ranks. All I was trying to point out is that the "just getting started" part is not what we think it is.

R

dickita15

05-10-2007, 02:18 PM

To get back to the point, which is that there are drivers unhappy with the current point structure, the rule benefits the regions that are the most at risk at LRP. If you want the rule changed, that is where you must concentrate.
And second, decisions are made by those that show up. To form a driver’s committee and demand a meeting at your convenience, I believe is a waste of effort. It is natural that those that do contribute have more voice.

JLawton

05-10-2007, 02:22 PM

I agree with Jeremy, it's getting very personal and I truely think all of us here are out for the same goal. We just have different opinions on getting there........

This may be a stupid thought (since I don't know any of the politics....) What if the regions co-sponsored all the NARRC races? Split the exposure and split the profits?? Am I being too simplistic??

dickita15

05-10-2007, 02:46 PM

Gee I really did not think it was all that personal. Must be my lack of tact. Damn internet. :D

Jeff, your suggestion has merit and has been talked about. The upside is that it reduces the risk to any one region and does not pit one against the other. The down side is fiscal responsibility for a well run event is hard to define and the loss of competition may not be good for the racers in the end.

gran racing

05-10-2007, 03:00 PM

I didn't think we were getting personal; we just have different opinions which isn't a bad thing. Since I'll be begging Dick to tech my car for a new log book once ready, I don't want to piss him off too much. :D Additional people do need to get more involved, including myself. It just would be nice to begin wading into the water before making the jump in the deep end. Back to the NARRC stuff.

Andy Bettencourt

05-10-2007, 03:11 PM

And second, decisions are made by those that show up. To form a driver's committee and demand a meeting at your convenience, I believe is a waste of effort. It is natural that those that do contribute have more voice.
[/b]

Maybe I missed it, show up to WHERE? The NER RR meeting is not where NARRC decisions are made. If I am wrong, then you wouldn't have told me I was wasting my time with Serge and Doug, no?

I also don't remember anyone proposing a splinter committee 'demanding' anything. I think I wrote at the outset that I would get with Serge and Doug (as my Regions NARRC reps) and ask them what the steps should be. Actually, here is what I wrote:
I will get with Serge and Doug on how we can all get involved for 2008. If a drivers committee is needed, who is in?[/b]

So lets start from scratch. We have some members who would like to revamp the NARRC. How do they/we get organized and get involved Dick?

Doc Bro

05-10-2007, 03:49 PM

I am sorry if things seemed personal. I thought Brian was out of line, but that's just my opinion and he's entitled to his. I didn't mean disrespect if that was the interpretation.

Andy, I would be interested in helping if needed or if not needeed at least just learning more about it.

I also wonder why we keep points for the NER and NARRC so differently. It's very hard to follow. At one point last year I was 8th in the NARRC? points and like 30th in the NER? points (or vice versa) without missing one race and only 1 dnf. How can that be?? Is this a streamlined system? Maybe one system would give more clout to the championship? Like or dislike NASCAR at least the point system is visible.

R

dickita15

05-10-2007, 04:38 PM

To get back to the point, which is that there are drivers unhappy with the current point structure, the rule benefits the regions that are the most at risk at LRP. If you want the rule changed, that is where you must concentrate.
[/b]
Andy I thought I gave that answer in the part of my reply you did not quote.
The only thing any one region can do is cajole or withdraw from Narrc if they are not happy with the committees vote.

I also wonder why we keep points for the NER and NARRC so differently. It's very hard to follow. At one point last year I was 8th in the NARRC? points and like 30th in the NER? points (or vice versa) without missing one race and only 1 dnf. How can that be?? Is this a streamlined system? Maybe one system would give more clout to the championship? Like or dislike NASCAR at least the point system is visible.

R
[/b]
Rob, forgive me if I am being insultingly simple but you are comparing apples and oranges. Two different rule sets. NERRC is simple NER regionals. Obviously this creates a NHIS weighted series.
Narrc is a lot more difficult with 4 core regions and guests with races at 4 tracks and a convoluted rule set based on everyone preserving their turf. Movement with Narrc rules is slow and frustrating.

Doc Bro

05-10-2007, 04:54 PM

RSTPerformance

05-10-2007, 06:21 PM

No foregiveness needed. I understand the basics with the different regions, I was wondering if: 1 it is wise to have a 2 caste system? 2. can the same "point doling out process" apply to both series such that the NER series runs as "sort of" a subset of the NARRC points? 3. do the other regions have a NER equivalent champion?

Dick, please foregive my ignorance. If I seem to be totally confused it's because I am.....and this is my 3rd year in the series. See what I mean........ :D

R
[/b]

Each region has its own series... and it should stay like that. All the individual series are run well and cater towards the regions specific members. The NARRC series is a series that runs throughout a combination of regions and is falling apart due to many factors, mostly interregion polotics.

IMO to make it simple, invite all regions in the northeast and invite all regions races to count towards the points. If a "region" doesn't like the fact that another regions has more races thus thier drivers have a better chance or the series is more weighted for them, well then host more races. If a driver has similar problems then they can attend the Road Racing Board meetings and complain to there specific region and/or work/volunteer within thier region to make a change. Its simple IMO.

What is difficult for me is figuring out how to get involved with how the NARRC series is run. If we don't like how the NARRC series is run and decide not to go it not only effect the series but more importantly the regions. For that simple reason drivers should be the customers of NARRC, not the members whom are customers of the regions. I have spent a great deal of time within SCCA but not nearly as much as the core select people that run our regions. IMO inorder to make changes to the NARRC series one has to be a lifelong dedicated member.

Unfortunatly nobody can just walk up and volunteer to help and actually make a difference in the NARRC series, all someone can do is help with making an event or specialty (registration, tech, grid, stewards, flagging, T&S, etc) run smoothly (or better). If they dedicate a lot of time sure they can help a region run better, but that still won't have any much if any effect on the NARRC series. Please take this as a compliment and appreciation- Only people whom have dedicated years of volunteering can make a big difference, such people in NER as kathy B., Dick P, and Brian M. All are great examples of people we need and love (dispite disagreements) and whom poses the knowledge, connections, respect, and availablity to dedicate themselves to making a change within the regions.

I wish it were different, but it isn't. We might not like it, and I think that those whom "have the power" don't realize how hard it will be to fill your shoes should you ever decide to retire.

Raymond

PS: The above is trying to say if you attend one RRB meeting and expect to make a difference, you will feel like you have wasted your time (unless a specific topic of your interest is discussed and resolved). You need to go for at least a year and continue working at understanding EVERYTHING and getting involved.

RKramden

05-10-2007, 06:26 PM

RSTPerformance

05-10-2007, 06:30 PM

D - Married to the NERRC and NEDIV points keeper
[/b]

Dave-

Can you explain how the NEDIV points championship works? Personally I think that is how the NARRC series should be run. A respectful divisional chamionship for "regional racers."

Raymond

RKramden

05-10-2007, 09:02 PM

Can you explain how the NEDIV points championship works? Personally I think that is how the NARRC series should be run. A respectful divisional championship for "regional racers."
[/b]

Dear Mr. Steward,

I could tell you, but then, I would have to call that special number and "they" would send out a special team to take care of you. B)

Or, simply read GCR to section 3.9.1.A (on something like page 16) and see what it says.

And here I thought the stewards were experts on what is in the GCR. I've been told that by many stewards.

I guess this means that stewards are even worse about reading the rules that drivers. :018:

Is this proof that stewards are anencephalic?

D :blink: - who doesn't even think about those rules because he wrote a bunch of Excel macros that do all of it for him.

For those who are GCR challenged, it is basically best 6 races, of which at most 2 can be from out of division.
Note that there are only 8 or 9 in division races to begin with, so it is about 75% of the races count, if you run that many. No "bonus" points, no other crap, run your races, collect the most points. Very few drivers make it to 72 points in any year (The max), and some classes are so poorly contested that if you show up and finish dead last in every race, you still could be class champ.

NEDIV has way more times as many regional races, so best 6 wouldn't work. But, best 10 might.

Using this format for the whole division wouldn't mean much unless there was a "winner take all" race at the end. It needs to fold all the NYSRRC, MARRS, and NARRC drivers together if it is going to fly.

Technically doable, but a political nightmare.

bg43wex

05-10-2007, 09:19 PM

A regions main concern is more about putting on a well attended and financially (they go together) succeful event, more than they care what series is running.

The races came first then the series or gimmick theme where added to enhance the races. most entrants only run a few races a year in order to maintain their license or just run some races for fun.

I say this because when we sit down and start planning events very little discussion is used in regards to what series is running at what track and when unless it's an add on like vintage who might add run groups to a day.

NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC who cares? a region runs events it doesn't enforce series rules, series administrators do and none of these series have them.

I'll go back to my original post KILL NARRC! and start over. start a series that asks a region if you can piggyback on their event charge $6 per entrant and take the results as they stand, come up with some sort of championship structure for events run, total points and you have the new... series.

This is the format Formula Ford uses for the New England Challenge.

FYI, NER's meeting tommorrow unfortunatley is opposite NNJR at Pocono, but please remember this is also the third weekend in 4 that the NER crew will be working. many will also work next week at LRP for MoHud then back to NHIS for memorial day. we fit these important meetings in where we can not when it works for everyone.

I harp on the get involved wagen the most because if you don't understand how an event is run you can't fully undesrtand the dynamic of the piggyback series that opperate at an event.

Just like my daddy always said you can't be a little pregnant, in for a penny in for a pound. if you want to help do it, come to a meeting, volunteer at tech, flag, work in timing or registration on a friday night but do something that will help you start to understand regional opperations. I can guarantee an eye opening education.

thanx for the nice words Raymond, you always were my favorite twin
:OLA:

RSTPerformance

05-10-2007, 09:44 PM

Dave-

I thought your real life experiences with your wife being the pointskeeper might add a little more than the black and white (and gray) GCR that knowbody (even Stewards :unsure: ) knows by heart. The championship series is not something traditionaly enforced by the Stewards, but rather the pointskeeper and/or region/division. As I can see by your responce you do actually know a little, but don't let your ego grow to much from that compliment... Feel free to PM or start new threads with "steward quizes" from the GCR and I am sure I can get darn close to a 100%.. but that is all up to interpretation.

Raymond "Unlike you I don't keep a GCR with me 24/7/365 :wacko: " Blethen :birra:

PS: Brian... lol

RKramden

05-11-2007, 10:12 AM

I'll go back to my original post KILL NARRC! and start over.
[/b]

I seem to remember sitting at a NEDIV meeting with the person sitting next to me chanting "NESCCA must DIE. NESCCA must DIE." Maybe the two of you should pool resources, and with a few more supporters, you can kill off NARRC and get rid of all the special interest entitlements in the process.

:OLA: :OLA: :OLA:

bg43wex

05-11-2007, 02:30 PM

would it be a special interest entitlement if you got one?

ITB40

05-24-2007, 03:02 PM

I discovered this forum while "surfing" and wished I had known about it sooner. On the other hand, I may regret getting into this very difficult discussion. I have read most of your comments with interest as I presently serve as the Driver's Rep to the NARRC Committee from NNJR. The committee is made up of each of the four region's REs and a Driver's Rep from each or eight members in all. From my perspective, the changes in the points this year was driven by a serious financial problem - the very significant increases in track rental at Lime Rock. The entry from this past weekend's MoHud regional put an exclamation point on the seriousness of this problem. I suspect that Mohud took a very hard hit financially and no doubt the other regions will look at this as a threat to regional racing at LRP, not just the NARRC series.

Rather than attempt to answer individual points, I'm going to suggest (suggested earlier by Kathy Barnes at our last NARRC Committee meeting) that we conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting. What must be kept in mind is that the regions need to at least break even on regional racing or they can not justify it to members who are not involved in racing. I have heard that MoHud lost $30,000 on this past weekend. Where do you think this money comes from? Dues won't cover it and you can't expect Solo, Rally and other functions to subsidize racing, even if they could. Remember also that track rental is not the only expense. There is insurance, sanction fees to National, wear and tear on the equipment, worker/participant parties, and so on. If the regions can't manage this financially, they can't run races. If they don't rent the tracks, pay the expenses, etc., there is no racing. Many of you have offered to participate and more of you wil be needed if you believe SCCA regional racing is important. I personally believe this will be a year of significant change for all of us involved in regional racing in the Northeast. Thanks for listening.

RKramden

05-24-2007, 09:12 PM

conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting.[/b]

Problem is that almost the only "drivers" who are there are there because of other interests. People like you, Jack H, etc. who go because of being stewards or on the NARRC committee, etc., not because they care about other driver things at the Mini-Con. There is almost nothing, other than one meeting, that would interest most drivers at these conventions.

Either that, or it is on the "other side of the world". Having the meeting in places like Buffalo is "customer (driver) hostile". It is either fly there or a day out and a day back just to go to a meeting.

It would be like NER hosting the meeting in Kittery, ME. It's in the southern half of the region, after all. :o How many drivers would trek all the way there just for one meeting? How about having the meeting in Bangor, ME? There is still another 250 miles of NER north of there!!! (But I doubt there are many members up that way.) Just about everyone (including NER members) would need to fly in, so you can bet that you won't have painful long discussions with huge groups of people. B)

(And yes, I know that the Mini-Con is in Rocky Hill, CT this year. Kittery is about 3 hours PAST that, and Bangor another 2-3 past that. The end of the region is yet another 4-5 hours PAST THAT.)

p.s. The northern end of my own region is further from my house than Buffalo, and I live just outside of Nashua, New Hampshire.

I'll go, but only because I have family that I can stay with only 15 minutes from the convention hotel.

(And Greg Amy lives even closer....)

D

Dave Zaslow

05-25-2007, 05:08 AM

Butch,

I certainly hope that all racers are aware of the financial responsibilities that a region takes on when they stage a race. I hope that the regions understand the financial and scheduling resources of the racers as well.

Using NARRC as a marketing tool to fill the grids at LRP may or may not prove to have been a viable strategy. As it stands now, only those 120 drivers who ran the MoHud race can earn double points at the NARRC-offs. And then only if they make it to the NNJR and NER events at LRP. As I had to bail on that race for health reasons, is there now an incentive to come to the next LRP race? Do I need an inentive, or should I just go because it will be a race I want to enjoy.

We can try to manipulate demand, but the market will tell us what the supply should be. It will vary from year to year, but our product is also tied to a racetrack that will not allow us to freely respond to that demand with more or less or better dates. Elastic demand and inelastic supply, where have I heard this concept before?

Was NNJR's Pocono event was succesful with 160 entries? Did MoHud have any choice but to take a date that was the nexr weekend? Would it have made a difference if it was NER running that event? (I don't think so) Should regions co-host events to spread the risk?

Perhaps we need an economist/financial/marketer on the Region's scheduling committee.

But what does this have to do with how the NARRC championship is configured? This is what the folks here have not yet put together. They will.

I suggest that rather than trying top get disparate bodies into one spot for a town hall meeting, the NARRC committee set up an online forum via the NESCCA site. Let's tap the talent we have throughout the regions and see what we turn up (or over).

lateapex911

05-25-2007, 11:14 AM

..... I'm going to suggest (suggested earlier by Kathy Barnes at our last NARRC Committee meeting) that we conduct an open "town hall" meeting at the Mini Con in November to address the NARRC Series and the bigger picture of regional racing in the Northeast. In order to make that useful and productive many of you will need to participate both before and during the meeting.

What must be kept in mind is that the regions need to at least break even on regional racing ....... [/b]

I think Butch has touched on that aspect, and certainly, it will be imperitive that people become involved and educated before getting together too hammer out the solution. Some form of web based roundtable would be great, but, it needs to have a good representation from all the players.

gran racing

05-25-2007, 12:33 PM

<Dave's broken record> Make better use of PDXs

For what it's worth, SCDA has a two day HPDE on Friday June 22 & Sat. the 23rd. No entries would be accepted that were post marked prior to 5/15. Within one week (maybe sooner), both days were sold out at $325 per entry, per day.

I'm not criticising any past decisions for event planning, rather making a suggestion for future events. Yeah, I know we have one PDX at NHIS this year, but hopefully we'll see LRP ones in addition to that to help spread the LRP rental fee costs amoung the other numerous benefits it would provide. </Dave's broken record>

RSTPerformance

05-25-2007, 01:15 PM

Should regions co-host events to spread the risk?

Perhaps we need an economist/financial/marketer on the Region's scheduling committee.

I suggest that rather than trying top get disparate bodies into one spot for a town hall meeting, the NARRC committee set up an online forum via the NESCCA site. Let's tap the talent we have throughout the regions and see what we turn up (or over).
[/b]

:023:

Butch-

Using the NARRC series as a way oto try and market the Lime Rock events failed (IMO), I hope that it does not put any regions under. The thing that people like you (and others whom run the regions) need to understand is that the customers (drivers/crew and probably a lot of workers) don't care what region hosts events. For this reason alone any financial analysis would probably support the idea of co-hosting events or eliminating the need for so many regions in such a small area. I would hate to see regions disapear but I do think that it is time to re-evaluate the way we share our resources (people, $$$, and track dates).

I certainly hope that you take this as an open minded review and not as an insult. I havn't ment in any of my posts to insult any regions/people, but I certainly am not currently a happy member of SCCA.

Raymond

gran racing

05-25-2007, 01:56 PM

or eliminating the need for so many regions in such a small area. [/b]

That's what I said before but the reaction by a few was not so popular. Out in some of the Western regions, they have been successful with co-hosting events.

I do really, really like the idea of hosing some of the meetings online. There are plenty of programs out there to facilitate this and is would make it easier for more people to become involved.

lateapex911

05-25-2007, 07:22 PM

That's what I said before but the reaction by a few was not so popular. Out in some of the Western regions, they have been successful with co-hosting events.

I do really, really like the idea of hosing some of the meetings online. There are plenty of programs out there to facilitate this and is would make it easier for more people to become involved. [/b]

Hosting them would be cool too....

;)

gran racing

05-25-2007, 07:27 PM

Would it be possible to sub-rent a day at LRP? Meaning, sell it to SCDA or another HPDE group to help with the rental fee costs.

RKramden

05-25-2007, 10:30 PM

gran racing

05-26-2007, 07:00 AM

I can't say I'm not too surprised. Dave, you know the NHIS numbers for various club compared to LRP just as well as I do.

I'll see you on that Tuesday. :D

JLawton

05-29-2007, 01:20 PM

What about doing Pro IT races like they do in other regions? What would be the benefits and draw backs?

benspeed

05-29-2007, 02:27 PM

Mr. Lawton has a very good suggestion here. The OMP challenge series at LRP was well attended and had full grids. We should really consider this - make a track championship/pro series at LRP for the IT cars (and other full[u] race classes) which also pay out regional and NARRC points. People would feel less put out by the higher fees to run a pro race, win a real trophy and get some $$ and prizes. The track could then sell tickets and concessions and actually market the series to to local fans.

Problem is this would be very contingent on partnership from LRP management and to date they have demonstrated such lack of vision and poor marketing I doubt they could pull it off. We as a club don't have the marketing staff to round up the sponsors and contingency prizes - the track would need to do that IMO. And they should do that work since they keep the $$ on a good day and pay the losses on a bad day. Any track promoter worth their salt does this work in circle track. Does LRP have a dedicated Full Time marketer/promoter?

Ben

lateapex911

05-29-2007, 06:34 PM

The OMP challenge reffered to was started in the early 90s, either 92 or 93. I was in the first one, finished 5th, and won, $88, LOL. (Which, up to last years ARRC was my biggest payday in racing) I think Kurt Weiss won it, (you' probably recognize the name, he chaired the CRB for a few years. Wilson Wright (you've heard of him too, he's won the Runoffs multiple times) made an awesome run in his orange RX-2.

It was at the end of the day, and it was called the "Mini Stock Challenge", for ITA and or ITC cars, I think, as there was a ton of ITC cars at the time..

I can't remember if it was the support race for the NACAR Busch race that year, but if not, it became that shortly thereafter, and was at the mercy of the NASCAR organizers. One year it was abbreviated because of the length of the NASCAR event.

Peter Roberts was very involved, and i think largely responsible for getting us "In". Soon it became an ITA and ITS event, and the "challenge" aspect was added, which included two other races. The final race was the premier event though, as it was one of the NASCAR support events, and we lowly IT'ers loved the chance to run in front of a crowd, even if was a dwindling crowd, LOL. IIRC, Wilson Wright broiught out his seldom used ITS RX-7 one year and took the show.

But I remember hearing complaints from Lime Rock that the cars were shoddy, old, and we weren't very "professional" appearing. They worried it hurt the show. I thought the racing was GREAT!

It seemed to me that the dealing with Lime Rock was always tenious, and it got tiring, for volunteers like Peter. And I think Lime Rock decided Spec Miatas would put on a better show.

So, if any series is to hinge on Lime Rocks desire to "promote" it, I'm afraid we're in for a long uphill climb...

I always thought we'd be the perfect group to have at a big event like the NASCAR race, as Lime Rock could create any form of race they wanted for the fans... Standing starts? Half way yellow flag with a 5 car inversion at the front? And......if it rained, we could run while the fans sat out the delay! I know I'd bring rain tires and run two or three races while they waited for good conditions, LOL.

But Lime Rock wants bigger things..

Eric Parham

05-29-2007, 11:32 PM

JLawton

05-30-2007, 07:10 AM

My first race after getting a novice permit was the Import Challenge......Man, did I get my a$$ kicked!!

But I remeber the last one, at LEAST a dozen people who watched all said we put on the best show of the weekend!!

I'm sure there is new management there and have forgotten the "not so nice" cars. We should give it a try.

lateapex911

05-30-2007, 09:34 AM

Problem is, the "new" management seems to be decidedly less SCCA interested/friendly than the old, and by a wide margin. Feel free to head this up though. Call Serge and see what he thinks, and get the contact info. But make sure you go through the right channels, as negotiations with management seem to be tricky, at best. (To my eye, but I have no inside knowledge)

ITB40

05-30-2007, 10:30 AM

Well that generated some good ideas. Thanks to all that responded. I think everything should be on the table in these discussions. We have seen smaller entries at most events this year, some of which can be blamed on increased gas cost, poor economy, higher entry fees or whatever, but the real concern for me is if the reason is because of a general lack interest. Has our form of racing become stale? The idea behind a Regional race series (NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, MARRS, etc.) is to generate interest and participation. That doesn't seem to be working these days. Why? Too many different series? Too much traveling?

Some ideas that have been floated sound great, like the "Pro IT" mentioned earlier. It was fun and racing on the Busch weekend was great. (I remember one year it rained, so they put the IT group on the track and our race was on. I was acting as a spotter for the TV guys on a tower on the main straight (broken car) and could watch the race all around the track. It was awesome. The Busch thing was finally cancelled and the TV folks gave consideration to televising the IT race instead. They decided against it because they thought it would "make the NASCAR guys look like wimps".) Another idea is to limit the number of classes running in order to boost track time. Say only the top 12 classes or so in participation the year before. I think the early NESCCA series ran something like that when Oscar first suggested it. The idea is to have fewer run groups and longer sessions. As ITS and ITA drivers that idea seems great, but I think the ITC and maybe the ITB drivers might not think so. I believe this is what NASA and others are doing to boost the track time and give you more for your money. Should we consider something like that?

Bottom line is we need the drivers to organize into a group to discuss and then suggest changes. Regions can't run races without drivers, but keep in mind, the Regions can't run races without tracks and that requires rentals and other expenses. If the Regions can't pay, they can't rent the tracks and there are no races. Just so everyone is on the same page, it costs $53,000 to rent Lime Rock for an unmuffled weekend. Add to that about $15,000 for the sanction fee, insurance, NARRC fee, NYSRRC fee, end-of-day parties, and the rest. At a $300 entry fee a Region needs 227 entries just to break even. It doesn't cover the cost of replacing equipment (radios, fire bottles, computers for T&S, etc.) which occasionally need replacing. More entries would result in lower entry fees to reach break even and lower entries (what the Regions have faced in the last several years) means higher entry fees. There is a law of diminishing returns here so that the loud time available/maximum cars on track(38)/maximum number of groups (maybe 8) generally yields a maximum entry of about 300 cars. Even with great participation, rising track costs have to result in higher entry fees.

I will take any suggestions the group makes to the NARRC committee or anyone else to get this situation turned around. Thanks.

Butch O'Connor

Dave Zaslow

05-31-2007, 06:33 AM

Butch,

There are a number of topics covered in this thread that need to be broken down onto discreet items. Here are a few:

1- What should the NARRC championship consist of?

Number of NARRC events?

How are points awarded (look at NARRC vs. NYSSRC vs. MARRS rules for example)?

What tracks are included?

Mandatory races by region or by track?

Double points for the NARRC-offs?

2- How do the regions get racers to the track?

Restricted regionals for the most subscribed groups?

Longer races?

One day races?

Less races?

Prizes other than trophies?

Don't schedule races two weeks in a row even if that means losing a date at a track?

3- How do regions insure that putting on an event at a high cost track makes enough money not to put them into financial jeopardy?

Share the risk for certain dates/tracks?

Fight like cats and dogs for the dates and the rules?

Move the races to Memphis Motorsports Park and save $40K+ per weekend ;-)?

Perhaps we can contact our esteemed webmaster to make this a sub-forum in the Northeast section and start the conversation going. Of course we need to do the same with all of the special interest forums such as prod, miata, formula, etc. It may be better to have NNJR's or NESSCA highly esteemed webmasters set this up so we have one forum for all of those interested parties, racers and organizers, without looking at 12 different places for ideas. Then we should make sure their is a direct link from all of the interest groups to that forum.

Dave Zaslow

ITB40

05-31-2007, 09:16 AM

gran racing

05-31-2007, 10:21 AM

Excellent idea Butch!!!!

RKramden

05-31-2007, 11:58 AM

Hi Dave,

We are going to try to get either the NESCCA or NNJR website set up to host an all group (IT, SM, and all the rest) board. Your post of questions is an excellent starting point. Darrell Anthony (DA to most of us) the current RE of NNJR, has offered to host the "town hall" meeting at LRP during our regional there in August. I think it gives us the best chance to get the most drivers involved and enough time to discuss the issues. The proposal has been sent to the NARRC committee so stay tuned.

Butch
[/b]

Butch,

There are a few other races at LRP between now an August. You could probably do more than one meeting and hit a larger group of people. Or, make it class specific, e.g. Formula cars once, IT another, Miata at a third.
If too many people go, you might not be able to deal with everything at once, or some people may feel disenfranchised by the other vocal complainers there.

In any case, you need to advertise the meetings starting at NER's DS/regional so people will know to allow time to go to it, if they are interested.

Also, Maybe the mods of this forum, or the folks at SCCA will host a NARRC specific area for you under the Northeast area that each has. It's probably less work than having DA set it up.

Dave Zaslow

05-31-2007, 01:18 PM

Butch,

Make sure these town hall meetings are after the beer party (hic)

DZ

kipv

05-31-2007, 08:40 PM

Why not have an input meeting during lunchtime at a number of the upcoming NARRC events? The upcoming NHIS event would also be a great time to gather input. I have raced in a number of these "championship" series and I can tell you that recognition leads to more participation. Podium celebrations (they don't need to be elaborate) and timely website points updates help a great deal. Also the very popular SARRC series learned years ago that less required events actually leads to improved participation. Just examine the demise of the ECR series and you will understand why. Both series begin with a lot of interest but as the season progresses and many of the ECR participants begin to realize that they don't have a shot at placing well in the points series they simply quit. The SARRC series only uses the best 6 of approx. 20 races. Last year numerous people in each class entered the final race with a good chance of finishing well in the series. Those who do well are generally the ones who raced the most during the season (imagine that). Also many times those who are leading the series will attend events just to prevent challengers from collecting uncontested points. Whenever a series requires participation in a specific event in order to remain relavent in a points chase they had better realize that they are by definition writing off some of the participants in the remainder of the series.

zchris

05-31-2007, 10:00 PM

Why are poeple not getting out to race? Well the oil companies are holding us hostage. Then Lime Rock decided to hold us hostage. And now the NARRC committee is holding us hostige if we want NARRC points. So if I refuse to be held hostage to go to Lime Rock then the series has no meaning to me any longer. Well that was a no brainer. And whos brilliant idea was it to force LR down our throats. By the way, I do not run the NARRC series. But if I had wanted to, they sure found a way to piss me off.
Chris Howard

gran racing

06-01-2007, 08:17 AM

Those are things we have less control over Chris. Yeah I know, we can consume less gas and do our parts to get oil / gas prices reduced....

Dave put together a very nice list of things to be considered. I really don't have much to offer with your group one items since I don't run a series, just look for events I'd like to be a part of.

I do think it would be cool to have some different (more unusual) types of races like we've discussed in the past, but never pushed for. Inverting some of the grid, manditory pit stop during a race, standing start; just something a bit different.

Doing the meetings during the lunch hour would be ideal if it's going to happen at the track. I do not think you'd get the turnout that we'd be looking for if done after the event.

RKramden

06-01-2007, 02:28 PM

Doing the meetings during the lunch hour would be ideal if it's going to happen at the track. I do not think you'd get the turnout that we'd be looking for if done after the event.
[/b]

Another thing to consider is WHERE the meetings are held.

If you want to reach the largest number of NARRC drivers, then skip Lime Rock and head to NHIS. It is a fact that in the recent past, over 3/4ths of the NARRC drivers are from NER. So, head to where you will find the majority of the drivers in the series. Polling drivers at Lime Rock will certainly skew the results of the poll, making it of little value. Well intended, but not the best data.

Asking the people who are not pissed off at LRP and still going to their events (or are going because they don't have much of another choice) isn't going to tell you much about the other drivers who are not there. (or why the are not there)

It's kind of like running a poll outside the Republican convention and asking the people if they are going to vote Republican in the next election.

Well, Duh....

Dave Zaslow

06-02-2007, 06:31 AM

Dave L,

I agree that these forums should be held at as many venues as possible, but I note that very few of those running the NARRC races went to all three venues to pick up the 8 bonus points.

People are generally busy during an event. The neutral ground of cyberspace may be the most apprpriate venue for this discourse. Perhaps the at-track gatherings should be used to encourage those interested to come to the forum to lend their ideas. I would encourage transcripts from the at-track discussion to be published on the forum.

Does anyone have a list of all of the special interest group sites that we need to reach out to?

SRF ?
Prod prodracing.com
IT improvedtouring.com
SM specmiata.com
CSR/DSR ?
Formula ?
SP ?
SS ?
Touring ?
Prepared ?

Plus each regions website and the NESSCA website.

Dave Z

dtanthon

06-02-2007, 09:57 AM

The current NARRC homepage is - http://www.scca-nnjr.org/NNJR_Race/NARRC.shtml
We (Richard Welty and I) are in the process of including a bulletin board that will look like the one used on this site.

All the contact information is available on the current website, has any one contacted those individuals that volunteered that sit on this committee? My email must be faulty because I figured it would be overflowing with suggestions for 2008 NARRC improvements and other constructive comments......

One comment I saw that I liked was the restricted regional, these are possible at Lime Rock or Pocono, but the expenses are covered by entry fees and sponsorship dollars. Do the math and you can figure what the entry fee will be with a lower car count.

Contact your regions NARRC representative or the entire voting committee with your suggestions. Your RE and Driver's rep are your voice into the NARRC committee, get involved with your series.

NNJR is hosting the NARRC August regional races at Lime Rock, on Friday night we hope to host a 'NARRC Town Hall' meeting to accept suggestions and answer questions face to face, details to follow (suggestions welcome). Ask NER to host one at NHIS.

Thanks,
Darrell Anthony
NNJR-RE (for a few more months)
2006-2007 NNJR NARRC Committee representative
#27 GTL
Flagger / Starter / Race Chairman / Registration / Equipment / Logistics
Asst NNJR webmaster

Andy Bettencourt

06-02-2007, 11:00 AM

Please have these meetings AND PLEASE put the announcement in the supps. This way nobody will have an excuse for not knowing it was going on.

RKramden

06-02-2007, 12:47 PM

Please have these meetings AND PLEASE put the announcement in the supps. This way nobody will have an excuse for not knowing it was going on.
[/b]
Andy,

First, that makes an assumption the people will actually read the supps. History has shown that this is not a good plan. Also, the meeting shouldn't be part of the official rules for the event. Posters at Registration, a separate handout, and getting registrars to say something would work MUCH better.

I think that everyone agrees that the meetings are needed. There is a certain dynamic of face to face interaction and brainstorming that suffers on a BBS. I think, however, that Dave Z and I and others agree that holding these meetings at only LRP is not a good sample of the drivers. It needs to be done at every track possible. If Butch wants to get the feedback, then he needs to haul up to NHIS for Pig Roast, Cheap Date, or RAL weekend.

Contact your regions NARRC representative or the entire voting committee with your suggestions. Your RE and Driver's rep are your voice into the NARRC committee, get involved with your series.
[/b]
DA,

The issue that people seem to have is that the NARRC committee acts to represent the interests of the regions, not the NARRC series, nor the drivers. And that is the part that is bass ackwards. :(

RKramden

06-02-2007, 04:22 PM

OK, here is some DATA.

For 2006, I counted drivers that are listed in the NARRC points. It was a straight driver count, not weighted by number of entry fees paid. Sloppy job, I may have missed a few. But, what the heck, there were almost 900 different drivers listed.

For the 4 "NARRC" regions, the numbers were: NER 473 70%
NY 76 11%
NNJ 55 8%
MoHud 67 10%
In addition, there were 207 drivers from "other" regions, with the vast preponderance running only the race at the Glen. In fact, the SRF race was very skewed, as there was a pro SRF race there the same weekend, and a number of drivers were from places like Oregon, Colorado, and Atlanta. Not exactly running for the NARRC championship.

Update:

OK, I picked 5 classes, SM, SSM, ITS, ITA and ITB. Picked because they are "bigger" classes, but without looking at the points listings.

Then I counted up the number of entries for the top 10 drivers from each class. A total of 415 entry fees paid.

Results are: NER 328 79%
NY 47 11%
NNJ 0 0%
MoHud 40 10%

Andy Bettencourt

06-02-2007, 10:02 PM

bg43wex

06-04-2007, 01:54 PM

Dave, I said put it in the supps because you are required to read them per the rules. If you don't, tough rocks. They don't have to be part of the 'rules' per se, just information in a spot everyone is required to look. Maybe it's against protocal to do so but it leaves no excuses IMHO.
[/b]

Andy, the rules are the rules, not a "Per Se" version.

A couple of years ago we really tried hard to get information out, the Web, PitTalk, handouts everytjing we could think of, we did get some input but I would say less than 1% return on the #'s we contacted.

If you can find an inexpensive way to get your message out I am sure some people will show. But I highly doubt the turnout will be many.

Happy competitors don't care, now I'm not saying everybody who runs an event is happy about everything that happens on a given weekend, but most are as evident by the lack of written or phone complaints that are recieved.

I really feel that this group needs to take a step back and help figure a way out for MoHud, NNJR and NYR to stay racing regions.

All it will take for a region to go under is lose 30 or 40k at LRP (oop's this already happened). and if it happens twice how can they stay in business.

The NARRC committee is a group of represntatives who meet in order to direct a "RACE SERIES", they do not run events, they don't rent tracks, set entry fee's, pay for food, insurance or any of they other hundred things we pay for.

Your regions need you to come up with ways to draw competitors to the tracks and keep fee's down.

I dare you to ask around and find out how many people really care about the NARRC series, or any series for that matter, most just want to race and have a chance to finish 1st just once.

come up with some novelty events, Enduro's, PDX's Team challenges, ? sponsored/Pro race, some sort of class or group festival.

I would caution you on the back lash of a restricted regional, if you want to hear mad competitors just tell an F Vee or SRF or GT1 driver sorry you can't run this weekend. aren't we the club that let's everyone race?

Here's an idea to help a region hedge it's bet on a race weekend, everyone must Pre Pay for the event and if you cancel within say 7-8 days of the weekend you only gey 1/2 your entry back. if you late enter a real late fee maybe $100.00 would be the fine, this would help with the entrants who no show because of bad weather (which has been as many as 40% at some events).

And one last off the top of my head thought. MoHud lost X$ at their event what if they can't pay the NARRC fee? the rent to LRP is first and on down the line. What will you do?

brian

JLawton

06-04-2007, 04:47 PM

just tell an F Vee or SRF or GT1 driver sorry you can't run this weekend. aren't we the club that let's everyone race?

[/b]

Hmmmm, just like national races?? ;)

GregM

06-04-2007, 05:03 PM

I don't even no where to start. I don't really care about the points. What I do care about is SCCA racing and not wanting to lose anymore race dates at ANY track.

We lost the 2nd National at LRP for the 4th of July Mosport race. I really wanted Mosport to be back on the schedule, but without losing a date. How many will attend that race weekend traveling outside the country ? We will have to wait to see . Its costs way more to haul there so how will that outway the LRP entry fee. I am not going to travel out of OUR country on a National holiday.

Losing the 4th of July National date was terrible. My first race I ever attended was LRP in 1977. If ALMS or Grand Am pack their bags for another track maybe we get the date back. But what are the odds of that happening?

Open track dates are easier for the tracks to run = make more money. We ( racers) cannot afford to lose race dates to open track events.

We have to find a way to make the race dates financially viable. Period. Maybe if we create an average entry fee across the board ?

I will race anywhere anytime so long as I have a car running. Just don't give up anymore dates anywhere. We will NEVER get them back.
I am selling my T2 car. I will be racing more regionals again. Count my entry in for LRP and Pocono.

See you at the track.................

RKramden

06-04-2007, 07:58 PM

The NARRC committee is a group of representatives who meet in order to direct a "RACE SERIES", they do not run events, they don't rent tracks, set entry fee's, pay for food, insurance or any of they other hundred things we pay for.

Your regions need you to come up with ways to draw competitors to the tracks and keep fee's down.
...
And one last off the top of my head thought. MoHud lost X$ at their event what if they can't pay the NARRC fee? the rent to LRP is first and on down the line. What will you do?
[/b]

So maybe the NARRC committee needs to stop acting like they run the regions and start acting like they run a series. I never thought having the RE of a region being on the NARRC committee was a good idea. Way too many conflicts of interest.

These folks came up with the stupid "Pocono" rule to try to force drivers to that track, then this latest rule to force drivers to go to Lime Rock. Next we are going to see a NHIS rule (no points from NHIS unless you run there at least 4 race weekends a year :D ) and then a Glen rule, 20 bonus points if you run 4 tracks in one year. :eclipsee_steering:

A bunch of "special interest" rules made by the alleged series committee for the benefit of some of the regions.

The only thing I can assure you is that next year the rules will be different yet again. :(

So, how about this as a straw man proposal:

Make NARRC act a lot more like NASCAR. If NARRC is strong enough as a championship series, then this should work.

The NARRC committee has: one NON-RE rep from each region that runs a NARRC race (in the previous year) and
some number of DRIVERS that ran in one or more NARRC races the previous year. (I have no clue HOW they get selected, yet, but they have to be willing.)
Committee moderator (like what Dave Panas does now)
Points keeper
preferred number czar
Treasurer
Flag/trophy/champagne person
One person could do one or more of the last 5 things.

Let each region give out the trophies at their meeting, as they see fit. Loose the poorly attended NARRC dinners that some regions forget to even have.

Regions pay the estimated NARRC fee up front. All fees are for the WEEKEND. X dollars per car for a single,
1.5X dollars per car for a double race weekend,
2X dollars per car for a double points weekend.

With the current fees, regions must pre-pay $1,000, $1,500, or $2,000 to NARRC to call their race a NARRC race. NARRC sends a bill or refund if the entry is above or below the estimated amount. If you get rid of the often small and token checks, then make it $300, $450 and $600.

Option: for an extra $200, $300, $400, each class with 10 or more entries (qualify/race) gets Champagne in the winners circle, pictures in the NARRC news letter, etc.
you get a really nice full sized checkered flag for your first ever NARRC win, something you can mount on the wall.
And no, Andy won't get one because he already won a NARRC race. So did Greg. The NARRC group could SELL them a flag (along with all the other past winners), however, if they really wanted one.

The NARRC group promotes the series, the regions promote and run the races.

Make the series act like a real series, getting rid of all the special rules that either hurt or help various tracks.

Get the series out of the business of promoting races put on by specific regions.

Andy Bettencourt

06-04-2007, 07:59 PM

Hey Greg - if you want to race at LRP on the 4th of July, you can! It's just a Regional this year.

As far as your other comments, while your desires are the same as ours, what are wee to do? The track fees are such that Regions need to charge more money - money that not a lot of people are willing to pay - so events lose money...money that can sink Regions in one fell swoop. So what is the solution? LRP may be pricing the SCCA right out of the game and there is nothing we can do about it.

GregM

06-04-2007, 09:11 PM

Andy,
I am obviously a big Lime Rock supporter. Hell I am just some couple of hundred of feet away. I have raced under many sanctioning bodies. I do everything I can to support SCCA racing ( I have asked to help get licensed to help do annual tech to help the spring wait lines at the track. Nobody has ever taken me up on it and I am down the block every weekend)

I am just very concerned over us all losing races because we currently think the fee's are too high. What happens when " open " track clubs are willing to pay more when we ( SCCA racers) aren't ???

Many of us started as open trackers ( PDA, SCDA etc.) then we did time trails ( EMRA, COM etc. ) then we went on to race. What I am sure we have all seen is a sudden surge membership / entries in " open " track events. This should concern us all. I instructed for many years with different clubs. What I have also seen is a change in people wanting to get " signed off" over the years. Way back in the early 90's most people really wanted to learn, but thats another story.................... I do see the wreckers leaving LRP more and more with wrecked cars after events while sitting up on the hill overlooking Lime Rock Road................

Maybe we ( SCCA members / the CLUB ) need to hire an outside agency to help to find a better way to run the business ( everyday SCCA Club operations ) to help make our regions more financially viable ?? This takes spending some money but maybe if we find the right consultants we can make a real change for the better. Just look at the money the Club makes and tell me that they can't afford to help the Region's better organize and run themselves ? Why are we loaning all that money to Pro when we need to take care of ourselves and help the Club GRO ????????? Nasa grows support , makes money and what do we do ?

ner88

06-05-2007, 12:16 PM

gran racing

06-05-2007, 12:39 PM

The question is "who will pay those entry fees"?
I think that question was answered recently at LRP, Not many![/b]

I'm not entirely sure the entry fees is what caused this. I've spoken with a few people who typically only race at LRP, and yes, the entry fee reached a point where it was simply too high for them to justify. At the same point, when I walk around the paddock I see numerous big (expensive) rigs. Is the higher entry fee really what kept them away? Or was it three consecuitive race weekends, and they chose to skip the LRP for various reasons (entry fee may have contributed). I don't know.

lateapex911

06-05-2007, 12:55 PM

Entires seemed down also at NHIS the weekend after.

I think having, what, 3 doubles in a row, one on Mothers Day and one on Memorial Day made for thin entries across the board. Mix in the highest gas prices and the highest entry prices at one track, and the results are understandable.

GregM

06-05-2007, 02:26 PM

Greg
I think any "outside agency" would look at $28,000. per day track rental and say "don't do it".
I also think any track would open up race dates for that kind of money.
The question is "who will pay those entry fees"?
I think that question was answered recently at LRP, Not many!
Jerry
[/b]
I myself was away on a much needed vacation and thats why I missed the last LRP event. I try to make all events there, alway's.

Entry fee's for myself and many of my racing friends is not what affects whether or not we race. Its scheduling. Many of the National's overlap the Regional's and thats generally why I am not there. I have three IT cars and they could and should be at all LRP / Pocono events but if I am at another Northeast race they aren't.
Scheduling weekends back to back for most racers is a problem unless your retired.

Track rental at $28,000 sounds like alot but when you have a 30+ car waiting list and 120 entered cars these " open track" clubs are making money. PDA for example has entry fee's of $250 and $270-295. At $295 thats $35,400 or $7400 profit. They are out to make money not lose it. Open track guy's are paying these fee's so why can't we attract entries ????
The equipement I have been seeing at the track lately tells me there is something else going on. Entry fee's can't be the issue when we have so many BIG rigs at regional's and National's. Fuel prices have also skyrocketed. $9 for 98 octane at NHIS when 25 minutes away at Sunoco 100 octane was $6.69 !!! $7.50 for 100 octane here on Long Island.

lateapex911

06-05-2007, 02:46 PM

Greg, running an open track day and a full contact SCCA race is much different.

First, you aren't seeing the other costs involved, such as sanction fees, insurance, ambulance fees, consumables, mandated catering fees, and so on. Lime Rock won't sign a contract without adding some over the top items the club could bring in much cheaper, such as a keg of beer.

And races need more staff, by far. We have a protest system, and that requires Stewards at the ready. Timing and scoring must be attended to, which requires significant staff and computing gear. And of course, the stations must be manned, with a radio network (with backup gear) and with more than the track day crew numbers.Tech needs to be staffed, with scales and other equipment. And it all needs to get to the track and be stored when not there.

Lime Rock charges PDA, for example, much less than it charges an SCCA Region. All up, a two day regional at Lime Rock costs a region in the neighborhood of $75K. Thats allowing for the extras and some assigned value to things needed by the region to operate. I might be off a bit, but you get the idea.

Track day clubs operate much more leanly, and their costs are much, much lower.

It's really an apple to steak comparision.

. Open track guy's are paying these fee's so why can't we attract entries ????
[/b]

Running a car in a track day is also a far different proposition than a race car. heck, i can jump in my 911, drive it to the track, and run it around, then drive it home...

No trailer..no truck, no tool box, no tthree sets of wheels, no drivers suit, etc.

Simply, racing is a much bigger commitment and endeavor, and the costs reflect that.
When times are lean, the ones who are marginal drop back, but the rich (Big rigs) keep going. But thats often not the numbers the regions need to survive. It is estimated that the MoHud region lost in the $25K range on the last regional. Thats possibly fatal.